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Why does modern music sound so different

cnd 11 Apr 15 - 11:34 AM
kendall 11 Apr 15 - 11:40 AM
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pdq 13 Apr 15 - 07:13 PM
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kendall 15 Apr 15 - 12:20 PM
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cnd 15 Apr 15 - 07:11 PM
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Ed T 16 Apr 15 - 07:40 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Apr 15 - 07:50 AM
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GUEST,# 16 Apr 15 - 08:07 AM
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kendall 16 Apr 15 - 09:46 AM
Ed T 16 Apr 15 - 09:59 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Apr 15 - 10:02 AM
Ed T 16 Apr 15 - 10:13 AM
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Ed T 16 Apr 15 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 16 Apr 15 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,gillymor 16 Apr 15 - 11:59 AM
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Will Fly 17 Apr 15 - 05:02 AM
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Jim Carroll 17 Apr 15 - 10:50 AM
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The Sandman 17 Apr 15 - 02:26 PM
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The Sandman 17 Apr 15 - 02:39 PM
Ed T 17 Apr 15 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,HiLo 17 Apr 15 - 03:27 PM
Will Fly 17 Apr 15 - 03:51 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Apr 15 - 04:10 PM
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GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 17 Apr 15 - 06:40 PM
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The Sandman 17 Apr 15 - 08:58 PM
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ripov 17 Apr 15 - 09:16 PM
olddude 17 Apr 15 - 09:21 PM
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Jim Carroll 18 Apr 15 - 03:15 AM
Will Fly 18 Apr 15 - 04:11 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Apr 15 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 15 - 05:15 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Apr 15 - 05:33 AM
Will Fly 18 Apr 15 - 05:48 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Apr 15 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 15 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 18 Apr 15 - 06:35 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 15 - 06:43 AM
Will Fly 18 Apr 15 - 06:47 AM
Will Fly 18 Apr 15 - 06:48 AM
The Sandman 18 Apr 15 - 07:15 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 15 - 07:19 AM
Will Fly 18 Apr 15 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 18 Apr 15 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,# 18 Apr 15 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Derrick 18 Apr 15 - 09:31 AM
Ed T 18 Apr 15 - 10:08 AM
MGM·Lion 18 Apr 15 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,Stim 18 Apr 15 - 10:52 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 15 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,# 18 Apr 15 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 18 Apr 15 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Derrick 18 Apr 15 - 11:27 AM
Will Fly 18 Apr 15 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Apr 15 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,# 18 Apr 15 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 18 Apr 15 - 12:24 PM
The Sandman 18 Apr 15 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Ed 18 Apr 15 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 18 Apr 15 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 18 Apr 15 - 04:09 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Apr 15 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 18 Apr 15 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 18 Apr 15 - 04:31 PM
The Sandman 18 Apr 15 - 05:29 PM
The Sandman 18 Apr 15 - 05:43 PM
Ed T 18 Apr 15 - 05:44 PM
Ed T 18 Apr 15 - 06:54 PM
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Thompson 19 Apr 15 - 03:16 AM
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The Sandman 19 Apr 15 - 06:40 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 15 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 19 Apr 15 - 07:03 AM
MGM·Lion 19 Apr 15 - 07:18 AM
Will Fly 19 Apr 15 - 07:20 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Apr 15 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 19 Apr 15 - 08:28 AM
The Sandman 19 Apr 15 - 08:42 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 15 - 08:55 AM
The Sandman 19 Apr 15 - 09:00 AM
Will Fly 19 Apr 15 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,gillymor 19 Apr 15 - 10:05 AM
GUEST 19 Apr 15 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 19 Apr 15 - 11:28 AM
Will Fly 19 Apr 15 - 12:53 PM
The Sandman 19 Apr 15 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,# 19 Apr 15 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,# 19 Apr 15 - 01:25 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 15 - 01:31 PM
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Ed T 19 Apr 15 - 02:03 PM
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MGM·Lion 20 Apr 15 - 01:28 AM
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Musket 20 Apr 15 - 03:03 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Apr 15 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 20 Apr 15 - 04:43 AM
The Sandman 20 Apr 15 - 04:44 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 15 - 04:58 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Apr 15 - 05:26 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Apr 15 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 15 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 20 Apr 15 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 20 Apr 15 - 06:09 AM
Musket 20 Apr 15 - 06:36 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 15 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,grandad9 20 Apr 15 - 09:27 AM
Will Fly 20 Apr 15 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 20 Apr 15 - 11:12 AM
Musket 20 Apr 15 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 15 - 11:32 AM
The Sandman 20 Apr 15 - 11:33 AM
Will Fly 20 Apr 15 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Stim 20 Apr 15 - 12:10 PM
The Sandman 20 Apr 15 - 12:11 PM
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Big Al Whittle 20 Apr 15 - 12:24 PM
Will Fly 20 Apr 15 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,HiLo 20 Apr 15 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 15 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,# 20 Apr 15 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Hi lp 20 Apr 15 - 01:13 PM
Will Fly 20 Apr 15 - 01:20 PM
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Ed T 20 Apr 15 - 01:29 PM
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olddude 20 Apr 15 - 01:52 PM
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Will Fly 20 Apr 15 - 02:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Apr 15 - 02:26 PM
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Ed T 20 Apr 15 - 04:18 PM
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The Sandman 20 Apr 15 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,# 20 Apr 15 - 05:10 PM
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Will Fly 21 Apr 15 - 03:27 AM
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akenaton 21 Apr 15 - 03:48 AM
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The Sandman 21 Apr 15 - 07:14 AM
Rob Naylor 21 Apr 15 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 15 - 08:21 AM
Musket 21 Apr 15 - 09:41 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 15 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 15 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Stim 21 Apr 15 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 15 - 01:08 PM
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Big Al Whittle 22 Apr 15 - 02:21 PM
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Ed T 22 Apr 15 - 04:34 PM
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GUEST,# 22 Apr 15 - 08:11 PM
Musket 23 Apr 15 - 02:17 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 15 - 02:58 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 15 - 04:10 AM
Musket 23 Apr 15 - 01:47 PM
Musket 23 Apr 15 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Stim 23 Apr 15 - 04:14 PM
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Musket 24 Apr 15 - 02:04 AM
The Sandman 24 Apr 15 - 04:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 15 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 24 Apr 15 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 15 - 04:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 15 - 04:37 AM
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Jim Carroll 24 Apr 15 - 06:19 AM
GUEST 24 Apr 15 - 06:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 15 - 07:06 AM
The Sandman 24 Apr 15 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 15 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 24 Apr 15 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 15 - 07:30 AM
The Sandman 24 Apr 15 - 07:32 AM
The Sandman 24 Apr 15 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 24 Apr 15 - 07:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 15 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,# 24 Apr 15 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,# 24 Apr 15 - 08:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 15 - 08:25 AM
Teribus 24 Apr 15 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,gillymor 24 Apr 15 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 15 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 15 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,# 24 Apr 15 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 15 - 11:32 AM
The Sandman 24 Apr 15 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 24 Apr 15 - 11:56 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 15 - 12:17 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 15 - 12:31 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 15 - 01:05 PM
Ed T 24 Apr 15 - 01:26 PM
The Sandman 24 Apr 15 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 15 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 15 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,# 24 Apr 15 - 03:37 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 15 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 15 - 06:58 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 15 - 07:03 PM
Musket 25 Apr 15 - 03:35 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 15 - 03:57 AM
akenaton 25 Apr 15 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 15 - 04:32 AM
The Sandman 25 Apr 15 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 15 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 15 - 04:40 AM
Musket 25 Apr 15 - 04:58 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 15 - 05:09 AM
Musket 25 Apr 15 - 05:30 AM
akenaton 25 Apr 15 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 15 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 15 - 06:45 AM
Musket 25 Apr 15 - 07:16 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Apr 15 - 07:53 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 15 - 08:08 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 15 - 08:34 AM
Musket 25 Apr 15 - 09:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 15 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 15 - 10:46 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 15 - 10:50 AM
Rob Naylor 25 Apr 15 - 11:00 AM
akenaton 25 Apr 15 - 11:03 AM
Musket 25 Apr 15 - 11:31 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 15 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 15 - 12:32 PM
Musket 25 Apr 15 - 12:50 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Apr 15 - 01:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 15 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,# 25 Apr 15 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 15 - 02:20 PM
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Subject: BS: Why does modern folk sound so different
From: cnd
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 11:34 AM

I don't understand why modern folk, country, bluegrass etc sound so different? Not different songs/styles, but artists doing covers of classic songs, even when they try to sound the same, almost always are pretty noticeably different. I have a couple guesses, one being that the use of multiple mics allows greater instrumental pickup, and a second that also revolves around mics, but this time that the mics are better and pick up more song.

But the instrumentation isn't the only difference. Another big thing I've noticed is the singing. I'm still trying to put my finger on it, but I think it's that it sounds clearer. Also, maybe more female vocalists. Anyone else have some clues?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 11:40 AM

It's all noise to me.
Loud and repetitious can never replace good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 12:41 PM

I think maybe modern mixing tends to elevate the vocals more, and there are more vocal enhancements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 12:47 PM

Technology and taste have both moved on. Simple as that. Is that a problem?

It's all noise to me. is a really pathetic comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 12:47 PM

Depends who you listen to, try Gillian Welch and David Rawlings, "modern" music with all the traditional magic left in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 12:53 PM

The way that it goes


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 01:56 PM

Kendall - "Loud and repetitious"....

errrmmm.. don't that sum up much of good ol' folk music...???😜
.. shanties for instance.....?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 05:33 AM

IMNSHO
the first time we encounter a song, especially by a good musician, it does rather set the standard by which we "appreciate" the next rendition.
A similar process must go on with the genre too.
Newbies don't have that historical precedent and as they absorb the music - that becomes their line in the sand.
The way music is made and propagated has changed, and it will leave its mark. Most notably on the hearing of the consumer.
The average age at several levels of hearing loss has fallen, despite a lot of industries that used to cause hearing loss like boiler-making, rivetting, blacksmithing etc.

You can't tell 'em, it falls on deaf ears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 08:47 AM

Tastes in music change for some people and not for others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 08:56 AM

Music in # is always delightful....best wishes.A


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 09:03 AM

That would be my opinion too !.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 11:32 AM

"It's all noise to me" - yes very much Bellowhead!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 01:07 PM

I actually enjoy listening to various covers and variations of songs I like. It adds a new, and fresh perspective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 08:24 PM

"Various covers" sure do add a perspective.

A couple years ago I went thru a collection of many versions that someone had posted of "Hard Times Come Again No More".

I found 18 that I liked a lot, 22 that were 'sorta ok'.... and 43 that made me wonder what they were thinking of! Several were incomprehensibly weird.

Many 'newer' ones sounded like they were just trying to be different for the sake of being different.... which is what I suspect happens with many covers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 12 Apr 15 - 08:47 PM

I keep hopin' not to hear any new and different versions of that old Paul Anka song..."Havin' My Baby". Specially not in the Rap style. There are some things that the whisky just don't make any better.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 03:32 AM

All music tends to sound the same to those it doesn't particularly appeal to - any music.
I'd have retired at forty if I'd been given a £ for every time somebody said - all folksongs sound the same, or all classical music, or all jazz, or blues.... or whatever type of music happens to appeal to me.
I'd never heard Gillian Welch and David Rawlings, until I just searched out one of their tracks - almost exactly the same as all those country duos I walked away from when I was twenty (except slower and drearier).
One of the features of music that turns you on is that you tend to listen to it closely and discriminate - a cross we all bear!!
I really don't think that applies to pop music to the same extent, which has to be rem-marketed and re-wrapped periodically by the industry in order to be profitable.
Today's flavour-of-the-month will "all sound the same" in a few years time.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 04:22 AM

doesn't really answer the question. I suspect there are lots of answers.

In classical music - the change is very dramatic - from Elgar to everything beyond.

Jazz made the big turn for me at the time of bebop. Although I love all jazz.

folkmusic....abandon all hope all who enter here. some people like Jim won't allow that what most of us take to be folk music is folk music.

Though how he differentiates between Gillian Welch's phoney Appalachian and Peggy Seeger's phoney Appalachian is beyond me. I think they would get on with each other.

The question remains - why is it different. Perhaps because middle class intellectuals who patronise live music in concert halls want there aspirations stroked. They want to be provided with something that is not what ordinary folk are singing along to - that's what I suspect. I watched an acoustic duo, gut and steel do George Ezra's Budapest song in a pub yesterday, the field force was tangible - the whole room lit up.

Also musicians - they like to kick over the traces and not be confined by the same old dull formulae. Certainly that's how the bebop, and later the Ornette Coleman sort of free form jazz must have started. Similarly with instruments. Is there a guitarists heart so dull he has never switched the amp up to eleven and felt his heart rise with excitement?

THen again audiences change their expectations and professional musicians and composers have to respond to what is asked of them.

I hope that has been some reasons why music has change and will continue to change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 04:52 AM

Agree with your analysis Al, but to outsiders, it still "sounds the same"
Pop music, I believe, is unique in its formulaic nature - it needs to sound the same to be "in" (except to the aficionados
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 05:26 AM

Interesting. But why BS?

*

Pop music, I believe, is unique in its formulaic nature - it needs to sound the same to be "in" (except to the aficionados

All music is formulaic - that's how idioms & traditions are defined. Such idioms will all sound the same to people who don't like them, yet within each idiom there is sufficient diversity to keep it interesting for those in-the-know.

Pop Music is Popular Music - Popular as in People, all people. The myriad feral idioms of Popular Music form a continuity unbroken these past 50,000 years or more as human creativity is born afresh with each new generation who experience the self-same sense of wonder and renewal that invigorates their creative urges to paying their dues and maybe making a contribution or two themselves and so it goes on, incrementally transfiguring itself with respect of available technology.

The People's Music! Here's to it sounding different for another 50,00 years!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 05:33 AM

I think you are wrong about pop music. It has much in common with other genres in that the worst of it is really unbearable but the best of it is truly exciting. There is also much in between these two poles which is very good pop.
As for the previous comment about " middle class intellectuals" and live music , well what can one say to that ... A very odd point of view, to say the least!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 06:10 AM

It has much in common with other genres in that the worst of it is really unbearable but the best of it is truly exciting

Too subjective. What we need here is a broader objective appreciation of what is, after all, integral to our humanity. Popular Music is symbiotic with other feral aspects of popular culture such as technology, media and business. It is defined by and, to a significant extent, definitive of each epoch, and each epoch informs subsequent ones in all sorts of wonderful, exceptional and ingenious ways as each successive generation sees, hears and does it differently, and brilliantly, regardless of whether you like it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 08:55 AM

Wouldn't it be odd and very limiting if music, or any art, were frozen in time-even though some peoples tastes in music may be so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 09:10 AM

Ed - yeah... it'd be like sad small minded folk limiting themselves to a diet of porridge and high fibre bread
because it's all they know, and all they like...???


Whereas most of us can happily coexist with our progressively diverse tastes in food and music....😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 09:10 AM

I try, God knows, but maybe there's only so much space for new music in the brain? I managed a couple of amazing new albums last year - Matt Berry, Metronony (complete with healthy back catalogue) and FKA Twiggs - all of which we bought on vinyl too...

Otherwise, recent purchases are all old stuff : Soft Machine, John Coltrane, Cluster, Michael Hurley, Harmonia, John Jenkins, William Lawes, John Dowland, Fela Kuti, and after a lovely day in Liverpool the other day I bought The White Album by way of a souvenir - not forgetting picking up an old copy of Fish Rising on Saturday in Lancaster which just happened to be the 40th anniversary of its release...

Happily though Popular Culture races on apace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 10:04 AM

Some of my recent pop purchases include Lily Allen's first album, very clever and funny. The Haunted Man by Bat For Lashes (Natasha Khan) great song writing. I also purchased Let England Shake by P.J. Harvey, Lungs by Florence and The Machine and Fifty Words for Snow by Kate Bush. All greatPop records and, I didn't notice til ,. now, all by female artists.
I listen to music in a lot of genres and it all changes over time. I think that that is a good thing really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 11:42 AM

Big fans of Bat for Lashes here - saw her a couple of years back at Manchester Cathedral and was utterly wowed by the gal. FKA Twiggs is in a similar vain of English genius (i.e I think they both been compared to Bjork - hey! Another recent album!) but much darker in her take on R&B. I hope she keeps it up! Meanwhile - where's Natasha? Haven't heard from her for too long. Here's a favourite from the MCR Cathedral gig. What a setting!:

Bat For Lashes - Horses of the Sun live Manchester Cathedral 22-10-12


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 02:51 PM

I hate Lilly Allen's stuff with a passion! Wigger with delusions of grandeur.

But to make the point I came here to make, surely while rock music might be feral, pop music is at most farouche rather than feroce or sauvage. And Blandiver is still pretentious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 03:48 PM

There are too many facets of Popular Music to pin it down, especially as it moves in symbiosis with other aspects off popular culture - media, technology, business, fashion, graphics - all of which are pretty fluid in terms of tradition / folklore. Rock music is a facet of pop - the processes and traditions are exactly the same (media. tech, fashion, graphics, fashion) though maybe the audience is more niche rather than feral per se.

I'm going to see Magma in Manchester on election night. I bet that will be pretty niche - as my wife points out, at least there won't be too much of a queue for the ladies'. They play Pop Music in the Prog Rock idiom, sub-category Zeuhl, which draws on aspects of Jazz, Classical and Experimentalism with copious dollops of Soul thrown in for good measure. Now that is pretentious!

No one cares what you hate, Richard - tell us what you love!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 04:29 PM

Blandiver, thanks for the link to Bat For Lashes at Manchester, lovely. I like Bjork as well, she claims Kate Bush as a major influence. I think that Kate Bush has been a seminal artist and has had a profound influence over the years.
Richard, I know that Lily Allen is not to everyone's taste, but I do think she has a great sense of irony and a sharp wit. Musically, she is not terribly sophisticated, but lyrically she is very clever, at least in my opinion.
Sometimes I just close my eyes and pull out a cd and play it..never know what I'll get. We both have very eclectic tastes, so the music is always a surprise and I find that there is not much that I really don't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 04:47 PM

My wife's a huge & lifelong Kate Bush fan though sadly we were unable to attend on her London extravaganza! (At least I got her down for the Bowie exhibit at the V&A the year before). I really got to know & love her Aerial album. Another one in a similar mode is Jane Siberry - very idiosyncratic (and Canadian) but some of her stuff wastes me to the core. Oh - and Tori Amos. And Saint Vincent. And Cat Power. And.. and...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Hi
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 04:55 PM

Are we ever on the same page, St. Vincent yes..just grand . And I have a lot of Jane Siberry. But Kate Bush is just my favourite.. I love Aerial, fills me with great Joy, it really does. I didn't get tickets either, was hugely disappointed.
   Haven't heard Cat Power, will have to check it out. I will have to give another listen to Tori Amos. Only have her " Little Earthquakes "album but my significant other plays it more than I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 04:58 PM

Calling All Angels--Jane Siberry


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: cnd
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 05:15 PM

Wow, thanks all! I never thought it would be so popular! I guess I'll try to respond to some of your questions/comments here.

Ed T and punkfolkrocker - I don't know if your comments are direccted at me, but I don't per se dislike more modern music. I was just wondering why the folks at Mudcat thought it might sound different.

Blandiver (Astray) - I put it as BS because I wasn't really sure if it would qualify as relevant enough to float in the normal category.   I suppose it could live in either, but I just put it here.

Jim Carrol - I would tend to agree that pop is the most likely to sound the same. Here's a couple links on that.
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3

Big Al Whittle and Bill D - I suppose musicians wanting to be different could be part of it, but that wouldn't explain why covers still sound different.

Mr Red - I think that is one of the bigger reasons, but I think you'd have to pair it up with Bill D and Big Al's comment--that musician's first style they hear may or may not be the one they base theirs off of, and then their favorites change because someone changed a little, with a domino effect.

Pete from seven stars link - That's what I was thinking.

Well, I think that's it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 05:24 PM

My posts were not spevifically directed at you cnd, just the topics during the discussion. While a thread OP often opens a discussion, the topics most often tends to broaden beyond the OP, much like musical style evolves, versus being frozen in time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,.
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 05:42 PM

wwwww....WWWWWW....WHY IS THIS CONSIDERED b.s.???

I wondered, too, Garg, so I moved it to the music section. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 06:24 PM

cnd - be assured none of my comments here were aimed at you...
and thanks for opening one of the more interesting of recent threads...

Though I do not deny my sarcasm is directed towards a certain element
of mudcat's more hardcore musically reactionary pompous folkies....😉


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 06:43 PM

Thread above Hi was me. Brain to fast for fingers' or other way round. I like this thread being inBS. Not really folk but music that appeals to a wide range of people. Can we just let it be and enjoy ? I have learned a lot already, great thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 07:03 PM

An interesting site on the spectrum of music:


Everything at once 


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 07:05 PM

The Distortion of Sound--great 23 minute explanation

Here's another way to 'see' the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 07:13 PM

At the begining of the 20th Century, people began adding syncopation to almost all types of traditional music.

The plodding 4/4 and (sometimes 3/4 dance music) got a subtle lift.

The Delmores Brothers actually swing a bit. They were Doc Watson's greatest influence as far as rhythm and harmony go.

You can hear some boogie, swing and other modern affectations added to most modern music, even when it is called Folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 08:17 PM

'Why does modern music sound so different??'

Because the old farts are tone deaf and brain-dead, anyway....so it doesn't matter!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Apr 15 - 08:33 PM

Lets keep it positive shall we! Do have a constructive or informative comment, we love to hear it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 12:38 AM

Hi, GFS m'darling. Now you call on me to post, in my capacity as Official Boring Old Fart, I'll reiterate my BOF Credo to remind you that, Sub specie æternitatis, 'twill be the likes of you that won't matter:-

===Boring·Old·Fart credo:
to which, at age of 80+, feel self entitled:   viz that my Literature shall be Comprehensible;   my Art Representational;   my Music Tonal: naught else shall penetrate my perception-zone.===

Thus Spake BOFustra!

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 02:35 AM

Nurse!

He's out of bed again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 04:02 AM

The over-use of compression is one factor. The objective is to get your CD louder than the "opposition" so you bring all the soft bits up to the level of the loud bits and therefore lose the "light and shade" - use of things like frequency slotting do give modern recordings the clarity but if you just take a look at a modern wav file, you get the impression of a solid blob of sound.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 04:27 AM

in my opinion it does not sound different ,it sounds bland, samey, but then my ears are different tothe ops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 05:40 AM

I will have to give another listen to Tori Amos.

Her 2011 Night of Hunters is worth a look : a journey into the dark heart of Irish Mytholog which manages to do it without a single note of the old Riverdance creeping in, rather she bases it all on variations of familiar classical melodies. Bizarre but affecting!    And be sure to check out her Xmas album nearer the time - Midwinter Graces (2009) - in which she gives an uplifting Tori twist to lots of familiar chestnuts, and points the way to a few unfamiliar ones. I especially like this one...

Tori Amos - Jeanette Isabella


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 05:44 AM

MGM·Lion: "Hi, GFS m'darling. Now you call on me to post, in my capacity as Official Boring Old Fart, I'll reiterate my BOF Credo to remind you that, Sub specie æternitatis, 'twill be the likes of you that won't matter:-"

Well, glad to see you've achieved your younger goals....but some of us, as part of our goals, try to make it better for the next generation.

HiLo: "Lets keep it positive shall we! Do have a constructive or informative comment, we love to hear it."

See above.

....unless you REALLY want to get heavy!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 06:05 AM

"...make it better for the next generation" is exactly what I AM trying to do, GfS, in my struggle against the incomprehensible, the unrepresentational, and the atonal.

Join me. Aux armes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 06:21 AM

im my opinion it sounds so samey because its sole raison d etre is to make money, as a result it is soulless commercial drivel


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 06:21 AM

...and how are you doing that??....describe what you see as 'better'.

Let's go for it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 06:23 AM

"Why does modern music sound so different"

By 'modern music' we gotta remember that to some mudcatters
modern music means something startlingly terrifyingly new they heard circa 1965
which forced them into hasty retreat,
defensively burying their heads in the sand for the following half century...😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 08:14 AM

Tori Amos : Deluxe editions of Little Earthquakes & Under the Pink released today! My wife is very excited...

Tori Amos Releases 2-CD Deluxe Editions of LITTLE EARTHQUAKES and UNDER THE PINK Today


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 08:28 AM

I'm not so sure about the "samey" thing and can't see how it all sounds the same anymore than music from any other era or genre! I know lots of people who don't like Scottish fiddle music because they say it all sounds the same. You could say the same though for many, probably most, genres.

So yes some R&B and Rap etc does sound much the same as the rest in the genre but not all modern music is of those genres and anyway much rock'n'roll, blues, fiddle music, bluegrass, chamber music etc sounds pretty much the same as other rock'n'roll, blues, fiddle music, bluegrass, chamber music etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 08:56 AM

Thanks Blandiver, I will check out the Tori Amos you have mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 09:22 AM

It's nice having a wife who loves different music! Tori is my missus's thing, but I've come to dig a lot of her stuff. Left to my own devices - well, most of today I've been flitting between London Baroque's CD of Pachelbel Chamber Music, The Avison Ensemble's recording of Charles Avison's 8 Concertos Opus 8 and Scott Walker & Sunn O)))'s sublime Soused... as well as my own real-time electronic noise in which my super new Squire Fender VI has come play a crucial part.

Note : All music sounds the same to people who don't appreciate it. To dismiss it as such is plain silly - to look for reasons / excuses is still sillier. It is all down to subjective taste. You don't not like it because it all sounds the same - it all sounds the same because you don't like it. Only when you care for something can you hear the uniqueness inherent in any given idiom that embeds it as part of your very soul. Simples. This is true of all music. Hearing is believing. To each their own.

*

And I still don't see why this is BS, unless to beef up the numbers down here as the thread slashers wield their holier-than-thou axes in the desperate hope of stimulating new growth...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 10:03 AM

Thanks, #, for the link to the 23-minute video on the sound of music (as opposed to The Sound of Music.)

I could stand it for 5:09 minutes, then I got tired of watching people with attention-getting hair speak platitudes. I did note the parts about poor-quality headphones, poor-quality speakers and that compression loses 90% of sound. So, CND (the OP) listen to #'s video, and maybe your questions will be answered.

By the way, one guy said scathingly, "I don't wake up with a head full of music." That's funny, because I do. I wake up with themes running in my head. Just lately I have had to break it to my cat that her breakfast is going to wait till I get the theme of the day notated in MIDI; if I wait, the theme will be lost forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 10:34 AM

"Just lately I have had to break it to my cat that her breakfast is going to wait till I get the theme of the day notated in MIDI; if I wait, the theme will be lost forever."

