BS: election uk

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 11:46 AM

I see that our resident 'champions of the people' have not only deleted threads, they've deleted ANY posts that don't tow the 'party line'.....and then want us to believe that their ideological rants are for equality!!!
What are you trying to do?....mess with the survival of Mudcat, and the revenue that all the participants bring, by posting???....just because your liberal posture iis being found out to be a fraud????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 11:43 AM

How many more of you can get on that pin head?.....:0)


I used to think this forum was full of intelligent people ....there is probably more sensible debate on Facebook.

Dave our engagement on Mudcat is at an end, you are and have always been, the most disingenuous person that I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 11:33 AM

To what are you alluring there, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 11:04 AM

I didn't think you could have immigration from somewhere. I thought that was emigration? Or are we supposed to infer what is being implied?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Musket
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 11:00 AM

Just noticed where Keith said "There is unregulated immigration from EU"

Remember Dimbleby pulling up Nigel Farage for saying that exact untrue phrase on Question Time recently?

It begs the question, from EU to where?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 10:42 AM

Bridge being rude and obnoxious as ever, nothing changes!

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 09:21 AM

Thanks, Doug. It really is appreciated when someone can see the point I was making.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 09:19 AM

From the horses mouth, Doug.

rather than waffling on about minority "rights"

Yes, Dave. It does tend to add weight to your argument, I must admit.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 08:52 AM

Bozo, why do you not bother to tell the truth about Ruskin House?

"Ruskin House, situated in its own grounds on Coombe Road, Croydon, South London, has been an important centre of Britain's progressive movements for a century. It is the headquarters of Croydon's Communist, Labour, Trade Union and Co-operative movements and is itself a co-operative with shareholders from organisations across the four movements."

So it is not, as you imply, a case of the Labour Party urging people to vote communist.

It seems that you don't know your arse from the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 08:45 AM

It amazes me that there is a "Vote Communist" poster displayed outside the hideous labour headquarters in Croydon - seems to me that they don't know their arse from their elbow!

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 08:11 AM

Going back up the thread to respond to Shimrod's post, the main reason there are so many Lib Dem placards on the local council estate boils down to one man - the very popular ex-councillor of the ward, Norman Lewis (the feller who looks like a Status Quo roadie) whose personal standing locally is such that he woud still havehis supporters even if he stood for the natural law party.

I won't pretend to look into the minds of middle class Labour voters in Chorlton, but I think his excellent article by Owen Jones sums up the difference between a vote for Labour and a vote for the Tories - the two parties are far closer than I'm comfortable with, but the differences are enough to make a vote for them worthwhile.

Meanwhile, I'll not be voting for our sitting MP, John Leech. He got voted into a historically Labour ward on the back of anti-Iraq War sentiment, and went on to either vote with the Tories or mysteriously absent himself at voting times. I'd vote Green if I was following my heart, but I suspect that by doing so I would be giving away my vote to the Lib Dems and potentially by extension to the Tories.

I find it sad that the Labour party has accepted the logic of the Tory agenda and joined them in demonising the SNP. Though I also suspect they don't want to form any kind of alliance with a party that will try to pull them to the left, more's the pity.

Parliamentary democracy. What a kerfuffle.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 08:03 AM

There is unregulated immigration from EU.

Yes there is. That is not what ake said. It was only a few minutes ago but maybe a reminder would help.

Unregulated immigration from low wage economies to high wage economies is always wrong and ultimately harmful to both countries.

No mention of free movement of labour in the EU. It is the pure concept of someone encouraging unregulated immigration that sets people off on the 'let's blame the Polish fruit pickers' track. It is the language and idea of blaming the easy target that is wrong.

BTW - free movement of people within the EU works both ways. Have either of you seen the actual figures on how many Britons are living in Europe compared to EU nationals living here? Shall I give you a clue as to what those figure will be like or leave it up to you to assume the worst?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:48 AM

Free movement is unregulated.
Free movement immigration is unregulated immigration.
There is unregulated immigration from EU.

