Racist songs .... arghhhh!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:33 PM

The first time I ever heard that line, it was "hippie"... it was several years before it dawned on me that it was originally a racial line.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:10 PM

Right, Kendall. I don't know if that way was original with Cowboy Copas or not, but that's who I first heard sing Alabam' somewhere about 1960 or 61.   I even had the privilege of hearing Cope do it from the stage of the Grand Ol' Opry at the Ryman. Wonderful memories. . .

It wasn't until years later when reissues of the old stuff became more common that I heard Frank Hutchison do Coney Isle. I heard that and thought, Whoaa! Cowboy Copas did a direct "lift" for Alabam'. I have not researched as to whether Coney Isle was original with Hutchison in 1927 or whether he got it from someone else, but he sure didn't sing tramp in Coney Isle.

Point is though, that back at the time we were listening to Copas, we couldn't have known the history of the song, at least most of us couldn't. Our late friend, Dr. Bill McNeil, would certainly have known, but the average person like me had to wait until the reissues came out for the light bulb to come on.

You can hear Hutchison at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdILtctzofs and Copas at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rku2HjUFqU That's especially nice, as it's a great recording of a LIVE performance, not just a recording set to pictures.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 06:13 AM

The way I heard that song was...some folks say that a TRAMP won't steal but I caught three in my corn field I'm on my way, I'm going back to Alabam.
One had a bushel, another had a peck one had a roasting ear tied around his neck I'm on my way...

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:30 PM

right on Ernest.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Ernest
Date: 09 May 09 - 11:23 AM

I still disagree with the thought that it is a direct political statement. If so it would have been contradicted by the line "the gargle dimmed me brain".

And "Spirit of the Gael" while far from being a great song does not say anything negative about Sinti and Roma or Afroamericans (or other groups of people).

The biography part of Pete St. John`s website says that after moving to the USA he

"...became deeply involved in the Peace Movement and International Civil Rights before returning to his native city of Dublin in the late 70's.

Finding the face of his city greatly changed he began writing songs in a very distinctive and unique style depicting the social conditions around him. Redundancy became the core element of his work and the city soon recognised his talent with the major folk artists recording his songs with great success."

This does not sound like it is meant as an direct political statement. To me it sounds mor like the realization that the narrators character does have his prejudices.

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 09 - 10:28 AM

"Spirit of the Gael" is on Pete St John's website.

I've never heard anyone sing it, but he's obviously proud of it or it wouldn't be there. It's a direct political statement, and certainly doesn't suggest St John was using an unreliable narrator in "The Rare Ould Times", as Ernest suggests.

He could have written something with the inclusive spirit of "The Freedom Come-All-Ye" or "Both Sides the Tweed". He chose not to.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: goatfell
Date: 09 May 09 - 10:19 AM

maybe the lassie loved blackmen how is this racist, what you're saying is that the reason she ran off with a student chap who was black is wrong but these are just my thoughts, I'm not being racist I don't really care what colour of skin, or which God you beleive in or not all I'm intrested is what the person is like inside.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Ernest
Date: 09 May 09 - 09:45 AM

I think Catter meself got it right when it comes to the narrators/ singers feelings.

Maybe it is a mistake taking the narrators/singers view for the composers/songwriters. Those ballads often were not freely invented but inspired by a real incident or a person the author had met. In this case it would have been an extenuation leaving out this persons flaws. Certainly the Dublin of the "rare ould times" hasn`t been a purely bucolic place but one where also poverty existed, which often goes together with bad education which often goes together with prejudice like the one shown in the song.

So it might have been honesty instead of racism that made the author include it. It gives the song a realistic edge and keeps it from sentimemtality. Anyone who would have been into writing songs for the fast buck would probably have avoided controversial statements.

Unfortunately I don`t know "Spirit of the Gael". Does it mention Sinti and Roma or Afroamericans at all?

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: meself
Date: 08 May 09 - 06:52 PM

I'm no authority on the man or his songs - but those bits seem very much like what you get in a lot of Irish songs that I've always understood as expressing pride in being Irish as opposed to being English, and/or expressing nationalistic sentiments that only make sense in the context of perceived oppression by another nation. Nationalism, of course, can always slide toward chauvinism.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 09 - 06:32 PM

Look at Pete St John's "Spirit of the Gael" for an explanatory footnote to "The Rare Ould Times".

Apart from the bits that are just plain witless (shamrocks have souls?), the content is unadulterated fascism.

This land is mine
By ancient Royal decree

He can only mean the kings of Ireland, and any decrees they made certainly didn't allocate any land titles to Gypsies or Blacks. He's saying the land of Ireland is not theirs.