Do I know about that. I've had to write bits of new melodies on paper, because if I don't they're gone within a day or so. I used to remember stuff I was 'composing' for months. Now, I remember for hours, sometimes minutes :-)

The video gets into visual screens of what compression is and what it's done to sound we hear and subsequently how we hear. Worth struggling through when you have time and can get past some of the blather. I do agree it is irritating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: BrendanB
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 05:19 PM

Samey popular music? Tom Waits, Prefab Sprout, Bat for Lashes, Rage a Against the Machine..... You could probably add a dozen more. They are startlingly different but all beautiful in their own way.
No-one can pontificate on any kind of music, if you love it, you love it. There are those who think that because they have been involved in a certain genre of music for a long time they are qualified to so pontificate. Message for you, you're not. I don't get a lot of recent 'pop' music but I love Rizzle Kicks (loved Portishead as well). I am involved in classical music, folk music and eclectic choral music, I just thank God for music. I love Royal Blood as well, how sad am I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 07:29 PM

It's all noise to me. That is an opinion and not an attack on any thin skinned, intolerant loudmouth who has a different opinion. I didn't resort to juvenile name calling, but I'm a past master at it. (Before I grew up). Note that I don't hide behind a fake handle.

Some of these responses are the reason so many have stopped coming here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 08:03 PM

of course its noise - otherwise you couldn't hear it, if it didn't make a noise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 08:42 PM

Acorn4: The over-use of compression is one factor.

True to an extent, but in the last few years many sound engineers have been moving away from this, and going back for more nuanced work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 09:00 PM

Allan Conn: I'm not so sure about the "samey" thing and can't see how it all sounds the same anymore than music from any other era or genre! I know lots of people who don't like Scottish fiddle music because they say it all sounds the same. You could say the same though for many, probably most, genres.

So yes some R&B and Rap etc does sound much the same as the rest in the genre but not all modern music is of those genres and anyway much rock'n'roll, blues, fiddle music, bluegrass, chamber music etc sounds pretty much the same as other rock'n'roll, blues, fiddle music, bluegrass, chamber music etc.


Absolutely! I was about to post something very similar (samey?) but saw your post first.

There's actually a lot of variety in current music, and, as I've posted here before, the songs/ tunes from the past that we consider great are just the tip of an iceberg of mediocrity and derivative "me-too-ness" that's survived while the crap has been thankfully forgotten.

Just been listening to some nice drum and bass from a female duo, followed by some folky stuff from Gilmore & Roberts and then a blast of indie rock from Arcade Fire....excellent variety and all recorded in the last couple of years.

As someone quite senior myself, it's depressing to see other seniors "dissing" current music in the same way my parents disparaged my generation's music. In fact, they had no idea what we youngsters were *actually* listening to as all they heard on the radio and saw on TV were bland bands such as Freddie and The Deamers and Herman's Hermits. They had no idea of the existence of The Nice, Soft Machine, King Crimson, Yes, etc, which is what we were *actually* listening to.

Same now....all most older people see/ hear of the current (loosely labelled) "pop" scene is the highly commercial stuff on TV and (most) radio (there are a few programmes/ DJs in the UK where you can still get a broadish selection, but they tend to be late night or internet radio only).


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 09:17 PM

To follow up on that, when I saw Arcade Fire at the O2 in London (a rare concession to visiting a big venue) a couple of years back, Win Butler made a tellng comment: "Interesting that we've managed to completely sell-out a 17,000-seater venue 2 nights running here in London, yet we've never had a hit single".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 15 - 10:44 PM

Hello again, #. If you can keep a theme in your head for a day, you are doing better than I. If I don't write it down, it will be gone by the time the cat is fed and the morning toast is toasted.

I guess I didn't really mean what I said about people in the movie speaking platitudes. The thing is, we have so few words for describing sounds and music. We rely on old chestnuts, such as "It has to come from the heart..." That gets boring pretty fast.

If I wake up in the morning with a song in my mind, I think it comes from my cerebellum or maybe the medulla oblongata, not from the heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 01:19 AM

Some people didn't like this performance....just because of who sang it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 04:19 AM

Some of these responses are the reason so many have stopped coming here.

Er... There's not one antagonistic post here, Kendall - other than yours. I suggest you stop looking for trouble where there isn't any.

*

You get a far broader sweep of things on TV & Radio these days, especially around festival time, which is how my wife and I first heard METRONOMY - unheard in our house a year ago they're now pretty much our favourite band after catching them on TV last summer. We saw them in MCR a few months back supported by Nzca Lines and Teleman - and they've become firm favourites too. I think we first heard FKA twigs on Jools Holland's Later - her stuff beggars belief; the curious might check out Video Girl on YouTube - not for the faint hearted I grant, but if it's genius you're looking for - or conformation of the living breathing beauty of Pop Music...

I'd say the Pop Scene now is healthier than ever - staggeringly in its diversity - but maybe that's because (acutely aware of growing long in the tooth!) I'm making more of a determined effort to engage with it and reap the not inconsiderable rewards.

Doesn't stop me loving the old stuff though. Just bought a deluxe vinyl / CD re-issue of Musik Von Harmonia - and I still think Tomorrow Never Knows on Revolver sounds like it was recorded next year.

To some, sadly, it will always be just a noise. Their loss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 06:11 AM

Watched a lovely movie last night on "Now TV" - [got a free 2 month subscription]
which brought tears of nostalgia and joy to my eyes...

"Vinyl" (2012) Directed by Sara Sugarman [known for "Very Annie Mary"]

..about how an aging [exactly same age as me] once successful, but long disbanded, punk band
are determined to have one last try at a hit record before it's too late;
and the desperate ruse they resort to
battling against a record industry obsessed with youth and teenage demographics...

The point of the story being that the quality of a song & recording transcends age and time...

Btw - Kendall - you are responsible for the creation of 'Punkfolkrocker' !!!

When I first found Mudcat 12 to 15 years ago
looking for the lyrics for a folk song.
I was so dismayed by your [and some of your friends]
negative scornful insulting dismissive attitude towards 'modern music',
that I stayed and invented the persona of 'punkfolkrocker'
just to playfully chip away at your collective smug sense of acoustic folkie superiority....

But thankfully in doing so, I also found mudcat to be a wonderful wider community
of musicians and music lovers,
who, in contrast to your supercilious clique, represented the better positive aspects
of shared interest musical camaraderie.

So thank you Kendall....😜


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 06:16 AM

There could be (nay, is) a generational thing at play. Whilst I was trying to enjoy my swingin' Sixties adolescence, my Sinatra/Crosby-loving parents were telling me that my Beatles, Stones, etc., were all rubbish. In the nineties and noughties I was guilty of the same error apropos of my own kids' tastes. In the last four or five years I've been editing pop songs, mostly modern, on my computer for our local dance teacher. I have to cut out lumps and stitch the ends seamlessly together, which means listening critically to sections of the songs over and over again in order to get the joins right. Well I'll be blowed. I've discovered that much of the stuff that would normally have had me switching off in a hurry is actually arranged, performed and produced to an incredibly high standard. Doesn't mean that I'm about to ditch my CD collection any minute, but it does make me realise that it behoves us to refrain from sniffily dismissing anything as rubbish when what we really mean is that there's a chance it might not be to our taste. It reminds me of that Guinness ad from decades ago, which carried the slogan "I haven't tried it and I don't like it."

By the way, nothing will convince me that Sinatra and Crosby aren't complete anodyne bilge!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 06:49 AM

Weird thing is here, the older I get so the more I'm hearing SINATRA, Dear God. Straight to the heart...

Love Sammy Davis Jr. too, but I think maybe I aways have - seeing him on telly as a kid was always a joy. They showed some stuff on BBC4 the other week that had me riveted - especially his West Side Story medley accompanied solely by bongos. How hip can you get?

Sammy & bongos West Side Story Medley


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 07:43 AM

The age thing is definitely a thing in my house. When we were both younger we both loved discovering new music. When I say "new" I mean new to us - whether it was in fact new or just older stuff we were discovering twas no difference. My future wife used to listen to stuff I'd recommend too. I used to tape her things like Eden by EBTG and now it's one of her favourites. Prior to meeting me she'd got some of the early Bowie albums out of the library, listened once, then just taped the singles! A college friend of her's told her to get them out again and give them a real listen which she did and now is a big Bowie fan. Not saying she'd like everything recommended but she'd give it a fair chance.

Now not so! Whether in the car, about the house or whatever she knows what she likes and likes what she knows and only wants to listen to that - the exception being some new pop stuff fed by the media. If she comes in and I'm playing something she doesn't recognise she'll only give it several bars before saying "what's that obscure rubbish let's put something else on". Hence we used to share discovering new sounds but now it is only myself who likes doing that. I miss sharing that experience. Especially when it is so easy now! We use Napster so find an artist you like then it recommends similar artists, their influences etc. Not to mention what can be discovered on Youtube.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 08:06 AM

Gave Cat Power a listen, really liked her. Quite a difference between her older and more recent stuff. Tried out Metronomic, not sure what I think of it. Will Have to give it another listen. Thanks for the tips. Oh, have you listened to Joanna Newsome, very odd, but grand stuff.
I go back to a lot of old stuff, love Al Bowly (sic) and Cab Calloway is a great treat.
   Great thread, I have learned a lot.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: kendall
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 08:46 AM

guest and ashtray, I beg to differ. Saying my post was pathetic, what the hell do you call that?

Look, it's ALL opinion, and mine is as sacred as yours, so lay off.
I remember when people thought the Monkeys were great. I thought they sucked. No one is right or wrong unless they post a fact. The most you can do is offer a different opinion. Opinion: the Monkeys sucked. Fact, the monkeys were popular and many liked what they did. That doesn't change my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 09:11 AM

The Monkees (note spelling) never sucked; they were, and remain, cool as fuck.

Mike Nesmith and Frank Zappa on "The Monkees"


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 09:25 AM

Kendall - do you not realise how much you are seen to push your opinions
as boorish prejudice...???

Seriously.. while you have earned respect as a fine folk singer,
that does not give you any special right to insult and disrespect
the musical endeavours of such a wide diversity of other artists
with impunity...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 09:36 AM

The Monkees' songs were very well crafted. Now here's something to do: set your Goblin Teasmade for eight o'clock on Saturday morning and tune the clock radio to Radio 2. You get two hours of Brian Matthew (nope, not dead yet!) doing Sounds of the Sixties. He plays everything, completely without discrimination, the good the bad and the downright risible. The Beatles and Stones and the like are shamelessly juxtaposed with obscure one-hit wonders from 1963. You get the superb right alongside the ditties with disgraceful production values. You soon get to appreciate the massive gulf between the well-crafted (even if you don't like it) and the real chaff. I never hear modern recordings with such contrasts in quality. With modern stuff, you either like it, you don't, or you might if you fancy digging deeper. But don't say "it sucks". Unless you mean Crosby and Sinatra. And I'll ad hominem to death anyone who says a single word against Carly Simon.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 09:46 AM

And, boy, could those guys sing!

Monkees - Riu Riu Chiu


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 09:50 AM

Hi Steve

I used have have many arguments with my father many years ago about Crosby and Sinatra.

He used to criticise Sinatra saying that he was a newcomer and as a singer he just didn't even approach Crosby as a vocalist. "New rubbish" he used to say.

I think that we both knew in our minds that both were great but we would never have admitted it to each other. We used to argue in the same way about Gigli and Carusoe.

I kept up my admiration of Sinatra and I think I have copies of all his recordings.

But IMHO the early Sinatra stuff was much better than the later stuff despite the improvements to sound recording etc etc.

cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 09:51 AM

I'm quite happy that people have opinions, and that they're just as valid as mine, but I prefer to see the opinions based on something more than broad-brush prejudice.

It's really sad that people, mostly quite senior ones, give blanket condemnation to entire genres or eras of music with comments such as "it's all just noise" or "it all sounds the same"....just like our parents condemned our own choices of listening material without even taking the trouble to actually investigate what we were listening to as opposed to the very limited sub-set they heard on mainstream media.

I vividly remember in my mid-teens promising myself that if I ever had children, and when I grew old, I'd keep an open mind about whatever music was current, and treat songs and tunes on their own merits. I've often felt that I haven't properly lived up to that promise, but seeing some of the comments here, I actually feel that I haven't done too bad, considering, in leaving my mind open to changes. So many of my contemporaries seem to make a virtue out of never approving of any music written after about 1976!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 10:34 AM

Samuel Johnson nailed the problem when he said, "Much may be made of a Scotchman, if he be caught young." Our brains imprint norms when we're children. We see that carried out with prejudices, culture, foods and certainly music. Much classical music is awesome. Certainly none could say that Mozart was a hack, and certainly none could say that many folk singers/rock singers match Mozart's musical genius. That said, I will say that a few hours of Shostakovich would leave me cold. Likewise, some people hate Dylan's work; I'm not one of them.

Our ability to recognize genius does not mean we will like it or respond to it. I had a teacher years back who loved Mahler's Ninth. He argued that it was the greatest piece of music ever written, etc. I asked him why and he lent me a vinyl recording of it for a weekend. I listened twice and just didn't hear what he heard in it. But frankly folks, Mahler's music isn't garbage despite the fact it doesn't reach me.

I would be disappointed were anyone to listen to this rendition of a Chinese folksong and say it's 'bad'. Remarks like that are meaningless. For me, the erhu stirs some part of my "my cerebellum or maybe the medulla oblongata" (thank you leeneia) and it works for me. I don't nor will I insist it work for you.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 11:48 AM

There's a lovely old interview with Peter Bellamy on YouTube in which he's sitting in front of his legendary cassette collection. Check round about the 3.58 mark where the camera pans off to take a closer look...

Peter Bellamy VHS - Part One : The Interview

...Folk Erudition enriched by Pop Eclecticism!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 12:04 PM

Classical music has been my first love since I departed from teendom. But it's taken me over forty years to appreciate Sibelius and Stravinsky. Having now arrived at those two (and a few others to boot), I now see what towering masters they were. Mahler leaves me stone cold, though once, when in my twenties, staying at Ratagan youth hostel one Easter when there was hardly anyone else there, the warden got us all pissed and I remember (hazily I admit) hearing the Kathleen Ferrier version of Das Lied Von Der Erde on his record player and being transfixed. Could've been the booze, but, treasured memories...

The warden and his missus were John and Jan Fisher. They have an art gallery in Scotland now, I believe. We still have two of her paintings on our wall.

I'll never agree about Sinatra, but I have some lovely recordings of Peter Dawson singing lighter songs and I'm also rather fond of Count John McCormack, even though his dad once had a fist fight with my great-grandad over the factory foreman's job. We lost.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: kendall
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 12:20 PM

Steve, I have been a lover of "Classical" music since I was 10 years old.
In my, not so humble" opinion, Beethoven's violin concerto in "D" as played by Jasha Heifetz is one of the most beautiful sounds ever made by humans. You may prefer Brahms, fine, I have no problem with that. Opinions are like ass holes. we all have one.

I think Segovia was the greatest guitarist that ever was. My brother would say, Chet Atkins. Never argue with someone whose opinion you don't respect

Punk, yes post my opinions here, so? I would never say, "You are full of shit, Tom Mix could out draw Hoot Gibson any day."
That is from one of the stupid arguments that Ralph Kramden and Ed Norton had. That's how silly arguments over opinions can get.
I hope you get the point.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 12:31 PM

I'm right with you on Beethoven's violin concerto. The epitome. I have several versions. Try listening to the second movement of his quartet in E flat, op.127, the adagio ma non troppo e molto cantabile (the second movement). You need nothing else to do for twenty minutes and, preferably, a glass of malt whisky in hand.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 12:34 PM

kendall - yes of course we all got opinions...

I tend to keep my negative opinions / value judgements
on the worth of other musicians' creative work
to myself..

..if I don't like something, I usually can't be bothered wasting precious time bitching about it in public...

Life's to short..

I much prefer talking up the positive aspects of music/art I do like,
and hope in return to learn about other good stuff I never knew of before.
That's the beauty of a forum like mudcat.

Cool people sharing cool ideas about music and artists worth investigating....

[seeing as I said "cool" twice.. let's risk saying "groovy" as well..

That's what happpens when folk mention The Monkees....😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 12:35 PM

Hadn't seen that Bellamy interview before. Eyes still a bit damp from hearing him say the bit about what he would do "when my voice gives out in old age". If only... A dear friend. Still miss him.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 12:41 PM

Sinatra peaked in about 1943, and imo was greater in 1943 than Bing was. From about 1946 on, Sinatra sang less on-pitch than Bing did.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 12:41 PM

Talking of violins: if you don't know Saint-Saens' exquisite Introduction and Rondo Cappriccioso in for Violin and Orchestra, Op 28 -- perpend:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HQyXWkABo0


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 01:08 PM

Punkfolkrocker said "I tend to keep my negative opinions / value judgements on the worth of other musicians' creative work
to myself.."


I appreciate that. I've liked all sorts of music over the years. I've recently been listening to some metal because I know a guy in a band, and I was surprised how much I like this guy's band. Good is good, no matter what genre it is. I loathe the fact that I have to watch what I say depending on who's around. I think my chance of feeling out of place would be less if I showed up at one of their gigs. (No head bangin', but hey...)


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 01:52 PM

By the way, #, you haven't lived until you've heard "Turkey in the Straw" done on erhu.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 02:05 PM

On noise, music and non music (Wayne and Shuster):


Non music music 


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 02:39 PM

Kendall Morse is one of the great masters of folk music. He deserves a bit of respect here


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 03:06 PM

Guest was me Olddude


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 03:18 PM

That gets me too, Michael. Be sure to check the rest of it - Bill Brown & Old Paint:

Peter Bellamy VHS Part Two : Two Songs


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 04:48 PM

Speaking of The Monkees I've got a couple of Nesmith solo albums and to tell you the truth I think he's a fine songwriter and performer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBQUvL0RQY8


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 04:51 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSgB338VfIs

He wrote this one too.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 05:33 PM

An interesting piece on Nesmith.

Michael Nesmith on Arts And Minds 


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 05:38 PM

Thanks for that heads-up, Sean. Fancy finding Chris & perfidious Anthea[!!] on one of the videos that follow those two. Shall follow up tomorrow with that Crude Apache production of The Transports that the Two Sea Songs vid segues to -- 1¾ hours so a bit late for tonite!

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: cnd
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 07:11 PM

Just saying punkfolkrocker...

"I tend to keep my negative opinions / value judgements
on the worth of other musicians' creative work
to myself..

..if I don't like something, I usually can't be bothered wasting precious time bitching about it in public...

Life's to short.."

So what have you been doing about Kendall this whole time, bitching or praising?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 08:27 PM

neither !!!!😫


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 15 Apr 15 - 09:44 PM

Gotta strongly disagree with Joseph Scott, Sinatra didn't peak until the '50's when he recorded Nelson Riddle arrangements for Capitol. To me that is when he came into his own as a great singer.

I Guess I'll Have to Change My Plan

Thanks for that link #. That Chinese song was beautiful.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 04:48 AM

Hi Gillymor

I guess I agree with you.
For me personally however the Sinatra early songs were the best. Laura,Nancy With The Laughing face and Dancing on The Ceiling etc.

But you are right in that the allegiance with Nelson Riddle opened up a "new Sinatra" to the wider public and so he was far more widely accepted.

Regards MikeL2


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 05:19 AM

Kendall Morse is one of the great masters of folk music. He deserves a bit of respect here

Respect where respect is due, Old Dude. On the evidence of his contributions to this thread I find it hard to believe he's even the master of his domain let alone anything else.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 07:40 AM

"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard a horse sing a song."
― Louis Armstrong


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 07:50 AM

"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard a horse sing a song."
― Louis Armstrong

.,,.

"A dreary axiom!"
— Bert Lloyd

Fancy anyone digging that old load of bollox up at this time of day.

Ever hear a horse read an epic poem? So is Paradise Lost a folk ballad? Or seen one dance in the ballet? So is Swan Lake...

Oh, go away!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 08:06 AM

Hi MikeL2,
In his Capitol years Sinatra did sing a lot of great songs from "The Great American Songbook" by Cole Porter, Rogers and Hart, the Gershwins etc. as well as introducing newer "hits" from from the likes of Sammy Cahn, Johnny Mercer and Jimmy Van Heusen.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 08:07 AM

Thank you, Gillymor. Ol' Frankie was a giant in terms of his voice. I agree he hit big time after Nelson Riddle. His days with the Hoboken Four back in the '30s were not his best, imo. Here's a clip I expect you've heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BM5O_elYnU

However, it's impossible to hear that and not smile. But when we listen to his later material it's much easier to see the talent and vocal control he had.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 08:22 AM

Wow, #, I'll never hear "Shine" in the same way again. Dooley Wilson did a snippet of Shine in Casablanca that always leaves me wanting more.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 09:28 AM

LOL. I hear you.

I just found out that Frankie Laine had two top-ten hits with Shine. One was in 1948 and the other in 1957.

Here's the 1948 version.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 09:45 AM

"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard a horse sing a song."
― Louis Armstrong


Ah, but to hell with the neighsayers...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: kendall
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 09:46 AM

..master of my own domain? Huh?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 09:59 AM

""Ever hear a horse read an epic poem? So is Paradise Lost a folk ballad? Or seen one dance in the ballet? So is Swan Lake... ""

Nope, only folks do that (as Louis noted) ;)


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 10:02 AM

Thanks for the ;). The great point is that Satch was joking -- Pity so many took him seriously. Bet he grew sorry he ever said it.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 10:13 AM

Satchmo probably took greater heat from speaking up about other things, for example, against racial discrimination at Little Rock. Some folks wouldn't even play his music for awhile because of it.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 10:35 AM

Speaking of Satchmo and
Shine.

Django and the Hot Club smokin'.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 11:29 AM

That Django version makes yer pants want to get up and dance.

Gillymor, there is a really good Wiki article, single page, with the song's history. It was written back in 1910. There is also a neat intro to the song done by Ry Cooder--the lyrics of which may be found at the bottom of the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shine_%281910_song%29


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 11:33 AM

Ry Cooder's 'Shine' with his intro--1978


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 11:39 AM

A good smile deserves a laugh:

Laughing Song - Bob Skyles & His Skyrockets 


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 11:44 AM

Speaking of Satch and recording technology (which was touched upon at the beginning!). here's some Hot Fives from 89 years ago acoustically recorded straight onto wax. Still hot:

KING OF THE ZULUS by Louis Armstrong and his Hot Five


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 11:59 AM

#, Thanks for the links. The song had some interesting origins. I'm familiar with the Cooder version with the introduction and it reminds how many of the great songs from "The Golden Age of Song" and before had such wonderful intros that usually didn't make it onto the postwar versions of them. But Not for Me and For All We Know come immediately to mind.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 12:56 PM

Brief history of 78s and some stuff I didn't know.

It also addresses what Astray alluded to in terms of 'sound change' over time. I ended up there because of Gillymor's song references. Don't ask me how. Oh yeah, for any of you Ray Charles fans, the 'best' of his music is available on YouTube.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Apr 15 - 09:46 PM

Funny the direction that this discussion went--my response would have been that instrumental techniques, vocal styles, and instrumental arrangements changed a lot over
time--Jackie DeShannon sings Dark as a Dungeon , Gordy sings Dark as a Dungeon The Country Gentleman do Dark as a Dungeon Merle Sings Dark as a Dungeon Charlie Louvin Sings Dark as a DungeonThe Maddox Brothers and Sister Rose sing Dark as a Dungeon


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 05:02 AM

[Modern music] sounds so samey because its sole raison d'être is to make money, as a result it is soulless commercial drivel

This is one of those irritating statements that crops us from time to time on Mudcat, quite often from someone in the traditional folk world - this time from Dick Miles, as it happens - and it's interesting to read all the fascinating conversations in this thread so far which celebrate a wide range of musical tastes and genres so positively. They give the lie to that perspective, in my view.

Why is there such snobbery about songs which are written to earn a living? Of course there are the entrepreneurs who consider music as so much cash to be earned, and they've existed in one form or another down the centuries. But it would be a mistake to consider that, just because songs are written for money, all commercial composers have no soul, no heart, no emotion or no ability to comment on the human condition. "Oh, it's just Tin Pan Alley stuff" is a typical comment - thus obliterating, with one stroke of the pen, Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, Dorothy Fields, Irving Berlin, Al Dubin & Harry Warren, George & Ira Gershwin, Goffin & King, Ivor Novello, Sigmund Romberg, etc., etc. Hugely witty and talented people.

What idiocy. What does it matter if a song is written to earn a crust if the song itself touches someone's heart? "Brother, Can You Spare A Dime" is a product of "Tin Pan Alley", but that song resonates with me now as much as it did when I first heard it over 60 years ago - and probably as much as it did with audiences from 1932 onwards. And it resonates far more with me than a great deal of traditional stuff - which is not to say that I don't care for traditional songs, just that there can be - for me - as much in one as in the other. Soulless commercial drivel? Not in my book.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 05:31 AM

I seem to recall Dick dismissing Broadside Ballads for the same reason. Just as well the curators of The Axon Collection don't agree...

The Axon Ballad Collection


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 07:57 AM

The greatest art has been produced for money, at that. You don't imagine that Signor Buonarotti spent his time lying 65 feet up on his back at the top of all that scaffolding, at serious danger to his life and safety, because he so loved looking closely at chapel ceilings, do you? Or that Will would have spent all that time reworking old stories into new plays at breakneck speed to keep the audiences coming if the Burbages hadn't given him a groat or two for doing it?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 08:00 AM

Not you, Will -- the other guy!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 08:19 AM

"This is one of those irritating statements that crops us from time to time on Mudcat, quite often from someone in the traditional folk world"
Two-way street, this one.
Can't recall many 'pop pickers' praising ballads and folk songs in my time.
Personally I find 'pop-songs' particularly today's, somewhat vacuous and unappealing, mainly relying on effect (usually in the form of volume) rather than content. They certainly lack staying power - the industry relies on them having a sell-by date and being disposable when "the next big sound" comes along.
I realise that is my opinion, but it's one I expect to be able to express without being accused of narrow-mindedness - if someone can say that my music is boring and tedious, I'm perfectly within my rights express familiar pinions on music I am fed by the media wall-to-wall and day after day.
I don't think I know a folk song or traditional music enthusiast who doesn't listen to and enjoy other types of music.
Certainly not the case on the pop scene today, where the outpourings of the pop-music industry hold sway.
Here in Ireland we are now faced with the rather bizarre situation of a traditional music that has gained a huge following from young people on it's own merits, yet is still largely ignored by the media and the establishment.
There has been a long, uphill struggle by a handful of dedicated enthsiastic, to win a place in the sun for unadulterated traditional music - yet it is still largely ignored by the mainstream media who still fill the broadcasting hours with pop-pap, the songs usually being sung in that odd mid-Atlantic Americanese, the main support coming from a handful of local radio stations.
The arts establishment has gone some way in recognising its importance, but even there there are problems.
The Irish Times has produced three large supplements on music in Ireland, mainly aimed at classical and popular music, but nothing on traditional music that is now drawing many thousands of visitors into the country as cultural tourists.
Popularity of any art form relies heavily on public exposure - it's always been my opinion that, given a level playing field, traditional song and music could hold its own against any other form.      
To some degree, that has been borne out in Ireland can't speak for the U.S., but Britain hasn't even allowed it in through the main gate.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 08:21 AM

Or yet the great Davie Stewart who could never pass a queue without busking it for a capful of maiks. Legend records him busking the well-to-do audience to his own debut at Cecil Sharp House as they queued up eager to see Lomax's latest prodigy from the feral realms.

