Origins: City of New Orleans

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Anglo
Date: 10 May 23 - 01:09 AM

Someone asked whether Steve or Arlo recorded it first. I have Steve's earlier recording on "Gathering at the Earl of Old Town" released
in 1971. As I recall Jack McGann played guitar on that recording.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Neighmond
Date: 09 May 23 - 10:41 PM

I been doing it wrong for my whole life! My old pal Steve stanford always wanted to sing it and we sang : "....passin' trains that have no name, the graveyards full of old brakemen, and the graveyards of the rusted automobiles!"

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 07 May 23 - 12:58 AM

In 1970 The City of New Orleans service was just one year older than Steve Goodman. Different service, same locomotive type: Lyr Add: Texas-1947 (Guy Clark).

Amtrak will probably never have the same huge payroll again but they're still out there.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: meself
Date: 02 May 23 - 01:53 PM

Okay, I realize I inserted myself into a consideration of the 'railyards full of old Black men' image specifically - no opinion on that, other than that I always assumed it was a realistic detail of "the present times of its songwriting", but I never rode on the City of New Orleans, so don't know.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 02 May 23 - 01:34 PM

CND: Was responding to that last guest post above and when Steve Goodman, train rider, fit in. In that context, the more one dials it back the more Jim Crow the 20th century and the unions will be. That's the history.

Goodman the songwriter could write whatever he thought he could get away with. His old black men were imagined. And listeners are free to imagine and argue anything they please. That's the fun.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: meself
Date: 02 May 23 - 12:01 PM

I always took it as a song very much of 'the present times of its songwriting', but regretting the 'disappearin' of an aspect of American life. The song reflected my own experiences riding on Canadian passenger trains at the time, so, as I say, I didn't take it as about the past. In fact, I'm not even sure I grasped the 'disappearin' part when the song was new; Steve Goodman was more prescient than I was.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: cnd
Date: 02 May 23 - 07:52 AM

Phil, you make some good points, but isn't City of New Orleans a nostalgic, backwards-looking song towards the past of what was, not the present times of its songwriting? I think in particular of the line:

But all the towns and people seem to fade into a bad dream / And the steel rail still ain't heard the news ... / This train has got the disappearin' railroad blues

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 02 May 23 - 01:19 AM

RE: AFL/CIO & American civil rights history. Rosa Parks was '56. By the time Steve Goodman put pen to paper in 1970 the many and universally 'whites only' American railroad union memberships had voted to integrate. With the notable exception of the lone 'blacks only' union, the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters (aka 'Pullmans') who chose instead to disband and merge with the previously integrated Brotherhood Railway Carmen of America (BRCA) when Amtrak reorganized itself and killed off The City of New Orleans route, among others.

And yes, you are reading your colour charts correctly. It had really sucked to be brown, yellow, red, indeterminate or purple polka dotted and wanting to work on the railroad for a living.

By 1970 American freight yards were sterile, lifeless, robotic, remote-controlled no-man-lands. The laid off/out-of-work black porters, of which there were many, would be at the union hall, or beer joint, downtown.

Steve Goodman wrote a popular song… not American history.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 May 23 - 11:20 PM

Richard Leonard's Rail Archive has a lot of technical stuff and a lot of lore. It doesn't have the slur that a troll posted (now deleted) but it will offer possible answers.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 01:06 AM

Old post, but don't white wash history. You do no one a favor.

The song is about who made the railroad possible,conductors engineers, etc, an institution, that was fading into memory.

But was, is the heart and soul of America being forgotten, much like those old black men in passing behind the train as it travels on.

It's not racist,just stating an observation of the era, old black men in rail yards.

Southern railroads eagerly hire black workers after the Civil War because they could pay them less than white workers.

Blacks were responsible for the Lion's share of the southern rail built and since they had experience laying rail, rail maintenance crew's were black.

In a heavly railed train yard you would have seen blacks fixing rail, switches.

Old black men, more of a reference to worn out heavy manual labor, price payed, of the men who worked the rail, that built what was there, they were riding on.

It is meant to strike a chord. It got a rise out of you.


Surprised?

You can easily find pictures of the era of all black crew's on hand carts used to transverse long distance, carrying men, rail supplies.