And whatever this may be saying through its godawful muddled grammar:

The times have changed, but Irish ways
Are carved in culture's stone
Our Race as one
When peace is won
And no hero stands alone!

you can't read it as being anywhere to the left of Carlyle or Mussolini.

I suspect the guy isn't actually a committed fascist; he realized there was a lucrative market for this sort of garbage in the American plastic-Paddy scene and being entirely devoid of principles he just went for the fast buck.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 08 May 09 - 04:53 PM

I saw a lot of old school racism in southeast Texas in the 1940's and '50'. I know what it is. I've always believed that it was well to remember inappropriate behavior so that you knew what it was when you beheld (or heard of) it. In a historical context, a lot of traditional folk material, along with compositions of a few years back, would not pass the P.C. test of today. That was as far as I took it.

It was mostly an intellectual exercise until I was sitting with my four-year-old grandson last week, reading from an old story book that had been in the family. The first section was from Joel Chandler Harris ("Uncle Remus" stories). I soon realized that the only way I could relate the story was by editing the material as I went, line by line, and altering the minstrel show dialect. When was the last time anyone saw Disney's "Song of the South?" Sometimes, it takes a child to bring it home to you.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: meself
Date: 08 May 09 - 04:48 PM

For Azizi and anyone else who doesn't know the song, give it a listen: Dublin in the Rare Ould Times.

As for the line in contention - I don't think there's any reason to feel that the speaker is a virulent racist - but by the same token, there's no reason to suppose that his attitudes are more liberal than those of any other white working-man of his supposed time and place. I think Azizi is on the money when she says (to paraphrase) that probably the fact that the speaker lost the girl to a Black man is supposed to make the loss sting even more - along with the fact that the Black man was a "student chap". Either characteristic could be a source of some humiliation for the speaker: he loses the girl to a social superior - "a student" - who as such is also less of a "man" - at the same losing her to someone he might have expected to be a social inferior, or at least to be disadvantaged in the competition, not only as a newcomer (presumably), but as a Black man. All of which, to my mind, adds to the strength of the song, rather than detracts from it - however uncomfortable it may or may not make us.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,JedMarum
Date: 08 May 09 - 04:25 PM

agreed, Don.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 May 09 - 02:06 PM

Haven't we discussed this exact line of lyric business about The Rare Ould Times before? I have been to that site several times and never was taken by any reactionary or racist comment.

Pete St.John's history and reputation are without reproach. I believe that the lyric is in St. John's eyes exactly what Azizi is hoping for. Merely a description and not a condemnation.

Don

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 May 09 - 01:03 PM

My apologies for not having followed this thread much, but some of the references to early songs with negative racial implications, sparked thoughts of 'The Fair Ellender' which I ironically rather love for it's sheer abundance of grotesque attitudes belonging to the upper classes in England thus depicted, and so comfortably related in this ballad!: mysogyny, racism, avaricious money grabbing and hypocrisy in spades, it's all there:

Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 May 09 - 12:53 PM

I find it fascinating--and depressing--that folk music as an historical record has almost disappeared, and that the songs and the singers are being viewed through the lens of today's propriety.

The violent anti-immigration attitudes of the late 1800s; the attitudes oif both pro-slavery forces and abolitionists towards blacks (and vice versa); the anti-Irish (and anti-Jewish and anti-Polish) sentiments that were widely held at various times in our country's history---they're all part of that histor, and the songs of those eras provide a dramatic view of the past. When Henry Clay Work wrote his abolitionist song "Year of the Jubilo", he was recounting the feeling of slaves who were in the process of becoming free--changing "darkies" to "workers" misses the whole point.

Obviously, any song reflecting now-discarded vakues should be introduces properly to provide context. But I, for one, think that these songs should be sung.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 09 - 12:31 PM

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree about what the composer might have meant by what he wrote.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 May 09 - 12:22 PM

I'll start with your last comments first. I think it is clear that a black man winning the US Presidency has been an easy thing to imagine since well before the election. I cannot imagine anyone thinking, let alone speaking the words, "it's bad enough that Republican candidate John McCain lost the Presidential campaign, but that he lost to a Black man makes his losing even worse." I'm sure there are some idiots out there like that - but it is certainly a marginal point-of-view. Obama has long been viewed as presidential by mainstream America, politics aside. I truly believe the bulk of his opposition was political NOT racial.

As for the racial content of the statement; I do not agree that we can conclude the composer ever even meant to refer to race. It probably does, but it could have other meanings.

