BS: WTO

Subject: WTO
From: reggie miles
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:07 AM

This year I've been having fun performing Christmas sawngs on my razor sharp handtool on the street at the Pike Place Market. Since the 1994 Christmas season, when I first debuted, flexing a piece of razor sharp spring steel between my knees for entertainment of all those passerbys has become a personal holiday tradition. This year the streets are brimming with out-of-towners many are here in Seattle this week because of the WTO gathering. The air seems to be buzzing with talk of the protest demonstrations that will take place, marches, civil disobedience, arrests. The overt presence of law enforcement authorities everywhere leaves me wondering why all the show? The FBI has declared one of the meetings off limits to all but nine token protesters. They say it's in the interest of national security. This is all just a bit disconcerting to me because i've witnessed, when concentrations of authorities gather, they seem to over-react with impunity. Using a rifle case as I do to carry my saw around in could become a dangerous predicament.

Nervous but harmless

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:26 AM

It may prove prudent to carry your "saw" in a carpenters tool kit for the time being, considering what happened at the OPEC conference in Vancouver fairly recently. Canadian powers that be, are usually considered a little more restrained than American, except of course when they are "dealing" with First Nations individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:33 AM

Met, the only pleasant thing to come out of that embarrassment was the knowledge that the pepper spray had been tested on a number of the cops before being used on the protesters.
Rick

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: reggie miles
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:57 AM

I know techincally this is not about music rather only my experiences in this small corner of the planet but this scene here, this week in Seattle, is what protest songs are made of. Right against might, good against evil, David against Goliath, people against the system. It's brought all manner of factions together unifying them in a common cause to speak out against the injustice being perpetuated by this good ol' boys club the WTO. Makes me proud to be an American.

Because of the recent turn of the seasons the rain and cold have become more prevalent here in the Northwest. This makes what I enjoy doing a bit more of a challenge because the steel that my saw blade is made of is prone to rust. So I sought out a permit to perform in the underground Metro bus tunnel where it's warm, dry and resonably quiet. The Westlake plaza site is closest to all the major shopping downtown and to the event unfolding with the WTO. I managed to get to the site entance without being accosted by over zealous, action starved "peace" commandos. Then came the test. As I entered the stairway leading to where I was going to perform, there were four authorities just in front of me on the escalator. When we reached the bottom they paused and as I passed they called out, "Hold on there. What have you got in there?" Then they surrounded me, hands on weapons and ready for action. I told them, as I've told nervous law enforcement types in the past that they wouldn't believe me if I told them. Then one senior officer steps forward to feel my rifle case and I volunteer, "It's a musical instrument." I ask them if they would like to hear a song and manage to convince them to hang a minute and listen. The really tense moment came when I unzipped my case as it lay on the ground to retrieve my saw. As none of them were certain I wasn't just some kind of crazed lunatic with a death wish, the moment reminds me of those western movie scenes where the two gun slingers face off waiting for the other to draw his weapon first. There was an eerie silence and it seemed as though no one breathed a breath, waiting. You could almost hear the sigh of relief when I pulled out my blade. I guess they had other duties, or bigger fish to fry as they say. They only caught half of Sawlent Night before deciding I was no threat, and started to wander off to seek other more dangerous types to engage. I called to them as they walked away, "What you're only gonna listen to half the sawng?" and I asked if they would be so kind as to inform the rest of their crew that the guy with the rifle case is a musician. They did but as it turned out the Metro bus tunnel plaza area wasn't such a good sight to busk in, at least not that evening.

As I wandered down the corridor looking for another spot to play, having been unsuccessful at the first I spied what I thought might be a good location. Just as I was about to sit down, one of them real life police action scenes began to take place. Down the way was a man being pursued by no less than half a dozen security types. The chase ended right where I was about to perform. The police and security personnel wrestled the guy to the ground and did their thing with the cuffs. The guy wouldn't go peacefully so there was a kind of an instant replay of the whole wrestling bit while they also shackled him. They finally had to just carry the man off, which was no easy task as he must have weighed 300 lbs or more. I quickly backed away and watched the event unfold. Then I walked up to some of the people waiting in line to get their bus passes who had witnessed the confrontation as I did and asked the rhetorical question, "This probably isn't a good time for me to play Christmas songs on my musical saw, is it?" and went home.

Bringing you all the action as it happens from fertile fields of revolution, this is Reggie Sawman Miles signing off.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:05 AM

Make sure if you do carry in a carpenters case, that you can prove a legitimate reason for actually carrying it - they may try to do you for carrying a weapon anyway, unless you can prove it is a work tool or part of a costume or instument. Try walking around in mediaeval costume and see how many police men suddenly appear as if by magic......

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:51 AM

Or simply shaving your head, that'll bring 'em out in droves. Reggie I am interested in anything you want to write about how you see things happening there in Seattle so please keep posting updates. I remember going to one of the Ontario Days of Action in Hamilton and discovering that a friend of mine and all of her co-workers were scared to death of it. They thought things might be ugly and violent. It surprised me because we were talking about a group that included a large number of teachers and nurses; a segment of our population not generally known for their violent tendencies.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Áine
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 06:43 PM

Geez loueez, reggie, after watching the news and listening to the radio today, I sure hope you weren't anywhere near downtown today! I've experienced pepper spray myself, and I guarantee you it's not a wonderful experience!