I've had the honour of working with several great and late lamented traditional singers and storytellers who were pretty shrewd when it came to the value of their craft, Sure didn't diminish it any, though I've had many an interesting blether on the matter, in the wee small hours after an impromptu ceilidh* over a dram or twelve of the creature...

In could be argued it's the monetary success of artists that will propel them to their greatest creative heights which otherwise they might never attain. Could Led Zeppelin have made Physical Graffiti if they were just doing it as a hobby? And I'm sure Henry Purcell was well rewarded for his drivel in his time...      

I wonder, does the great Dick Miles do it for the good of heath?

* From WIKI : 'Originally, a ceilidh was a social gathering of any sort, and did not necessarily involve dancing.'


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 08:23 AM

my latest anti war medley is isle of capri/love is the sweetest thing medley.

i get pissed off with all these would be Eric Bogles. Wilfred Owen was over there with a tin helmet a rifle and bayonet - what did he expect - a letter of congratulation from the Kaiser for killing his troops.

Whereeas Al Bowlly had been out done his gig, put his guitar in the case, switched off the satnav, and was having a bath - when Herman Goering dropped a bomb on him..


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 08:37 AM

Highbrow versus Lowbrow art - a false dichotomy....

As an undergrad I equally loved Joseph Conrad and H. Rider Haggard

So much so that I spent a year eagerly researching my dissertation
to demonstrate that Conrad was as much a failed jobbing hack magazine story teller
desperate for an income to pay the bills,
as Haggard was a failure as a high literature novelist...

Both had thwarted ambitions trying to do something the other was better at...

[unfortunately I had to leave out 2000 words of careful analysis because I only left myself 2 days
to write the entire bloody thing, and find a typist...]

Welllll.. that was over 30 years ago and at least I scraped a 2:2 pass
rather than completely failing my degree
as some had predicted because I was too distracted by music and girls...


So I got no problems whatsoever grooving to trad folk
and the Monkees and The Archies, and The Dead Kennedys, The Fall,
Van der Graaf Generator and Gentle Giant, Hank Williams and Roy Rogers, Steve Hillage & Gong,
Billy Fury and Bobby Vee, Betty Boo and The B52s, etc.. etc... etc.....
and many thousands of more etcs...

But best not ask me to name last weeks chart top 10
because I'm not too far away from 60 and inevitably transforming into a miserable old tosser...😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:01 AM

Can't recall many 'pop pickers' praising ballads and folk songs in my time.

Most music lovers I know tend to be an eclectic bunch with an encyclopaedic erudition in all matters appertain to Popular Music & beyond - including Ballads and Folk Songs, and their various purveyors both sides of The Revival.

That is never an issue - it's the Dick Mileses, Jim Carrolls & Kendall Morses of this world for whom pop music vacuous drivel that is the problem.

Yeah, Folk Music is okay - just Folkies you have to watch out for, those self-appointed guardians & gatekeepers of The Tradition who can spot the differences between the Eighteen Hundred and Fifty tunes in Chief O'Nell's Mo'I and have the neck to deride Hip Hop and (horrors!) Rap Music because it all sounds the same. Oh, the humanity!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:24 AM

A lot of 'vacuous drivel' at that, maybe. But one must never forget Theodore Sturgeon's indispensable principle of Science Fiction:-

···95% of SF is crap -- because 95% of everything is crap···

Infinitely & ubiquitously adaptable.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:32 AM

As an earlier guest said, I think the why is a product of tech and taste.

---

I think I've been through some of that before with you, pfr. I'm younger than you (51) and my own "cut off" from following (as opposed to being places where you sometimes hears some things) the charts is probably early 80s.

I'm not sure I undersand the high/low brow music bit. My mother plays classical piano and my father has classical tastes. My parents met queuing for a CBSO concert at the city hall in Birmingham. I was taken to a couple of concerts, eg. John Williams in St Asaph and both John Ogden (piano) and the WNO (doing Barber of Seville) in Llandudo - all of which I enjoyed although the opera probably more for the spectacle and to listen to on recordings, I can have a dislike of "squeaky squaky operatic sopranos!).

All the same, I largely (there have always been things I love) went off classical. What's probbly hardest to discern is how much of my later life at lest becoming more open to it is down to changing tastes and how much is down to my strained relationship with my father. I let things get so bad, (perhaps outside of staying a Norwich City supporter, and enjoying watching cricket... ) I didn't want to like things he liked. Childhood can be a muddle...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:43 AM

I'm glad I don't have the kind of 'tunnel hearing' that some seem to suffer from. I listen to all kinds of music from all kinds of genres and eras, and I find something to enjoy in almost all of it.

There's no such thing as bad music, IMHO - some is better, some is worse, but it's all good.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:54 AM

Jon - i'm a few weeks younger than Madonna and Prince,
and nowhere near as valuable to collectors as a 1958 Fender or Gibson...

Whenever, i list my 'likes' it's off the top of my head
as best as I can remember for the time of the day
and dependant on how tired and hungry I am...

Plus these days my memory and consistency & clarity of thought and expression
is crap compared to even 10 years ago...

It's bloody annoying when you can't remember something on the tip of your tongue..

I'm no longer exposed to and absorbing new music on a daily or regular basis,
because I've dropped out of the habit of keeping the radio on all hours,
or even following the Jools Holland TV show...

That's my loss..

But somehow, good new pop stuff still seems to percolate through to me
every now and then by accidental discovery on youtube,
and generous positive folks on internet forums pointing towards good emerging young artists...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 10:19 AM

"I listen to all kinds of music from all kinds of genres and eras, and I find something to enjoy in almost all of it."

Pardon me for riding your coattail, Backwoodsman, but ditto.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 10:44 AM

yeah... Backwoodsman has summed it up very nicely !!!!!

Put it in a past tense:

"I listened to all kinds of music from all kinds of genres and eras, and I found something to enjoy in almost all of it."

.. and that would do just about perfectly chiseled on a headstone when the time comes........😎


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 10:49 AM

Responding to the initial post purely in terms of FOLK music...

Based on what I hear on the mainstream folk outlets, eg specialist folk shows across the BBC, and albums by a lot of successful and up-and-coming acts billed highly on the folk festivla bills, I think it sounds so different because the sound of folk has been professionalized.

There's perhaps an irony there. In that from the 50s to the early 70s, folk actually sold a lot of records, yet was a lot less commercial in its sound, a lot rougher around the edges. And healthily so.

The technology/studio time wasn't there to ensure every single note was absolutely polished to perfection (thankfully), with all the dynamics of the music squeezed out in order to sound as loud as the pop records of the day.

However, this state of affairs does mean that when a musician pops up who doesn't care about all that, someone not interested in making perfect, polished, sanitized pop-folk, it really stands out. I of course refer to the noble few fighting the good fight, namely: Stick in the Wheel, Amy Annelle, Alasdair Roberts, Mary Hampton, Sharron Krauss, Cath & Phil Tyler and one or two others....


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 10:50 AM

"Most music lovers I know tend to be an eclectic bunch with an encyclopaedic erudition in all matters appertain to Popular Music & beyond"
The ones catered for by the media appear to be those who recognise no other form of music other than their own - as do those who choose what to present to the public.
there is very little indication of tolerance of folk music in Britain - the last sign of this was way back when the music industry watered it down and marketed it   
I do regard most pop music as vacuous drivel and make no apologies for doing so
I was as involved as any immature youngster in the pop-music of the day, but like Topsy, I growed!
Usually, I'm happy to live-and let-live as far as I am allowed to - not always easy when I have to carefully choose the shops I buy my jeans in for fear of having my ears bleed at the pipped music blasting out - banks, building societies.... whatever.
Any respect for the music of others must be a two-way street.
I welcomed the folk revival with open arms, both as a relief from the music industry and for the democratisation of music which gave us all a chance at artistic creation.
I too have a wide taste in music and do not regard it as having "tunnel vision" because I find myself not liking one particular type - to demand that I do is 'culture policing' of the worst kind - if I was a sheep, I'd stand in a field all day and eat grass.
Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 11:05 AM

Who could not love this recording?
Annette Hanshaw with Lang and Venuti and Adrian Rollini.

#, Funny you should mention Ray Charles, those Atlantic recordings, I Gotta Woman etc., were, to me, some of the best ever made.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 11:14 AM

Jim - I'd love to see you sat on the X Factor judges panel alongside Simon Cowell....

Seriously.. that'd be a major TV event to savour forever !!!! 😜

Jut imagine.. I bet you'd have a great time....
and hopefully get your own late night cult TV series out of it...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 11:19 AM

.. and again, definitely not joking.. I'd vote to have you replace that over obsequious knob Jools Holland...

Let's bring back some of the abrasive antagonistic edge of late 70s alternative music TV..😎


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 11:46 AM

Thanks for posting that Annette Hanshaw link, Gillymor-she was one of the greats, and I love that she's been rediscovered.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 12:31 PM

"I wonder, does the great Dick Miles do it for the good of heath?" no not for heath,
but i do it for my health, definitely, if i never had another gig again, i would still be sitting down playing for my own enjoyment and health.
the amount of money i make, is very little, i could havebeen a singer of pop songs , but i chose not to , i have no regrets.
songs that are written for money in my opinion are reflected in their lack of passion and commitment, that is my opinion, and i think that is reflected in the pop parade of the 21st century.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 01:00 PM

"This is one of those irritating statements that crops us from time to time on Mudcat, quite often from someone in the traditional folk world - this time from Dick Miles"
I am sorry you find it irritating, you are someone who puts up clips on you tube for the benefit of others, and you have no intention of making money from them, I thought you might understand. the majority of people in the UK FOLK REVIVAL play that kind of music because they love it , they do not make much money from it, and in fact would make a lot more money from playing other forms of music.
I would also put forward this argument, that modern popular music has degenerated in the last 50 years, in my opinion there seems to be much rehashing of chordal progressions and banal lyrics, but in the last 50 years, from 1963 onwards there has been even more commercialisation of popular music, the initial impact of the beatles has not been reproduced by anyone, perhaps with the exception of ian dury, we seem to be at a point where hooklines jingles and catchy riffs are the be all and end all, why? because it sells, because the machinery of promotion post beatles has accelerated many times, coomercialisation may not be the only reason, it may be that the breakdown of communities is another reason, if will fly thinks this is idiotic, Iam happy to be called an idiot like my moniker GSS


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 01:05 PM

" I'd love to see you sat on the X Factor judges panel alongside Simon Cowell"
I wonder why - I detest all forms of competitive performance and certainly would not be part of anything that smacks of winners or losers.
I often wonder what you people are on.
If I were to suggest that there was something wrong with you if you didn't like big ballads or Sean Nós style singing, or, for that matter, Shakespeare or Dickens or hardy ot Eisenstein films..... or anything that happens to turn me on, we'd be deafened by the cries off "folk police" or "elitism", yet you clowns feel free to tell me I have tunnel vision because I say I don't like what you do. - extreme arrogance verging on jackboot culture - "how dare you not like what we do?" - very disturbing.
THe problem I find with most pop songs nowadsays is that thye are not around long enough to deceide whether you like or don't like them - as I said, no staying power.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 01:11 PM

Subject: BS: Why does modern folk sound so different
From: cnd - PM
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 11:34 AM

I don't understand why modern folk, country, bluegrass etc sound so different? Not different songs/styles, but artists doing covers of classic songs, even when they try to sound the same, almost always are pretty noticeably different. I have a couple guesses, one being that the use of multiple mics allows greater instrumental pickup, and a second that also revolves around mics, but this time that the mics are better and pick up more song.

But the instrumentation isn't the only difference. Another big thing I've noticed is the singing. I'm still trying to put my finger on it, but I think it's that it sounds clearer. Also, maybe more female vocalists. Anyone else have some clues?"
To answer the original question, because it has got further from its roots, it was originally music that people made for their own entertainment, artists trying to cover classic songs[ whatever that is], i presume you mean songs with a strong connection to roots?it is inevitable that for a song to have a massive commercial appeal it has to be altered in content so that it gets further from its roots.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 01:30 PM

Well, pop music encompasses the good, the bad and the ugly, for sure, but if you really think that only the Beatles and Ian Dury have made an impact then you haven't been listening. Tune in to Sounds of the Sixties on Radio 2 tomorrow morning. You'll hear good stuff and you'll hear dross. You'll hear banal lyrics even in the good stuff. Plus ça change. The Beatles could be as banal as anyone. Daddy our baby's gone. I've been doing some more of that editing of pop songs for our dance teacher this morning. I'm stunned by the superb quality of some of the stuff I hate. That's MY problem! Anyway, I don't care what anyone thinks. Everything's good with somebody. But say one word against Carly and you're dead. Or Mama Cass, come to think of it. By the way, Mozart was desperate for money when he wrote The Magic Flute. All his greatest piano concertos, and they are many, were written for him to play at subscription concerts. Beethoven's Choral Symphony was a commission, paid for by the Royal Philharmonic Society.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 01:38 PM

"I often wonder what you people are on."

Well right now Jim, I'm on a bright sunny start of the weekend vibe,
despite being stuck in the house with a touch of irritable bowel...

You do respond well to a little tongue in cheek gentle piss-take provocation,
always writing something interesting, worth reading and thinking about.

Which is why I, at least, hold you in high regard,
even though there's much about music we could find to amicably [to a point ?] disagree about...

.. and I can easily imagine a TV music show format where a bloke like you
could be an excellent curmudgeonly pop music presenter
as an antidote to all the anemic corporate presentation and arse licking
of the likes of Jools Holland...😜

I'd definitely watch it...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 02:02 PM

Quite possibly much of what many folks like in music is relative to a significant period, or positive social experience in their youth? Music purists may try and make it seem more than that, as do music historians and those seeking a piece of music's impact on society. It kinda reminds me of newly retired old folks driving around in the dream cars, (or motor cycles) of their youth, hoping to recapture a tidbit of the glory days of their good old past.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 02:26 PM

Steve Shaw, you play your harmonica, because you enjoy doing something creative, of course you would accept money when offered, but making money is not your prime objective, do you agree?
Van Gogh made no money, but produced wonderful art, Charlie Parker produced a new form of jazz, he did not do it for commercial benefit. Bix Beiderbecke played in paul whitemans orchestra to earn money, but in his spare time created wonderful jazz.
did john lennon write give peace a chance to make money?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 02:38 PM

"You do respond well to a little tongue in cheek gentle piss-take provocation,"
happens far too often to be ignored, quite often, far from gentle.
I really do have no problem with people not liking what I like, it becomes a little boring to be given down the banks for not liking what they like - no offence taken otherwise.
Far to nice a day - wonderful weather and we've recently been told that there are plans afoot by the County Library website we've donated our Clare song collection to is to be used in local schools to teach kids about their local song tradition - with a singer-in residence as teacher - happy days!!
Sorry about the IBS - been there, done that
Jim Carroll
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/songs/cmc/index.htm


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 02:39 PM

Mozart,when Mozart wrote his music, nobody but Mozart had artistic control over his music, I agree he was commissioned on occasions to write music, and he had an idea of the kind of music his patron might like, so to a minor extent he was working under a tiny constraint,
But unlike modern 21st century pop music, he had no creative interference from producers or record companies, HE HAD ALOT OF ARTISTIC CONTROL it is rather like comparing chalk and cheese


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 02:48 PM

What is exciting about the current period, and technology, is almost everyone has such a broad choice in music listening via the internet. I frequently listen to various internet radio stations (such as Last FM) search you tube libraries and other sites and discover a treasure of music from the past- and also new indie and international music and very talented musicians.

These technologies have opened the doors for many new and inovative talents who do not meet the industry mold/mould and possibly would not have accepted and promoted by the $ corporate music interests of the past. This opens the door to innovation.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 03:27 PM

Speaking of new music sounding very different, has anyone listened to Vivaldi played by Red Priest. Fabulous interpretation.
   One of my favourite genres is opera, but whenever I say it, I get called an "elitist", and that drives me round the bend. Was there ever a singer like Maria Callas ?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 03:51 PM

I also love opera, HiLo - and jazz, and blues, and Southern soul, early country, rock'n roll, funk, ragtime music-hall - and yes, I've heard Red Priest playing Vivaldi - and liked it immensely. There are people on Mudcat who say they dislike opera, or perhaps jazz or hi-hop, perhaps. I can live with that - each to his or her own - as long as those same people accept that the genres they happen to dislike are the same ones that thrill other people.

It's the sneering and contempt for some types of music that's shown here sometimes that pisses me off. It's possible to dislike some music personally and, at the same time, accept its validity to other people.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 04:10 PM

Amen, Will.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 04:32 PM

There is some music that I find unapproachable. I really do not hear music in a lot of modern classical, modern jazz and rap. I think I usually manage to separte that from suggesting no one else has the rights to like any of it but I can be clumsy at times...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 06:40 PM

I confess to a certain difficulty getting too far into 'classical' realms, though I'm very happy in the baroque - Red Priest, great fun - but what happened to BBC4s Early Music Show? They featured a lot on there. Talking of Vivaldi and great singers, my socks are still blown off by Cecilia Bartoli's Vivaldi Album from 1999:

Cecilia Bartoli: Anch'il mar par che sommerga (Vivaldi)


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 06:46 PM

Oh yes, Cecilia bartoli....just fabulous. I have all of her albums. When I am home alone I push them full blast..::.and I sing along, that is why I am home alone!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 08:00 PM

PUNK ...I like your postings....

In regard to this thread:

The, One, Four,Five.....got diminished....and augmented...and the blues/jazz were born...

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Drunk enough....stoned enough....both the player and audience consider the experience "Genius."


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 08:58 PM

"It's the sneering and contempt for some types of music that's shown here sometimes that pisses me off. It's possible to dislike some music personally and, at the same time, accept its validity to other people."
I am not interested in the validity of Cliff Richard to the people that like him, why should I be, are Cliff Richard Fans Interested in Nic Jones, unlikely, if that pisses you off Will Fly, that is your problem, enjoy being pissed off


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:08 PM

"are Cliff Richard Fans Interested in Nic Jones"

YES !!!! I definitely am....😎

next question please...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: ripov
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:16 PM

Good Soldier Schweik - If I can lift your point about Mozart, yes he had only himself and his patron to please; but his patron would be partying with his mates at the weekend, and would know exactly what the scene was, so that what he wanted from Mozart was something fashionable and new, but not so new that no-one could "get" it, to impress visitors when they partied at his house. And Mozart would be familiar with the sort of music his contemporaries were writing, and with popular songs and dances. So he wasn't writing in a vacuum.

Each composer, each songwriter, builds on what has been before, adds their own input using new techniques, or new instruments if there are any; and produces a sound not necessarily totally individual (except to a specialist), but very typical of the period in which he or she wrote. So that usually a piece of music popular or classical can be dated within thirty or forty years or even closer, by its style, even if you've no idea who wrote it.

So perhaps modern music SHOULD sound different.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: olddude
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:21 PM

I like both types of music, country and western

From the blues Brothers


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 15 - 09:25 PM

Good Soldier Schweik - and quite possibly, Nic Jones himself...???

"Nic Jones was born on 9 January 1947 in Orpington, Kent. He first learned to play guitar as a young teenager
and early musical influences included such artists as The Shadows, Duane Eddy, Chet Atkins, Wes Montgomery
and Ray Charles.
"


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 03:15 AM

"It's the sneering and contempt for some types of music that's shown here sometimes"
Not just here
I get pissed off when I find people referring to "long, boring ballads" and "finger-in-the-ear singing" - doesn't stop it happening though.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 04:11 AM

Jim, I would totally agree with that - there's no need to dismiss a musical form because one doesn't happen to like it, and that kind of sneering is just stupid. Live and let live.

Dick, you're not getting the point. You don't have to have a jot of interest in Cliff Richard, or the people who like Cliff Richard - or Nic Jones, or the people who like Nic Jones. Neither of those performers may interest some people - but there's no need to be pejorative about it. Accept that all music has some meaning somewhere and let people have their fun - after all, you don't have to listen to it if you don't want to.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 04:22 AM

Spot on once again, Will.
Couldn't put it better myself.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 05:15 AM

"and that kind of sneering is just stupid. Live and let live."
Sneering at the examples I gave a fairly common - they have even eveolved their own vocabulary for doing so.
It seems such behaviour only 'brings down the wrath of god' it's applied to "my particular taste in music" - double standards or what?
There is very little argument of why pop music should be beyond reproach - my own points, that it is manipulated by a profit-making industry, that it is loud to the point of health damaging and that it dominated our media at the expense of all other forms, has been largely ignored.
Instead, we have "how dare you insult my music"
If I were in any way cynical;, I would take that as a sign of deep insecurity - but that's me.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 05:33 AM

The point is surely that we are all free to refrain from listening to music that doesn't appeal to us, and even to specify the reasons that it doesn't: for example, I always smile at the description (anyone know whose?) of Modern Jazz as "Variations on a non-existent theme"; and I genuinely can't see the point or purpose of atonality.

But what is unacceptable is surely the tone that some people adopt that their tastes in music make them somehow morally superior to those whose likings happen to be different. I fear there is an awful lot of such attitude about; and indeed that the best of us may be liable to fall into such unworthy animadversions from time to time. But let us all try to curb such tendencies so far as we may.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 05:48 AM

Michael - the Voice of Reason - as ever.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 06:08 AM

Michael and Will - the voices of reason.....and Truth!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 06:12 AM

"morally superior to those whose likings happen to be different."
Can't really see that this has happened here (certainly not from me anyway)
I have given my opinions o modern music on a thread which is basically about peoples feelings on modern music.
I've gone further and commented on the effects that modern (pop) music has on the music I believe to be important - don't see that as being morally superior in any way.
The monopolising of the outlets of music by the pop music industry presents those of us who believe that other forms deserve an equal airing with problems I believe are worthy of discussion on forums such as this.
If this cannot be done without ruffling feathers (as seems to be the case), then we may as well not bother.
As someone who finds himself fairly regularly at the receiving end of so much unpleasantness regarding the music I'm involved with, I'm a bit gobsmacked at the amount of double-standard hypocrisy at play here.
Dear - dear, who'd have thought it!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 06:35 AM

Big - er - Modern Jazz fan here, if that's the term we're looking for. I think I prefer Free Jazz, though a lot off my cherished old vinyl bears the term New Thing, but it's all rather old, like a cherish thing by Albert Ayler from 1964 called Prophecy which was recorded in (gulp!) 1964.

ALBERT AYLER ~ Prophecy

This music thrills me like old recordings of Harry Cox, Joseph Taylor or Hoyt Ming & his Pep Steppers.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 06:43 AM

I genuinely can't see the point or purpose of atonality either, but that is not to say it doesn't have a point or purpose, as I'm sure Michael would agree.

Dick, Mozart had to please his paymasters until the last ten years of his short life, then he had to scratch out a living (not make a fortune) during the rest of his life, hopefully writing music that would get bums on seats in the venues he had to hire. The fact that he did all this without compromising his artistic integrity is testament to his genius, especially when you consider that he was hopeless with money and had money worries and indebtedness all through his adult life. It would be ludicrous to assert that he wasn't constantly thinking about money when he composed. Beethoven was obsessed with money and frequently held that the world was out to cheat him. You can produce good art and still make money. You can produce good art and die in penury. You can produce what you and I might consider to be rubbish and make pots of money. But someone else doesn't see rubbish where you and I might see it. The outcome of our constantly disparaging stuff not to our taste is far less desirable than the outcome of our just shutting up about it. After all, it can't hurt us.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 06:47 AM

As someone who finds himself fairly regularly at the receiving end of so much unpleasantness regarding the music I'm involved with, I'm a bit gobsmacked at the amount of double-standard hypocrisy at play here.

Not from me either, Jim - not to my knowledge anyway. And let me explain my position vis-a-vis the traditional music you're involved with.

I don't believe for an instant that any particular form of music deserves an airing - any more than any other art form has a right to be heard over any other. And I have interests in many forms of music that get even less of an airing than yours. (Heard of Rina Ketty? Iosif Ivonovici?) So I've no axe to grind either way. As far as traditional music is concerned, I have little interest in folk songs, but a huge interest in folk tunes. I don't listen to ballads if I can help it - not because I'm not interested in ballads per se - but because I prefer to read my way through them in the comfort of an armchair with a glass of something nice at my elbow, rather than have someone sing them to me.

Just my preference. Tunes are a different matter. I can lose myself for hours in reading the music, listening to it, learning new stuff, practising it and playing it with friends to the point of oblivion - and will continue to do so until I'm dropped, together with my instruments, into a hole in the ground. The fact that very little of what I play gets any airing at all in "media outlets" - whatever they are - is of absolutely no consequence to me. I couldn't give a toss. I love it - my mates love it - and I even get to play it in public - that's all that matters.

PS: Just read Sean's mention of Hoyt Ming & His Pep Steppers - yea!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 06:48 AM

Bugger italics...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 07:15 AM

it is my opinion that the music of westlife and other boy bands is written purely for commercial purposes, in my opinion it is typical of modern music written for a purely commercial purpose, it lacks any kind of passion. compare this music to an older form of music which was ORIGNALLY performed for self expression the blues [ before that became commercialised] in my opinion one the blues when written as self expression had musical passion, compare it then to the waterd down derivative rock and roll[ r and r is ok but its further from its roots and it bloody well shows].
will fly , i will continue to dislike and criticise and be pejorative of modern commercial bland music pop, cliff richard fans have the same right to be pejorative of harry cox or nic jones.
and as for bland diver, who weighs in with a sarcastic[ great dick miles], and then muddies the waters with the suggestion that my reason for playing music is money , is well off the mark, yes i do play for money, i also regularly play publicly for nothing in a session, but my main purpose for playing music is because i enjoy it, if i never did another gig again i would still play music.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 07:19 AM

"Not from me either, Jim "
I'm aware of that Will, and often find myself respecting what you have to say without necessarily agreeing with it.
"I don't believe for an instant that any particular form of music deserves an airing"
I don't believe any music has a right to operate a monopoly at the cost of any other form, which is the situation which prevails at present.
As you have no interest in ballads, I don't listen to pop music if I can help it (not always easy with the arrogant assumption that this is what we all want to listen to.
My only interest in discussing modern pop music is in how it effects the musics I am interested in, I believe that is both detrimental and profound.
One of the problems with pop music is that it treated by those who control our cultural outlets and, to a great degree, by many of those who listen to it, is that it is 'the only music' - not the case.
I expect to be able to discuss that fact on threads like this without being accused of nastiness.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 07:50 AM

Just one minor correction, Jim - I don't listen to ballads, but I do like reading them to myself. It's a private pleasure.