In any case I believe it was meant as negative descriptor. After all, this guy just stole his girl! And if she's run off with a Footballer, or a Car Salesman, or a Tory MP - those would all have negative connotations that the singer was alluding to. We do this all the time in songwriting.

And - the point is that her running off with a man "with skin as black as coal" (whatever he meant by that) had become something was NOT uncommon. That was the point. The guy's world had changed so much that this was not an uncommon thing.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 09 - 10:44 AM

JedMarum, as a result of my posting on Mudcat, I've "met" a number of people who are "more inclined to acting colorless". And I am glad that there are folks who realize that people's skin color should be nothing but a valueless descriptor.

As I indicated, I don't know that "Dublin In The Rare Ould Times" song. I didn't think I was implying that you wrote the song and I didn't know whose website Jack Campin was referring to. I've never visited that website. If that is your website and if indeed there are indeed "a whole bunch of reactionary attitudes [on the writer's website], bordering on fascism", that doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with what they wrote. My apologies if my post conveyed that.

At least by the 18th century, the "skin as black as coal" descriptor was usually considered to be a negative reference. While the singer in that particular song may have been more focused on the girl that broke his heart, I'm still not convinced that that "black as the coal" phrase was meant to be just a mere informational descriptor. You suggested that that phrase was similar to the singer noting that "she ran off with a football player" or "She married a Tory MP" or "They drove off in their Range Rover". Pardon me if I still doubt that-unless those descriptors are meant to convey some information that is not only something extraordinary, but also something that has a negative connotation.

In other words, not only do I think that the woman running off with a man who was Black was an extraordinary happening, but I think that it is possible that the man being Black could be considered by some folks hearing (reading) this song as a circumstance that made the girl's running off even worse than it would otherwise have been.

My statements shouldn't be construed to mean that I think that the composer of that song was a racist. Perhaps the composer was just capturing a sentiment that made the woman's breaking up with the singer even more dramatic than it would had been if she left him for another White man.

It's true that you can't always interpret history using contemporary attitudes (and I'm assuming that this song is old). However, in my opinion, a comparable contemporary attitude is that held by those White people who have opined that it's bad enough that Republican candidate John McCain lost the Presidential campaign, but that he lost to a Black man makes his losing even worse.

Most Mudcatters may not think this way, but do you doubt that there are some folks who do think this way?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 May 09 - 09:25 AM

Azizi - I'm more inclined to acting colorless, as you suggest but I didn't wrote the song. I am certain that the singer of the song is purposely denoting the color of young man who stole his girlfriend from him in the same way I might say, "She ran off with a football player" or "She married a Tory MP" or "They drove off in their Range Rover." All comments meant to have rich connotation, but the singer is not focused on the young man. The singer is focused on the girl who broke his heart.

"When he took her off Birmingham
She took away my soul"

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 May 09 - 09:14 AM

Such fascist causes as these:

He was deeply involved in the Peace Movement
Joined the fight for International Civil Rights
Brendan Behan Commemoration Day
Current interest in Anti Drink/Drive movement
Director of the Beaumont Foundation(Diabetes Research)

He has been honored by these organizations:

    * The Irish Republic Music Writers
    * The Irish Association of Songwriters and Composers
    * The U.S. Irish Cultural Society
    * The U.S. Brendan Cup Committee
    * Irish Music Rights Organisation Songwriter of the Year
    * Beaumont Foundation Cultural Award 2000
    * Goal/Rwanda Award
    * The Peace Train '89 Award
    * Omagh Awareness Award
    * Stenaline UK Songwriter of the Decade

You may not like his politics, and you may not like his songs, but claiming reactionary and fascist attitudes from this list of organizations and causes is simply silly.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 May 09 - 08:51 AM

I just went to the website and could not find the comments you describe. Could you post a link to them, please?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 09 - 07:40 AM

With regard to the lines "skin as black as coal" in the song "Dublin In The Rare Ould Times", I'd first like to say that I don't know the song-apart from reading about it on this thread. And I've never heard it sung-which is not surprising since I've never heard many of the Anglo folk songs that are discussed in this forum.

Jack wrote that "There are a whole bunch of reactionary attitudes [on the writer's website], bordering on fascism, which make it quite clear we are to take it exactly as written - black men from Birmingham coming to Dublin are just one of the changes he sees as unwelcome". In support of Jack's comment, I think it is disingenuous to pretend that "skin as black as coal" in that song is a phase that has no other connotations but is merely a descriptor of what the man looked like as an arbitrary phrase like the singer saying "almost as old as me".   

No age jokes please :o)

But seriously, on a number of Mudcat threads and elsewhere I have written that I wish for and work for a time when skin color references are no more than valueless descriptors. But I know and most people would admit that in the USA, and in other nations (such as Ireland), most people are not there yet.