Maybe you should set up near the AFL-CIO folks -- they seem to have it more together than the rest of people on the streets there.

Take care, Áine

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 02:39 AM

Who says teachers are not known for violence - I got my skull fractured by a teacher and a nurse tried to beat me up in a car park.....

If you worked with those little ...... darlings.... all day, wouldn't you want to hit something??

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: reggie miles
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 10:07 AM

Yesturday was both a glorious and tragic day. Glorious because so many thousands were willing to take to the streets in protest of what they rcognized as a great evil that needed to be stopped. Tragic because there were those, though small in number, whose aim was to take advantage of the goals and actions of the peaceful demonstrations that took place.

I awoke early yesturday morning hoping to get a jump on the events that were about to unfold. The demonstrators were meeting before dawn at a park north of the Market. I figured if I hurried I could beat the traffic jam that could keep me from my destination, playing on the street at Pike Place. I flipped on the television as I was preparing to leave to catch what news I could about possible delays due to the marches that were scheduled to take place. I wasn't certain what to expect but playing music on the street is like that so I packed my guitar as well as my saw. As reports about what was happening downtown began to air I grew excited in anticipation of the day's events. All the way in I kept my radio on to the only station that was covering the event. Things were starting to get ugly with the police. They began using tear gas against those trying to block the intersections. I wasn't aware that my departure from home, an hour from Seattle, though late, couldn't have been timed more perfectly. Traffic was light so I made good time getting to the city. As I came to the bottom of the off ramp I saw that the several police were at the intersection and when I glanced to the right I realized why. A huge group of marchers were approaching. Before the light could turn green the police waved us through. Then at the very next light I glanced to the left to see another large group of marchers coming down the street. I made my way quickly to the Market area to find parking and prepare for the long day of busking. Along the way police could be seen at every intersection. I imediately found a space to park, which can be quite a challenge this time of the year, glad to see that the weather was clearing and that once again the predictors of such things were wrong and it wasn't going to rain all day. As I glanced about though the area seemed rather deserted. I looked up at a patch of blue that began to open above me and saw faint rainbow which gave me hope for the days activities.

I decided to pack my stuff in the trunk and take a little walk about to see what was going on six blocks away down Pike Street. I felt drawn to the events by some unknown force. I wasn't prepared for what I saw. Thousands were there in the streets carrying signs willing to stand up for what they believed in. Young and old chanting and costumed all there to be a part. I couldn't help myself and began telling people, "It's a great day to be an American." To which one person said, "It's a great day to be human." It was a great day to be a protester too.

More later, I've got to get back out there.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Mike Billo
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 10:13 AM

Best wishes Reggie; I just heard that the governor of Washington has declared a state of emergency and is calling out the National Guard.This move always means massive repression by the company goons (WTO being the ultimate company).

Gee, who would have anticipated that the world would finally express displeasure against the rape of the planet and slave labor?

Take good care of yourself Reggie, and let us know how it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Áine
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 10:15 AM

Dear reggie,

I'm so glad to hear that you're still in one piece. Take care out there today and remember to stay downwind!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Áine
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 10:16 AM

Oops! Of coure, I really meant UPWIND! Only one cup of coffee so far this morning, sorry!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 11:19 AM

Reggie, Thanks for the posts, your perspective is refreshing. As a person who is there in spirit, but corporeally confined to Detroit, I appreciate news that isn't defined by the head of the National Association of Manufacturers. I would like your feedback on how the labor, environmental, student and other groups are getting along, in the streets. All we are really being shown out here are the trashing, and some of the more "unusual" images. I always felt many of those were agents provocateurs, probably still are... Thanks, take care.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 11:19 AM

Reggie,

A rifle case (leather with zipper) was a perfect way to carry my saw around when I was on the road with it. But the reaction I used to get when walking through Ohare Field's corridors in Chicago made me quit using that---as good as it was. I really got tired of searches and explaining it all over again. More recently the damn thing always set off the metal detectors. But I also had a guitar and a banjo to lug around. I wound up eliminating the saw problem by mounting my saw securely into the top of my banjo case (inside). To keep the teeth from doing a number on the one pont where they touched the case/plush, I mounted a coffee can lid (bent in half) at that point and mounted it securely in there with a screw and a nut. That served as a fairly secure groove to slide the saw into and it held it in place pretty well. For extra security, and so the saw did no damage to my banjo, I put a layer of sponge-foam between the two instruments---extra padding over the bridge. Of course, make certain the banjo case is large enough (too large for the banjo in question) to accomodate both. Extra foam padding can take up any residual space if necessary. A Gibson Mastertone hardshell case was perfect for a Bart Reiter Whyte Lady or a Vega Tubaphone banjo plus a saw, bow, jew's harps, nose flutes---whatever.