He includes them just as they were. Ranking them all together as equal to the cause.

That said the railroad was one of the few industries that afforded Blacks a middle class lifestyle as a Porter.

Potters were black and a decent job.

Yes it's a haunting song with references to what America was.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 05:41 PM

Anybody who thinks that "black" is a word to avoid and thinks that's a way of not being racist must have a very strange way of thinking.

Not that there's anything wrong with grey in this song. All of us go greyhaired. Before it turns white.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 05:17 PM

It used to be that people would walk out onto the bridges over the rail yards to watch the trains at the yards here in Fort Worth, and I remember watching that activity at home in the Puget Sound area when our house overlooked the waterfront and you could walk to the bluff and look down at the tracks and the activity.

Ever since Sept. 11, 2001, planes and trains took on extra significance, there is more security to get into the terminals (planes) or the operational centers (near me it's BNSF) and people who are observed trying to watch the train activity in those same areas are challenged or run off. It has to do with Homeland Security now. Bummer.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 04:58 PM

I was born in Detroit but grew up in Racine, Wisconsin. We drove back and forth through Chicago to visit family in Detroit, and I was fascinated by the railroad yards and industry that went on for miles south of Chicago. It was mostly freight, but once in a while you'd see a sleek Illinois Central passenger train heading south. I also liked catching sight of a South Shore Line train headed to South Bend. And yes, men would hang out in or near railroad yards and jump a ride on freight train when they wanted to. The men were young and old, black and white. I've known a few...and I'm the father of one.
I had never noticed that some people change the "black" to "grey," but now I've found that John Denver used "black" on one recording and "grey" on another.
Steve Goodman was just a month older than me and we grew up not far from each other. I've always thought his songs told the story of my life. I never met him, but my brother knew him fairly well.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 04:13 PM

Ken: It is easy to tell who the over privileged,Middle to Upper class "white" folk are....

Critical Race Theory point of order: Where does a nice, upper-middle class, Jewish boy from the northside of Chicago fit on your social bell curve? Someone like... apropos absolutely nothing at all... Steve Goodman?

You'll be wrong less often if you just assume half the planet is smarter and nicer than you anyway.

PS: It's a popular song lyric... not security camera footage.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,gopherit
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 11:21 AM

I sing/play this song often with my clawhammer banjo. I have no trouble re-writing words to any folk song, often adding entire verses or changing key words. For instance I change the words on the last line of Virgil Caine to make no doubt that it becomes a firm anti-war song {"War is hell and the Devil can't be beat."}. So here with CONO I use "old gray men" because I remember the bums I saw in the 50s along the railroad tracks who were indeed "old gray men" and of course old black men turn gray too with age. Many songs I pretty much exactly copy a version I like. I see folk songs by their very nature being more fluid than other genres and as such is one reason why I prefer it above all others. So many traditional songs are just fragments of longer versions lost to history and sometimes what survived has disconnects embedded in the story line/lyrics. Folk music is large enough to handle all these versions and opposing opinions. Live and let live!

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 10:59 AM

I don't think so, Ken. The line is "freight yards full of old black men," and I'm sure it refers to employees. Freight yards are no place for families.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Ken
Date: 04 Jun 22 - 10:55 PM

It is easy to tell who the over privileged,Middle to Upper class "white" folk are. Have only seen the heart of America from the interstate or from an airliner at 30,000ft.
The reference to the Old Black Men are just that. They were not railway workers but those that live in the rundown parts of every city and town in every part of the country. Change the words to make it less Offensive? Give me a break!
The sons of Pullman Porters and Engineers refers to the long history of workers that followed in their fathers and grandfathers footsteps. Rail men, Coal miners, Farmers, loggers, etc.
Having grown up in the south side of Detroit(about 8 blocks from Cobo Hall) as a white kid in the All Black part of the city, I can speak first hand on the racism that still flows heavily still.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:42 PM

Denver sang "steel" and "feel". It's on YouTube. So is Goodman's version with "steam" and "dream". I was lucky enough to have heard both artists perform it. I like the "steel/feel" change.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,ralph
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:15 PM

john Denver sang it as written. So much for personal presuppositions

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Phil (no relation)
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 08:36 PM

Stim: IC added coaches to the Panama a couple of years before the takeover. It's been awhile but I recall the gripe having to do mostly with City/State pride and corporate marketing. Seemed like the names got dropped, and picked up again with every local newspaper editorial. Not very deep thinking really. They were all pretty good trains for what you needed.