Steve, the report Musket quoted conceded that immigration has depressed the wages of the lowest paid.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:42 AM

The villains are in Brussels and Westminster both parties encouraged unregulated immigration

Was it really only 10 minutes ago I pointed out that unregulated immigration and free movement of labour within the EU were not the same thing? As to anyone encouraging anything, I thought they were just applying the laws of the land?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:27 AM

The law of this country is that you cannot pay immigrants less than native Brits. We have a legal minimum wage. If you know of cases where this law is being broken, then it's unscrupulous employers you should be blaming, not immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:21 AM

"
The whole idea of blaming minorities for your own failures and the sheep mentality of those who fall for it just remind us that Germany in the '20s and '30s wasn't that hard to believe it could ever happen..... "

I don't think anyone is blaming the immigrants for wishing to make themselves and their families better off, that is the purpose of economic migration. The villains are in Brussels and Westminster both parties encouraged unregulated immigration "to make us competitive in the global economy".....pity they forgot about the crumbling infrastructure and our own workless young people.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:19 AM

We have no control over the numbers of immigrants coming here from Eastern Europe

Not what you said, ake. Your exact phrase was

Unregulated immigration from low wage economies to high wage economies is always wrong and ultimately harmful to both countries.

Unregulated immigration is a myth. Free movement of labour within the EU is not unregulated immigration. You did exactly what the UN commissioner is railing against and then tried to change it. Unfortunately for you your previous posts are there for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:14 AM

Synonyms of the verb "imply" must also be verbs. None of yours are. To infer means to deduce. Your references do not reflect that. I should stick to historical revisionism if I were you.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:13 AM

Dave, look up Free movement of Labour in the EU.

We have no control over the numbers of immigrants coming here from Eastern Europe......I did not say that the immigration was illegal.

Ever wonder why there is not a massive shift of unskilled and semiskilled workers to Poland or Rumania from the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Musket
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:10 AM

Tsk. They don't use "fewer" either eh Bridge? Whilst ever linguistic pedantry top trumps issues, there will always be an England. Your post, in a strange way, was the most heartening one I have read thus far.

Mind you, that you know what they meant lowers the need to criticise? Just a thought.

Funny how my mentioning that Churchill coined the phrase "United States of Europe" has led to Terribulus saying I was wrong, but it was an accurate statement I made.. Another wannabe politician. I didn't qualify it any further so his straw man seems to be growing almost as fast as Keith's conversion from his earlier stances on immigration, racial stereotypes and presumably military fiction.

No. Too far Musket me old lad. Don't be silly....

Regarding the Scotland and immigration; I did mention that one of the Muskets is in India at present did I? Courtesy of the Scottish government, trying to do something about the 10% of all hospital consultant posts being unfilled. I was at a Royal Medical Society bash in Edinburgh recently, (Mrs Musket is the member, I just like the cuisine at Castle Terrace) and the medical school at Edinburgh University? Only 4% of the intake were from Scottish addresses. Apparently, that's higher than some down here. Makes you think...

Notwithstanding that immigrants have, according to ONS and grudgingly confirmed by the treasury contributed to the coffers more than dipped in for a sub, notwithstanding that the tough immigration rules in place are so draconian, families are being split up in harrowing circumstances, notwithstanding that foreign students on visas make universities just about financially viable...

The whole idea of blaming minorities for your own failures and the sheep mentality of those who fall for it just remind us that Germany in the '20s and '30s wasn't that hard to believe it could ever happen.....

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 07:05 AM

In general usage terms as opposed to "lawyer-ese"

"imply" synonyms: implicit, indirect, hinted, suggested, insinuated, deducible, inferred, understood; oblique, unspoken, unexpressed, undeclared, unstated, unsaid, tacit, unacknowledged, not spelt out, silent, taken for granted, taken as read, assumed

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 06:57 AM

What are you alluding, Richard? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 06:53 AM

"Any real socialist would argue that these people work at home to help their own people"
No real socialist would ever make such a discriminatory statement - socialism is International - the nature of the beast unless you happen to be a 'National Socialist', which your argument suggests you are - different best altogether and nothing to do with equality of opportunity for all, as it's horrendous track-rcord shows.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 06:45 AM

I wish people would remember and apply the difference between "infer" and "imply".