If you're the same Reggie Miles who has been working with Magpie (Terry Leonino and Greg Artzner) be sure to give them best wishes and salutations from an old friend from days gone by. It's nice to meet you here in cyberspace. Tell Greg & Terry that their great version of the song about "THE DIGGERS" that they do seems right on at this sad time in Seattle. Psychic waves of support are going out from here, and that's for certain. Sometimes it takes a 2 X 4 up side the head to get the mules attention. Deja (Grant Park-1968) Vu all over again. 'Tis said that history repeats. But why does it COST us twice as much every time around ! Previously, the only thing the students at our University of Illinois bothered to get upset over was the university powers-that-be said that they could no longer carry open liquor and beer around campus with them. It's good to see, at the Millenium, that so many good folks are thinking about the future of our planet !!

All the best. Hope to've saw you one day in the near future.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Kathleen Morgain
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 09:44 PM

Thanks to NPR, I've been able to hear some of the speeches from inside the WTO venues, Our local television news operations, have mainly been "covering" the events outside. One of our more venerable anchors tonight described the scene as the embodiment of the police state.

I work for one of the stations, helping the international news organizations to send their feeds via fibre and Satellite. The coverage seems evenhanded. The emphasis from all is what is happening here in the streets. The first day's coverage featured the variety of groups here to demonstrate their concerns over living wages, child labor, environmental regulations and the lack of accountability by WTO participants decisions to the world's rank and file. I believe it was well conveyed that the thousands who made the commitment to come here are united by a concern for economic fairness and inclusiveness. The later stories sent dealt more with the trashing of the various storefronts and the trash fires, tear gas and confrontations that took place late in the day.

I have yet to get to work to see what is going out tonight from today's events. I hear helicopters over my house now. I see on the local news that the police are arresting people even outside their control zones. These people are peacefully resisting, reminding any who will hear of their right to assemble.

I do hope "the whole world is watching".

Thanks 'catters, for "listening". I obviously can't talk about my feelings at work.

-Kathleen

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 10:04 PM

It is heartening to see that masses of people are coming together at last to protest what is being done to our freedoms, our economies, our lives, and our planet by the corporations our government is selling itself to--any word from any of the major candidates in support of the demonstrations? I haven't had much time to listen to KPFA, our best local source of non-corporate news (I've been spending too much time here--and have got to get back to the real world--but--to paraphrase e.e.cummings--mudcat addiction is a comfortable disease.

Reggie, thanks for the inside look at what's going on--I'm on the edge of my seat reading your posts.

--seed

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: SpitWhistle
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 01:44 AM

I think I'll take a disenting opinion here... free trade is good... its about freedom. And that isn't what the unions, environmentalists and Buchanans of the world are really interested in.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Benjamin
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 04:21 AM

It might be "heartening"to see people coming together over what they believe in. But the with all the litter, tied up traffic (like there wasn't enough already!) tear gas, chaos, etc. the protesters (who are mostly from out of town) are creating, it has all left this young college boy heartless!

Isn't if funny how all these guys come in with sea turtle and butterfly costumes protesting enviromental issues while dropping their coke bottles, wrappers, and other litter on the ground, tieing up traffic and making the air that much worse? Sure, it was a small group with no diretion who trashed storefronts and knocked over trash cans, but the protesters created the ennviroment which made that group feel it was okay and luered the police away from the scene where they trashed everything. The rest of the guys did there part. Of course though, they are all from out of town and will be gone once the WTO moves on, what do they care?

A friend of mine who has a condo down town was asked by his wife to open up the window for some air. When he opened up the window, tear gas came into his place! Just the enviroment for a man and his blind wife to raise their 1 month old daughter.

I HATE these protesters! They turned a prospering city into chaos in a day! Thanks to the protesters "trying to protect my freedom" I lost my freedom just to go down town last night! I don't take much for granted anymore, but I do expect the right to walk the streets of the city was born in and have lived in my whole life! Do these guys really have the freedom to just come in, trash the place and turn the city to chaos then just leave? Their appologies are SO FAKE! They said from the begining that they would try to bring the city to a virtual stand still, which would make it difficult for guys like me to just go on and live our lives.

If you want to see people gathering over what they believe in, Go To Church! If you lived in this city, you wouldn't call the protests (which all that is really going on is a bunch of out of towners are making the natives lives as difficult as they can "heartening."

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 05:39 AM

Hmmm...wonder how the natives feel about the WTO crowd coming into their backyards and trashing their environment. Of course, they are just the little people so what does it matter if their water gets polluted, their economy goes to hell, and disease runs rampant, as long as upwardly mobile Americans etc. can have their way without being confronted with such *trivial* matters.

While it is a shame everyone didn't pick up after themselves, the protesters' trash is only on the surface, unlike the oil spills, etc. of some of the corporations involved in the WTO; easily cleaned up/recylced surface trash is preferable to the long-term effects of such damaging practises in which the ordinary citizen of whatever country usually gets no say. Keeping your windows closed for a day or two; not going out for an evening or two seems a small price to pay for trying to save the planet. It is after all our only home.

Kathleen and Reggie, thank you very much for posting and letting us know what is happneing. NPR has had some good coverage, too.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 06:06 AM

For some intersting and very diverse coverage, you all might want to check out the Independent Media Center in Seattle.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:23 AM

So, do you drive a car, kat? Or ride in a bus or a train? It's either the occasional oil-spill or back to the horse & cart, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:54 AM

No buses or trains in Wyoming and I grew up an oilfield brat. There are plenty of horses. I, as an individual, have been doing what I can for years to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, as well as other individual measures to help save our planet.