As I never listen to the radio, and comparatively little TV, I don't get to hear much popular music either. But I read reviews of records in the press - or hear about them from other people on- and off-line and, if I feel urged, check them out on various web sites to get a small earful. Some of it leaves me cold, other stuff not, but that's my business.

Dick, you're absolutely welcome to like and dislike what you will - no-one has any right to call you out for doing so. But if you publicly continue to dislike and criticise and be pejorative of modern commercial bland music pop then don't be surprised if other people publicly disagree. This is, of course, one of the functions of forums like these. In the end, I believe, the arguments pro and con are counter-productive, and say more about the people making them than the music itself. I think I'd rather celebrate the things that give me pleasure than anything else, and leave others to do the same with their musical choices.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 07:51 AM

To me - mudcat is at it's best when folks like for example Jim and Will,
who I both hold in high esteem, can debate and disagree in an informed civilised manner;
whilst raising thought provoking points that can help readers form their own opinions either way on the subject.....


But mudcat is at it's worst when ill informed opinionated knobends
just bang on endlessly spouting prejudice
because it helps them to rationalize their stupidity,
and desperate need to feel superiority...

Here's simple general rule -

don't vociferously disrespect other peoples tastes in music,
and sneer at any genres you consider to be shite.


In the eyes of rational, reasonable observers,
it just makes you look like a completely avoidable intolerant pillock...😏


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 08:08 AM

"Bugger italics..."

Easy for you to say, Will Fly. I've been trying to make them for years.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 09:31 AM

What strikes me reading this thread is the same thing as the quarrels about religious beliefs.
The assumption that many people seem to have, that their own tastes and beliefs are the norm.
What we believe and what music, and foods we like come to that, are the result of our upbringing and experience of life.
Every person is unique,nobody's opinions are better than other peoples,just different and some times ill informed
Having said that society does need laws,rules and etiquette,to ensure life runs in a reasonably fair way.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 10:08 AM

""and some times ill informed""
The term is somewhat "fuzzy", but seems logical at a glance. IMO some folks often use this factor to shoot down the personal tastes, opinions and beliefs of others (those that they do not agree with)?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 10:27 AM

"I expect to be able to discuss that fact on threads like this without being accused of nastiness.
Jim Carroll"

.,,.

Of course. But looking back, I can't see anyone's having accused Jim, personally & specifically, of "nastiness" or anything similar. If, as may just be the case, he thinks I had him in mind in anything I posted above, in general terms, and which seemed to gain approval from Will, Backwoodsman, et al, then he is mistaken. No specific person was my referent. Can't help feeling that Jim may be squealing before being attacked -- a posture that generally implies a lack of certainty of one's own position, rather than any actuality.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 10:52 AM

I am going to call you on this one, Will-many of us know and love Rina Ketty, and all of us know and probably can play Iosif Ivonovici's famous melody (though I grant, most don't know his name)


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 10:55 AM

"I don't listen to ballads, but I do like reading them to myself. It's a private pleasure."
I didn't miss it Will - I deliberately didn't comment on it.
I tend to go along with Bronson, that a ballad isn't a ballad without a tune, and when it isn't sung
Ballad poetry can be fairly trite, even when recited badly, but I'm afraid that on the page, it remains dead for me unless I can think a tune.
I remember owning an LP of John Laurie (Corporal Frazer of Dad's Army) reading Child Ballads - thought it was a piss-take.
"I can't see anyone's having accused Jim, personally & specifically, of "nastiness"
You're probably right - thin skinned sometimes, and I certainly don't include you in the suggestion.
I do feel that the robust nature in which we discus (or don't discuss) "what is a folk song") is applicable to all discussions if it is to one.
Pretty certain of my position on this one though, having recently been driven out of the best restaurant in Dingle thanks to loud pop music which everyone was talking loudly over and nobody was listening to.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 11:05 AM

Jim, I would expect the music is loud to speed up clientele turnover. It seems to work.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 11:13 AM

Jim - Well yeah, that is a bloody dreadful experience to be blamed on a thoughtless numbskull restaurant manager
and a wider social 'cretin culture'..

.. but it's not Pop Music's fault per se ????

to paraphrase...

""Pop music Don't deafen People, People Do?"" 😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 11:27 AM

What I was trying to say by using the expression ill informed was their opinions could formed with incomplete or false information.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 11:43 AM

Good on you, Stim - someone else who knows and likes Rina Ketty! I only mentioned Ionovici because so many people associate Part 1 of "Waves Of The Danube" with Al Jolson, and think he composed it as "The Anniversary Song".

There's something about Rina Ketty's voice... As Noel Coward said in "Private Lives": "Extraordinary how potent cheap music is." :-)


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 11:59 AM

"Jim, I would expect the music is loud to speed up clientele turnover"
Whatever the reason, there is an arrogance that seems to assume that we need background music of any type in our lives.
It happens in Building Societies, Banks, when you are held waiting on the telephone....
Pat has mentioned it several times in our Local Building Society and Bank and has been told that the staff object to it, but it is insisted on by head office, who also designate which music is to be played.
Not acceptable, as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 12:06 PM

With you all the way on that, Jim. I have owned about a half dozen cars/automobiles in my life and never had a tape player or CD player installed in any of them. When I listen to music, regardless of type, I wish to be able to concentrate on it without interruption.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 12:24 PM

I completely agree Jim.

But I'll offer one exception where the background music is absolutely essential to the experience
and needs to be as loud as possible...

CARTERS' STEAM FAIR

If it ever travels and pitches near you...

A fantastic nostalgia experience, time travelling back to a vintage golden age
of an evening of dodgems and waltzers and thunderously loud steam engines and teddy boy Rock 'n' Roll...😎


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 02:38 PM

Mozart wrote good music , when he wrote it was not his SOLE intention to make money, that in my opinion is the difference.
MacColl, [in my opinion] stands out as a songwriter because he cared about social injustice, he could not have written as he did , if his SOLE intention was being commercial, the song that he wrote that became a number one hit was written with passion for his partner it was not written with the intention of being commercial , its success was an accident


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 03:17 PM

Mozart wrote good music , when he wrote it was not his SOLE intention to make money

So you knew Mozart, Dick? Conversed with him regarding his motivations? And he told you this?

Pathetic.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 03:36 PM

I remember owning an LP of John Laurie (Corporal Frazer of Dad's Army) reading Child Ballads - thought it was a piss-take.

Now that sounds like my sort of thing! Must check it out. Thanks for the heads-up, as they say...

I tons of old pre-folk Ballads Collections that mix up traditional (or 'Child' ballads) with all sorts of other popular narrative poetry of the time (Service, Kipling, Keats) - so taken in that sort literary context it all makes perfect sense.

Was it is this?

The Jupiter Book of Ballads

Just listened to the samples of Laurie's Usher's Well and Alison Gross and I'm beguiled!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 04:09 PM

Blandiver (Astray) - while you're here...

GAK are doing the VOX Double Deca analog delay well less than half retail,
discounted to £49 [ + £5 delivery] clearance...

Short & long delay combined..

There's a youtube demo of one being used with an MS20...

[instant Hillage & Gong style ambients...]

I've been patiently waiting for this kind of sale price..

just in case you are interested...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 04:18 PM

John Laurie had a long and distinguished acting career well before Dad's Army. Google him. (Not that I have anything against DA. Great programme. And I was at school, in the same Higher Schools sets in English, French & History, as Frank Williams, aka Rev Timothy Farthing, Vicar of Walmington-on=Sea.)

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 04:25 PM


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 04:31 PM

Cheers, PFR! I'm a big fan on the VOX delay lab. Looking out for a new something or other just now - will check it out...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 05:29 PM

"Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Ed - PM
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 03:17 PM

Mozart wrote good music , when he wrote it was not his SOLE intention to make money

So you knew Mozart, Dick? Conversed with him regarding his motivations? And he told you this?

Pathetic."
Pathetic? well if you believe that he wrote solely for the purpose of making money, please prove it, of course you cannot, neither can I prove it, BUT I have an opinion, and my opinion is that comparing Mozart with modern commercialised music of boy bands is like comparing chalk and cheese, firstly we are talking of different centuries, different artistic situations, Mozart had patrons, but he was not attempting to sell millions of cds etc to a vast consumer market, Mozart was also a talented composer, todays boybands in my opinion are talentless produced rehashers of hook lines riffs of overused chord progressions.
let me give you an example of another Classical composer J S BACH, a German composer and musician of the Baroque period. He enriched established German styles through his skill in counterpoint, harmonic and motivic organisation, and the adaptation of rhythms, forms, and textures from abroad, particularly from Italy and France.Bach's abilities as an organist were respected throughout Europe during his lifetime, although he was not widely recognised as a great composer until a revival of interest and performances of his music in the first half of the 19th century. He is now generally regarded as one of the greatest composers of all time.
Bach did not Compose his innovative music solely for commercial purposes, yes innovative.. he did not wish to be able to use equal temperament purely for commercial purposes.
now I will return to Mozart.
Mozart showed prodigious ability from his earliest childhood. Already competent on keyboard and violin, he composed from the age of five and performed before European royalty. At 17, he was engaged as a court musician in Salzburg, but grew restless and travelled in search of a better position, always composing abundantly. While visiting Vienna in 1781, he was dismissed from his Salzburg position. He chose to stay in the capital, where he achieved fame but little financial security.
he acheived little financial security, furthermore if you think he was attempting to be commercial at the age of five, I am afraid that it is you that is pathetic.
Mozart and Bach composed great music because they were talented, not because their sole aim was to be commercially successful, bands such as the spice girls and the monkees and westlife, which are bands that were formed with the sole reason of making lots of money and being commercially successful have produced rehashed bland, samey music that cannot be compared artistically to Mozart or Bach, why ? the reason is because they are commercial groups put together with the sole reason of being money making machines,this is reflected in their bland samey music.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 05:43 PM

IF anyone thinks Mozart aged five, in the year 1724 was composing for purely commercial purposes, then they are truly pathetic , noone needs to have a conversation with Mozart to understand that.
Mozart's first composition was Andante in C, which he wrote at age four or five, Mozart's earliest composition attempts begin with piano sonatas and other piano pieces, as this is the instrument on which his musical education took place. Almost everything that he wrote for piano was intended to be played by himself (or by his sister, also a proficient piano player)
SO NO SUGGESTION HERE.ED.T. that these were composed for commercial purposes is there?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 05:44 PM

I suspect different music serves different purposes. So, is it not reasonable that an evaluation would factor in the class of music and the intended purpose? Does rating disco, or dance music with the sane criteria as classical make much sense?

what is the purpose of music? 


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 06:54 PM

1957 scat-singing the "UAH-UAH-UAH" sound-now wasn't that truly different, way back?

Bad Boy 


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 15 - 08:35 PM

Er, Dick, Mozart was born in 1756. :-) I would also point out that your post of 03.17pm contained two sections of copy and paste, mixed in with your own, far less literate, contribution. It would have been nicer of you to have acknowledged this than to have us thinking that you'd penned the two sections yourself. Your later post about Mozart's earliest works is also full of inaccuracies, not the least of which is that reference to 1724. Sometimes, a bit of scholarship can help in debates.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 03:03 AM

my point is not made invalid, mozart aged 5 did not compose for the sole purpose of money what post of 3 .17?if you are re efrring to my post of 5.29, then if there are any inaccuraccies that is the fault of wiki,none of which invalidates my points
nothing that you have posted invalidates my main points. which is this Bach did not compose his great music solely for commercial purposes neither did mozart. they achieved renown through talent.
compare this to modern bands such as monkees, westlife, spice girls, these are manufactured groups put together solely for commercial purposes, their music is written to a formula, it is bland and samey and compares UNFAVOURABLY to the innovative music of Bach.and to the composotions of Mozart, modern boy and girl bands such as the ones i have mentioned are not put together because they are musically talented, the monkees were as far as i know the first band put together on this basis, compare their musical.compositions and music to the Beatles, THE BEATLES WERE A GROUP WHO WERE NOT MANUFACTURED PURELY FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES.The music of the Beatles is variable but some is good, what is the difference.. they had a bit of talent and could play a bit.
The principle that a band can be manufactured, produced and regardless of talent hyped and using songwriters whose only motive is making money will always produce commercial music lacking in innovation which will be bland and samey.
Steve Shaw, your attempts to score minor points about dates[ a late night tired posting] does not alter the fact that mozart composed his first composotion aged five and did not do it solely for commercial purposes.
Steve, in a debate sometimes it is advisable not to spend your time attempting to score points, and wasting time about acknowledgment of cut and paste, it merely shows that you are concerned with form not content.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 03:07 AM

Every Generation's parents have no doubt asked the same question.
The art is to try and understand Why does modern music sound so different and then musicle barriers will be brought closer and if we listen to young ones music they will listen to ours.
Grandad9


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 03:16 AM

It's an interesting question.

When I first heard Wheels of the World, recordings of Irish musicians who worked in America in the early years of the 20th century, I was astonished.

It was clearly Irish music, but utterly different to anything I'd grown up with: the cadence, the speed, the tone was quite different - it had a headlong rush that was astonishing. It might have been music by emigrants who'd spent a few generations on another planet.

The same with listening to klezmer from the 1900s, compared to modern klezmer, and to Romanian gipsy music from the 1900s, compared to modern Romanian gipsy music.

I concluded that different times simply have different musical understandings. The past is a foreign country; they do do things differently there.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 04:41 AM

I do listen to young musicians, from all countries and i am often impressed.
I would not classify the spice girls, the monkees, or any boy bands, as musicians they may attempt to play musical instruments, they may on occassion be competent, but they are producers of hyped commercial manufactured sound.
here in Ireland people still write songs about local events , these songs are not written with the SOLE purpose of making money for the writer.
now, let us take 3 score and ten, originally written to raise money for the survivors, the original is inferior to the current version which has been folk processed, now let us take the stephen foster song gentle annie, the australian folk processed version is suprio lyric wise although it still uses fosters fine tune.
Stephen Foster, was a commercial song writer, but he had talent, and the commercial situation150 years ago was different to how it is now, furthermore he derw uponroots that he was reasonably closely associated with.
for the benefit of SteveShaw the extract from wiki,please read carefully mr Scholar Steve Shaw.Early life and education

Foster attended private academies in Allegheny, Athens, and Towanda, Pennsylvania. He received an education in English grammar, diction, the classics, penmanship, Latin, Greek, and mathematics. In 1839, his elder brother William was serving his apprenticeship as an engineer at nearby Towanda and thought Stephen would benefit from being under his supervision. The site of the Camptown Races is 30 miles from Athens and 15 miles from Towanda. Stephen attended Athens Academy from 1839 to 1841. He wrote his first composition, Tioga Waltz, while attending Athens Academy and performed it during the 1841 commencement exercises; he was 14. It was not published during the composer's lifetime, but it is included in the collection of published works by Morrison Foster. In 1842, Athens Academy was destroyed in a fire.[citation needed]

Foster's education included a brief period at Jefferson College in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania, (now Washington & Jefferson College).[1][nb 1] His tuition was paid, but he had little spending money.[1] Sources conflict on whether he left willingly or was dismissed,[3] but, either way, he left Canonsburg to visit Pittsburgh with another student and did not return.[1]

During his teenage years, Foster was influenced greatly by two men. Henry Kleber (1816–1897), one of Stephen's few formal music instructors, was a classically trained musician who emigrated from Darmstadt, Germany, to Pittsburgh and opened a music store. Dan Rice was an entertainer, a clown, and blackface singer, making his living in traveling circuses. Although respectful of the more civilized parlor songs of the day, Rice and his friends would often sit at a piano, writing and singing minstrel songs through the night. Eventually, Foster learned to blend the two genres to write some of his best-known work.[citation needed]

In 1846, Foster moved to Cincinnati, Ohio, and became a bookkeeper with his brother's steamship company. While he was in Cincinnati, Foster penned his first successful songs—among them "Oh! Susanna," which became an anthem of the California Gold Rush—in 1848–1849. In 1849, he published Foster's Ethiopian Melodies, which included the successful song "Nelly Was a Lady", made famous by the Christy Minstrels. A plaque marks the site of Foster's residence in Cincinnati, where the Guilford School building is now located.

Then he returned to Pennsylvania and signed a contract with the Christy Minstrels. It was during this period that Foster would write most of his best-known songs: "Camptown Races" (1850), "Nelly Bly" (1850), "Old Folks at Home" (known also as "Swanee River", 1851), "My Old Kentucky Home" (1853), "Old Dog Tray" (1853), and "Jeanie With the Light Brown Hair" (1854), written for his wife Jane Denny McDowell.

Many of Foster's songs were of the blackface minstrel show tradition popular at the time. Foster sought, in his own words, to, "build up taste ... among refined people by making words suitable to their taste, instead of the trashy and really offensive words which belong to some songs of that order." Many of his songs had Southern themes, yet Foster never lived in the South and visited it only once in 1852, by riverboat voyage on his honeymoon on his brother Dunning's steamboat the Millinger, which took him down the Mississippi to New Orleans.

Foster attempted to make a living as a professional songwriter and may be considered innovative in this respect, since this field did not yet exist in the modern sense. Due in part to the limited scope of music copyright and composer royalties at the time, Foster realized very little of the profits his works generated for sheet music printers. Multiple publishers often printed their own competing editions of Foster's tunes, paying Foster nothing. He received $100 ($2,653 in 2012 dollars) for "Oh, Susanna" and barely made anything for his many other, popular songs.[citation needed]

Foster moved to New York City in 1860. About a year later, his wife and daughter left him and returned to Pittsburgh. Beginning in 1862, his fortunes decreased, and as they did, so did the quality of his new songs. Early in 1863, he began working with George Cooper, whose lyrics were often humorous and designed to appeal to musical theater audiences. The Civil War created a flurry of newly written music with patriotic war themes, but this did not benefit Foster. During this time he composed a series of Sunday School hymns.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 05:03 AM

All fine information but when did he meet Allen?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 05:26 AM

My posts on this topic, Dick, are full of relevant content. I happen to know a good deal about Mozart as it happens and when I see a post full of errors it tends to make me wonder what else I can trust that comes from you. As you were clearly consulting wiki about Bach and Mozart, surely it isn't asking too much of you to at least try to be accurate. Apropos of your opinions, I find your takes on the Beatles, boy and girl bands and the classical composers to be far too broad-brush and ill-considered, and too full of capital letters, to be worthy of further debate.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 06:40 AM

Steve,my take on the Beatles?What is broad brush about that?
I happen to know a lot about Bach and Mozart as well, but use pasting from wiki encylcopaedia for speed and convenience, none of which alters the fact that Mozarts compositions aged 5 were not composed solely for commercial gain., neither was the innovative music OF J S Bach, Bach was arguably one of the greatest composers and most innovative but his compositions were not recognised as such until after his death, he did not compose for the sole purpose of commercial gain, what do you say to that Steve Scholar Shaw?
having seen many of your posts I ignore a lot of what you say as well, many of your posts reflect a lack of an open mind,Touche ,
I trust nothing that comes from you other than posts about the harmonica, good night.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 06:59 AM

Fine, Dick. It's just that your opinions of modern pop music remind me of those "no wonder the country's going to the dogs" letters you get in the Daily Mail. Not that I ever read it except totally by accident, you understand.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 07:03 AM

Mozarts compositions aged 5 were not composed solely for commercial gain.,

Amazing at it may sound, Dick, but the various members of The Spice Girls, Monkees, Sex Pistols, Boyzone (etc.) weren't doing music for commercial gain when they were 5 either. Precocious, or otherwise, all musicians must learn their craft & pay their dues before taking their place in their given Tradition, in which commercial gain, or paying the bills, is part of the reality that shapes the musical landscape. In this respect there's no difference between Westlife and the Watersons.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 07:18 AM

Bach was a professional musician. His living, the maintenance of himself and his many dependents, depended on producing the music to deadline for his employers and sponsors; in particular the Elector of Brandenburg. What is that, Dick, for crying out loud, but writing for money (or 'commercial gain', if that is how you prefer to express it)? He was writing as a day-job, with little thought of fame or the regard of posterity, and doing so to the best of his ability as a good workman does.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 07:20 AM

Just as an afterthought - what was Papa Mozart doing from when little Wolfgang was about 6 years old? Why, travelling all over Europe from wealthy patron to wealthy patron, displaying his son as a child prodigy. Leopold had virtually stopped composing and was living off the proceeds.

Not that it matters in the end - the music is all that counts.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 07:43 AM

I don't give a Flyin' F**k what the motivations of a composer/writer/performer are - it's music, if it sounds good to my ears, it's good. And, as I said elsewhere, I can find something to appreciate and enjoy in most music.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 08:28 AM

I'm quite into Bach right now - at least bits of it. This past year I seem to have amassed various recordings of The Art of the Fugue & The Musical Offering both old & new for contrast / comparison. In realms of so-called Early Music a few years, I find, makes all the difference as new generations of musicians find something entirely new to say with any given piece of music. The art of renewal!

I also have John Elliot Gardiner's Music in the Castle of Heaven lined up for my next big read, though I keep getting distracted by Carl Sagan.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 08:42 AM

MGM you ARE missing the point, modern boy bands compose music as part of the consumer society, their sole aim is producing commercial music that will sell loads, Bach earned his living as an organist quite similiar to me earning my living as a singer, neither Myself or BACH produced our music for the SOLE PURPOSE OF MAKING LOADS OF MONEY.
Bachs innovation with equal temperament was not motivated by the desire to make vast inroads commercially, it was part of his creative artistic raison detre.
Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 06:59 AM

Fine, Dick. It's just that your opinions of modern pop music remind me of those "no wonder the country's going to the dogs" letters you get in the Daily Mail. Not that I ever read it except totally by accident, you understand.
the answer from a defeated debater, a deliberate misunderstanding of my point, I STATED THAT I DO LISTEN TO YOUNG MUSICIANS, so this attempt to smear me as some kind of backward reactionary is wide of the mark, I do not wish to listen to young or old musicians producing sounds that are motivated purely in the hope of making loads of money, why? because it is reflected in the music,commercialism leads to pandering to record companies whose motive is selling loads , result samey bland lack of experimentation, lack of excitement, do what the record company say ,the record company markets it with one object and that object is not musical merit it is loads of money.
to compare BACH to the spice girls or westlife, because Bach was a professional musician, is quite frankly ridiculous, they lived centuries apart in different circumstances, furthermore BACHS INNOVATION WAS NOT HAMPERED BY RECORD COMPANIES TELLING HIM WHAT TO PLAY.Bach had MUCH GREATER ARTISTIC CONTROL OVER HIS MUSIC AND YOU ALL KNOW IT.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 08:55 AM

You tell us that it's ridiculous to compare Bach with the Spice Girls and Westlife, but you don't mind comparing him with yourself: Bach earned his living as an organist quite similiar to me earning my living as a singer, neither Myself or BACH produced our music for the SOLE PURPOSE OF MAKING LOADS OF MONEY.

I look forward to your first set of cantatas and your "48", Dick. I know you won't be doing them for money so I promise to chuck 50p in your hat...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 09:00 AM

BIX BEIDERBECKE, great jazz musician, had to earn his living playing commercial music with the paul whiteman orchestra , but in his spare time in his own bands, produced brilliant jazz, that was innovative at the time, there was no room for innovation in whitemans commercial band, whiteman did not allow bix to have his artistic head, and so it goes on example after example of commercialisation stopping innovation, same thing with glenn millers band, and i haveclose of this experience my uncle nat peck played in glenn millers band and has publicly said that the music got jazzier[less commercial after millers death], miller was working to some extent to a commercial formula., not as exaggerated as the spice girls or westlife but stil putting constraint upon musicians, the musicians had littl;e artistic control


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 09:38 AM

Whiteman treated Beiderbecke extremely well, given the erratic nature of his lifestyle caused by alcoholism, keeping his seat open in the band while Bix was away. He gave lots of opportunities for his star musicians - Beiderbecke, Joe Venuti, Eddie Lang, Bing Crosby, Harry Barris, Frankie Trumbauer to play solos within the environment of what was, after all, a commercial dance band.

I was lucky enough, in the mid-'70s, to see and hear cornettist and journalist Dick Sudhalter's recreation of the Whiteman Orchestra on two occasions - the first at the Roundhouse in Chalk Farm, and the second at the Fairfield Hall in Croydon. Dick got hold of the original Whiteman arrangements, hired the cream of the UKs jazz musicians and presented the music complete with appropriate solo spots and small group performances. There were great moments, with plenty of opportunities, within the arrangements, for improvisation.

Which would actually have suited Bix as, according to biographers, his sight-reading was not particularly good.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 10:05 AM

Excellent post, Will. Sudhalter also co-authored a bio of Bix,"Bix: Man and Legend". A very good read.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 10:19 AM

How does doing an unaccompanied gig fit into this, when a club has a 'solo singer only' policy, taken by a performer who normally would use accompaniment? Artistic constraint to get the fee or artistic liberty and enjoyment?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 11:28 AM

GSS/Dick - so what's your edumacated opinion on quotation marks then...

do they still have any purpose in the modern world of wiki and cut'n'paste...???

yours truly, confused reader from South West England....😕


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 12:53 PM

Excellent post, Will. Sudhalter also co-authored a bio of Bix,"Bix: Man and Legend". A very good read.

Yes, I must get around to reading this one day. I keep remembering it, then forgetting about it!

What struck me the most about hearing the live Sudhalter orchestra was how incredibly full and warm the sound was - when for years I'd been listening to scratchy, slightly fluffy recordings of the Whiteman band, which was all that was available, of course. The sound in the Fairfield Hall was particularly "huge" - and hearing the original orchestra in the true Whiteman period must have been a wonderful experience.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 12:59 PM

for fuck sake , i never said whiteman treated him badly, I said that he   produced his best playing most innovative away from whiteman , but earned his living commercially with whiteman.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 01:10 PM

People seem to like what they like regardless the motivation that pushed the writer to create the piece.

Each to her own said the ol' lady when she kissed the cow.

Just to lighten the mood, here's a cut from Super Junior (aka SJ and SuJu). Sapphire Blue

BTW, I like this cut. Not so much the rest I've heard.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 01:25 PM

Took me a few seconds there to check that this thread is in the music section. Almost starting to read like the BS section in spots.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 01:31 PM

Nah, we're ok, honest!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 01:44 PM

right then...

late yesterday afternoon
[Saturday - if any cultural historians are researching this thread centuries ahead in the future]
the sun was streaming in through the front room window
and mrs punkfolkrocker was sat on the sofa singing along and waiving her arms in the air
to The Bay City Rollers greatest hits..

Now that's the happiest she's been all week after the stress of work
and knowing most of her sunday at home will have to be devoted to tying up reports and plans for Monday..