Does that mean that I have the same reaction to a phrase such as "skin as black as coal" as I have to the "n" word (spelled out)? No.

Does that mean that I am suggesting that a song which contains the phrase "skin as black as coal" shouldn't be sung in public for entertainment? No.

Have I suggested that the "n" word should be substituted in songs that include that referent no matter the race of those singing [or rapping] them? Yes.

**

It would be nice if persons who sang "Dublin in the Rare Ould Times" recognized that the race of the person who the singer's lady chose over him is pertinent and wasn't added just as a mere descriptor. To say that the race of the person who won the heart of that lady isn't pertinent in that song is like saying that President Barack Obama's race wasn't pertinent and wasn't raised pro and con as a factor in his campaign. And it's like saying that President Barack Obama's racial background isn't really a factor for a number of people who are opposed to his actions as President.

Saying that race still doesn't matter in the USA and elsewhere is a luxury for those who are not people of color. We [people of color] can tell you in myriad ways how race and ethnicity (in the USA meaning "Latino") are still being used against us as individuals and as members of racial/ethnic groups.

Yet, I'm not sure how a singer could mention the significance of the "skin as black as coal" phrase when singing that Dublin In The Rare Ould Days" song except to preface your performance by saying something like "In this song the composer refers to some changes that he (or she) would prefer not to see in the city he loves. That's his (her) view not mine. I'm sharing the song because it's one I find aesthetically pleasing".

Obviously, that preface is just a suggestion, and I'm not advocating for anyone to use it or anything like it. What I am advocating for is that folks admit that historically race was a factor and race often still is a factor in events and personal interactions.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 09 - 05:29 AM

Jack Campin: Tell us the name of the song. Maybe we'll be able to find it at the Levy collection or one of the similar sites.

"Doctor Darkey", from Beechams Music Portfolio, volume 10 (advertising "Beecham's Patent Pills"). From the cover listing it looks like Beechams published a *lot* of music - 300 titles.

It looks like it was a rewrite of a pre-existing song with a plug for Beechams added at the end. It would be interesting to know if they rewrote all the other songs they published.

[Dublin in the Rare Ould Times}
So I also would like an explanation as to how that song is an attack.

Look at the writer's website. There are a whole bunch of reactionary attitudes there, bordering on fascism, which make it quite clear we are to take it exactly as written - black men from Birmingham coming to Dublin are just one of the changes he sees as unwelcome.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 May 09 - 01:30 AM

What's so bad about a change to "big buck sailor"? Of course, that's unless you like singing "nigger". "ON" is the ryhme that needs to be kept.

Mick, agreed, in the same way MacColl used the same turn of phrase in a song of his.


Barry

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 May 09 - 07:32 PM

well, y'are pretty bub'ly aren't ya?

;-)

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 May 09 - 01:31 PM

Why don't we make a start by eradicating the word "Black" from our joint language altogether,in which case nobody at all could ever be offended by it.We could say "Blank" instead,so giving us ;
Johnny Cash--The Man in Blank
"Goldfinger",starring Honor Blankman
"Take Me Back To The Blank Hills" sung by Doris Day
    "The Blank Shield of Falconworth " (Tony Curtis film)
         "Blank Eyed Susan"
                               And loads more.
    Yellow could be "Jellow" of course :-
         The Jellow Rose of Texas
                         Jellow River
    They Call Me Mellow Jellow
and so on----it's just a thought.
                                  Next time I sing "Johnny Come Down To Hilo", I will,if you like,sing " I never seen the like,since I been born,a big buck FRIGGER with the sea-boots on ",if it will help to avoid an international incident   !!

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:53 PM

Ian Tyson changed just one line of the Border Affair and gave it a different slant:

I ain't seen her since that night,
I can't cross the line, you know.
She was Mex and I was white;
Like as not it's better so.
Yet I've always sort of missed her
Since that last wild night I kissed her;
She stole my heart, left her own
"Adios, mi Corazon"


"She was Mex and I was white" became "Wanted for a gamblin' fight"

I ain't seen her since that night,
I can't cross the line, you know.
Wanted for a gamblin' fight;
Like as not it's better so.
Yet I've always sort of missed her
Since that last wild night I kissed her;
She stole my heart, left her own
"Adios, mi Corazon"

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:00 PM

It seems to me the test is to replace objectionable words with whatever is currently considered the acceptable term. If the meaning of the song still appears racist even without the objectionable words, that's a good sign that it is racist. If not, then the only problem is with the vocabulary.