With the technology we have today, you can't tell me we can't find alternative energies which would cost less and also that they can't build safer transport for the black crude. The only way we will get the oil companies et al to cave in and give up their almost absolute control of society's moblity etc. is for the people to unite and say enough is enough. It is heartening to see people unite in this instance because generally I don't hold much faith in the American public to give a rat's ass about much these days.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:22 AM

I have to say that the nature of some of the later posts suggest that the choices we have are to allow untrammeld industry to exist, or pursue a luddite, anti-technology stance. Clearly there is a different possibility. I work for a Union that represents oil, chemical, paper,and nuclear workers, as well as others. These workers have largely been responsible for some of the most useful applications of health, safety and environmental regulations that protect both the workforce in the plant, and the communities surrounding the plants. The concept of FREE trade vs FAIR trade means that countries that don't share the same health, safety, or environmental standards, will challenge our regs as a trade barrier...then a tribunal in Geneva will make a ruling that WTO signatories must follow. Free trade means that we will sell to the lowest bidder, no matter what lowers the costs. Fair trade, hopefully will mean that citizens everywhere share similar protections, working conditions, and opportunities. Before I get of my pulpit, Benjamin, I doubt very seriously that the environmentalists were the people responsible for the litter left in Seattle, can't say I'm as confident about some of the other protesters. I think that was nothing more than a cheap shot, while you're in that church, think about all kinds of dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Mike Billo
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:34 AM

Oh My God Benjamin!! You don't mean to say that a condo owner was inconvenienced so that child slave labor might be denounced. Oh,the humanity. What do we pay taxes for?

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Ringer
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 12:06 PM

So that's a "Yes", then, is it, kat?

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: kendall
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 12:54 PM

Its the old "Pull up the ladder..I'm aboard" thing. It pisses me off no end to go to a store like L,L.Bean, the standard of quality for so many years, and find clothing made in China, Malasia, India, when we know these things are made in sweatshops, by slave labor. And, are they cheaper?? Hell no..they are just as expensive as those that were made in the USA. So, instead of the money going to a union worker trying to raise kids and pay for a mortgage, the huge profits now go to these companies to fatten their bottom line. Calvin Coolidge (Republican) said "The business of America, is business." Well, the American worker sure as hell is getting the business.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Benjamin
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 01:11 PM

Hey, you wanted the insiders look, you got it! The truth is that the people who are really aimed at the ending slave labor etc. are almost a minority. Some guy flew in from Europe appearently to lead an anti meat protest which trashed a McDonalds while it was running. I myself don't like McDonalds, but they have created an anything goes enviroment. I didn't say the enviromental protesters were ones who dropped the litter (though I'm sure they did their share) I said they created the enviroment which others felt that trashing the city was okay. As for oil spills, I agree that if you continue to drive a car, your contributing. They aren't going to stop that! Just creat more air polution then there needed to be! Mike Billo, you have oviously never breathed in tear gas. Sure there is a bigger picture here. And maybe you can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs. Man though, you think differently when that "egg" is your home. Why don't we have somebody respond now who has had> a group of nomads come in, trash their city ad force the mayor, governer, etc. to call a state of emergency! I have a hunch that this hasn't happened to anyone in between my two posts!

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 01:55 PM

My favorite parapharase of Coolidge's dictum goes as follows:

The business of government is government, the business of business is business.
The government of government is business, and the government of business is none of our business.

T.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 02:16 PM

Benjamin, Assume any thing you want. You don't seem to care how many things you are wrong about. Your equation of an oil leak from an individual car obviously translates to the right of industry in third world countries to dump their waste into the ditch running through their workers cities? And the Nomads, don't have any rights to free speech because they are not home? Glad I don't live in your world, It's chronically undemocratic, with no apparent hope for survival.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 02:30 PM

Benjamin. I am very sorry to hear of your friends who had such an unfortunate experience. That was not the intention of the people who organized the protests or of most of those who attended them. As far as I know no protesters threw tear gas, that was the action of the police. You say that the protesters "created the climate" in which vandalism seemed appropriate to a few individuals; most of the protesters were not trying to create a climate of hooliganism they were trying to make sure that their voices were heard as loudly and clearly and possible. That some people misinterpreted this as a license for vandalism is not the fault of the protesters. The misinterpretation seems general as innocent bystanders are blaming peaceful protesters not hooligans or police; this is a sad commentary on the society in which we live. The protesters were not in Seattle on whim they followed the WTO there. The WTO has not listened to the legitimate concerns of the people who are affected by their decisions. Thus creating a high level of anxiety and frustration for these people. Why are you not blaming them for "creating a climate" where violence is acceptable? I would suggest that when you next enter a church you use the intellect that God gave to reflect on the dangers of having Mammon run rampant over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 02:48 PM

there are meangful, legitimate protests, and then there is the 'lunatic fringe', doing what my Mom used to call "cutting off your nose to spite your face"!

the WTO NEEDS to be made aware of real concerns, but honest buisness people in Seattle do NOT need their windows broken to make a point to some corporate exective half a world away....