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 06:41 AM

Do let me help you, Billyboy. The extract you quoted does not illustrate the point you were trying to make. That's what I meant. In fact, you need to go back to a speech made in the early 30s in which he said that we could be with Europe but not of it. As you advise googling for others, maybe take your own advice on this occasion, and quote the most appropriate thing to illustrate your point next time. By the way, can you demonstrate that the trauma of the war left his view unchanged?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 06:30 AM

100 not out, sorry leadfingers

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 06:12 AM

it is imperative that migration policy decisions that affect people's lives and fundamental human rights should be made on the basis of fact -- not fiction

There is no unregulated immigration. Every immigrant into this country has to go through the legal channels or risk being found as an illegal immigrant. There are stringent checks on every applicant. So much so that people do risk entering illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:58 AM

Unregulated immigration from low wage economies to high wage economies is always wrong and ultimately harmful to both countries.

Nothing to do with bigotry racism or xenophobia.

Any real socialist would argue that these people work at home to help their own people raise living standards, treat the sick, run public services.

Aren't we selfish?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:56 AM

Hmmm - Link maker seems to have run out of characters :-(

C&P it yourself

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/katie-hopkins-migrant-cockroaches-column-resembles-progenocide-propaganda-says-the-un-10201959.html

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:48 AM

By wonderful coincidence the UN have made a statement about the British press reportage on immigration. The final paragraph sums it up so well -

The High Commissioner noted that "while migration and refugee issues are completely valid topics for public debate, it is imperative that migration policy decisions that affect people's lives and fundamental human rights should be made on the basis of fact -- not fiction, exaggeration or blatant xenophobia. History has shown us time and again the dangers of demonizing foreigners and minorities, and it is extraordinary and deeply shameful to see these types of tactics being used in a variety of countries, simply because racism and xenophobia are so easy to arouse in order to win votes or sell newspapers."

To see the whole article click here.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:34 AM

let alone your "straight from the UKIP" comments on immigration pull you a titsy bit further right, don't you think?

No, because those views I have expressed on immigration are also endorsed by Labour and Lib Dems.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:33 AM

" I don't see where he said we couldn't be in two groupings. "

Then I would suggest Mr. Shaw that you read the extract from the speech again or better still stir yourself and Google the text of the entire speech and read the whole thing.

In the speech he refers to NATO, he refers to Britain and its Commonwealth and he refers to his envisaged union of European countries. At no time at all in the speech does he ever infer that Britain would be part of the latter - clear enough for you?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:31 AM

I'm not even going to try and go through everything that is wrong with that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:30 AM

Musket,
claiming to support UKIP in a thread,

Made up shit.
Another lie Musket.

Why not just challenge what I actually, really do say?
Perhaps because there is nothing there for you to attack, so you have to make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:26 AM

" Like those who believe that immigration is a major cause of our economic crisis. Ring any bells?"

No!....the policy(unregulated immigration from Eastern Europe), was thought up as an antidote to the coming economic crisis....It did not work and is now causing untold damage to an infrastructure which we cannot afford to strengthen.

A sticking plaster on a mortal wound.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:10 AM

From the horses mouth, Doug.

rather than waffling on about minority "rights"

For what it is worth, ake, I agree about most politicians but what astounds me the most is how people keep falling for it. Like those who believe that immigration is a major cause of our economic crisis. Ring any bells?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 05:05 AM

Sorry Richard, that was in response to Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 04:54 AM

Silly boy, don't you know that MOST of what politicians say is to "gain votes". Most are unscrupulous rogues, as can be seen from the expenses scandal and the about turn by all "liberal" parties on immigration.   After demonising Mr Farage and his party for bringing it into public debate in the first place.

The SNP are as guilty of "playing politics" as any of the rest.....a tactic which could cost them dear in the longer term.
They should be honest about the huge problems ahead if we are to become a strong independent nation, rather than waffling on about minority "rights".