The difficulty with modernising the language is that you then have to keep on doing it, as the idea of what terms are acceptable changes over time and place. I've made this point before, but when I was growing up it would have been offensive to call someone "black", the acceptable terms were "negro" or "coloured". Now the exact opposite is the case.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: goatfell
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:50 AM

and what is wrong with the word Jew that is what they are they are Jews same as Catholics, Protestants etc. I don't agree by calling somone nigger I find that sort of stuff horrible but these folksongs are a part of history and from a time when people spoke thier minds.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:47 AM

I, like Jed, have sung The Rare Ould Times for years. It is impossible not to in the States. It is my opinion that to ascribe an attack to any part of that song is projecting one's own biases onto the lyric. To me, the use of "skin as black as coal" was simply a descriptor used so he could get the necessary rhyme for "took away my soul".

So I also would like an explanation as to how that song is an attack.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: Lyr Add: ROSA LEE McFALL (Charlie Monroe)
From: pdq
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:25 AM

here is another song in a similar vein...


Rosa Lee McFall ~ Charlie Monroe

Out on the lonely hillside in a cabin low and small
Lived the sweetest rose of color my Rosa Lee McFall

Her eyes were bright and shining and her voice was sweet to me
Knew that I would always love her and I hoped that she loved me

My eyes turned to me, my darlin' and this is what she said:
You know that I would always love you when you and I are wed.

Then God way up in heaven one day for her did call
I lost my bride, oh how I loved her, my Rosa Lee McFall

I searched this wide world over through cities great and small
But I never found another like my Rosa Lee McFall

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:17 AM

Thanks for the info re piker and beaner.
I have heard Romany's referred to as pikies but have no idea why.

Subject: Lyr Add: BORDER AFFAIR / SPANISH IS THE LOVING...
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 May 09 - 10:44 AM

IN 1907 Charles Badger Clark wrote his love song "Border Affair" (also know as "Spanish Is The Loving Tongue" (music by Billy Simon 1925). It's about a cross cultural love affair between a "Tex & a Mex", "Like as not it's better so". The feeling I get is that the affair was ok but the male recognizes (it is sung from the male's point of view) that it's not socially acceptable but that he's also ok with that as an excuse not to pursue the affair into a long lasting relationship but still "pines". But of course we read into any song what we'd like or can. The version I sing is not racist IMHO but lets it be known that racism does play a part in the affair there are stronger versions & versions that leave out the racism altogether

BORDER AFFAIR (also know as SPANISH IS THE LOVING TONGUE)
(Charles Badger Clark, Jr. 1907 & music by Billy Simon 1925)

Spanish is the loving tongue
Soft as music, light as spray;
'Twas a girl I learned it from
Living down Sonora way.
I don't look much like a lover,
Yet I hear her love words over.
Often when I'm all alone
"Mi amor, mi corazon"

On the nights that I would ride
She would listen for my spurs,
Throw them big door open wide,
Shine them laughing eyes of hers.
How my heart would nigh stop beating
When I heard her tender greeting,
Whispered soft for me alone ---
"Mi amor, mi corazon"

Moonlight on the patio,
Old senora nodding near,
Me and Juana talking low
So the Madre couldn't hear.
How the hours would go a-flyin!
And too soon I'd hear her sighin'
In her little sorry tone ---
"Adios, mi corazon."

I ain't seen her since that night,
I can't cross the line, you know.
She was Mex and I was white;
Like as not it's better so.
Yet I've always sort of missed her
Since that last wild night I kissed her;
She stole my heart, left her own
"Adios, mi Corazon"

As to Mitch Miller chaging the line to "the sweetest Rose in Texas", seems idiotic when the song title still remains "The Yellow Rose of Texas". It also seems that in such a loving song of fondness a cross cultural affair may have been more exceptable in the day when the song was sung as contemporary that in our present day of "PC enlightenment", same goes for the above "Border Affair".

Jed, your leaving the song intact with the exception of "Darkie" was the best opition IMHO, I use 'cowboy' or 'soldier' instead of 'fellow', but consider it to be a tender love song. The "Yellow Rose" is a hero to many in that part of the US & why wouldn't she be?

Barry

Barry

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: GUEST,Jim P
Date: 07 May 09 - 05:30 AM

I was actually looking for something else, but found a version of Chinee Bumboatman on YouTube, that contained a final verse newly written, dealing with the subject of this thread:

Additional verse from "hultonclint" on YouTube:

Now some piece man no likee this song
Him talkee it give him offence
But in singin' it I wish no disrespect
To the fine Chinois ladies and gents
There's many a present PC song
That ticks me off far more
So quit suckin' yer thumb
And take it in fun
At least this song isn't a bor- ee-eye-or-ee-eye!