Today, 5 CDs of 100 1970's disco chartbusters
is helping maintain a buoyant mood while she types along...

I suppose I could suggest she tries Mozart or Bach instead...?????

Then again I want her to stay in a good mood for this evening.....😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 02:03 PM

I can visualize a Vonnegut inspired future with "purist" music police, forcing folks to listen to music they dont enjoy.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 10:52 PM

I agree that SOME pop artistes are in it for the sole purpose of making money. Mostly these are bands or artistes that have been created by the "Cowell machine" or similar.

However, that doesn't mean that ALL popular music was written purely for the purpose of making money, nor that many of the artistes making pop music haven't "earned their stripes" through an apprenticeship playing small venues, pubs and clubs.

What I was objecting to up-thread, and still am, is the trashing of whole categories or genres by blanket comments such as "it's all noise" or "it's all just crap produced for commercial purposes". That's simply narrow-minded bigotry.

I've seen many young bands, songwriters and singers developing....some go a more "folky" route, some into rap or hip-hop, some into indie-rock and some into commercial pop. These people almost all have at their root a common love of music and are absolutely not thinking solely (or in many cases at all) about "making loads of money". Most, even some very talented ones, don't "make it" commercially at all. Some have limited local success, some develop a bit of a nationwide (or even international) cult following, and a very tiny minority actually make it commercially.

To give a pertinent example. One band I've seen develop over the last 5 year or so is Elijah Wolf's "Gravity Drive"....basically himself and his wife Ava plus a couple of supporting musicians. Elijah writes catchy "art-poppy" songs and tunes....not because he thinks they'll sell, but because that's "what comes out of my head". He's a tireless worker, running open mic sessions in several towns in Devon and Dorset, and just has an immense love of music in many forms. He encourages people with initially low self-confidence to perform, he helps other people to refine their songs. Plays local paying gigs with the band whenever he can.

He's had a couple of songs picked up as "background" music on a soap opera, and the band finally self-recorded and released their own album late last year. He's been advised to go solo for a "better chance of commercial success" as individual singer-songwriters are "in" at present, but won't (and I do actually prefer his solo acoustic versions of many of his songs, personally). But the band's his thing.

After 5 years of hard work, the band's getting regular airplay on Radio 2 and 6 Music. Janice Long plays them a lot, as does Tom Robinson, and they've just done a live session with "Whispering Bob Harris". They MAY be on the brink of a modest commercial success.

But even if they become huge, the thing that drives Elijah and Ava isn't the prospect of making money, but their sheer joy in and love of making music and performing live. What they do might be quite "poppy" and it might not be to your taste, but to just lump them in a whole category as "being in it purely to make loads of money" is hugely bigoted IMO, and doing a great disservice to the many people operating in the pop genre who *are* doing it for love of music (albeit of a type of music you personally might dislike).


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 11:15 PM

A couple of versions of Elijah's "Cherry Ripe". Poppy? Sure. Not to everyone's taste? Fine. Written out of a love of music rather than for commercial "success"? Absolutely.

Gravity Drive Cherry Ripe Band Version


Cherry Ripe Elijah Solo Version


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Apr 15 - 11:38 PM

Rob - excellent post...

But in all reality you are probably addressing deaf ears.
Sadly, once such people's minds are made up - they are usually lost beyond hope to all reason.....

Though frustrating as it is, it is also highly comical
watching opinionated folks who are obviously clueless on a complex subject,
obliviously posturing and preaching on about it
as though they are great learned authorities...😜

Harmless bores and nutters, unless they attain positions of influence
where they can adversely affect the work of those whose creativity they scorn...

[I'd be surprised if a fair few here haven't at some time been held back or denied opportunities
because of the petty spite and jealousies
of prejudiced snobbish decision makers in the music, arts and culture business... ???]


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:28 AM

"MGM you ARE missing the point,"

No I am not Dick, you are.

"Bach had MUCH GREATER ARTISTIC CONTROL OVER HIS MUSIC"

No he didn't: he composed what the Elector of Brandenburg required.

You are thoroughly confused, Dick. But let it pass; I can't be fashed to knock my ☹ against this particular brick wall any more.

Best regards

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:41 AM

... or Leopold, Prince of Anhalt-Köthen, or whoever was his employer at the time. He made his living in the service of a succession of prominent and noble personages, and composed what they wanted for their sacramental or ceremonial purposes.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:03 AM

That's the beauty of music. It is an abstraction. Sure, it can be a vehicle for social comment but as a subject in itself can go from the creative to the sheer nostalgic.

I happily differentiate without meaning to. Radio 2 can easily provide a backdrop to my day, subconsciously drifting into my ears. Pleasant and non offensive yet doesn't stir me. That's not what background music is about.

I can listen intently to a bloody good guitarist in any genre but need to be listening as in "don't expect me to acknowledge anything going on around me." or at least not first time around.

I am not sure where this thread is going? It seems at times to have become a "I don't like something and I want to be offended." As some on here know, always happy to oblige on that score but it would be a little silly. I am sure we can all appreciate without liking? I love hearing musicians get their head around an old trad ballad and arrange it for a wider audience. Yet would I be as happy listening to a scratchy old recording of an old man singing it flat as a fart purely because of the provenance? Well no. But that doesn't stop me appreciating the small but real contribution the old lad made.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:59 AM

that's your lack of appreciation of traditional music showing Musket. the old lad wasn't singing flat as a fart he was singing in a modal scale. he was in fact more musically sophisticated than the likes of us - i think this is the main thrust of Bert Lloyds folksong in England.

nice to see Bix getting a mention. i wasn't keen on the Sudhalter book.
it gave a sort of apple pie and cookies gloss to Bix's early life.

i think Bix had to suffer more than most musicians - right from the off. Artie Shaw says some interesting stuff on the Bix website about the guy.

the books i liked were Remembering Bix, and Jean |Pierre Lion's book Bix:the definitive biography. Also we called it Music by Eddie Condon - all of which produce vivid images of the man.

Having said that Shaw blames Condon's hard drinking gang for being jealous of Bix's talent, and trying to bring him down to their level with the booze. It might have seemed like that - but I think Condon's appreciation of Bix was very sincere. Interestingly - they never seem to have recorded together. Eddy Laing being Bix's guitarist of choice I guess.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 04:43 AM

I love hearing musicians get their head around an old trad ballad and arrange it for a wider audience. Yet would I be as happy listening to a scratchy old recording of an old man singing it flat as a fart purely because of the provenance? Well no. But that doesn't stop me appreciating the small but real contribution the old lad made.

This seems to be the received wisdom of the revival. I find it a little sad - and not a little patronising. Personally, as far as so-called Folk Music is concerned, there is no greater joy than listening scratchy old field recordings of the old singers singing the old songs & ballads. They are real in a way well-meaning revivalists doing it for a 'wider audience' can never be.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 04:44 AM

this comment rather illustrates Jim Carrolls comment, an attempt to give an impression that old singers sing flat,Musket I have heard some young pop singers that cannot sing this is rather like the attempted smear by Steve Shaw, that I do not listen to young singers. I do I WEOULE RSCOMMEND BELLA HARDY AND LUCY WARD
I LIKE MANY FORMS OF MUSIC... jazz classical roots, wIZZ jONES if IT IS musical, but not if they are rehashing commercially manufactured formula music, age has nothing to do with musical talent, the spice girls are untalented now and will be untalented when they are 83


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 04:58 AM

I haven't said you don't listen to young singers. Stop attempting to smear me by attempting to tell me that I attempted to smear you when I attempted no such smear. I think that many good points are being raised in this thread, but, I must say, without attempting to smear you, that very few are coming from you.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 05:26 AM

The fact that the talents of the Spice Girls were not such as to appeal to Dick's tastes does not IMO make them 'untalented' tout simple.

Regarding 'traditional' singing techniques:- I recall a conversation between my late wife Valerie, who was not that much into folk tho appreciated my interest, & Nic Jones (who was a neighbour in Cambs at the time & we would regularly visit one another's homes), about those whom Valerie would sometimes dismissively refer to as 'the old boys': elderly traditional singers whose records I had received from Leader, Topic, &c, for review. "They are not meant to be 'entertainment'," Nic said; "but they are very important in any proper scholarly study of folksong". Valerie, who was a scholar and author herself in the literary field, immediately admitted that she saw his point.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 05:46 AM

The members of the Spice Girls clearly had the talent for singing in a way that appealed to a large section of the population, and for possessing the flair that enabled them to present a performance that many people found agreeable. I imagine that their particular singing and dancing talents were honed to fit that mould, but, undeniably, they did have some talent for singing, though not perhaps of the Callas variety. They are not up my alley by a long chalk, but all power to their elbows, say I. Come to think of it, Callas wasn't up my alley either.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 05:59 AM

"This seems to be the received wisdom of the revival. I find it a little sad - and not a little patronising"
Patronising - certainly (though I suppose "flat as a fart "is an improvement on Muskie's usual, "tit-trousers" ageist offensiveness, and if it reflects today's revival, then it confirms all my misgivings - it had no part in the revival I was ever active in.
Will Fly said earlier that he didn't believe "any other art form has a right to be heard over any other"
I've been giving this some thought and I find myself totally at odds with the opinion.
We've spent the last thirty-odd years talking to and interviewing our source singers on the part their songs played in their lives (not folkie romanticism, as you've written it off as in the past Jack - actual statements, all archived and accessible).
The inescapable conclusion that we've arrived at is that the singers identified with the songs as being "ours", and have spoken at length on how they see them, identify with their content and considered them an important part of their lives and their history.
The songs were not received passively, but were part and parcel of what was happening around them during the course of their lives - this one street town in the West of Ireland has produced well over a hundred anonymously-made songs made during the lifetimes of our singers, on local and national events, drownings, shipwrecks, murders, tragedies, political struggle........ - as one ninety-odd+ year-old put it to us last year, "If a man farted in church, somebody made a song about it"
That, as far as I am concerned, makes these songs unique and deserving of attention.
Given that the songs we recorded came from Irish land-labourers and small farmers, East Anglian artisans and fishermen and from Travellers - tinsmiths and horse -dealers, land workers, skilled craftsmen...... people who, by and large, are considered as having no creative culture of their own, and their songs have been either totally ignored or treated with contempt by those who control out#r culture, maybe it's time for a bit of positive discrimination.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 06:04 AM

Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Davie Stewart, Willie Scott, John MacDonald, Phil Tanner, Joseph Taylor, Mrs Pearl Brewer of Arkensas - this list is endless. On one hand, for sure, we can treat them as ethnographic samples for scholarly research, but on the other we can delight in the genius that sets every song a-sparkling in its natural non-scholarly and very human habitat, howe'er so grubby and feral. After all, they were singing for entertainment - and entertain they jolly well do. The old songs are, I think, best served by these wild voices.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 06:09 AM

Cross-post there, Jim. I concur, heartily.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 06:36 AM

Dunno Al. I know what modal means and I know when something sounds flat. Most of the time my guitars are in what could be classed as modal tuning, but that helps disguise my slightly flat voice, not emphasise it....

If singing slightly flat was top entertainment, (music is entertainment full stop) then it would be me driving Rolls Royces into swimming pools being chased by stoned groupies, not you..

I used to drive Tom and Bertha Brown round the clubs and festivals, telling everyone I was Tom's roadie and Bertha 's groupie. Got to know all his old mates, Fred Jordan, Bert Lloyd, MacColl etc. I can listen to them nostalgically but would I have Walter Pardon on the HiFi when friends are round? Doubt it. What I used to call tit trouser music (Fred Jordan wore the title with pride and thought it hilarious) is sheer joy to some, whilst our cleaner has everything Madonna has ever recorded and goes to see her every tour.

Music is subjective. What Jim likes is shite if you happen to wear a Slipknot tour T shirt and Motorhead are too loud if you wear a fairisle sweater. I'm sure my granddaughter has no time for any music unless Peppa Pig or The Gruffolo feature in it somewhere.

Of course, anyone who says they have no time for music they haven't even heard must be a little odd to say the least, never mind their clear demonstration of being mentally limited when discussing music...

It's all dots when you analyse it.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 07:01 AM

"What Jim likes is shite if you happen to wear a Slipknot tour T shirt"
And as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be......!!!
Al down to winning a place in the sun for the music some of us believe important
Irish musicians have told us of the time, not so long ago, when to carry a fiddle into a pub would guarantee your being instructed "don't open that feckin'; box or your out" - nw publicans a clamouring for musicians to run sessions in their bars - w have seven weekly sessions going over five nights over the winter in this one-street town - that'll increase over the next few months.
One of the finest fiddle players in Ireland told of how, when going to music lessons directly after school, he had to hide his fiddle for fear of ridicule or even physical attacks by his schoolmates - all gone now.
Thousands of youngsters are going to the veterans for lessons and takig up the music with believable enthusiasm and skill - instrumental traditional music has been guaranteed a future for at least another two generations.
All down to crashing through the barrier of (quite often self-interest generated) antagonism and antipathy on the part of the media controllers and their financiers.
I really don't care what the tee-shirters like or dislike - none of my business or interest.
I do care that attitudes not a million miles from yours, patronising at best, have allowed a predatory music industry to control what we can freely listen to over the licence-financed airwaves and tell us what we should like and dislike.
I have as little time for their music as they have for mine, but I wouldn't attempt to stop them from listening to it - I would just want the same rights to liste to it to be extended to me and those who share my tastes and interests.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,grandad9
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 09:27 AM

This from Peter Warlock a composer who lived in Enysford a village quite near where I live in Kent (1926)

". . . music is neither old nor modern: it is either good or bad music, and the date at which it was written has no significance whatever. Dates and periods are of interest only to the student of musical history. . . . All old music was modern once, and much more of the music of yesterday already sounds more old-fashioned than works which were written three centuries ago. All good music, whatever its date, is ageless -- as alive and significant today as it was when it was written . . ."


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 10:10 AM

Hi Jim - I'm aware of your position vis-a-vis traditional music such as you describe in your post of 20 Apr 14 - 05:50 AM (Mudcat time) - and I understand that point of view completely. You'll appreciate it, I'm sure, if I say with respect that I would disagree with you as well - such is life and debate!

I do think it's a questionable proposition to endow music with qualities and properties that one deems appropriate, and then to use that endowment as an argument for giving the music special treatment. In other posts on other threads, you've eloquently described how you discovered the music that you love, what it meant to you, how it changed your life, and the value that it has to you. I've read those posts and can understand (I hope) that the music has social, historical, cultural and other connotations which make it important - to you.

It's certainly possible to assert, for example, that such traditional music is more authentic, more natural, more down-to-earth, more "music of the people", less "tainted" by commercialism, has more cultural importance, etc. - to which add your own beliefs - and therefore, to say that it deserves to be heard as of right for these qualities. Which, for my part, I would contest. I'm not saying the music is unimportant - I certainly wouldn't dismiss it with contempt or ignore - and I personally like some of it. I would even support some positive discrimination, just for the sake of history. But I think some of it is a kind of baggage that has been added to the music.

The all-important question for me would be: Is it good music? You see, I genuinely don't believe that the sociology of it all - the tinsmiths or horse-dealers, skilled craftsmen and the rest - has any validity to the question of whether the music speaks to me. (And, by the way, I come from a long line of Lancashire miners, weavers, East Anglian blacksmiths, Irish bricklayers, boilermakers, locomotive drivers, etc., going back down the centuries). I'm hooked on my ancestry and the place of the various members of my family in society over the years, and I love history - but I'm not hooked on words or stories in song.

My music, the music that appeals to me, has melodies, harmonies, chordal progressions, counterpoints, twists and turns of lyricism that slip into the ear and down to the heart. And there are no rules to this - in fact it's a mystery how it happens and what appeals. There are no pecking orders in my likes. I can go from the glorious obscurities of the electric, Cajun, fingerpicked guitar of Richard Fontenot to the more obvious glories of Beethoven's last string quartets - perhaps by way of Janacek's "Glagolitic Mass" and Little Richard's "You Keep A-Knockin'", or a diversion past Frankie Trumbauer's initial C-Melody sax chorus on "Singin' The Blues" by way of the Newcastle hornpipes of James Hill. It's all wonderful, but one is no worthier than another, in my view.

I think we just have to beg to differ. I would just add that I never sneer or look with contempt at another's music, and I hope that applies both ways.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 11:12 AM

..just reminiscing....

My old dad's most favourite music was the Big Bands of Stan Kenton,
Buddy Rich,Ted Heath etc, of his youth,
and the Prog Rock & Krautrock synthesiser music of his middle age..

One of his proudest possessions was the original release
of Stan Kenton's early 1950s 'experimental' progressive jazz project
"City of Glass".

Much to the disgust and annoyance of my grandad who was an ex military bandsman
and great uncle who played accordion at local pub singsongs...

I've heard, at first they could barely tolerate this weird young modern chap who'd married my mother..

I'm playing "City of Glass" on youtube right now....😎


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 11:30 AM

Of course, you get a wee bit miffed when some hanker for their old days, which is fine, but then carry on to say folk or roots or acoustic whatever is dying.

That today's exciting talent wouldn't voluntarily go to what we call a folk club any more than I would go to a church seems to pass over their heads.

There are more young talented musicians on the folk and roots scene than ever. They play to crowds some would kill for. I was at a folk club in a town nearby last month, where they were moaning about nobody wanting folk. I mentioned the roots venue down the road. "All country and western" they said. I mentioned I watched Martin Carthy there two nights earlier to a sellout crowd. Apart from me, nobody in the club knew about it, let alone had a good night with him (streaming cold and all, but a trooper with it!). The younger pro acts they book are an absolute joy. Most of them have never set foot in a folk club, and sadly probably never will. 35 years ago I used to notice I was usually the youngest in the room. Nowadays I still often am!

Folk music is going through a great time. All other music is too. It's just that YouTube is the stage these days. The inspiration for my sharpening up my bouzouki playing isn't Andy Irvine (although I am going to see him in a couple of weeks time) but a Dutch teenager playing to his computer in his bedroom. Stunning music.

Of course, I'd rather be watching live with a pint but there you go. One old lad said at a session I go to occasionally that if anyone brought a pa in, he'd walk out and leave. Said it nastily to someone who wanted to bring his new jazz guitar to the session. Needless to say, my back line amp came with me next time. He must be psychic because he didn't turn up!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 11:32 AM

"I do think it's a questionable proposition to endow music with qualities and properties that one deems appropriate, and then to use that endowment as an argument for giving the music special treatment."
I suggest that allowing a music to dominate the airwaves the way it has been allowed to is "giving it special treatment" - does its quality merit that treatment, or is it because the product has been packaged and presented the way it has - moot point.
Personally, not as far as I'm concerned - I have read that debate here - such as it is - and followed all the links - nothing has particularly persuaded me otherwise.
Is folk music good enough to be given "special treatment - as far as I'm concerned, most certainly, but in the end, it doesn't matter - it is the cultural product of a class of people who, it is claimed, are incapable of producing anything of note, and because of that, any evidence for or against that attitude is deserving of attention.
What has happened over the last couple of dozen years in Ireland has proved beyond any doubt that, instrumentally at least, the music here is both important and, when given space to develop, has proved immensely popular to a whole new audience of young people.
You throw up a group of examples of what turns you on - I suggest you avail yourself of a copy of Bert Lloyd's radio programme, 'Folk Music Virtuoso' to see the range of skills and the pure beauty of 'The People's Music' from Monglian 'throat singers' singing about their horses, to Genoese dockers singing in exquisite polyphony- right through to black Texan convicts chopping wood (there was a copy available for downloading not so long ago on Mudcat, but if anybody missed it - happy to oblige).
Composer, Paul Hindemith (1895-1963), writing about the state of classical music in his time, said, 'compared to the skills and beauty of the folk traditions of Europe and beyond, today's classical music is alike to that of a dripping tap" (paraphrase, I'm afraid)   
Go listen to recordings of Mary Morrison of Barra immitating bagpipe-tunes, or Mary MacDonagh of Feenish Island, Connemara, using implosive ornamentation on her 'Banks of the White Rock' (achingly beautiful), or the Hebridian women improvising songs such as that made on Alan Lomax's sexual attributes, or Robert Cinnamond singing about napoleon Boneparte as if he was talking about a headstrong younger brother.      
Joe Heaney and Paddy Tunney of Ireland, Colum MacDonald of the Hebrides, Travellers like Sheila Stewart singing Tiftie's Annie (never fails to bring tears to my eyes, though I must have heard it many dozens of times.
Most of our singers were way past their prime when we recorded them - the case certainly since the middle of the last century - this in no way reduces the value and the beauty of what they had to offer
Listen to Phil Tanner in his 80s singing about a young man going out to sow his oats "on one midsummer morning", or octogenarian, Sam Larner reliving songs he had been singing all his life as if he was singing them for the first time.
As wide as my musical interests are, I've never come across such commitment, involvement and, at its best, skill in any other form of singing or music.
We spent thirty years or more interviewing non-literate Travellers about their art - that's what it was - they were far more articulate and passionate than anybody I have ever met speaking about and performing any other form of song or music.
If none of this appeals to you enough to capture your interest, I can only say, as they do around here when someone dies, "I'm sorry for your loss".
"Good" is an extremely subjective term - you like something or you don't because it appeals to you, and that's what makes something "good" - to you It's an extremely dangerous practice to allow that to decide waht is important enough to deserve an airing.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 11:33 AM

"I used to drive Tom and Bertha Brown round the clubs and festivals, telling everyone I was Tom's roadie and Bertha 's groupie. Got to know all his old mates, Fred Jordan, Bert Lloyd, MacColl etc."
yes i remember Tom Brown, I am fairly sure he was mates with Fred, but as for the others that is not my recollection, I am not sure they even knew him.
I remember Tom sang a song which was in my opinion was bad taste, my second name is clarence but you can call me Clare ,mocking transexuals and transvestites.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 12:03 PM

Jim - I've listened to and enjoyed many of the examples of music that you think I "ought" to listen to - some of them on many occasions. And, of course, "good" is absolutely subjective - but I don't have any difficulty in listening to any music that I want to listen to, whether it's obscure or otherwise. My musical tastes are very, very wide indeed.

So, if my "good" differs from your "good", who's to say which is more deserving? In the end, people will listen to what they want to listen to - and no amount of "airing" will ever change that. The mistake is to think that all modern music (whatever "modern" means) is inevitably commercial or soulless or drivel - or that all folk music (whatever "folk" means!) is inevitably men with beards and with hands cupped over ears.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 12:10 PM

Well said, Will, you speak my mind.

And Jim Carroll, also well spoken. You are a great advocate for the music that you promote--make no mistake though, you are a promoter--


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 12:11 PM

Subject: BS: Why does modern folk sound so different
From: cnd - PM
Date: 11 Apr 15 - 11:34 AM

I don't understand why modern folk, country, bluegrass etc sound so different? Not different songs/styles, but artists doing covers of classic songs, even when they try to sound the same, almost always are pretty noticeably different. I have a couple guesses, one being that the use of multiple mics allows greater instrumental pickup, and a second that also revolves around mics, but this time that the mics are better and pick up more song.

But the instrumentation isn't the only difference. Another big thing I've noticed is the singing. I'm still trying to put my finger on it, but I think it's that it sounds clearer. Also, maybe more female vocalists. Anyone else have some clues
   Will, ok lets discuss the original post then.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 12:18 PM

I think there are a lot of youg artist who have a genuine passion for music and are totally driven by fame or greed. The just love the music we have to respect the cultural choices people make and not dismiss their choices simply on the grounds tha we don't like it.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 12:24 PM

i've always imagined that swing in his voice that Carthy does in Brigg Fair is a sort of nod to what Bert Lloyd was going on about. From what I remember Bert's idea was that in Lincolnshire they played the bagpipes and they sang using a modal scale which is what a set of bagpipes plays- rather than the modern one. I expect that's how Joseph Taylor sung it originally - and its so different to what a modern ear like Vaughan Williams does to the tune.

I'm not not being facetious or dismissive of your music Jim. I have given it thought.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 12:27 PM

With pleasure, Dick. Just for starters, though, what are we actually talking about here? The original post appears to have been entitled "Why does modern folk sound so different" - but this actual thread is entitled "Why does modern music sound so different".

I'm happy to waffle on about anything, but we need to agree on the subject of the waffle. :-)

Modern music - or modern folk?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:02 PM

I meant my previous post to say " not drIven by fame or greed".


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:04 PM

"So, if my "good" differs from your "good", who's to say which is more deserving? "
I've been trying to avoid my personal tastes as a reason for my belief in what is important
My point remains unanswered - if the majority population of these islands are considered unable to produce anything culturally - and if examples exis of how "good" and important their culture can be, this is, as far as I am concerned, grounds enough for positive discrimination when making this material accessible.
As it is, whether is is sellable appears to be the deciding factor.
I can think of no example in modern pop- music that comes anywhere near the examples I mentioned, either in skill or in cultural significance.
One of the features of all the singers we recorded is that they learned their songs in their youth and thirty, forty, fifty years later they were still singing them (to whoever asked them)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:08 PM

I do not understand why anyone cares a jot or tittle what others think about music. If YOU like it, continue to do so. If you don't, stop listening to it.

(That is a general statement aimed at no one who ever posted on this or any other thread on the whole internet.)


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Hi lp
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:13 PM

I have to disagree Jim some very, very talent
Musicians have been and still are " pop" musicians . There is a lot of musical virtuosity in all genres.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:20 PM

if the majority population of these islands are considered unable to produce anything culturally - and if examples exis of how "good" and important their culture can be, this is, as far as I am concerned, grounds enough for positive discrimination when making this material accessible.

Mmm... slippery ground there, I think. A bit like Michael Gove decreeing that no American literature be taught in schools' English curriculum. So - no Salinger, Faulkner, Mailer, Bellow, Hawthorne, Whitman, Wolfe, Miller...

Let's go the whole hog. While we're at it, lets forbid all study of Russian literature in modern schools curriculum. So - no Dostoevsky, Gogol, Chekhov, Tolstoy, Pushkin, Solzhenitsyn... And as for those blasted French and Germans - well!

I exaggerate, of course. But who is it, by the way, who considers that these islands are unable to produce anything culturally?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:20 PM

"I can think of no example in modern pop- music that comes anywhere near the examples I mentioned"

Yes but Jim, that may be because you have a relatively limited knowledge of the sheer diversity of 'pop' music
of now and previous decades.

Same as I and many others possess only a tiny fraction of your expert encyclopaedic knowledge
of trad folk. ?????