Still, they will get my vote, and hopefully independence....then we can really get down to business.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 04:52 AM

Oddly I was talking to an African princess, over the weekend. She now lives in the UK and life has not been good to her recently. She made it very clear that since she was royal she would be voting for the party of the ruling class - ie the conservatives. I could not get it into her skull that not only was she not any part of the ruling classes in the UK but also the people who were were those who had done the most to remove the powers of the traditional rulers in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 04:31 AM

No, not really, Doug. You could ask ake the same question as he seems to hope that everyone has forgotten his stance on gay rights such as gay people should be put on a register and not allowed to be married. He seems to ignore the fact that he has said that the SNP are only espousing equality to gain votes. Maybe he is right, Maybe people, such as yourself, do have selective memory loss?

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Musket
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 04:29 AM

I make things personal!

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Morning Keith!

This from the man who stalks me round the threads and even printed the words to a song in this thread just to resurrect some nonsense regarding what we meant when we wrote the bugger. Yeah, really personal. You call Musket a liar when you should say liars, as you won't even accept our position on Mudcat, so don't get too pissed off when none of the Musket log ins take you seriously. Although you can take some pride in being one of the reasons we share in the first place.

Ok, so your pendulum is where you think it is, although your glorification of military aggression coupled with your less savoury comments over men from Pakistani origin, let alone your "straight from the UKIP" comments on immigration pull you a titsy bit further right, don't you think?

That's before we get onto claiming to support UKIP in a thread, continual attempts to give credence to Akenaton's homophobic posts and strange method of trying to see if someone got their view from a website and calling them liars when you can't find it. Independent thought process seems to be beyond you...

Nice to see you using the past tense when you mention voting Labour. UKIP got into gear about the same time you stopped voting Labour I see..

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Musket
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 04:10 AM

Whilst Doug has the ability to ignore what has been said and published on this thread, hoping that some will believe his sloppy contribution.

If Dave does run for office, I hope he isn't standing against you Doug. You are a far better politician if you don't mind me saying so. Your blinkered ignoring of bigotry is becoming a less favourable trait in politicians though. If you defend the absurd uttering of someone who says the whole constitution of a party is just lies for media to swallow and in fact, a liberal left leaning party that takes the credit for championing equality legislation really believes the same as him, make sure you aren't defending his more unsavoury views eh? We already have one right wing nutter defending his personality disorder without others weighing in.

Terribulus is on form I see. The tablets must be working.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 04:00 AM

Musket,
Your support of right wing politics is on record and noted,

I do not support right wing politics and never have.
I voted Labour in the Blair days, just like you.
Centre Right, the majority position.
You have no case against me so you have to lie.

You always make these things personal.
You are incapable of reasoned debate.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 03:48 AM

Without taking sides in any argument, I note the following exchange:

AKE:
I shall vote SNP, though I believe many of their espoused policies are wrong and involve playing politics, simply to gain the votes of those with no understanding of reality.

DtG:
Does anyone really believe that this statement was about anything but the SNP 'espoused policies' about equality for all regardelss of sexuality?
-
-
-
-
-
DtG:
It's quite simple. Ask ake which espoused policies he was talking about.

AKE:
The main SNP policy that I object to, is of course membership of the EU. I also object to an independent Scotland being a member of NATO.

DtG:
…… If ake refers to 'espoused policies' I have no reason to assume he is referring to anything but GLBT rights.


Dave, have you thought of standing for Parliament? You seem to have a natural ability to see what you want to see and to pay no attention to what others say.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 03:34 AM

Hmm. I don't see where he said we couldn't be in two groupings. Maybe you're a post mortem mind-reader.

Agreed, Richard. Bar voting for actual fascists, my top voting priority is to make sure that the Tories do not get another five years. That's one thing I can agree with Nicola about.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Musket
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 02:41 AM

It needs less than a 1+5=6% swing Bridge..

I doubt any one party can achieve a majority so horse trading is the name of the game.

The Tory dash to risk Europe is somewhat frightening and despite our Labour candidate ignoring our part of the constituency (even naming her website after the only two towns she is interested in) and despite the sitting Tory MP being about as left wing as you can get in their party and highly visible, I can't vote for Cameron who is weak and Osborn who misses the point of having a public purse in the first place.