Hitch-ee-come kitch-ee-come, i-yi-yi
Hippie man no likee me
No sabby the value of history
Too much he smokin' pipee, ka-ya.
Too much he smokin' pipee.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 May 09 - 04:03 AM

Partridge gives "piker" as 19 C. slang for a tramp, vagrant; occasionally a Gypsy. Probably originating from turnpike .

Regards

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Melissa
Date: 07 May 09 - 03:11 AM

Nigel:
I've heard "Where are you piking off to?" (where are you going?)
and "..guess I'll head on down the pike" (I'll be leaving now..)

During the US Westward Expansion, Missouri was a favored starting point. People from the east who were heading west would meet in MO, finish gathering supplies from traders, meet their party, get whatever information they could about maps and where to fork off to reach different areas.
Those people would get in their wagons and head west. They'd stay in their wagons, camping to get a little rest for themselves and the beasts (I guess it was probably oxen pulling most of the wagons?)

It seems logical to me that in at least that American usage of 'piker' could easily be related to 'pikeys'..Travellers. They were travelling and living in their wagons--at least until they landed and built a house.

The book I read the 'piker' definition was called "Labels for Locals". I moved recently and most of my stuff is still at my house..including books.
One of these times when I'm at home sorting/pilfering my things, I'll make a point to look more closely at that book to see if there's a more complete entry than I remember.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:19 AM

I have read that 'pikers' are/were Missourians. It had to do with Pike County, wagon trains, westward expansion (maybe gold rush?) type stuff. "Sweet Betsy from Pike" and all that.
If I understand correctly, the negative way of using the word has something to do with being a layabout, avoiding responsibility, not doing your part (this is not a proper definition..just kind of how I understand the word)

Any connection with the modern English usage of Pikeys as a description for 'travelling folk', the etymology given in Urban Dictionary as those who encamped around the 'turnpike'?

Having said 'moden English' usage, I note the first citation above dates it back to the 19th century!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:01 AM

Another idea for acknowledging that parts of a song may be found objectionable is to add ones own, contemporary voice to a commentary that is part of the song. The abrupt shift in voice highlights the historical and not-the-views-of-the-performer tone of the rest of the song. I experimented with that in this recent recording of a song that inevitably raises questions. See the last, new verse. "The Chinee Bumboatman"
Actually, my opinions, on a word by word basis, of what is and isnt objectionable in the song are complex and far too lengthy...so this curt, sung "addendum" obviously cannot to them justice. Its function, rather, is the acknowledgement of "breaking taboo" and that shift in voice I was talking about...I hope

Gibb

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:25 PM

Jack Campin in yur comments about DUBLIN IN THE RARE OULD TIMES you say;

"the narrator attacks one character for being both Black and English and hence not the sort of person who had any business being in Dublin"

Not in the lyrics I've known.

In this song, the singer is bemoaning the signs of change in his city, decrying the loss of the old ways and his inability or lack of interest in moving on in the new world.

I presume the verse you refer to is this one:

I courted Peggy Dignan,
As pretty as you please
A rogue and a child of Mary
From the Rebel Liberties
I lost her to a student chap
With skin as black as coal
When he took her off to Birmingham,
She took away my soul

How is that an attack on anyone? In a song where he's listing the changes to the in world in which he lives, he tells us that the girl he courted ran off with a student, presumably the singer is not a student. He tells us that the student had black skin, presumably that would not have happened in his father's generation, and that they went off to Birmingham. Where is the racial attack?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:44 PM

beaner: a slang term for a Mexican. Comes from their penchant for bean-based food such as chili with beans and re-fried beans.

People who lived in mixed neighborhoods called each other names like "gringo" and "beaner" and kept a smile while doing it. No one was offended.

Now days that could get you killed. Not everything has improved in the last 40 years.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:36 PM

I have no idea.

I live in the sagebrush of northern Nevada, not the troubled land of northern Ireland.

I think usng a pike on someone is rather distaseful no matter how the user justifies it.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Melissa
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:17 PM

PDQ:
So, were the ones doing the piking called 'pikers'?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:14 PM

pike: "...medieval weapon consisting of a spearhead attached to a long pole or pikestaff; superseded by the bayonet..."

Ask an Irishman what "I'll have his head on a pike" means.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Melissa
Date: 06 May 09 - 10:00 PM

Several years ago, there was a flurry of talk about my State Song (Missouri Waltz) being inappropriate and how it was wrong for us to have a state song with offensive words--and each time I heard somebody talking about it, I asked WHAT the offensive words were and/or what was wrong about the song. I couldn't get an answer other than another round of "well..whatever the words are, it's wrong for it to be our State Song!"