Bill D...(who HAS breathed tear gas, and been stopped by southern policemen on dark raods ..and walked picket lines, and stood on RT & VT soap boxes decrying the population/environmental crisis)

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 03:16 PM

Bald Eagle, do you have a better suggestion for someone living in a rural area, such as Wyoming, who is limited, somewhat, in what they can do physically, i.e. no hitching up ponies, riding in all kinds of weather, riding a bike, or walking long distances?

I practise conservation as much as possible and support orgs. that work for better solutions. (When I lived in an area which had public transport, I USED IT, at one point I didn't even have a car.) Until then, yes, I am guilty of driving a car as my only safe means of getting anywhere outside my home.

How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 03:21 PM

As someone who has close colleagues on the ground (and a main organizer of the environmental protest as one of my dearest friends), I have avoided contributing to this, but I hope that reggie is O.K., 24 hours further along. I love the picture of him sawing away in the midst of it all. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM

Some Seattle Times articles and editorials that might be of interest can be found here, here, and here.

T.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Fred
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 05:11 PM

Please don't allow the deliberate misdeeds of a few to cloud the genuine issues raised by responsible protestors in the streets. And don't permit middle-aged complacency to dilute "folkie values" into an I-got-mine attitude. We have seen the havoc of unregulated business -- the governing of business is as necessary as the governing of people. Our prosperity must not come from the enslavement of others or the destruction of our future.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 05:32 PM

I've been reading gripping e-mail accounts from street level Seattle the past two days, on a listserv I get which has a lot of Seattle types.

Reggie, that's a great story. Maybe you should try a different repertoire, though, how about:

"Sawlent Green"

"Tracks of My Tears"

"Bowin in the wind"

sorry...The level of police security there now, I'd be extremely hesitant to carry a saw , let alone a gun case.

Oil spills are preventable, but they are not caused by Kat driving a car. The suggestion that one's personal usage of petroleum products (yeccch) is cause for complacency is, frankly, stupid. Oil spills mainly involve ships hitting rocks or reefs and breaking up--when taking ill-advised shortcuts as in the Exxon Valdez, or because mechanical problems cause them to lose power and/or steering, and far too many aging tankers are of the single-hull design which does not take that kind of punishment. I wouldn't mind paying more for gas if the extra pennies went to mandatory double-hulls and other extra safety factors. Just as when I see a tanker truck on the highway, I want it to be the best-maintained, sturdiest rig on the road--it's the same road I'm using.

Bill C.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: emily rain
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 05:51 PM

i have to disagree with the statement that the peaceful protesters created the climate which led to the current chaos.

many friends of mine were in the midst of the barricades all day tuesday, and the stories they tell about the day are beautiful and inspiring. noam tells of negotiating with the police (who were becoming increasingly nervous as violence broke out elsewhere), talking them out of using gas and spray on his own group, who were acting without violence. he was making connections with these men, who are union workers after all. some of the policemen wept. jen tells of refusing again and again to let delegates pass, and getting a cheerful response: "oh well; it was worth a try!" they talked and joked and exchanged experiences, and a good number of the delegates were supportive of her cause.

chaos is born of chaos; the ones who chose to use violence are the only ones responsible for their actions. in fact, it's a shame the national guard was not called in earlier. several angry demonstrators tackled the hooligans and brought them to the police, demanding that they arrest them. the police simply had too much on their hands, and couldn't spare the manpower. instead the gangs roamed free, and the largely non-violent crowd was gassed and shot and subdued. what irony.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: emily rain
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 05:56 PM

i, on the other hand, stayed as far away from the nastiness as possible. some friends and i participated in the labor/people's march, topless and bad-ass with the lesbian avengers. i'm tellin' you, what we did inspired something far, far removed from violence and rioting... everyone who saw us had a BIG smile on their faces. : )

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: reggie miles
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 06:00 PM

Peter T. and friends, Thanks for your concern and yes I'm alright. Lack of sleep being my only real loss. Many others have given up much more to this cause. I'm feeling a little sad after reading some of the comments that this thread has polarized some of us here. That was not my intention.

As I walked out into the sea of demonstrators from where I had parked in the Market my heart began to beat faster. I remember feeling a bit like a surge of adrenalin was heightening my senses. I wanted to get to the front lines of the demonstration to see first hand exactly what was taking place. The numbers of participants began to swell. For several blocks in every direction one could see people gathering drawn as I was to wittness this event. The vast majority of these were just like me there to only lend support by our presence. Eager to view and observe and be apart of this most unusual event. Many carried recording devices, still and video cameras, from news crews with much more impressive gear and huge fuzzy microphones on poles down to the disposable cardboard instamatics. Many were willing to brave the abusive overreactionary tactics of the authorities just to capture it on film so we could all bear witness to our system of freedom at work. We all stood about or wandered here and there to see for ourselves what was transpiring. There was no end to the various approaches to or participation in the event. At one intersection a group of demonstrators had chained themselves the a platform which was weighted with cement. This later became a makeshift stage for performers. I watched a dance troop perform while on lookers sang Amazing Grace quietly. Many streets were blocked by people locking arms together and standing quietly. Nowhere did I see any of the participants of the demonstrations brandishing weapons of any kind. Neither were any of the people wearing protective clothing like body armor in antipation of any sort of serious confrontation with the authorities. The only piece of protective gear that was evident among some of the protestors and demonstrators were gas masks. The demonstrators did not carry offensive weapons (weapons like knives or guns or concussion genades or tear gas or pepper spray or armored personnel carriers etc.) to engage in any sort battle with authorities only cameras to record the violence perpetrated on them by the police. The people occupying intersections were the first targets of the authorities. Without warning they fired at those gathered there. Some fled while others stood their ground. I'm afraid and a bit ashamed to admit I was among the former group who fled from the gas canisters, concussion grenades, rubber bullets, pepper spray and other, though not lethal, nevertheless very painful methods used against those peacefully ocupying the streets there last Tuesday.