For me Goodman's "City of New Orleans" was the train Guy Clark watched go by in "Texas 1947." Decades later it's Goodman's "era" passing but from the perspective of the rider. Hardly unique to any one transport. Generations of Morans probably groused about "progress" from the Erie "Cun-all" on down but we still got all those big white "M"s buzzing (diesel-electric) about the waterfronts. Every thing in its time and place.

I traded up my nickels smashed flatter than dimes for Cadwelds®. The best stuff was the narrow gauge steam still hanging on in the sugar and lumber mills (with steam-driven works to go with.) Give a modern-day safety monitor a myocardial infarction but they were glorious.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 01:06 PM

I only rode it once after Amtrak took over - round trip between Batesville, Mississippi and Hammond, Louisiana for my sister's wedding. The train was 4 hours late getting into Batesville. The airline seats, coke machine and plumbing you could be use while in the station were nice, but they didn't have the same charm as the old Illinois Central train.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 12:26 PM

Wikipedia has a nice article on the train, which started service in 1947. I remember seeing Illinois Central trains when I was a kid. They were sleek and beautiful. Can't say Amtrak trains are beautiful, except for perhaps the high-speed Acela that goes along the coast of New England. Because of the aftereffects of Hurricane Katrina, service south of Memphis was cancelled for part of 2005. It's back again. I wanna ride that train, that southbound passenger train...

And by the way, I believe the City of New Orleans has always had diesel locomotives, not steam.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 19 Mar 15 - 11:38 AM

Thanks to whoever posted the link to the Johnny Cash video - I enjoyed that. The airline style seats in the video looked like the Amtrak version of the City of New Orleans. The Illinois Central version had wooden benches that you could flip over to face forward or backwards.

If you got on in Memphis the trick was to get a seat in the club car before the train left. As long as the train was in Tennessee they wouldn't let underage servicemen in the club car, due to liquor laws I suppose. As soon as the train entered Mississippi where, at that time, all liquor was illegal they let everyone into the club car and sold them drinks. If you're breaking the law anyway... Anyway, all the servicemen crowded in and you were glad you had already secured a nice padded seat for the night.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 08:01 PM

'Ride their Daddy's magic carpet made of steam'

Despite the fact that the City of New Orleans began running in 1947, and was always a diesel-hauled train.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Mysha
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 03:50 PM

Hi GMGough,

The rhyme "made of steel" "all they feel" is indeed what Arlo Guthrie sings. It is, however, not how Steve Goodman sang it. His lyrics are "made of steam" "all they dream". It's one of the reasons why I prefer that set of lyrics.

Bye
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 01:51 PM

I bet Johnny got the chords from "Sing Out" mag.
The song appeared in the mag way back when.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 09:19 AM

Cash singing it back in 1974.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 09:07 AM

Wikipedia says; Johnny Cash, with June Carter Cash, included a cover on the 1973 album Johnny Cash and His Woman.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 03:29 AM

sounds more plausable.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 03:23 AM

"Johnny Cash passed on the song because he didn't want to typecast as just a singer of train songs"

Well, Johnny says he passed on the song because he couldn't work out the chords to the song!

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 06:51 PM

Not American or anything…

…but it seems to me that this is a love song to a lost America. Sons of Pullman porters and sons of engineers would be kids getting a ride on their fathers' workplace. Freight yards full of old black men - maybe people got off the train where they worked and had a bit of a social life in the freight yards…

But the heart of this wonderful song is the journey across America in a train that's soon going to cease to be, a train where ordinary people travel and work.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GMGough
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 05:50 PM

I heard "the fields" / "auto-mobiles" rhyme

so in the later verse my lazy listening always thought it was:
made of"steel" / rhythm of the rails is all they "feel"

I was wrong.
not a major mondegreen - but my error.

thanks Brakn

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 05:21 PM

The way I had always heard the story was that Steve tried to pitch the song for Arlo right after a show when Arlo was tired. Arlo asked Steve to buy him a beer, and agreed to listen only until he finished the beer. And the rest is history as they say.