So, I started searching around to see if I could find original words. The song is common for fiddlers around here and I was thinking that if it was truly offensive, I probably ought to decide whether it was a song I needed to stop playing. My fiddling was/is bad enough that I didn't figure I needed to also add the offensiveness of playing a Wrong song.

It was hard to find original words. I ended up getting to see them online but it took a few years of sporadic searching for me to chance onto them.

I was relieved to find that the horrible awfulness was dated-sentimental..nostalgic storyline that probably never happened (like a lot of Nostalgia)

I don't remember where I finally found lyrics. If it was Mudcat, it's another reason for me to be appreciative of the stacks of information and knowledge that piles up around here.
If anything I sing/play is going to be censored, I believe I am old enough to be responsible for any Fixes I may do. I'm old enough to know exactly what has been changed in a song and I truly prefer to have a semi-accurate answer when someone says 'You're not supposed to sing that song..it's Wrong and Offensive..and since your words were slightly different, you probably don't even KNOW what the song originally said..hmmph'
I prefer to have an answer when someone says 'Hey, I thought MO Waltz was supposed to be awful?! It wasn't so bad when you sang it..did I miss something?'

My non-invasive 'fix' was that when I sing it, the old folks are humming and I was a child sitting on my mama's knee.
By being able to find it for myself, I also got a chance to re-insert the second part about 'strum strum..' which I had never heard a fiddler play.

It's just one song and I'm just one person so I doubt it has any effect on the Earth's ability to turn on it's axis, but without the ability to find those words for myself, I'd be embarrassed/ashamed/slightly mortified that my State Song was Offensive. It offends ME to be expected to feel ashamed of something without me knowing what's so awful about it. I want to know the history and storylines and I want to digest the information for myself.

Hooray for places like this where folks like me can find old/original words and come to our own conclusions!

*****
Tim Leaning:
I have read that 'pikers' are/were Missourians. It had to do with Pike County, wagon trains, westward expansion (maybe gold rush?) type stuff. "Sweet Betsy from Pike" and all that.
If I understand correctly, the negative way of using the word has something to do with being a layabout, avoiding responsibility, not doing your part (this is not a proper definition..just kind of how I understand the word)

If somebody wants to correct that, I'd be glad to know more. It would be kind of nice to understand why I'm supposed to be offended at hearing the word.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:32 PM

Jack Campin: Tell us the name of the song. Maybe we'll be able to find it at the Levy collection or one of the similar sites.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:27 PM

I have one song sheet I've been sitting on for a long time. It was written as a promotional number for a pharmaceutical company (which still exists) near the beginning of the 20th century. The whole thing is a farrago of racist stereotypes from beginning to end - the worst aspects of the blackface minstrel tradition with essentially zero musical or poetic quality to redeem it.

But it seems to me it ought be more widely known, simply because of what it says about how companies like that promoted their wares.

I still don't like the idea that somebody might pick the thing up as originally intended.

Maybe I ought to upload the scanned image of the music sheets to my site, without transcribing them?

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:23 PM

Ugh!

For the record, I'm aware that my first post to this thread and the comment that I reposted from another Mudcat thread contain mistakes such as words that should have been deleted in a correctly done cut & paste job.

**

Since I'm here, let me mention that with regard to children's playground rhymes-the category of study that I'm most interested in on Mudcat-there are examples of contemporary children's rhymes that mention race and have text that document problems between people of different races. One rhyme that appears to be widely known in the USA among Black girls is this is an updated version of the rhyme "Down Down Baby" also known as "I Like Coffee I Like Tea" Here's a portion of that rhyme:

I like coffee I like tea
I like a Black boy and he like me.
Step back White boy. You don't shine..
I'll get a Black boy to beat your behind.

Down Down Baby-Race in Children's Rhymes

**

There are other contemporary examples of children's rhymes that may appear to mention race but actually the children who chant them don't think of them as referring to race or ethnicity. "Shimmy Shimmy China" is an excerpt of this type of rhyme:

Shimmy Shimmy China
I know karate.
Shimmy Shimmy China
I can shake in my body.

-snip-

The children who chant this rhyme consider "China" to be a girl's name and not the name of that Asian nation or a referent for people of Chinese ancestry. This example is a good reminder for me that sometimes adults interpret children's rhymes and songs differently than adults do.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 06 May 09 - 07:48 PM

For the record, I'm aware that my first post to this thread and the comment that I reposted from another Mudcat thread contains mistakes such as words that should have been deleted in a correctly done cut & paste job.