I've got to get ready for my gig tonight more of this later. Thanks again for the concerns you've all posted here.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Benjamin
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 06:00 PM

To report the good among the bad now, There have been some protesters doing nothing all day except washing graffiti and picking up the trash for the cans which were knocked over. Though they were probably mostly locals who did that, I am happy to see people saying with action rather than just words alone that they did not intend for that.

I for one believe jobs should be spread all over the world, but not sweat shops paying 10 cents hour. The WTO is allowing horible things to happen and really should be stopped. But when you weigh the cause and the affect here, I doubt it will make a huge difference. I will apologize to everyone if this does end sweat shop labor in 3rd world countries.

Al, I think you're taking my words to the extreme here. "with no hope for survival" I didn't say anything like that. So this aint like the LA riots or the night Harlem burnt down, but it Doesn't have to be like this! There has to be a better way then all this!

To close, I'm not saying "we have no hope, lets all give in." I'm trying to say that I'm sure there is a better way than this! As Tom Goodkind and the Washington Squares said "It takes courage, it takes care. It's time to let out a loving to share! It's time to fight a good fight! We won't get rich but you know that's all right! And we won't stop till freedom rings... All over the world!"

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Mike Billo
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 06:44 PM

Benjamin; I was tear gassed and arrested during the Free Speech movement in Berkely in'67. I was tear gassed and arrested at the Viet Nam Resistance Day at the Army induction center in Oakland in'69. That same year I was tear gassed, arrested and had three ribs broken marching with Cesar Chavez. So it's been 30 years since my last tear gassing, but I remember them well enough to recall that they were fairly unpleasant experiences. I also remeber that I was struggling for a higher purpose than my personal comfort or discomfort.

I very seriously doubt that an apology, and a "Gee, I should know something about people before I draw conclusions about them" will be forthcoming. But maybe by saying that, I've drawn a conclusion about you. How about it kid? Think there might be something going on that you haven't figured out yet?

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 06:45 PM

Thanks, Reggie, good to know you are alright and nothing to be ashamed of by protecting yourself by getting out of the way.

Thank you, BillC.

Emily! Good points! Wish I'd been there to march with your group! Sounds fantastic, you go gyrl!

This gives a whole new meaning to the twisted bumper sticker, "Give peas a chance.":-)

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Mike Billo
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 06:47 PM

Reggie; Our mutual friend Tom Scribener is looking down at you right now, and is happy with what he sees.

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 08:39 PM

"Several angry demonstrators tackled the hooligans and brought them to the police, demanding that they arrest them. the police simply had too much on their hands, and couldn't spare the manpower. instead the gangs roamed free, and the largely non-violent crowd was gassed and shot and subdued." (emily rain a little ways up the thread.

"Couldn't spare the manpower"...It's a few years since I was last in a police riot (Derry, London), but that sounds familiar enough. Yes, there have always been a few movement crazies about, but when someone next to you starts shouting "Kill the Pigs", and throwing things, it's safest to bet they've been put there by someone to do just that, and that someone isn't on the side of the people in the streets. And they aren't the ones that get busted.

But it's great to be able to talk once again about some kind of Movement, and to see at least some hope America has got through a bad bad time.

The last few years it's been a constant succession of waking up to find this tired old century has pulled yet another surprise out from its sleeve. Mostly bad ones, but not all. And for me, a good one this time.

(And that doesn't mean I don't regret the bad things happening to people who just get caught up in this kind of event, like Benjamin was talking about. In the same way, I'm sure the people who think the WTO and all that stuff is really worth it really do sometimes regret that the price for their, and our "prosperity" is child slave labour, and poor people being wiped out, and the planet being devastated. But what people who back the protest have to be sorry about is a lot less than what the fans of the WTO have to be sorry about.)

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: thosp
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 12:32 AM

well where to start
(1)asking if you drive a car, in this case is like askink if you still beat your wife/husband -- lets' get real -- if you want to discuss --discuss -- if you want to play word games -have fun -- we are stuck in a situation where many people do not have a choice -- they have to drive - in order to survive -- and the alternative is not going bACK TO HORSE CArt --but to get the oil companies(and others)to stop surpressing cleaner technolagies --so they can make the extra billions--
(2)now --are some here advocating the idea --that protests are wrong-or should not be allowed? if that were the case -we wouldn't have unions --- we would still have black and white only water fountains and the things that went with them --we might possibly still be in Viet Nam --might have no enviormental laws at all etc.
(3)regarding the demonstrations of the 50's and 60's - all that i know of or was involved in were planed to be non-violent -- just a couple of things about that --in some cases violence was started by onlookers who disagreed with the protesters (i experienced this personally a few times)in some cases the violence was started by the police ( i experienced this once -by i was beaten badly and arrested -finger printed and photographed-the photo didn't do any good my face was beaten into unrecognizability)
(4)years later -because of the freedom of information act -- it came out that the FBI had undercover agents snitches actually start trouble to discredit the protestes(does anyone smell a rat in seattle?) this had been standard practice since the days of union organizing and probably since recorded history --
in closing i have been involved in exercising my constitutional RIGHT since the 50's and i have NEVER and no one i knew or saw in these demonstration ever started and violence --at the most some defended themselves from attack --(from nightsticks-bottles-bats-2x4's etc.0
so what shall we do? nothing? i for one am overjoyed to see so many people caring!