According to Arlo that's not exactly true. What Steve actually asked Arlo to do was pitch the The City of New Orleans to Johnny Cash. Arlo did (hey, it's a great song). Johnny Cash passed on the song because he didn't want to typecast as just a singer of train songs, so Arlo recorded it himself.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 04:25 PM

Phil,

Don't be dismissive of "The Panama Limited", it was one of America's premier luxury trains, which is why AMTRAK kept the name (though, regretably, not the level of service) after it took over the operation of passenger trains in 1971. The Panama was all first class, which meant it was an all-sleeper Pullman train, beginning 1911. It was one of the last three all-sleeper trains running in the 60s, tho I am not sure if it was still an all-sleeper at the time of the takeover.

"The City of New Orleans", by contrast, was an all-coach day train, and was, It was a very popular train, in no small part because it made the trip from Chi to NOLA in just a bit shy of 15hrs. If there were sons of Pullman porters on it, they were likely deadheading, because the City of New Orleans never ran sleeping cars(because it ran is full course during daylight hours).

As a point of information, the Pullman Porters would never have been working in Freight Yards, first, because they were on-board services, second, because they worked in passenger service, not freight.

As for the old, black, men: immediately after the Civil War, rail beds were generally built using convict leasing programs(guess what color the convicts tended to be), and for many years, track maintenance crews and and rail shop workers tended to be black. This changed as the much less labor intensive diesel locomotives replaced steam. The City of New Orleans began running in 1947, and was always diesel train--so by the time of the song, the freight yards wouldn't have been filled with any old men, black or not--

And that, to coin a phrase, is the name of that tune...

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 04:15 PM

Joe: Goodman's eponymous (Buddah, BDS 5096, Goodman) and Denver's Aerie (RCA, LSP-4607, Goodman-Denver) both came out in 1971. Guthrie's Hobo's Lullaby (Reprise, MS 2060, Goodman) officially released in 1972 so which got heard first depended a lot on location and preferences. Goodman was first recorded-published.

Did your brother book any of the mid-70's Texas shows with Steve Martin? If yes, pass along belated thanks and attaboys.

Not sure how much there was to it but in 'Narlins proper the gripe was just about carpetbagging Amtrak dropping the name for "Panama Limited." Mercy, that's at hat, not a train.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,A passenger who refrained
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 04:14 PM

"I know Steve Goodman wrote the song, but who recorded the song first - Steve Goodman or Arlo Guthrie?" asks Mr. Offer.


Good question. The "Steve Goodman" LP with the song was released in 1972. Arlo Guthrie's LP "Hobo's Lullaby" with the song was also released in 1972. I don't know which one was recorded first but I can definitely say that Arlo learned it from Steve.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 03:06 PM

If you have never heard Steve Goodman sing - just go to YouTube and fill yer boots.
Cool Hand Leuk (as he spelled it). Any other guy and you would feel there was a great loss for the man, but he exuded life and loved his art.
My favourite - his rendition of "My Old Man". He meant it.
Enjoy.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 06:44 AM

Steve Goodman sings; Passing towns that have no names.

I imagine that the song is about the decline of long distance train services - replaced by air travel.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Mysha
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 06:06 AM

Hi Tunesmith,

I don't know what exactly you refer to with '"melody change", in Arlo's version'. However, I like that version musically because it has more direction to it. Steve Goodman's version has better lyrics, but the music seems to wander more, which is not something trains are wont to do. His live versions appear to do that a bit less, though; don't why.

But to each his own, I guess. I don't think I could write either version, nor could I play it in either style; I can only enjoy the view as I travel along.


(Brakn: The top one is Arlo Guthrie's version for that part, except for some three mistakes; the bottom is Steve Goodman's version. I'd say most singers-along skip parts in either version; apparently the lyrics aren't as easy as they seem when first heard.)