Especially when it comes to emotionally charged subjects-such as this one is for me-I try to carefully read my posts before hitting the submit button. But if I think too much about these kinds of posts, I won't post them. So although I re-read what I wrote (the new portion of this comment), and although I caught some errors and made changes in this post, I obviously didn't catch all of my errors.

I apologize about that.

Subject: RE: Racist songs .... arghhhh!
From: Azizi
Date: 06 May 09 - 07:23 PM

One aspect of this discussion that I've not read yet is that some people may have a nostalgic feeling for a song or rhyme that is racially and/or culturally insensitive because they have good memories of that learning that song from a loved one. They then pass that song on to their children and grandchildren. But maybe at some point that tradition ends because those children and grandchildren recognize that the song contains words that are no longer acceptable or its message is no longer acceptable.

For example, I posted to that thread four times. Two times I focused on an analysis of some of the words of that rhyme and how I thought they might be the source of a contemporary children's rhyme I had collected. One time I welcomed a guest to that discussion and to this forum. And the fourth time I wrote this post:

thread.cfm?threadid=6971

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great man...
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:53 AM

I'd like to make some random comments about this rhyme:

From reading the comments posted on this thread, it appears that few people have included in their posts any acknowledgement of the fact that the words of "Once In China There Lived A Great Man" ridicules Chinese people. One poster who did recognize this was GUEST,Darren ex-West Bromwich; 18 Jan 08 - 11:05 PM. Darren posted this comment:

"My Dad taught this one to me and his Dad taught it to him. Obviously back in the day they had a a hatred for Asian people and made up songs to ridicule them"
-snip-

Another poster who recognized the "socially incorrect" nature of this apparently fondly remembered rhyme is GUEST,Hugh
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 05:22 PM who wrote:

"I remember a song I heard at summer camp in Canada in the 60s. Unthinkable that anyone would sing it now.

-snip-

Guest Hugh may have meant that he considers it unthinkable that this song would be sung in public at camp.

It would be interesting to see what Chinese people think of this rhyme.

I hope that if {since} this rhyme continues to be passed down to children that at the very least some acknowledgement of this fact is made by the adults who are carrying on this tradition. And I hope that those who pass this rhyme on to their children reinforce that it isn't good to make fun of people because of their race, ethnicity and/or nationality.

That said, I believe discussion threads like this one serve are important as they help document the variant texts of folk rhymes and folk songs. [See my earlier comments to this thread about the possible connection between "Once In China"... and other certain other children's rhymes].

I think that community folklorists, professional folklorists, and the general public have only begun to recognize the importance of text based Internet discussion forums such as Mudcat as a means of documenting, studying, and passing on the words to children's rhymes/songs and other folk songs. And, hopefully, in the immediate future, more and more people will also recognize the huge role that Internet sites such as YouTube can serve in helping to document, study, and disseminate not only the words,but also the tunes, and any performance activities of these examples of folk culture..

GUEST,Brian Fellows 16 Nov 07 - 05:11 PM appears to be the only person so far to post a URL to a YouTube video of "Once In China There Lived A Great Man". Along with that website address, Brian Fellows adked "I wonder if the tune is always the same?"

Here's the hyperlink to that YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSLYYkEH_nM

For some reason that video clip is titled "Chewing Gum".

I searched for this rhyme on YouTube under its title, and there doesn't appear to be any entries of it as of this date.

-snip-

To some extent that posts is an example of my take on historical and also contemporary songs and rhymes that have could be said to be racially insensitive. I don't want those songs deleted from this forum, but I'm concerned that people might pass those songs on to another generation who may not understand that these songs contain culturally/racially insensitive terms.

Also, as an amateur folklorist, I'm interested in reading variants of rhymes. I'm glad when people post demographical information, and I'm interested in exploring possible connections between old songs and rhymes and contemporary songs and rhymes.

Furthermore, I'm concerned that an overwhelming majority of the posters to that "Lyr Req: 'Once in China there lived a great man" threads are guests to this forum and because they are guests they probably don't "get" that this forum presents historical songs and rhymes that may contain terms that are outdated and racially insensitive because of their historical, folkloric value.

In this threadRE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting I wrote that I wish that Max would approve posting a disclaimer on the front page that indicated that certain songs/rhymes on this forum might contain culturally insensitive language but that these compositions were posted for the sake of history and for folkloric research. But whether such a disclaimer happens or not (and my sense is that it won't), I'll still post on Mudcat and continue to try to maintain a balance of folkloric study and societal concern when I consider something to be concerning and I recognize that everyone may not always agree with what I consider to be concerning.