peace (Y) thosp

please fogive the spelling

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: Alphafem
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 12:35 AM

How I love it when people who want to promote tolerance and open-mindedness and freedom instantly come down hard on someone who's not in their camp.

The fact of the matter is, there are always multiple sides to every issue, and it's very rare when one is all good and another is all bad.

There were opposing, environmental groups that went through the paperwork to get included as -part- of the WTO activities. Sometimes, when dealing with a professional organization, it helps to rise to the professional level yourself, rather than use intimidation look-at-me-I'm-antiestablishment! tactics. The people I feel most sorry for are the legitimately peaceful and knowledgeble protesters who have now had all their hard work ruined by the shameful, violent, and destructive actions of a few. There -were- peaceful protestors putting themselves up as a human shield between the riot cops and the rioting protestors, to try to keep either side from getting hurt. -Those- are the people who I feel deserve my respect and lauding, not the people who were there to be part of the 'scene' because it was 'cool.' I full believe there were many people standing around DT after curfew who didn't know/care what the policies of the WTO were that they were protesting about.

Also, this whole cops-are-evil mentality makes me sick. All people who are for 'good causes' are saints, but the people who (except for a rotten few) regularly put their lives at risk to protect others are evil. Disgusting.

In fact, I've not heard anybody but -one- person here make anything more than a crudely general statement about what it is that they feel is so bad about the WTO (other than someone mentioning child labor. It would be more correct to state that they are frustrated that the WTO does not impose sanctions against child labor for its members--the WTO itself has no jurisdiction as to which countries tacitly or outright allow child labor. In fact, it may shock you to know that the US consents to child labor in agricultural venues, and ignores it in many other places in the US)

Personally, I think the anger you've seen is directed at the people who don't know what they're against other than the nebulous boogeyman known as the 'establishment', and the troublemakers who didn't care about the WTO at all. Nothing, -absolutely nothing- excuses mob riots, violence, or destruction of property. You don't want the police to bash your skull in for the slightest infraction do you? You want them to respect your civil liberties? Then respect your fellow citizens like you'd like to be respected, and don't destroy property or vandalize, or create a health hazard of broken glass and smoke from burning fires at intersections. To do less makes you a big, huge, neon-glowing hypocrite. So you have a right to tie up traffic made up of working people who are excercising their right to -not protest- something they don't feel compelled to. Oh, that's right, if they're not with you, then they MUST support slave labor and prison labor and child labor and the nuking of the environment. Do you have to be boorish and selfish, in order to protest?

Am I a fan of the WTO? Hell no. But I do things other than protest and get arrested. I'll bet I'm more educated about the policies and procedures of the WTO than a general majority of the people who were blocking the streets and burning newspaper vending machines are. Just because I think the violent and overly-disruptive activities of the protesters were a violation of the citizens of Seattle's 'rights' doesn't mean I -must- be a fan of the WTO or a Rushite or a gun-toting-evil-NRA-badgrrl-capitalist. I live here, and our 'guests' endangered a lot of people's lives and livelihood. And trust me, their point was lost in the destruction.

If you really want to be doing something to influence the WTO, use your money and resources to help fund NGOs and other groups that work in those countries and with those goverments, and don't buy the products of the major corporations that are part of it. Whoops, I guess that might require a little more work than borrowing a sign and hooting at people in the streets. :P Never mind.

Grumpy, fed up, and not-very-amused, AF

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: thosp
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 12:38 AM

also i wish i were more coherent as a writer -- but if i were as good at it as many of you are -- i wouldn't admire your ability so much --
both those of you that i agree with and those of you that i don't--

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 01:28 AM

My son works in Seattle right next to the Convention Center, so he's been going through a nightmare every day to get to and from work. He has called me every night to report "from the front," and has remarked several times on how restrained the police officers seemed to be. He is a member of a union shop, so he's sensitive to labor issues, and he said he'd talked iwth the police officers around the building where he works and they seemed pretty much in agreement with a lot of what the protestors were standing up for.

However, he said a bunch of 'teeny-bopper hooligans' had come in and just gone on a rampage, as though it were 'an out of control frat party on spring break,' and he absolutely didn't respect that. But he said most people he's talked to can make that distinction and believe it wasn't the political people who were raising such hell -- in fact, some of the "crowd control" came about because the political people put a stop to some of the rampage their fellows in the street were doing.

But ... I think much of the effectiveness of this week's events will hinge on how the labor activists seize on this public awareness to educate people about the labor practices they want to see eradicated. Most people really don't have a clue what the protest is about, but if those who are objecting to WTO practices, or to those of some of the WTO members, could step into the gap now and say, "This is what is happening that we disagree with..." then maybe something very positive could come out of it.