But at least you clearly have a better and more positive awareness of 'modern music'
than 2 other eminent veterans of the UK and USA folk tradition
who have contributed to this thread.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Hi Lo
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:22 PM

The above was me with big thumbs On small iPod.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:29 PM

"No perspective, no perception. New perspective, new perception."  Toba Beta


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:30 PM

Yes but Jim, that may be because you have a relatively limited knowledge of the sheer diversity of 'pop' music
of now and previous decades.
what poppycock?if you will excuse the pun.
I am very aware of modern pop music, and its deficiencies and i am inclined to agree with Jim, I do not hear the sound of someone who has been playing singing their repertoire for 50 years. no punkfolkjrocker you are emitting the sort of poppycock , that some of your young heroes do.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: olddude
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 01:52 PM

There are amazing young song writers, and performers look at ed sheernan I could only wish I had his talent


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 02:02 PM

Thankyou for that Dick...

errrrmmm.... now what were those great wise old sayings

about "enough rope" and "digging holes"...????? 😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 02:17 PM

Absolutely agree, Dan - there's great music out there, from all ages and cultures, in many different styles and genres. We just have to keep our ears open.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 02:26 PM

well it sounds like bollocks to me. people have been singing in the styles of Jolson, Sinatra, Crosby and Presley for well over fifty years. And Michael Buble and Harry Connick even sing the same songs.


I don't know why you feel the need to slag off and abuse working musicians. but frankly its a bit sad.

if yu seriously thought about the value of your music - you wouldn't need be so bloody nasty. it has its place.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 02:43 PM

I expect that's how Joseph Taylor sung it originally

Here it is : Joseph Taylor Brigg Fair


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 02:52 PM

Joseph Tylor was an old man but he did not sing flat.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 02:57 PM

Dick, you talk bollocks. Clarence was written by Mitch, a comedy folk singer from Worksop. Tom, I and others in our pile used to sing it, including "gay" Musket who had a sign made for the corner of the bar at a local pub, entitled "Clarence Corner" to denote where a few of his friends used to hang out.

Those who reckon it is offensive need to lighten up. It's a bit of a gay anthem and takes the piss out of an idiot who is paranoid about gay people.

Your comment about Tom Brown possibly not knowing certain people after I said he not only did but through him, got to know them a bit myself in my youth is somewhat odd? I just said he not only knew them but I might add appeared in billings with them, documentary interviews etc, and his trusty chauffeur (yours truly) along for the ride.

Oh, met Dick Miles too at a festival or club, can't recall which. Not quite the cantankerous old sod he has turned into these days.

Anyway, Dan mentioning Ed Sheeran reminds me. I promised a mate I would learn a particular Ed Sheeran song that he wants to accompany me on at a local festival next month. Off to have a listen and work it out.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:13 PM

.. and anyway Dick...

when I was talking about "2 other eminent veterans of the UK and USA folk tradition"

it was a bit presumptuous of you to jump to the conclusion you were one of them...

But as it happens, you are correct.

Though just because you are all too frequently in a rather oddly bad mood,
doesn't mean I'll stop enjoying your youtube vids playing yer squeezebox...

After all Marc Bolan is one of my 'heroes',
and most of the time in interviews he showed himself up to be a completely unreliable with the truth egomaniac bellend...😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:20 PM

"Mmm... slippery ground there, I think."
Why?
Are the working people of Britain totally incapable of artistic creation, and if they are, why on earth should that make a difference to our appreciation of "Salinger, Faulkner, Mailer, Bellow, Hawthorne, Whitman, Wolfe, Miller"
An acknowledgement of British songs that have migrated to America, Canada, Australia - or English and Scottish Child Ballads that were to be found throughout Europe - and beyond.
Nobody is suggesting that any culture should be displaced to make room for British folk culture - on the contrary, our oral cultures should be allowed to compete with all others on the level playing field I mentioned earlier.
Last year I annotated around 450 songs for our website - around a quarter of them probably originated in Britain.
Setting national barriers on folk songs and music is an act of stupidity, if you are going to understand them; I'm the last person in the world to indulge in such practice.
Sorry Will - your wriggling is sending my respect for you whistling down the chute into the communal bin at an increasig rate of knots.
Are you really suggesting that an entire class culture should be as ignored as it is being because there's no room for it on the curriculum?
And no P.F.R. I am not unaware of all the diversity of pop music - been part of it myself in the past - but I am also aware that, as things pertain in the present, pop music is, by necessity, expendable in order for it to be profitable - sort of like spitting out your chewing gum and opening a new strip - no way to treat culture in my book.
Are you aware of the skill and diversity that has gone into the making, performing and distributing of folk songs and ballads, many of which have survived for several centuries as performed pieces - wanna give me the name of a pop song that's done that?
As it happens, soe of yesterday's pop songs feature highly on my most played list - most car journeys we take are accomapanied by Ella singing from the Cole Porter Songbook, or Billie Holliday or 'Ol'' Blue Eyes' or that still gorgeous Peggy Lee
By the way Will - thanks for putting a name to a singer I have enhjoyed for many years without knowing her name, Rina Ketty, much appreciated
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:32 PM

Jim:

"Are you aware of the skill and diversity that has gone into the making, performing and distributing of folk songs and ballads, many of which have survived for several centuries as performed pieces"

Yes.. absolutely.. at least since I was a 14 year old rummaging in the Topic LPs collection of the Local Library



"- wanna give me the name of a pop song that's done that?"

hold on a sec while I fire up the steam and warm up the valves in my Time Machine....😉


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: olddude
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:43 PM

Folk songs were pop songs in their day. Not enough time has passed for todays music to prove staying power but I think there is a lot that will pass the test.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: olddude
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:45 PM

Just look at the beach boys or four seasons. Fifty years and still going strong


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:47 PM

Pop music is expendable in order to be profitable? Interesting, Jim.

And folk music?

From broadsheets that made money out of many of the songs Jim refers to, to MacColl's offshore account where most of the royalties ended up, the business of business is business.

Mind you, we used to think in our immature way that the punk songs we wrote were a push against commercialism, and my dabbling in folk at the same time was along those lines too...

Till I realised music is music and is there to be exploited for fairly good reasons. If you can entertain and put meat on the table, you aren't doing bad.

Very old trad songs survive for similar reasons. Out of interest, there is more evidence of a Take That song today than 99.99% of trad songs,so for the future?

Interesting.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 03:55 PM

No wriggling on my part, Jim - I simply just do not believe that any music, whatever its origins, has any priority over another. And what I was querying was your belief that there needs to be positive discrimination in favour of one particular type. You believe that there should be - I don't. It's really as simple as that. I also don't believe that traditional music is undervalued in this country, judging by the amount of it I hear played in clubs, pubs, acoustic sessions, singarounds and festivals. That's my experience - and I play a fair amount of it regularly to appreciative audiences. You may believe differently - that's your experience.

We beg to differ.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 04:18 PM

"Very old trad songs survive for similar reasons"

"Survive" may be the appropriate term, when it comes to their broad influence, beyond a local scene tgat is. Do they "thrive" when it comes to broad influence, would be a more appropriate term. Many current songs havemillions of you tube downloads-many others more of a local demographic interest.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 04:21 PM

no Jim believes as I understand him, that people who have been performing their repertoire for 30 40 50 years have more feel   for their music,and are so familiar with it that is a part of them, it is in most cases a reflection of their roots, examples that spring to my mind are american old timey tradtional performers and traditional singers of irish music, the music is part of their community. I believe that with the break up of communities this has been lost to some extent, I still see it here in ireland with songs that are written about local events, compare this to music that is written solely for making loads of money, and there is a difference, wheter it is better is amatter of taste , I believe it is, but what is not amatter of opinion is that it is DIFFERENT.
Jim Iapologise if i have misunderstood or misinterpreted your posts


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 04:25 PM

From broadsheets that made money out of many of the songs Jim refers to, to MacColl's offshore account where most of the royalties ended up, the business of business is business."
this is disgraceful MacColl had a hit purely by accident, first time ever was not written for the purpose of making money, what evidence is there that MacColl had an off shore account, this scurrillous trolling


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 04:34 PM

there is alot of difference between someone writing a broadsheet 200 years ago to sell in a local community for a few pennies, and manufactured boy bands who have no artistic control over their music, it may be a matter of degree but is a fucking great huge degree. the singers who bought the broadsheets were free to interpret the songs and alter them, the modern popboy bands that are put together for the sole purpose of commercial gain are told exactly what they have to sing, how to sing it, think about it, it is veryt different


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 05:10 PM

Dick, do you know where you are? This is the music/above the line area of Mudcat. Watch your language!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Hi Lo
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 05:15 PM

I have heard a lot of pop singers who have a great "feel" for their music and who have put their own emotion , heritage and experience into songs. I do have to say Jim that I do think you just be turnIng on a very narrow musical pivot.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 05:24 PM

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Digitally Learned is digital marketing resource that serves small businesses in North and West Vancouver. We offer professional SEO, SEM, copywriting, direct marketing, email marketing and print marketing. Check us out in North Vancouver at 1979 Marine Drive. Our digital marketing services will improve your businesses profit margin.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 05:44 PM

People write and play music for their own creative enjoyment, and for the enjoyment and recognition of others. A few are fortunate to make a living from making and playing music-some are more successful at it than others.

Like with other exploits, there has been significant changes, as technology, business, communication and society broadens and changes. To be successful, and up-to-date, 8most musicians and music writers have changed, to some degree, with the times.

A comparison of the music and challenges of 200 years ago with today's is like comparing hand made cars of yesterday with mass produced cars of today. Nostalgia makes us yearn for the "romantic past". Some aspects were better, but not all. Some remote cultural areas cling to the past. However, today is today and yesterday was yesterday. It is unlikely that society will take a u-turn. Today, music is broad spectrum-as is one's music choices. For sure, like with other forms of entertainement is big business and cross-over, with hugevcompetition for the global communities increasing leisurer time and dollars.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 07:08 PM

Will Fly: Mmm... slippery ground there, I think. A bit like Michael Gove decreeing that no American literature be taught in schools' English curriculum. So - no Salinger, Faulkner, Mailer, Bellow, Hawthorne, Whitman, Wolfe, Miller...

Going to have to correct you there, Will. Gove said no such thing. He was deliberately mis-quoted by the head of the AQA exam board who knew that a lie spreads faster than the truth and sticks longer, if you get it in first.

What Gove actually said was that it was astonishing to him that 70% of students studying GSCE English that year were studying "Of Mice And Men"; that for most of them it was the *only* book they studied at GCSE and that this had actually been the case in several of the preceding years with regard to "Grapes of Wrath" and "To Kill A Mockingbird". So what he was proposing was a *broadening* of the curriculum to include a wider variety of literature, rather than seeing an entire generation grow up whose main (in some cases only) exposure to English literature had been the works of Steinbeck and Lee. At no time did he suggest banning US or any other literature.

Here's his "after the horse has bolted" article trying to correct the impression: Gove's Article

Now I don't hold a candle for Gove but the fact that the lies and distortions put about by the miffed head of the AQA Board have gained the status of "gospel" really "boils my piss" (to quote an expression frequently used by my daughter).

Anyway, that aside, some very good points in your posts!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 07:21 PM

JC: Are you aware of the skill and diversity that has gone into the making, performing and distributing of folk songs and ballads, many of which have survived for several centuries as performed pieces - wanna give me the name of a pop song that's done that?

What a strange comment! How could a current (or even a former) popular song possibly have done that? Come back in 200 years, though, and I'll pretty well guarantee you (Armageddon allowing!) that some of the pop songs of the last 50 years will have survived and still be performed. Some have already propagated through 2 generations....I regularly hear 50-60 year old pop songs being performed by people in their 20s.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 07:40 PM

GSS: there is alot of difference between someone writing a broadsheet 200 years ago to sell in a local community for a few pennies, and manufactured boy bands who have no artistic control over their music, it may be a matter of degree but is a fucking great huge degree. the singers who bought the broadsheets were free to interpret the songs and alter them, the modern popboy bands that are put together for the sole purpose of commercial gain are told exactly what they have to sing, how to sing it, think about it, it is veryt different

There you go again making huge blanket generalisations about the modern and pop music scene. Certainly, as I said above, SOME acts are "manufactured", but they're a quite small percentage of what's out there....and I don't think they're quite as subject to control as you seem to think....or no more so than some of the musicians of the early 20th century who were tightly managed and "fed" their songs from a relatively small group of composers.

The majority of people in the modern pop industry these days are self-starters, and, due to the availability of inexpensive recording, sound engineering and editing applications, able to record and produce their own music without being in thrall to any big recording label or commercial organisation.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Hi Lo
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 07:49 PM

The great StePhen Foster has stayed with us, and his sOngs seem very much in pop tradition of his time. Now they seem be in the folk tradition.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 08:52 PM

Jim - btw... concerning any speculation of which music from any genre
will still be remembered and valued many years from now.

May I just add, I'll be very lucky if I'm still here even 20 years from now
[few men in my family have survived to see 70...]

So to be frank, and perhaps a little selfish,
I'm just happy to enjoy any music I can
that takes my fancy right here and now...😎


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: olddude
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 10:38 PM

Amen punker


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 02:36 AM

punkfolkrocker - we had a group of young kids in our session a while back who played a couple of tunes. They were really quite good. What they played was described by several of the members as some new stuff!!! In fact it was White Light White Heat by the Velvet Underground and Psycho Killer by Talking Heads. Happily playing really quite non commercial orientated songs from nigh on 50 and 40 years ago respectively. I'm sure some people in those days asked "who'll be playing that in 50 years time?" :-)


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolrocker
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 03:23 AM

Allan - yeah.. see most of us don't need to prove anything,
or have anything proven to us...

we live in a thriving, living, dynamic culture where music flows freely
and teenage musicians are beholden to no one tradition,
and will play whatever the f@ck they feel like....😎

Our arty farty teen band back in the late 70s mixed our own self written 'punkishy / new wave songs
with 50s rock 'n'roll
and standards from 1930s Hollywood movies - without discrimination..

..and the student audiences just puffed away on their joints and munched their mushroomz
and seemed to have a good time enjoying anything we were playing...😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 03:27 AM

By gum, Rob, I stand corrected! (-:


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 03:39 AM

There's something Darwinian with music. There was a revival of and interest in old songs that gave us an insight into communities of yesterday, and this revival has been ongoing. From Cecile Sharpe wanting some quaint ditties to entertain his dinner guests with to the "collecting" of the c20.

Here in the next century / millennium, some of these old songs are being re arranged yet again for a new audience and like many pop songs, may last into the next few generations. Only time will tell. If I were a betting man, (and I do have the occasional flutter) then my money is on Imagine, Bohemian Rhapsody and the entire Beatles portfolio being available on whatever replaces iTunes together with Mozart, Beethoven and Bach. Hey down derry doodle? Depends if Ed Sheeran slips it in an album.

Music is what interests you. Jim talks of songs lasting. If he were around immediately prior to Sharpe or Child, he would not know not have heard many tunes nor indeed ballads he says have stood time. Most of them never ventured further than five miles from the earlier words and tunes they evolved from. Broadsheets of course being something Simon Cowell 's ancestors were involved with!

Music is to be enjoyed. If people stop singing a song, there is a good reason for it. If a song is dragged out for its provenance rather than its quality, there is a bad reason for it.
Many traditional songs are set to catchy tunes so there is hope yet.

Interesting how Dick can slag off Tom Brown but get hot under the collar over MacColl. A bit of trivia. They both got many songs from books and claimed to have learned them at their mother's knee, died on the same day and in their own (small in Tom's, large in Ewan's) way contributed to the folk culture of their day.

Of course Dirty Old Town will survive. As a traditional Irish ballad..   First Time Ever will too, thanks to Roberta Flack, Sinatra, Cash and The Stereophonics.

The oral tradition is now the iTunes server tradition. And that's a good thing. I sang Geordie at a charity gig recently and the drummer of a band also on said "I liked your take on that Anais Mitchell song.". I told him I liked her take on it too...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 03:42 AM

"Folk songs were pop songs in their day"
No they weren't, at least not in the sense that the word is used today.
They were pop(ular) because they were made by and represented the oral culture of the "ordinary" or "common" people - popular refers to the origins of the songs, not (as it does today) how many people listened to them and bought the albums!!
They were the cultural expression of the common people.
Child entitled his collection 'The English and Scottish Popular Ballads' not because of their widespread popularity, but because of who, he baleived, made and sang them.
All of which is about as far removed from today's popular music, of which we are passive recipients, as you can get.
This, as far as I am concerned, is what makes folk song important and deserving of special treatment - it is our music, our culture, a part of our heritage and cultural history - it is "our voice" and represents our experiences, our place in history.
Last year I annotated four hundred-odd songs for our library collection - I learned more about the people of our adopted home, County Clare, in the six months it took me to do so, than I have over the forty years we have been associated with the place, as visitors and now as permanent residents - it was probably the most intensive six months of self-education I have ever spent.
I really am not flying a flag for our work, but I suggest you look at the Clare County website and look at the information and social background these songs carry.
"Stephen Foster - now they seem be in the folk tradition"
No they are not - they'll always be Stephen Foster's - you try telling the Foster Estate that they are yours and are in the public domain and you'll here the pitter-patter of tiny lawyers feet before the ink's dry - but that's letting the forbidden "what is folk song" genii out of the bottle.
Foster wrote good popular songs (and some bad ones), and they'll always be his - not ours.
"I'm just happy to enjoy any music I can"
Me too - and I would like to share that enjoyment with as many people as possible while I'm still around, and would pop off happily if I could know that the songs would still be around long after I've joined the choire invisibule.   
Lets face it, if it wasn't for a lorra-lorra dead people who took the trouble to lift the corner and look underneath, we, and a lot of others wouldn't have had the lifetime of pleasure we've had down the years: Sharp, Child, Burns, Maidment, (the much maligned) Buchan, Grainger, Lomax.... all those who went out and gathered the 'Long Harvest' from 'the untouchable' people and put them on the shelf for posterity - gawd luv 'em all, I say.
They certainly stopped me from hanging round the street corners for most of my life!
When Clare County Library agreed to put our collection up on its website, it was, for us, the achievement of a long-held ambition - to pass back the several hundred songs we recorded from singers who are now gone, to their rightful owners - their frieds and relatives, and the people of Clare as a whole - the response so far has been somewhat overwhelming.
While we were tearing up the buchalauns, rushes and dandelions out of our garden(sic) yesterday a passer-by stopped, thanked us for the wonderful songs and drove off - still coming down from that one.
We understand that because of the collection being made accessible, there is a possible move afoot to appoint a singer-in-residence into the school system here to introduce the Clare kids to their local songs, using the singers we recorded as a basis - it really is something to be chuffed about.   
Breakfast - then back to the buchalauns - (sod the good weather)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 03:44 AM

"Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Hi Lo - PM
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 07:49 PM

The great StePhen Foster has stayed with us, and his sOngs seem very much in pop tradition of his time. Now they seem be in the folk tradition."
if you had read one of my earlier posts, I mentioned Stephen Foster, I also mentioned how one of his songs[ GENTLE ANNIE] had been improved by the folk process, However, Foster drew from roots Music, and though he attempted to write for money [was not successful at the time, perhaps his songs were not commercial enough?] his commercial situation like the broadsheet writers, was very different from the manufactured and artificially produced pop bands of the late 1990s and early 2000s, these bands are in fact in different situations to sixties pop bands ,most of whom had served their time gigging, beatles stones etc .
Rob Naylor, we wil have to agree to disagree.
to ilustrate my points about Foster read this cut and paste carefully hilo.
Foster attended private academies in Allegheny, Athens, and Towanda, Pennsylvania. He received an education in English grammar, diction, the classics, penmanship, Latin, Greek, and mathematics. In 1839, his elder brother William was serving his apprenticeship as an engineer at nearby Towanda and thought Stephen would benefit from being under his supervision. The site of the Camptown Races is 30 miles from Athens and 15 miles from Towanda. Stephen attended Athens Academy from 1839 to 1841. He wrote his first composition, Tioga Waltz, while attending Athens Academy and performed it during the 1841 commencement exercises; he was 14. It was not published during the composer's lifetime, but it is included in the collection of published works by Morrison Foster. In 1842, Athens Academy was destroyed in a fire.[citation needed]

Foster's education included a brief period at Jefferson College in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania, (now Washington & Jefferson College).[1][nb 1] His tuition was paid, but he had little spending money.[1] Sources conflict on whether he left willingly or was dismissed,[3] but, either way, he left Canonsburg to visit Pittsburgh with another student and did not return.[1]

During his teenage years, Foster was influenced greatly by two men. Henry Kleber (1816–1897), one of Stephen's few formal music instructors, was a classically trained musician who emigrated from Darmstadt, Germany, to Pittsburgh and opened a music store. Dan Rice was an entertainer, a clown, and blackface singer, making his living in traveling circuses. Although respectful of the more civilized parlor songs of the day, Rice and his friends would often sit at a piano, writing and singing minstrel songs through the night. Eventually, Foster learned to blend the two genres to write some of his best-known work.[citation needed]

In 1846, Foster moved to Cincinnati, Ohio, and became a bookkeeper with his brother's steamship company. While he was in Cincinnati, Foster penned his first successful songs—among them "Oh! Susanna," which became an anthem of the California Gold Rush—in 1848–1849. In 1849, he published Foster's Ethiopian Melodies, which included the successful song "Nelly Was a Lady", made famous by the Christy Minstrels. A plaque marks the site of Foster's residence in Cincinnati, where the Guilford School building is now located.

Then he returned to Pennsylvania and signed a contract with the Christy Minstrels. It was during this period that Foster would write most of his best-known songs: "Camptown Races" (1850), "Nelly Bly" (1850), "Old Folks at Home" (known also as "Swanee River", 1851), "My Old Kentucky Home" (1853), "Old Dog Tray" (1853), and "Jeanie With the Light Brown Hair" (1854), written for his wife Jane Denny McDowell.

Many of Foster's songs were of the blackface minstrel show tradition popular at the time. Foster sought, in his own words, to, "build up taste ... among refined people by making words suitable to their taste, instead of the trashy and really offensive words which belong to some songs of that order." Many of his songs had Southern themes, yet Foster never lived in the South and visited it only once in 1852, by riverboat voyage on his honeymoon on his brother Dunning's steamboat the Millinger, which took him down the Mississippi to New Orleans.

Foster attempted to make a living as a professional songwriter and may be considered innovative in this respect, since this field did not yet exist in the modern sense. Due in part to the limited scope of music copyright and composer royalties at the time, Foster realized very little of the profits his works generated for sheet music printers. Multiple publishers often printed their own competing editions of Foster's tunes, paying Foster nothing. He received $100 ($2,653 in 2012 dollars) for "Oh, Susanna" and barely made anything for his many other, popular songs.[citation needed]

Foster moved to New York City in 1860. About a year later, his wife and daughter left him and returned to Pittsburgh. Beginning in 1862, his fortunes decreased, and as they did, so did the quality of his new songs. Early in 1863, he began working with George Cooper, whose lyrics were often humorous and designed to appeal to musical theater audiences. The Civil War created a flurry of newly written music with patriotic war themes, but this did not benefit Foster. During this time he composed a series of Sunday School hymns, including "Give Us This Day"


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 03:48 AM

Regarding folk/traditional, the "sound" has become much too important.

The folk music revival was based on audience participation....that was the magic ingredient.....too much emphasis is now focused on producing a marketable sound, often too clever or contrived to touch the emotions.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 04:13 AM

Jim - I seriously do admire & applaud what you're doing collecting,
preserving and passing on the songs of your community.

We actually aren't that dissimilar in some respects...

Half a lifetime ago I was photographic archivist for a major regional Industrial Museum,
and some while later worked on an oral folk history project associated with Folk South West.

I wish the rest of my working life had been as interesting and enjoyable...


So again, long may you keep up the good work...

Those aspects of music we disagree on,
aren't such a big deal in the greater scheme of things, really...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 05:06 AM

"Those aspects of music we disagree on,"
Do we? - not sure that we do really - all a matter of emphasis.
Which museum - not the beautiful Black Country one?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 05:58 AM

Akenaton makes an interesting point . Certainly the revival had a huge social basis to it. Most folk clubs of my youth had at least one old lad leading us with unaccompanied chorus singing of, for instance, Jones 's Ale, Pleasant and Delightful, Fathom the Bowl....

A band I was once in used to remind the audience that Folk Music is not a spectator sport!

Don't dismiss the clever arrangements in folk music though.

Sadly, with many clubs degenerating into singaround cum session evenings, it is not so tempting to caress the tune with nice diminished chords and runs that tease out beautiful cadences as some idiot with an accordion or guitar thinks it is an invitation to join in with three chord wonders and tempo changing rhythms.....

If you aren't careful, songs will go the way of most Americana as it gets boiled down to all sounding the same.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 07:14 AM

musket , i am criticising tom brown for singing a particular song mocking trans sexuals, I am criticising you for posting inaccuracies about MacColl, I have certain criticisms of MacColl, but they are based on accuracy, at the same time that I have criticised him Ihave also pointed out his good points, for example his generosity to others as regards his time and his collection of songs, plus his performing abilities and his excellent song writing.
I find little I can say about Tom Brown other than he was   a reasonable singer, who was generally affable,the only songs i remember him singing were windy old weather, and the offensive song about trans sexuals, it is all a matter of taste, but in my opinion he was not in the same league as phil tanner, neither as a performer was he in the class of roy harris, man who was par excellence at getting audiences to participate.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 08:05 AM

GSS: However, Foster drew from roots Music, and though he attempted to write for money [was not successful at the time, perhaps his songs were not commercial enough?] his commercial situation like the broadsheet writers, was very different from the manufactured and artificially produced pop bands of the late 1990s and early 2000s, these bands are in fact in different situations to sixties pop bands ,most of whom had served their time gigging, beatles stones etc .
Rob Naylor, we wil/ have to agree to disagree.


We will indeed, but, oh, come on! there were as many, probably more, "manufactured" bands in the 60s as there were/ are in the 2000s. Apart from the obvious ones like the Monkees (one or two of whom developed into decent musicians) and the Archies, there was a large number of performers and bands created by entrepreneurs, managers and labels purely to produce commercial returns. Even in the 50s there were distinct attempts made to replaced some of the more "raw" performers like Eddie Cochrane with "safe" (and manufactured) alternatives such as Frankie Avalon, Paul Anka and Neil Sedaka.

The Brill Building in New York was just a massive commercial music factory where Leiber and Stoller, Bacherach and David, King and Goffin etc churned out "hits" to a formula which were fronted by photogenic young "manufactured" artistes (Bobby Vee, Tommy Roe, The Ohio Express, etc ) under the control of Al Nevins and Don Kirchner. That's not to mention the endless succession of manufactured and largely interchangeable Motown artistes.

Manufactured acts are maybe more obvious now, but I'd argue strongly (and from a point of actually having taken the time to explore the genre a bit more deeply than the obvious stuff on prime-time TV) that there is at least as large, if not larger, a proportion of modern pop bands and artistes who serve their time gigging than there were back in the supposed golden days of the 60s.