Bye
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 04:19 AM

Wonderful clip, Brakn. The best version of them all AFAICS - great singing and nice playing. 👍

Very interesting to see a clear Pickguard on the bass-side of the soundhole on that lovely old D-28.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Brakn
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 03:58 AM

You Tube

I saw this Steve Goodman clip before I ever knew Arlo Guthrie had recordd it.

How many get this bit wrong?

And the sons of poor men porters and the sons of engineers
Ride their father's magic carpet made of steel
Mothers with their babes asleep rockin' to that gentle beat
And the rhythm of the rails is all they feel

And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers
Ride their daddy's magic carpet made of steam
And mothers with their babes asleep, go rockin' to the gentle beat
And the rhythm of the rails is all they dream

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 03:22 AM

I know Steve Goodman wrote the song, but who recorded the song first - Steve Goodman or Arlo Guthrie? I heard the Arlo recording long before I even knew who Steve Goodman was. My younger brother was a booking agent and was booking Steve Goodman as an opening act for other performers for years before I ever heard of Steve Goodman. My brother said Steve always stole the show, even though he was usually just the opening act.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 02:23 AM

I heard Steve's - original - version first, and, as a result, the "melody change" in Arlo's version sounds gimmicky and unnecessary!

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Mysha
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 07:00 PM

Hi,

And being a foreigner, and basically hardly having any concept of dividing up the human race, I never had that association. The "Old black" men for me are like the man in Train Time, though that's a small depot, rather than a freight yard. The "Pullman porters" to me are the people who make the train come alive, whereas the engineers make it go. To their sons it's their dads' train, a magical moving platform that makes the landscape move past.

I like Guthrie's version of the melody, BTW, but I prefer the original lyrics.

Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 05:11 PM

Phil: There is no reason to suppose that the old black men were porters; the porters are mentioned independently ("the sons of Pullman porters"). It is not mentioned explicitly that they were all black; I think we are expected to know that.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 03:32 AM

Sing it like ain't nobody listenin'. The usage of "black" at all was fairly recent and short-lived.

If the "old black men" are in the "freight yard" they probably aren't porters but coalers, switchmen and other yard labourers.

Guthrie and others moved away from the death of the steam engine theme (passing trains with no names) that underpinned the Goodman version. It's harder to understand just what is dying out (...their father's magic carpet made of steam.) After all the 'road itself is still going strong as part of the CN line.

One of the Illinois Central's first lawyers was Abe Lincoln and 115 years ago they had an Engineer by name of Casey had a few songs wrote about him too.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Mar 15 - 02:04 AM

Of course, Steve should have simply said "old men", but wait a minute! Why even mention "old"!
And, come to think of it! Why mention "men".
Let's just call them people!
Crazy, isn't it!

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Jerome Clark
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 07:47 PM

The Country Gentlemen's version was learned from John Denver, who also rewrote the last verse in a ham-handed direction. The Gents, who ought to have known better, copied Denver lame-ass word for lame-ass word.

I was acquainted with Steve Goodman when he was playing the folk clubs in Chicago before anybody knew "City of New Orleans" beyond the audiences that sat in front of him when he sang it. He sang "old black men." Anybody who thinks that's racist is an idiot.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 05:28 PM

FWIW, The Country Gentlemen, on their 1973 LP (VMS 73123), made it "gray". There were some other repellent touches on that side of the disc, and I have made a note to skip it.

As BobJovi points out, that is one of two casual mentions of the taboo subject of Race in the song, the other being the Pullman porters. They are part of its charm, for which I have coined the word "illicitude". We also get the paper bag that cheats the club car of its monopoly prices on drinks, the scandalously petty public gambling, and the conductor's mildly naughty song.

I doubt if the poor old men in the freight yards would appreciate being bleached.

Subject: RE: Origins: City of New Orleans
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 13 Mar 15 - 05:18 PM

The three versions I'm familiar with are -
1) that by Steve Goodman, who wrote it, and uses the phrase "old black men"
2) the version by John Denver (the first version I heard) where black is substituted with grey, and
3) probably the most popular version by Arlo Guthrie which also refers to "black" men.

When someone else sings it, you can usually tell wh they nicked it from as the Arlo Guthrie version uses the wrong tune for the phrase "gone 500 miles".