I certainly don't think we all need to be isolatonists, but I also don't want to think that some child in Pakistan sacrificed his or her childhood to make the latest chotchke I've bought, or that some political patriot in China has been laboring to make that new piece of carryon luggage I purchased. It seems we ought to be able to have free trade AND protections for labor. Call me an idealist ...

WW

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: thosp
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 01:53 AM

Here are 10 reasons why:

The WTO prioritizes trade and commercial considerations over all other values. WTO rules generally require domestic laws, rules and regulations designed to further worker, consumer, environmental, health, safety, human rights, animal protection, or other non-commercial interests to be undertaken in the "least trade-restrictive" fashion possible -- almost never is trade subordinated to these noncommercial concerns.

The WTO undermines democracy. Its rules drastically shrink the choices available to democratically controlled governments, with violations potentially punished with harsh penalties. The WTO actually touts this overriding of domestic decisions about how economies should be organized and corporations controlled. "Under WTO rules, once a commitment has been made to liberalize a sector of trade, it is difficult to reverse," the WTO says in a paper on the benefits of the organization which is published on its web site. "Quite often, governments use the WTO as a welcome external constraint on their policies: 'we can't do this because it would violate the WTO agreements.'"

The WTO does not just regulate, it actively promotes, global trade. Its rules are biased to facilitate global commerce at the expense of efforts to promote local economic development and policies that move communities, countries and regions in the direction of greater self-reliance.

The WTO hurts the Third World. WTO rules force Third World countries to open their markets to rich country multinationals, and abandon efforts to protect infant domestic industries. In agriculture, the opening to foreign imports, soon to be imposed on developing countries, will catalyze a massive social dislocation of many millions of rural people.

The WTO eviscerates the Precautionary Principle. WTO rules generally block countries from acting in response to potential risk -- requiring a probability before governments can move to resolve harms to human health or the environment.

The WTO squashes diversity. WTO rules establish international health, environmental and other standards as a global ceiling through a process of "harmonization;" countries or even states and cities can only exceed them by overcoming high hurdles.

The WTO operates in secrecy. Its tribunals rule on the "legality" of nations' laws, but carry out their work behind closed doors.

The WTO limits governments' ability to use their purchasing dollar for human rights, environmental, worker rights and other non-commercial purposes. In general, WTO rules state that governments can make purchases based only on quality and cost considerations.

The WTO disallows bans on imports of goods made with child labor. In general, WTO rules do not allow countries to treat products differently based on how they were produced -- irrespective of whether made with brutalized child labor, with workers exposed to toxics or with no regard for species protection.

The WTO legitimizes life patents. WTO rules permit and in some cases require patents or similar exclusive protections for life forms. Some of these problems, such as the WTO's penchant for secrecy, could potentially be fixed, but the core problems -- prioritization of commercial over other values, the constraints on democratic decision-making and the bias against local economies -- cannot, for they are inherent in the WTO itself.

Because of these unfixable problems, the World Trade Organization should be shut down, sooner rather than later.

That doesn't mean interim steps shouldn't be taken. It does mean that beneficial reforms will focus not on adding new areas of competence to the WTO or enhancing its authority, even if the new areas appear desirable (such as labor rights or competition). Instead, the reforms to pursue are those that reduce or limit the WTO's power -- for example, by denying it the authority to invalidate laws passed pursuant to international environmental agreements, limiting application of WTO agricultural rules in the Third World, or eliminating certain subject matters (such as essential medicines or life forms) from coverage under the WTO's intellectual property agreement.

These measures are necessary and desirable in their own right, and they would help generate momentum to close down the WTO.

Russell Mokhiber is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Corporate Crime Reporter. Robert Weissman is editor of the Washington, D.C.-based Multinational Monitor. They are co-authors of "Corporate Predators: The Hunt for MegaProfits and the Attack on Democracy" (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1999).

E-mail the Editors | Other articles by Mokhiber and Weissman

Subject: RE: BS: WTO
From: thosp
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 02:09 AM

Human rights must be central component of multilateral investment rules There is a worrying absence of any meaningful discussion on human rights safeguards at the World Trade Organization's negotiations in Seattle, Amnesty International said today.

"No agreement on further investment liberalisation -- such as the Multilateral Agreement on Investment or its successors -- should be formalised until a comprehensive analysis of its impact on human rights protection has been carried out," the human rights organization said. "In the absence of such analysis, any negotiations are premature"

"Multinational investors -- wherever they choose to operate -- have a responsibility to protect human rights," the organization added. "This includes protecting the human rights of their own employees and the rights of the members of the communities where they have economic interests."

The human rights organization takes no position on further trade liberalisation or the creation of an international framework and set of regulations to govern foreign investments. However, it does believe that any such negotiations should include a central component concerned with the worldwide protection of human rights.

Background Amnesty International is concerned that the ongoing global negotiations aimed at liberalizing trade and investment rules -- including the now discontinued draft Multilateral Agreement on Investment -- may conflict with the obligations of states to enforce crucial provisions of international treaties such as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and the Conventions of the International Labour Organization.

Source: Amnesty International, International Secretariat, 1 Easton Street, WC1X 8DJ, London,