To equate 60s gigging bands with modern manufactured Boy Bands (you mentioned Boyzone, but they're very old hat now...your example would have had more cred if you'd said "One Direction") is daft. Better comparisons would have been Arcade Fire, Vampire Weekend, Foals or Maximo Park....all commercially successful non-manufactured bands who came up the hard way.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 08:21 AM

The part of the revival I was involved with was not that of the singaround type, where evryv#body who turned up, got a bite of the cherry - personally, I never found that type particularly satisfying because it was virtually impossible to guarantee that the singing never fell below an acceptable level.
With the best will in the world, you can have a night of mainly good singing and a couple of poorish ones stumbling their way through their crib sheets and it's the latter that get to be remembered
None of the clubs I went to encouraged people to practice in public, and the ones I helped to run had workshops attached to help less experienced singers develop.
The nearest we ever got to unorganised free-for-alls was the 'You name it, we'll sing it" when an M.C. collected subjects for songs from the audience and a group of residents (with necessarily sizeable repertoires responded with an appropriate song - still remember a man handing a slip of paper reading "gazumphed brickie goes berserk and slays 2" - he was obliged by Bert Lloyd singing Lamkin
In the Singers Club, chorus songs were a part of the set up and the residents made a point of teaching choruses - on some occasions, excessively, in my opinion.
All evenings finished with a chorus song - still get a lump in the throat when I hear 'Leaving of Liverpool' or 'I'm a Rover'.
The Critics Group did a great deal of work on varying an evening - from the early days MacColl was arguing that if you gave an audience a bundle of say six songs, all sung at the same pace and rhythm and sung in the same tone or using the same impetus, then the audience's "ears went to sleep" - they stopped listening.
We referred to the impetus of singing (a combination of speed, weight and direction) as "efforts" and MacColl devised a technique based on Laben's theory of movement to enable us to discuss them and handle them as singers.
MacColl's rationale was that the songs were made up of different emotions which, as in speech, produced different vocal sounds.
The residents were asked to be ware of what each other were singing so they could break the pattern when necessary.
MacColl's own use of these techniques was underlined for me by a story Pat tells of, when she was first involved in the Singers back in the early 60s, she invited a workmate home and. during the course of the evening, played her a side of one of Ewan's albums - the response was, "very nice, which one was he?"
There is no reason in the world why folk song should "all sound the same" - they cover many/most aspects of the human condition, which, when understood and interpreted, are every bit as varied as speech.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 09:41 AM

You've never met Tom Brown then. He never sang any song mocking transsexuals. In fact, as you yourself pointed out, he sang Clarence. A wonderful song by my mate Mitch which mocks those who seem paranoid about gay men. It is one of the best anti homophobic songs written, in its own way.

The MacColl comments over finances are purely from the court case when Jean was attempting to secure her part of the divorce settlement. Mind you, MacColl wasn't a hypocrit, just those who put him on a moral pedestal he didn't belong on.

I have tried to contribute opinions on this thread Dick, and your first observation was to question what I put. Question opinions by all means but when I say I was with someone in the company of others on occasion, comments questioning whether we were there are not needed. I said we were and that is that.

You're like your best mate Jim. He couldn't help bringing up tit trousers. Ironically, the only person offended is him, and he doesn't count. Fred Jordan thought it hilarious mind..

Now. If we can get back to the thread... Your opinion is noted, Jim's is, everybody else's is. Folk is a wide genre of many styles, as is pop, classical, jazz etc so many different opinions weigh equally.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 10:45 AM

"He never sang any song mocking transsexuals"
'fraid he did - was there when he sang it as guest at the Singers Club - got up a few people's noses and we didn't book him again.
" put him on a moral pedestal he didn't belong on. "
Nope again - most people who defend MacColl are those who knew hi and were aware of his contribution to folk song - usually in defense of the small-mider grave dancers and begrudgers.
"You're like your best mate Jim."
Why do you have to be so spiteful? - I'm sure there's a cure out there!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 11:00 AM

By the way:
"He couldn't help bringing up tit trousers."
I brought u your "tit trousers" because I find it as offensive as I did Tom Brown's homophobic song
You don't like it, don't do it - simple as that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 12:58 PM

Thank you for the info on MacColl, Laban, and performance, Jim Carroll.   Had no idea that those sort of dialogues took place--


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 01:08 PM

"Had no idea that those sort of dialogues took place--"
We managed to get some of it included in the 2 anniversary programmes on him on Irish radio earlier this year.
Hope to make up a user-pack of some of the work we did in the Critics Group - Laban, Stanislavski and the relaxation exercises - for anybody interested - still works for me in keeping the songs alive.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 01:53 PM

Jim Carroll,

You mention the Clare County website and library. I'd be interested to access your recordings.

I've tried looking at the Clare County Archives on the county's library site, but can't find your contributions.

I seem to be looking in the wrong place. Could you give me a link please?

Many thanks,

Ed


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 01:57 PM

Hilarious, Jim is hardly my best mate, although I have never met him, but on this occasion,I agree with what he is saying.
Fred Jordan was a good singer, but the only Opinions of his I would take seriously are on the following subjects Gardening and Farming.
I remember Fred giving to me his opinions about relationships and women, he seemed to regard women rather like cattle or horses, needless to say.I took no notice of his comments.
Tom Brown, sang the aforementioned song with hand movements taking the piss out of gay people, he did not perform it as an anti homophobic song, he was appealLing for a homophobic attitude, and well you know it.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 02:27 PM

"I'd be interested to access your recordings."
There y'go
Jim Carroll
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/songs/cmc/index.htm


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 03:09 PM

Many thanks, Jim.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 03:55 PM

Jim-I would be very interested in that user-pack, and encourage you wholeheartedly to put it together. You have some tools there that are essential for performers and those who are building performance communities.

Like some others here, I do have a fondness for pop music in all it's forms, but that aside, I am profoundly troubled by the way that the machinery for mass producing and distributing music, entertainment, and other cultural items has destroyed our community traditions.

Traditions, musical, and otherwise, are shared experiences, and shared experiences are what defines community.   The critical discussion here is really, "What can we do to restore and sustain our musical traditions?".

When we let those things go, we lose more that just an archive of good music, we lose what keeps us together as a society.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 15 - 02:21 PM

are we together as a society. i don't want to be together with David Cameron or Nigel Farage.

why are we represented by such a gang of bumholes


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 15 - 03:19 PM

Al - my bumhole has taken offence at your suggestion
that it be associated with right wing politicians...😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Apr 15 - 04:34 PM

(Discussing a SCAT video) Beavis: "They should have a name for this kind of music."

Butt-head: "They already do Beavis, crap."


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 22 Apr 15 - 06:14 PM

After the last three posts...

I need TP for my bunghole.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 22 Apr 15 - 06:23 PM

Traditions, musical, and otherwise, are shared experiences, and shared experiences are what defines community.   The critical discussion here is really, "What can we do to restore and sustain our musical traditions?".

Nothing. The experiences are still being shared, only via different media. As long as there are human beings there will be community, as long as there is community there will be musical traditions. That much, I think, is pretty self-evident. The critical discussion here ought to be one of seeing musical tradition as being integral to musical experience without exception.

I share meaningful musical experience collaborating with people in Italy & Japan who I've never met face to face. This is my community - this is my tradition.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 22 Apr 15 - 08:11 PM

"why are we represented by such a gang of bumholes"

Because our fellow countrymen and women voted them into power.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 02:17 AM

Look on the bright side. We at least get to vote for them. The folk police from Police HQ in tax exile self appoint themselves.   They reckon they know all about the words in music but can't recognise a song taking the piss out of stereotypes. Best of all, my old mate was the archetypal tit trousers Jim and his best mate Dick drool over.

Unfortunately, he was a dear personal friend of mine, god father to my eldest and did as much as anyone ever did in helping me enjoy folk as a music and indeed a social life. So of course the blinkered old fools have to find something! I used to sing Clarence myself on occasion. Comes from being an old partner in crime of Mitch's I suppose.

Now THAT is a folk song. Lets generations to come know about attitudes of the late C20. I contributed a verse to it by the way.....


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 02:58 AM

"Jim and his best mate Dick drool over. "
If you haven't got any answers, throw stones from a distance.
You do this every time you make a balls up of your case Muskie - you find yourself lost for arguments, you sneer from afar.
I've put up why I believe folk song and music is important; I've given examples of what we did to try to do something about putting it on the map - feel free to show where we went wrong instead of reverting to you old usual schoolyard name-calling.
I'm dreadfully sorry I don't believe 'I Don't Like Mondays' is "folk" - I really am.
I apologise for finding your insulting ageism unacceptable - spent far too long as a beneficiary of the wisdom and the incredible generosity of old people as a collector to let your behaviour towards them pass without a comment.
Sorry too that The Singers Club wasn't prepared to book your old buddy because of the homophobic nature of what he sang.   
"Tax exile"....
I'm a retired tradesmen, (electrician) now living on a State Pension, who is lucky enough to be able to spend my remaining years topping and tailing forty years of the collecting we did in our spare time, in the area we did much of that collecting, so we can leave it behind us in a usable state.
If you regard that as being a "tax exile" - you really do have a distorted picture of what working life is about
Grow up and venture out of the schoolyard - adult life really does have quite a lot to offer.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 04:10 AM

Back to the adult world.
"Jim-I would be very interested in that user-pack"
Thanks Stim
During the course of making the Maccoll programmes, I finally got down to listing the 200-odd tapes of Critics Group meetings that have lying on our shelves for the last 20-odd years.
Loasds of food for thought, if we can ever get round the 'name change'/sartorial tastes level of MacColl's work that seem to suit some people.
Will be happy to pass on anything I get together - worth a look at, at the very least.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 01:47 PM

Those who come out with outrageous bullshit don't, as per the fuzzy wuzzies, like it up em.

Yes Jim. We all know your musical tastes and we all know many of us concur to a point. But there is a hell of a lot more folk out there, covering a hell of a lot of musical genres for that matter.

Your take on the subject is interesting but nowhere near comprehensive. Clearly.

You don't like jibes but then start the next post with "back to the adult world."

Must be a lonely place this adult world. Just you and Dick sat round your emerald swimming pool with your ethic cocktails (Guinness with a spud floating on it) discussing the way millions don't seem to agree with your dictat on what is folk, why tourists fall for the plastic Paddies in Templebar, what sounds nice and whose statue decorates the centre piece of your


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 01:50 PM

Bloody technology.

I was going to say your back to back mansions in Dalkey.

There again, scorn is only funny when you hand it out Jim, eh?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 04:14 PM

Thanks, Jim. I'm looking forward to whatever you get together.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Apr 15 - 04:34 PM

Dear Musket,

For reasons that I don't really understand, several of you choose to share a name.

Obviously I can't tell which of you it is, but one of you is behaving in a really unpleasant way.

I don't know why you're doing that. Decent people don't go out of their way to hurt others. But you do.

Shame on you.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 02:04 AM

Ed. Did you ever read the story of the bloke who put up a perfectly reasonable post concerning his take on the subject of a thread, just to have two idiots pour scorn on it, try to ridicule pure opinion and insult an old traditional folk singer of the genre they usually rave over?

I think you will find the reaction of the bloke rather restrained under the circumstances.

Shame on you for being too lazy to read where Dick questioned my integrity and Jim questioned my right to an opinion on music that is not only mine but seems to resonate with many in this thread, that's this thread you haven't bothered to read. Parody is far better than calling them senile old twats or telling you to fuck off, eh pal?

You know, it is frustrating when people go out to hurt but those hurt are then questioned for their reaction. Jind you, not that I'm hurt as it were... I live in the real world where the Jims and Dicks of this world are respected for their contribution but ignored for their rants...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 04:15 AM

"Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 20 Apr 15 - 11:33 AM

"I used to drive Tom and Bertha Brown round the clubs and festivals, telling everyone I was Tom's roadie and Bertha 's groupie. Got to know all his old mates, Fred Jordan, Bert Lloyd, MacColl etc."
yes i remember Tom Brown, I am fairly sure he was mates with Fred, but as for the others that is not my recollection, I am not sure they even knew him.
I remember Tom sang a song which was in my opinion was bad taste, my second name is clarence but you can call me Clare ,mocking transexuals and transvestites"
Musket, you believe the above post questions your integrity.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 04:20 AM

i don't like mondays - another song that the public has sung along to for damn nearly fifty years. just admit it it. you don't like getting old....


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 04:32 AM

For it to be accepted as a Traditional Folk Song is has to be sung by a 100% Proof Pure Blood Traditional Folk Singer - only then will it be canonised by a Roud Number.

Let's not be slapdash about this : Folk is an exacting science and, as such, has nothing to do with the musical & cultural lives of so-called Ordinary People, which, in representing the hopes, dreams, labours, experience and aspiration of real human beings, is of precious little interest to the Folk Lords.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 04:35 AM

"you don't like getting old...."
Don't have to admit anything Al - I most certainly don't like getting old, but I would reach for the pills and the whiskey if I found myself believing a Boomtown Rats number was a folksong.
Geldoff put it in a nutshell when he entitles a 2011 album "How To Compose Popular Songs That Will Sell" - not a motivation I ever attached to making folksongs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 04:37 AM

in the aftermath of Columbine.....Mondays seems an increasingly prescient and thoughtful song. last night i saw a room full of people singing along to a lone singer guitarist singing this nearly forty year old song.


i think it has more chance of staying the tradition than MacColl's Sharpeville song - if only for the reason that it kicked off Band aid. MacColl would have loved a platform like that. any songwriter would.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 04:42 AM

If Marc Bolan was still alive, he'd be in his late 60s now...

His talent was immense.
Who knows in what directions his music might have evolved
over the decades since he died so prematurely.

Might he even have eventually returned to his hippy folkish roots...???

Bolan notoriously lived in a fantasy world of his own,
was unreliable with facts and truth,
and driven by rampant egomania...

I can only imagine how well old man Bolan would fit in at mudcat...??? 😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 04:47 AM

Mind you, this singers club is on another level. Perhaps why we don't understand this here folk music.

"The singers club wasn't prepared to book your old buddy" preceded by "when he sang it as a guest at the singers club."

Clearly there is a hidden code to listening to folk music! Perhaps if I don't get booked but get booked anyway, I can have my set classed as folk?

I'm sure that someone started a thread asking why modern music sounds so different? Obviously sounds different to the dictat of the folk police in exile eh? I wonder what they think of an album that received an award at the BBC Folk Awards yesterday, full of freshly written songs?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 04:53 AM

IMMSMC, 'I Don't Like Mondays' was introduced to the Folk circuit as a song by Dave Burland, who was much impressed by it and its relevance to modern lives, after he was somewhat reluctantly pressed by his daughter to take her to a Boomtown Rats concert.

It's certainly not a folk-song in the 1954-Definition sense, but it bloody well ought to be - it is far more relevant to what's happening in the world our children and grandchildren inhabit than any song rattling on about jolly plough-boys or shoals of herring or hunting the hare (enjoyable though they may still be to those of my generation whose interest, like mine, was piqued in Folk Music back in the '60s).

IMHO, YMMV.

And I don't like getting old either, but it doesn't blind me to the fact that this world is no longer my generation's, it belongs to our progeny, and to theirs, and they will have it their way - there's little point in trying to stop evolution.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 05:12 AM

It's certainly not a folk-song in the 1954-Definition sense

As Richard Bridge is constantly reminding us, 1954 Folk is not about a particular style of music, but about a process of adaption and adoption. As it says in the 1954 Definition : The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.

Given that it has been changed, refashioned and recreated, I'd say I Don't Like Mondays is most certainly a folk-song in the 1954 Definition sense!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 05:18 AM

Derailed again... back to earlier stuff.

Of course, you can try to get signed by a major label and go into a top flight state-of-the-art studio with a name producer and make a potential blockbuster that will storm the gossip columns and what remains of the charts. Your efforts might be as brilliant as this.

On the other hand...some modern music makes a Herculean effort not to sound modern. Hip young(ish) things head in droves to Liam Watson's Toerag Studio where he has recently added to his analogue collection by taking possession of a load of Decca's vintage castoffs, to make music that doesn't sound like it's from now. Not a band who float my boat, but Galley Beggar have just done this very thing, and they clearly believe they are a Fairport-style folk rock group from 1971.

Meanwhile, someone like Wes Tirey , one of my current favourites (check him out if you like people like Michael Hurley!), is happy with making a recording in his apartment and releasing it on cassette and via Bandcamp.

All previous rules are cancelled.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 05:29 AM

"Bolan notoriously lived in a fantasy world of his own,
was unreliable with facts and truth,
and driven by rampant egomania...

I can only imagine how well old man Bolan would fit in at mudcat...???"


Perfectly - as Musktwat No:4


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 05:32 AM

A recent youngish band I've heard of but not listened to beyond a couple of youtube tracks
is Wolf People.

I'd like to investigate further,
but I'm not convinced I'd like them enough to risk paying full price for their CDs,
despite the fair presumption that their influences are much in accord with my own...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 06:19 AM

"Given that it has been changed, refashioned and recreated, I'd say I Don't Like Mondays is most certainly a folk-song in the 1954 Definition sense!"
Utter nonsense - that is reducing folksong to repetition.
You can take any particular group of words out of any definition to make your case, but it is meaningless when the definition is taken as a whole.
Folk song was up to relative recently, the cultural creation of an entire group/class of people - a means whereby they recorded their feelings and experiences.
It is how it has been documented and it is, as far as our own experiences go, how 'the folk' see it as "our" (fishermen, Travellers, Irish building workers, small farmers, lad laboureres...) "songs"
A tiny and diminishing group of revivalists may, for reasons of their own, decide to spread that definition to include their own agendas, but until they come up with a comprehensive definition of their own, the documented one remains where it has always been.
Down the ages, Handel and Mozart have radically been changed so they no longer sound anything like they sounded when they were conceived - this does not make it folk music, nor does it mean they cease to be Classical.
Neither does subject matter nor social significance make a piece folk
Shelly wrote 'Masque of Anarchy as a reaction to the Peterloo Massacre - folk? Of course not.
Travellers made songs about selling tin and horse dealing - land labourers wrote about a favourite priest being moved on to the next parish, or taking a trip to the city, or going out and getting pissed - world shattering - no - folksong, given the transmission, almost certainly.
There has been a great deal of effort put into the idea that ordinary people never produced anything worthwile of their own, and even a greater effort more recently into showing that our folk songs are no different that the stuff churned out by the pop industry - never really understood why
For those of us who were around in the early days, the revival was w welcome release from the "I'm a pink toothbrush, your're a blue toothbrush" level outpourings of the music industry - I've never understood why so many of you want to put us back in our cages.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 06:49 AM

PFR, I would heartily recommend Wolf People. Anyone who namechecks the Groundhogs a major influence... Fain is a corking album.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:06 AM

sO EFFECTIVELY NON TRAVELLERS WHO DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT HOW THINGS ARE IN GLOCCAMORRA ARE DEBARRED FROM CREATING FOLKSONG.
cONGRATULATIONS!
YOU HAVE JUST GONE OFF THE SCALE ON THE TALKINGBOLLOXOMETER!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:12 AM

I would say that songs about fishing and about hunting are still relevant to people today,you may be correct about jolly ploughboys, although there is a small section of the population who seem to enjoy horse ploughing matches., just as there is a small section of steam railway enthiusiasts.

"Geldoff put it in a nutshell when he entitles a 2011 album "How To Compose Popular Songs That Will Sell" - not a motivation I ever attached to making folksongs"
precisely my point about songs written solely for a commercial purpose.
Cyril Tawney wrote the song On A Monday Morning, I doubt if it was,[ Ido not know whether it is a folk song or not] written solely for commercial purposes, as regards Bob Geldofs song, I do not know his motive for writing the song, so no comment.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:14 AM

Sorruy A did't understand a single word of that despite the block captials
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:20 AM

that is reducing folksong to repetition.

I don't believe there can ever be such a thing. Every time something is done it will be incrementally different from what has gone before, whatever the prototype : by chance, design or, according to Sun Ra's law, because Nature Never Repeats Itself. Even in playing a recording, you're going to hear it differently each time you listen to it, occasionally you might notice things you've never heard before. Buy a new Hi-Fi, it's like buying a whole new record collection.

Down the ages, Handel and Mozart have radically been changed so they no longer sound anything like they sounded when they were conceived - this does not make it folk music, nor does it mean they cease to be Classical.

Not sure about this; I think Early Music Practise is to try and be as exacting as possible in terms of historic performance; it's an exacting & peer-reviewed academic discipline that covers a lot of other disciplines from the reconstruction of instruments to a careful reconsideration of playing techniques. As the years roll by, you find that a recording of Vivaldi Chamber Concertos or Purcell Sonatas from 2015 is going to sound a lot better than one from 40 years earlier, but I delight in the comparison as an examination of my CD shelves will reveal.

No such thing as repetition though. Each rendering is as alike or as unalike as Trees, Grass or Crickets.      

Does that make it folk? Perish the thought! No more than Shoals of Herring (Roud 13642) or I Don't Like Mondays (no Roud number - yet!) is folk. It's just music doing what music's been doing since the earliest cro-magnon hunter-gatherer first cocked his ear to the wind blowing through the sinews of a dead whale some 50,000 years ago and sang along.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:30 AM

Even if Geldof aint one of nature's more likeable people
I think we can fairly give him benefit of the doubt that

"How To Compose Popular Songs That Will Sell"

might have been intended as an ironic tongue in cheek piss take...

Then again.. The Boomtown Rats first single was "Lookin' After No. 1 " ...???


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:32 AM

On a Monday Morning
(Cyril Tawney)

   Too soon to be out of me bed,
   Too soon to be back to this bus queue caper,
   Fumbling for change for me picture paper,
   On a Monday morning.

   Oh, where has the weekend gone?
   Oh, where are the wine and the beer I tasted?
   Gone the same way as the pay I wasted,
   On a Monday morning.

   If only the birds were booze,
   If only the sun was a party giver,
   If I could just give someone else me liver,
   On a Monday morning.

   My lover she lies asleep,
   My lover is warm, and her heart is mellow,
   I'd give the whole world just to share her pillow,
   On a Monday morning.
in my opinion these lyrics and melody are superior to Bob Geldof song, whether either of them is a folk song is not relevant, but the second songs melody sounds samey and bland to my ears, did Geldof write it purely as a money spinner?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:35 AM

Cyril, uses a tradtional sounding type melody, perhaps? it is in a certain mode, which has much in common with other traditional folk melodies, which would make folk afficianados think this sounds like a folk song from the britsh isles[ in a geographical sense]


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:52 AM

Geldoff's song is about this, rather than Mondays per se:

Cleveland Elementary School Shooting 1979


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:06 AM

are there any folk songs about the caps lock getting in the way of the folk hero expressing himself in witty forthright manner?

No use asking the horse dealers, basket weavers and pickers of wild mountain thyme. they've got their work cut out being rustic and simple.

You can't upset us sensitive artists Jim, we are used to the worlds rejection. The sting of cruel words cannot harm us. Mind you the idea about the paedo priest going off to fondle in new pastures in the village down the road would be a good one.

I could get the room singing drunken repetitious nonsense to that one.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:11 AM

I Love My Life by Demarco--great song.

Just because I'm old doesn't mean I can't like newer stuff. And I think Collin Demar Edwards is a good writer/producer. (I like listening to this song with the volume waaay up. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:20 AM

Here's the official award-winning video done by Demarco. I posted the last one so people could read the lyrics.

'I Love My Life' by Demarco.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:25 AM

How funny to see Musket (who I never believed was three people,) endorsing a homophobic song that mocks and ridicules gay and trans. folk, and actually boasting that he wrote part of it.

This same Musket falsely accuses others of homophobia and posts hate filled and abusive rants against them.
Such hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:41 AM

Jim Carroll - 24 Apr 15 - 06:19 AM

Good post agree with every word of it.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 08:54 AM

What do you think about the OP, Keith or did you come here just to rag on Musket(s)?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 10:05 AM

Must make note of date and time and send in an alert to BBC Springwatch..

A Keith A of Hertford actually spotted and verified in the music section of mudcat !!!

It's a rare sighting well outside the range of it's normal wilderness habitat...???

Biologists will will be excitedly debating just how this specimen
found it's way above the line in search of it's prey...????>😜


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 10:48 AM

"I don't believe there can ever be such a thing"
As what exactly?
Folksong is far for than repetition, which appears to be the point you were making - it's a folk song because people sing it and change it in the process - bit facile, doncha think?
The fact that things get changed don't make them "folk" - far more complicated than that
Folksongs are those used and probably made by the folk as a form of self-expression - they are, or were songs either taken into the communities from outside and adapted to fit the needs of those communities, or actually made within those communities and absorbed into them, usually losing the trace of the original maker.
Take a look at the Clare site - the number of songs that deal with the subjects that deal with community or national events, such as the cattle-drive songs or those describing what happened to those forced to emigrate ('Sons of Granuale or Seven Irishmen, for instance)
A million miles away from Boomtown Rats' somewhat meaningles and largely repetitious take on Columbine.   
Sorry - didn't understand your somewhat convoluted bit on Mozart
Folk song refers to origin and ownership - try telling Geldof et al that his song isfolk, ours, in the public domain, whatever and see how far go get with him or his legal team.
Not only is it not a folk song, but our legal system makes damn sure that it will never become one and will always belong to who wrote it, and in order for us to perform it publicly, we would have to pay for the privilege.
Lumping anything the Music Machine produces in with the 'Voice of the People' (widely used phrase - not mine) debases the coin and does what people have been trying to do for centuries - disenfranchising the people from their culture.
Hasn't this somewhat reactionary attitude already done enough damage by throwing open the 'folk song' clubs to the predatory PRS and IMRO jackals who are more than happy that we should pay for the privilege of singing our folk songs in our folk clubs.
I've stated my personal likes and dislikes, but in the end, this has nothing whatever to do with the fact that it has been recognised for over a century that these songs came from a different stable as the mass produced ones.
Any evidence to the contrary would certainly be viewed with interest, as far as I'm concerned.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:15 AM

There have been instances of old songs becoming modern hits. 'The Yellow Rose of Texas' comes to mind.

"The Center for American History at the University of Texas at Austin has an unpublished early handwritten version of the song, perhaps dating from the time of the Battle of San Jacinto in 1836.[1] The author is unknown; the earliest published version, by Firth, Pond and Company of New York and dated September 2, 1858, identifies the composer and arranger as "J.K."; its lyrics are "almost identical" to those in the handwritten manuscript, though it says it had been arranged and composed for the vaudeville performer Charles H. Brown.[1]"

from Wiki.

Here's the hit from years back. Times change, but some songs just stick around.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:32 AM

My views on this are about the same as Jim's, but he can express them with more knowledge and cred than I could so I hold back.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:43 AM

"Hasn't this somewhat reactionary attitude already done enough damage by throwing open the 'folk song' clubs to the predatory PRS and IMRO jackals who are more than happy that we should pay for the privilege of singing our folk songs in our folk clubs."
   in my experience prs and imro are more concerned with composed songs rather than traditional, the composer has to join one of these organisations and then register them and notify that they have performed them at the club,for them to take action, they are most concerned about collecting royalties on composed songs .if clubs are tradtional song only, my experience is PRS,bugger off, perhaps your experience is different, jim
otherwise i agree with you.I doubt if Geldof considers i dont like mondays to be a folk song


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 11:56 AM

As what exactly?