Oh, and before Bridge mentions it, I would indeed do far better personally under the Tories.

But like many, I am interested in what a government can do for all whilst every politician I have seen, read or heard encourages people to vote on their own situation and what a particular party can do for them.

The Europe case is my main reason to feel economically safer under a labour government despite the risk of Ed making a Balls of it. The months leading up to the Scottish referendum saw industry, finance and investment plummet with those who prop up the Scottish economy threatening to pack up and invest somewhere more stable. It would be the same on a bigger scale. The contribution to GDP by those who see us as a gateway to the rest of Europe are a make or break for our ability to look after our people.

Farage speaks of Iceland being able to form its own tariff free trade with China. Mmmm. I think you will find it means China can export there tariff free. Iceland in return can flog a few fish.

Is this the dream of Conservative / UKIP?

Interesting that it was a conservative government that had the foresight to take us into the European dream (although Labour would have done if the French hadn't vetoed the idea) and the only UK politician to propose a United States of Europe? Oh, that'll be the old gentleman with a cigar whose painting adorns every Con Club in the land.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 02:38 AM

"I am totally baffled why so many turkeys seem prepared to vote for Xmas."

Because the 'turkeys' are snobs and think that all of the country's problems can be solved by 'disciplining' those that they perceive to be of a lower social status to themselves. I am convinced that politics goes no further than that for many people.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 15 - 12:37 AM

It would be nice if there were any prospect of a socialist government. Failing that the single most important thing is to get rid of the blasted conservatives (and their fellow-travellers).

The basic reasons are that the welfare state is a wonderful thing, to be cherished and supported, and the NHS is part of that and also to be cherished and supported. Yet the conservatives will destroy both, sell off to their rich cronies state assets paid for by the people, continue to steal from the poor to give to the rich, and continue to destroy the justice system so that the rich and powerful cannot be held to account.

The 1% have done well out of this government. Maybe the 5% have done OK. The rest have not. I am totally baffled why so many turkeys seem prepared to vote for Xmas.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 07:52 PM

Steve to be opposed to homosexual "marriage" is not bigotry, many prominent UK homosexuals and homosexual MPs are against this legislation.

I don't care if the King of Siam, Dame Edna and the Archangel Gabriel are opposed to it. If it's wrong it's wrong, but it isn't. Not one single coherent argument has ever been put up which demonstrates that gay marriage is wrong in any way at all. It's an unalloyed joy at long last for gay people, and, if you don't like it ,well it's none of your damn business anyway. What in God's name is a "prominent UK homosexual" by the way? Would you care to give us a list of "prominent UK heterosexuals", or is this just another example of your dyed-in-the-wool, can't-help-yourself bigotry?

And you have a lot to thank our esteemed moderator(s) for, considering how they leave your foul nonsense up but delete perfectly reasonable, if somewhat direct, challenges to you.

Subject: RE: BS: election uk
From: Musket
Date: 26 Apr 15 - 07:52 PM

Out of interest, what is Michael talking about? What has sex to do with being straight or gay? In fact, why the fixation with men? Nobody was talking about sex, you dirty old man. Get nurse to put some bromide in your tea. Although I hope I still fantasise at your age.

Keith gets it wrong as usual, although as ever, on purpose for nasty reasons. Akenaton as ever alluded to pushing his homophobic views, and I as ever pointed out his hypocrisy, although hypocrisy requires aforethought.. No. I spoke of equality as a key part of SNP manifesto. Like Michael above, you think it's something to do with putting your willy in men's bottoms, whilst Akenaton seems to post about nothing else.

Why is this thread reprinting lyrics by the way? (Flattered I suppose because I contributed a verse although the reprint has a few mistakes and a verse neither Mitch, Larry nor I wrote, but all the same..)

Keith's insistence on dragging it round the threads just makes the song all the more accurate. It was written to satirise those paranoid about gay men. Keith's inability to laugh at such people says it all really. His stalking of Musket is rather cute in a disturbed way.

Do you need help Keith? Your support of right wing politics is on record and noted, no need to offer to join Akenaton in a bit of queer bashing, your support for his odious agenda is there for all to see...