Repetition, of course.

Although there are always exceptions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD51AebdppA


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 12:17 PM

its not Geldof who decides that his song is a folksong. its the folks down the pub who sing it -and prs don'tpolice public performances of composed music - they say they do - but they don't. otherwise i'd be a millionaire. i've been a full member/writer of prs for 40 years, just as long as my most requested song - not my 'hit'.
the most requested and most played in pubs has never earned a penny.

its the people who decide - the folk, every time.

similarly PinkFloyd were never consulted when the children of Soweto used Another Brick in the Wall as their cri de couer, as they protested against the education system that turned into 2nd class citizens.
and by the way Geldof's song was written long before Columbine


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 12:31 PM

I Don't Like Mondays

I've never liked Geldof, but it's a good song.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 01:05 PM

"its not Geldof who decides that his song is a folksong. its the folks down the pub who sing it"
o itisn't, any more than those who go to The Last Night of the Proms decides whether 'Land of Hope and Glory is a folksong.
"Geldof's song was written long before Columbine"
Take your word on that Al - a misunderstanding of what you said.
"its the people who decide - the folk, every time."
No it isn't - it's the long term absorption into communities which make folk songs - not unanimous votes or repetition
If it were, every hymn we were ever forced to sing in school would be a folksong.
Repetition or popularity does not make a folksong - it really is more complicated than that.
Nobody gets a vote on what makes a folksong and them upstairs will never become one while you can hang a price-tag on it - those song will never be folk - they'll always belong to someone and be treated as a commodity - within our lifetimes anyway.
" they say they do - but they don't. otherwise i'd be a millionaire."
With respect Al - you are not Bob Geldof - thry telling his solicitors that his compositions ate folk because the sing it dahn the pub - or Strangers in the Night, or My Way or You'll Never Walk Alone, or Yellow Submarine.......
This really is a debasement of the coin
Imro and ORS are interested in milking whatever they are allowed to and their beilg allowed to hjas done a great deal of damage to those clubs which exist on a hand-to-mouth basis.
Son't think you ever explained your Upper-case outburst about Glochamorra and Travellers being debarred from creating folksongs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 01:26 PM

""A man sits alone on a bus. Another man gets on and sits in the seat in front of him. The man in front opens the window. The chap behind him is annoyed that he is sitting in a draft and that this person has opened the window with no thought for him, so he closes it. The other man promptly opens it again and the man behind closes it. This is repeated a few times more. When the window has been opened yet again, the man behind asks the other chap "Here mate, what"s your game?" The other man replies "Drafts and it"s your move". ""


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 01:31 PM

The silicon chip inside her head.
Gets switched to overload,
And nobody's gonna go to school today,
She's going to make them stay at home,
And daddy doesn't understand it,
He always said she was as good as gold,
And he can see no reason.
'Cause there are no reasons.
What reason do you need to be sure.

Tell me why.
I don't like Mondays.

Tell me why

I don't like Mondays

Tell me why

I don't like Mondays
I want to shoot.
The whole day down.

The Telex machine is kept so clean.
As it types to a waiting world,
And Mother feels so shocked,
Father's world is rocked,
And their thoughts turn to.
Their own little girl.
Sweet sixteen ain't that peachy keen,
No, it ain't so neat to admit defeat,
They can see no reasons.
'Cause there are no reasons.
What reason do you need oh, woaah

Tell me why.
I don't like Mondays.

Tell me why

I don't like Mondays

Tell me why

I don't like Mondays
I want to shoot.
The whole day down
Down, down
Shoot it all down

All the playing's stopped in the playground now
She wants to play with her toys a while
And school's out early and soon we'll be learning
And the lesson today is how to die,
And then the bullhorn crackles,
And the captain tackles,
With the problems and the how's and why's
And he can see no reasons
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to die

Tell me why.
I don't like Mondays.
Tell me why

I don't like Mondays

Tell me why

I don't like, I don't like, I don't like Mondays

Tell me why

I don't like, I don't like , I don't like Mondays

I want to shoot, the whole day down. ,
I disagree , i do no think it is a good song,In my opinion the tune is bland and samey, neither am i impressed with the lyrics, compare it to imagine or masters of war, two songs with strong messages and memorable tunes, so we will have to agree to disagree


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 02:03 PM

I never liked it much either... no big deal...

So what if Geldof was always more gob and ego than talent...

.. and he was never a proper authentic punk rocker either....😜

let's move on..

There are always plenty of far better artists and music to celebrate and enjoy...😎


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 03:20 PM

a quick question for the trendy folkies with browsers enabled for emoticons...

How many can you see in my last post ?

a] 1 ? - if you can see only one is it "tongue & wink" or "sunglasses" ?

b] 2 ?

c] 1 and an empty rectangle ?

My emoticon plugin seems to be playing up since I had to reinstall chrome browser
a few weeks ago... 😕

cheers...


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 03:37 PM

They all look like squares to me.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 06:41 PM

Tongue & Wink and Sunglasses on my iPad.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 06:58 PM

cheers Backwoodsman - that's interesting and odd
because my browser only shows one per post...

[I can only see tongue and wink and an empty box..]

...Time for another re-install [if i can be arsed] this weekend...???



Or I could spend some time listening to some modern music instead for a change...😜

I just asked the mrs to recommend me some up to the minute music
that her teenage nephews listen to,
and she says they mostly listen to 80s music...???😬


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 15 - 07:03 PM

most of the songs we learned at school were folksongs that the Wesleys or the Bunyans put to work.

i don't know why you can't grasp the fact that the modern world gives the writer of folksongs a greater chance of communities to absorb songs. that was my community down the pub last night and they had absorbed the Geldof song.

the coin doesn't need debasing - the whole point is that it comes from the base of society - not the handers out of subsidies, prizes, honours, doctorates....al the tags of respectability.

Can't you see that that's why these gypsy communities were able to be so creative. the English middle classes didn't get their pudgy paws on their culture and bugger it up.

what you need to grasp is what the Yank blues blues scholars had trouble getting the hang of. they called muddy waters music..the blues in decadence...the last gasp of culture in a violent decadent society.

the animus to write song -its there in humankind like the urge to so sing, to dance, to express your identity.
And when it happens without the pat on the shoulder from matron....its folksong. it will change, it will be stolen by the people to use how they wish.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 03:35 AM

"How blah blah to see Musket endorsing a homophobic song"

Amazing. I wrote part of it, you TC. It is taking the piss out of both those who see being gay as a threat to society and those who put mealy mouthed platitudes. Remind you of anyone Keith? Prat.

Mind you, by trying to turn it into a homophobic song, Dick, (through his lack of grasp on reality) and Keith (his track record in homophobic posts in the BS section) are turning Mitch's little ditty into a folk song in the 1954 tradition. Irony or what?

Terribulus. Thanks for saying Marc Bolan would have made a good Musket. Sadly, although two of us still perform, none of us have his talent, vision, ability or looks.

"Me I funk but I don't care!
I ain't no square with my corkscrew hair."

Poetry .

Notice that? Keith A Hole of Hertford and Terribulus make a solitary contribution each, neither about the thread, both about their fan fixation with me. (And me.). (And me.) 😎

By the way Al, I (that's the me typing) sing regularly at a folk club 100yds from where Charles Wesley sat writing words to traditional melodies. Does it give me inspiration? Err.. No. Pity, but that's my fault for being rational I suppose.

Mind you, I have written folk songs. Quite a few in fact. If your signature isn't on the pompous 1954 dictat, you can safely ignore it.

A bit like Peggy Seeger's new folk album.... Or the many folk songs Ewan MacColl wrote.

Ditto Vin Garbutt.

Ditto John Connolly

Ditto Bernie Parry

Ditto Seth Lakeman

Ditto Martin Simpson

Shall we cross the pond yet?

Ditto Bob Dylan

Ditto Tom Paxton

Ditto Louden Wainwright III

Ditto quite a few in fact...

You could say that the term "folk song" has evolved



In the 1954 tradition..
😂😂😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 03:57 AM

"gives the writer of folksongs a greater chance of communities"
You seem to want to persist with this silliness without qualifying your arguments Al, so here goes
Nobody sits down and writes folksongs - they evolve by selection, adaptation and transmission - somebody writes a song, passes it on and whether it is widely accepted or not decides whether or not it becomes "folk"- repeating it down the pub regularly doesn't feature in that process.
Songs like 'Mondays' don't stand a chance of being part of that process as their writers make damn sure that anything done with them is bought and paid for.
You want to call the song a folk song - who agrees with you - I've never met anybody crass enough to claim that what Elvis, or The Boomtown rats, or Cliff Richard... sings is 'folk', other than a folkie.
Do the lads down the pub call it folk?
They don't in our local, so it must be folk where you live but not here in Clare
This makes a nonsense of the language and destroys all chance of intelligent communication.
I came to the music as a listener, than as a singer - later I became more deepply interested and began to research, and eventually collect.
If I wanted information, I would go to the books - 'Folk Songs in Britain' 'English Folk Song, Some Conclusions', 'The Ballad Tree', 'Living With Ballads'
Then there were the collections, 'The Penguin books' from various countries', Child. Sharp, Greig........ over a a centuries worth of study and collecting, trying to come to terms with this special and unique music.
Can you show me where Boomtown Rats features in all that, or The Beatles, or Gerry and the Pacemakers?
'Course you can't, because they don't
The misuse of the term is by a handful of self-interested folkies, some of them, it would seem have no knowledge or particular liking of folk song.   
So again - what body of research do I go to to find that 'I Don't Like Mondays' is a folk song - what collection of folk songs will I find it in?
Give us a break Al - adapting the language only works if everybody does it enough for it to be established as a definition U.D.I. (Unilateral Declaration of Independence) doesn't hack it if we are going to continue talking to each other and make sense
As I said - a debasement of the coin.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:25 AM

I more or less agree with all you write on this subject Jim, but how would you categorise performers like Sting and the songs he has written, for example..".Mine the black seam" and Fields of gold".

A serious question, not a wind-up.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:32 AM

Musket, here is the song you helped write.
It mocks gay and trans people.
Only a homophobe would perform such a thing.
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/folk-song- lyrics/My_Proper_Name_is_Clarence.htm

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=8549


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:32 AM

"Mind you, by trying to turn it into a homophobic song, Dick, (through his lack of grasp on reality)"
Jim Carroll, has seconded my recollection of Tom Brown singing that particular song, strange that two unconnected people are out of touch with reality.
I happen to like Stings work that includes the wilson family, an example of modern music that in my opinion is not bland and samey, I am not sure what its description is perhaps roots music is apt.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:35 AM

Sorry, link no good.

My Proper Name is Clarence
My Proper Name is Clarence
(John "Mitch" Mitchell)

While sitting in a hostelry, alone one Sunday night,
A fella came across to me and asked me for a light,
He offered me a cigarette; he bought me half a beer,
And we were getting friendly when he whispered in my ear.

cho: "My proper name is Clarence, but you can call me Clare,
    I wear sexy undies and I peroxide my hair,
    My politics are liberal, my outlook's liberal too,
    In fact my dear, I'm a little bit queer and I've taken a shine to you."

Well I supped my jar; I left that bar, faster than a scalded cat,
Caught the landlord's eye as I went by and I stopped just for a chat,
I said, "Hey, he's propositioned me. Do you allow that there 'ere?"
Well he didn't get riled, in fact he just smiled and he whispered in my ear.

Well off I did go, to the new disco, to find myself a bride,
Picked up this pearl of a pastry girl, took her for a ride,
In the back of the car, I got so far, then I froze with fear,
When I felt a lump and my heart went thump and a voice whispered in my ear.

Next day at eight, I called my mate, he promised not to tell,
By a quarter to nine the production line, the foreman knew as well,
They called me misses and they blew me kisses, the boss he got to hear,
For me he sent, to the office I went and he whispered in my ear.

I joined the health service, to train to be a nurse,
With stethoscope and fob watch, with pride I fair did burst,
My charge nurse said he'd teach me, the kiss of life technique,
Well first he turned the lights down and when he began to speak, he said,

"My proper name is Clarence, but you can call me Clare,
I wear sexy undies and I peroxide my hair,
My politics are liberal, my outlook's liberal too,
In fact my dear, I'm a little bit queer and I've taken a shine to you.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:40 AM

Whence the difference?
Still Sting's song and always will be - doesn't make it a good or bad song.
It's not the subject matter which makes a song 'folk'
I neer once, in the years I knew him, heard MacColl refer to one of his songs as 'folk', though he was takig his subjects from working lives and quite often, basing his language on recorded actuality taken from people like Jack Elliot, or Sam Larner or The Stewarts.
He went out of his way to point out that his songs weren't folk songs and at no time was he part of a club that called itself a 'folk club'.
The argument was that it was possible to get pleasure from singing and listening to the songs and it was also possible to use the forms of folk songs to make new songs - whether they became 'folk' really wasn't our decision to make - that was down to posterity.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:58 AM

A couple of occasional verses missing and one there not written by Mitch, nor me, nor Larry West (who has contributed a verse or two.). It is a living folk song you see, and adding verses from time to time to reflect current affairs..

When Blunt was revealed as a spy, Mitch wrote a verse with "James Bond and them think my name's M". You can guess the rest.

By the way, as the bloke who wrote the car verse, it is Page 3 girl, not pastry girl.

"Only a homophobe would sing such a thing."

Let's see, McMusket had "Clarence Corner on a plaque where he and his then boyfriend and mates used to hang out at The Frog and Nightgown in Worksop. One of the best ovations I ever had was at a fundraiser for Amnesty International after I sang it, following a speech by a (young) Stephen Fry about gay persecution and torture in certain African States and..

The best bit.. Or worst bit, depending on context.

Tom Brown started singing it following his grandson being put in hospital by some thugs outside a gay bar in Nottingham.



You know Keith...

Seriously..

You really are the lowest form of despicable creature, aren't you?

It's becoming less funny laughing at you, it really is. Your true character seems to be coming out. Hopefully, Musket won't read this as he is still in India and other than an email over our holiday plans this year to go and see them, he hasn't bothered with Mudcat whilst away, so won't catch up.

It can't be nice, being gay and then reading your twisting counter bigotry.

Dick not seeing the irony, I can understand. His posts aren't always rational anyway. Jim can't even remember what he types, as he has or hasn't had Tom Brown at the singers' club. (I know the answer by the way.). But Keith tries to put himself about as being serious, and that makes Mudcat hum a bit from the stain.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 05:09 AM

"as he has or hasn't had Tom Brown at the singers' club."
Yup - Whatever you might "know" Tom was booked at the singers o the recommendation of Frankie Armstrong - got the programme with his name on it somewhere
He upset several of the audience with his song, so he was not asked back.
"Jim can't even remember what he types"
When did I ever say different?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 05:30 AM

You said he never was booked, then you said he was. I was questioning your consistency when pulling others up over irrelevant points. Live with it.

I drove him there. (He went back on the train as I recall, I must have had some other work commitments. Long time ago, sketchy memories. Still, it doesn't matter because only Keith is interested now, and he covers his own agenda by calling everyone else liars.)

Frankie was booked at Worksop by Mitch (small world eh?) about a year ish previously, which is where it possibly stemmed from. Tom and Bertha were regulars, living walking distance from the club.

"I heard a singer in a club, Singing quite off key
A retired teacher of a Christian bent, shouting "Tra la lee!"
Everybody in The Great Eastern pointed, laughing in their beer,
He said "they lie through their teeth,
My real name's not Keith,
And he whispered in my ear.."


Getting rusty. It scans with the tune though.

Tsk. I said he is below laughing at him, but I'm a kind hearted old Musket really.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 05:46 AM

The song as reprinted by Keith, seems designed to get a cheap laugh out of homosexuality and homosexuals.....is this "homophobia"?

"Homophobia" is defined as irrational hatred or fear of homosexuals.

The song is not to my taste, as I think the issue too serious to be joked about. I would never sing or applaud such a piece.
I agree about the hypocrisy involved by the authors.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 06:16 AM

"You said he never was booked, then you said he was."
Where?
I didn't and he was
I'm not interesr#ted in prolonging this - you have done so with your calling people liars than your stiupid reasons for his doing so.
For crying out loud - you are doing yourself no favours, nor are you helping Tom Brown's memory - he was an old singer who sang a distasteful song which proved unacceptable for our audience - end of story as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 06:45 AM

Musket, you say you wrote the car verse, but I would have guessed the National Health verse that plays to the stereotype of the gay male nurse.

Perhaps you are ashamed of it.
You should be.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 07:16 AM

I'm ashamed on behalf of Musket for meeting you and not weighing up the odious part of you..

NHS? What has that to do with a twenty odd year old miner? Meeting a lass at a club resonates I suppose, but no lump, no Adams Apple either. Most folk songs I wrote were well before getting involved in healthcare, although I have never actually been employed in The NHS as such, just chairing bodies, working for regulators and providing consultancy support to turn round failing services. (Musket and Musket are NHS through and through of course, but don't forget, the whole point of sharing a log in is because of posts such as yours above. I rest my case..)

Mind you, in the same way as Warren Mitchell and Johnny Speight were role models in flushing out bigotry by laughing at them by seeming to laugh with them (Alf Garnett) we too seem to have suffered the same fate.

If you can't laugh at stereotypes, you may wish to ask if you laugh with them.

Perhaps you might want to question Akenaton as to why he can't laugh at satirising homophobes. Silly me.. You never do, do you?


Oh..

Jim.

Here you go. From one of your posts above, after you mentioned the singers club booking Tom, you then later said,


"Sorry too that The Singers Club wasn't prepared to book your old buddy because of the homophobic nature of what he sang."


Don't get me wrong. I make allowances for age, confusion and blinkered views, but as you don't, I thought it best to pull you up. I'm sure a younger you would understand.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 07:53 AM

no don't the blokes down the pub, or even people like you Jim to call it a folksong. they can call it aurora borealis, they can call it Stenhourmuir, they can call it a velociraptor.

What i want you to try and grasp is that once its in the folks's heads. it IS folksong. it IS theirs! THEY ARE FREE TO DO WHAT THEY LIKE WITH IT!

and that is the nature of folksong.

that is how folk song is created.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 08:08 AM

God preserve us from these sanctimonious eejits who think they can look at the printed words of a song and elicit its sentiments without hearing it sung in context. The whole point of song lyrics is that, unlike poetry, they are incomplete in themselves, just as the notes on a page do not anything like fully represent a jig or a reel. What Keith and Akenaton are up to amounts to no more than bitter, opportunistic sniping. Very demeaning.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 08:34 AM

"they can call it aurora borealis, they can call it Stenhourmuir, they can call it a velociraptor."
But they don't, any more than they call it 'folk sng' - you're the only one who does that.
"THEY ARE FREE TO DO WHAT THEY LIKE WITH IT!"
Except circulate or sing it publicly - not without paying royalties for doing so - the basic difference between folksong and commercially produced folsongs.
I take it you can give no references to your definition being an established one course you can't - one doesn't exist, therefore you made it up - language and communication doesn't work like that any more than your definition(sic) of folksong doesn't work like that.
Sorry al - debasing both folk song and the English language..
Muskie
You are now deliberately distorting what I said
My first reference to Tom was:
"fraid he did - was there when he sang it as guest at the Singers Club - got up a few people's noses and we didn't book him again."
Clear and plain enough for anybody to read - my second posting (which to took out of context) was a repetition of the first
For ***** sake Muskie, if you haven't got the sense to come in out of the rain on your own behalf - for the sake of the memory of Tom Brown, have the decency to leave him to rest.
I have no time for Keith, Ake or The Skibbereen Stalker, but you are feeding them their ammunition like an Ernie Wise on speed - leave it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 09:13 AM

You started it you silly old bugger! You brought up I Don't Like Mondays in order to make me look a twat, just like the low life you reckon I am feeding! Seems some people who have a less constrained view on folk agree with Mr Burland and yours truly. (I might be opening for him soon at a concert, just been asked.)

I weighed in to this debate discussing musical taste versus definition. The fan club came later, and in this, both you and your Skibbereeen Stalker are waiting at the stage door with the rest of them.

Christ on a bike. I came here to discuss music, not feed Keith or his worm's personality disorder.

Can we please get back to the subject?

Folk music is what you say it is. If you happen to be called Jim. It is what I say it is if you are called Ian, ditto Al etc. It has evolved (as your 1954 dictat allows) into modern interpretation and relaying modern song. The format is irrelevant. Whether a broadsheet peddler makes a penny or Geldof makes a million is neither here nor there.

Even your mentor MacColl wrote songs to be the folk songs of tomorrow, by his own account. Considering it's getting on thirty years since he last wrote a song, I reckon the cock is crowing on tomorrow, don't you?

I don't like Mondays is even older.....


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 10:06 AM

Steve, the song mocks people who are gay or trans.
Musket, why do you claim to have met me?
It matters not to me if we did or did not, but as yet we have not.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 10:46 AM

"Can we please get back to the subject?"
Fine as far as I'm concerned
It would help if clowns like yourself stopped thowing phrased about like "dictat", "mentor" and the rest of the diversive garbage you go in for.
I've said why I believe folk song to be unique - totally different from output of the music industry - always somebosy elses and never ours (uness we pay for it - music of the working people, their cultural creations and our heritage - neglected by the media / dismissed by many of the folkies who disregard it and have now arbitrarily decided it means something else - back into the arms of the music machine.
Try dealing with that instead of feeding the trolls.
You were the one who put up a long and insulting argument about Boomtown Rats being "folk"
Justify it or stop complaining when it is brought up
It isn't - show why it is.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 10:50 AM

Who is the Skibbereen Stalker?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 11:00 AM

Jeez...yet another initially interesting discussion descends into a series of sniping posts and counter-posts from "the usual suspects".

Outta here.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 11:03 AM

If I had written or lauded such a song, I would have been torn to shreds on this forum.
Fortunately I have no hatred for homosexuals, and do not care to see them being made a laughing stock......satire?   I doubt it, but the irony of a hypocrite being exposed is satisfying.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 11:31 AM

I haven't met you Keith. Musket has though. As I recall reading, as you read the same post, he went to a folk club in Hertford and was introduced to you. If you look, I think he said who introduced you. He might post himself to say when but he did say it was when he doing locum posts and staying in B&Bs. That has to be over three years ago and certainly before he was Musket. Possibly before I was for that matter.

I know that people must obviously avoid you, but all the same...   He did say you didn't come over as a swivel eyed militaristic right wing loony like your posts portray you as. I'd take the compliment if I were you.

I do know a couple who know you though. No agenda there. Just that they mentioned it once when Mudcat came up in conversation.

No Keith. The song mocks you. Every time you claim health statistics support Akenatons wish to round people up and put them on a register. Every time you promote UKIP policies.

Jim. I never called Boomtown Rats a folk band. Punk, new wave, pop, Oirish at a push maybe, rock? Never folk though.

However, a song that records an event, mindset of a time and place etc for posterity? Yeah, it ticks more boxes than titilation broadsheets such as Bonny Black Hare. Just as easy to sing in a folk club with a guitar for that matter. I agree with the folk singer from the folk clubs for almost fifty years, big Dave.

He knows a bit about folk music you see....


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 12:08 PM

"Jim. I never called Boomtown Rats a folk band."
You said "Mi#odays" was a folk song - ergo......
"However, a song that records an event, mindset of a time and place etc for posterity"
It's said to have been inspired by a schoolyard massacre, but unless you knew that you wouldn't have a clue what it was about - the difference between folk songs and most of the modern output.
May be easy to sng in the folk clubs you're involved with - the audiences in the clubs would have sat bemused (if they hadn't gone down to the bar to fill up during a 'silly spot")
They/we liked their songs to actually say and communicate something.
The fact that Dave Burland likes and sang the song is indicative of his taste - nothing else - but a mentor is a mentor, I suppose.
You still seem to be stuck with "it's a folksong if I day so".
"Titialtion", bawdry and eroticism, such as to be found in Bonny Black Hare, goes through or national culture like Blackpool goes through rock and always has done - part of the way we identfy ourselves - folksong, in my opinion, handles it brilliantly.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 12:32 PM

this threads getting more than a little bogged down in the usual negativity... oh well...

So i've never heard of the 'offending' song, and just read the lyrics...

well.. it's hardly "Sing if You're Glad to be Gay"
but it don't strike me as any more actively homophobic than any other daft comedy songs of it's era.

The fact that it's writers claim it to be liberally satirising homophobes
shouldn't be disregarded...

Our teen band of the 70s fell into a similar trap with a clumsily written anti racist song
which a fukwitted loud mouth art student writing for a student mag
claimed to be a racist song,
therefore he decreed we were a racist band to be vilified...😖


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 12:50 PM

So.. If it is a folk song, it has to be a folk singer? Ergo indeed..,

So when Walter Pardon sang a music hall song for The BBC, his reputation as a folk singer was shot!

Do think things through Jim. You see, in your own limited corner of folk you have a degree of credibility. It's your insistence that folk begins and ends with your 1% of it that puts you in the list of odd people who say daft things.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 01:04 PM

its your insistence that a load of authorities on folk music back the days when talking shit was the prerogative of every upper class know all knows more about folk music than we do.

thats what pisses everybody off.

allright you have have put your trust in a slew of middle class bores,

my fifty years gigging in almost exclusively working class venues tells me that your authorities have misled you somwhat.

Bunyan re-writing our Captain cried all hands didn't stop it from being folk music. folk used it. for their funerals; weddings; to sing in the back of buses. as an expression of joy and hope.

i'm sorry you don't get it. but folk music is ours. not a gang of gypsies in the arse end of nowhere. not the english ping pong and prance lot. not ewan maccoll's.

ours! the peoples ! publishers have no jurisdiction over five year old kids in the schoolyard, sportsmen after a match, singers in the top room of a folk club, singers with a pissed up audience half hour before slinging out time, carousers round the campfire. in all these situations the prs and the folk song collectors are still at home sipping sherry and talking bollocks to thosE who are daft enough to believe them.

WE OWN THE MUSIC!!!


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 01:37 PM

Musket, everything you just said about me was made up, and the song does mock gay people.

It could be made worse by pouting and flouncing, but however understated   is still unacceptable.


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 01:41 PM

What is unacceptable imo are nasty back and forths in the music section. I'd be happy to start a BS thread so's y'all can b&c. Howzat?


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Subject: RE: Why does modern music sound so different
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 02:20 PM

So ok keith..

as you seem to have no regard for a songwriter's stated intended meaning and purpose;
and are perhaps a little unforgiving where a song is on the borderline of ambiguity,
and rendered dated by time and more sophisticated public awareness of a social issue...

Are you now going to lead us in a rousing chorus of "Sing if You're Glad to be Gay"
as an act of support and solidarity...???😜


btw.. it's so nice to see you in the music section...😉


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