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BS: What amazes you?

FreddyHeadey 07 May 15 - 01:45 PM
Uncle_DaveO 07 May 15 - 02:44 PM
Rapparee 07 May 15 - 03:05 PM
Mrrzy 07 May 15 - 05:52 PM
gnu 07 May 15 - 09:09 PM
LadyJean 07 May 15 - 11:14 PM
Joe Offer 08 May 15 - 12:55 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 08 May 15 - 05:22 AM
Musket 08 May 15 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 08 May 15 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 08 May 15 - 06:04 AM
Steve Shaw 08 May 15 - 06:17 AM
GUEST 08 May 15 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 08 May 15 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 08 May 15 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,CrazyEddie 08 May 15 - 08:28 AM
Spleen Cringe 08 May 15 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,John P 08 May 15 - 09:31 AM
Bill D 08 May 15 - 10:56 AM
GUEST,# 08 May 15 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,HiLo 08 May 15 - 01:02 PM
Sean Belt 08 May 15 - 01:19 PM
Janie 08 May 15 - 07:51 PM
Joe_F 08 May 15 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,leeneia 09 May 15 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,leeneia 09 May 15 - 11:29 AM
Sandra in Sydney 09 May 15 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,gillymor 09 May 15 - 01:59 PM
fat B****rd 09 May 15 - 03:38 PM
olddude 09 May 15 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,Jon 09 May 15 - 10:37 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 15 - 04:51 PM
GUEST 11 May 15 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Sol 11 May 15 - 08:55 AM
Musket 11 May 15 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 15 - 09:46 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 15 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 15 - 10:36 AM
Musket 11 May 15 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 15 - 10:56 AM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 11 May 15 - 11:36 AM
frogprince 11 May 15 - 11:43 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 15 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 15 - 11:49 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 15 - 12:07 PM
Amos 11 May 15 - 01:35 PM
GUEST 11 May 15 - 02:06 PM
Joe_F 11 May 15 - 02:50 PM
Musket 11 May 15 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 11 May 15 - 07:01 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 15 - 07:08 PM
Amos 12 May 15 - 12:27 AM
Musket 12 May 15 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 May 15 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Donuel 13 May 15 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 May 15 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 May 15 - 01:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 04:47 AM
Musket 15 May 15 - 05:24 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 15 - 05:32 AM
Musket 15 May 15 - 07:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 07:44 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 15 - 08:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 08:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 08:50 AM
Steve Shaw 15 May 15 - 09:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 15 - 10:02 AM
Musket 15 May 15 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome 15 May 15 - 02:02 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 15 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 May 15 - 11:31 PM
Musket 16 May 15 - 03:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 05:20 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 10:03 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 May 15 - 11:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 12:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 12:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 May 15 - 12:50 PM
Jeri 16 May 15 - 01:02 PM
Musket 16 May 15 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 May 15 - 01:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 01:50 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 May 15 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 May 15 - 03:00 PM
Musket 16 May 15 - 03:26 PM
Musket 16 May 15 - 03:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 15 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 May 15 - 04:39 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 05:42 PM
Don Firth 16 May 15 - 05:49 PM
Don Firth 16 May 15 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 16 May 15 - 06:24 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 06:31 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 15 - 06:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 15 - 06:35 PM

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Subject: BS: What amazes you?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 May 15 - 01:45 PM

How amazing does something have to be before you call it amazing?

Are you embarrassed when the mc introduces you as 'amazing'?


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 May 15 - 02:44 PM

I haven't,to this date, had that experience, Freddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 May 15 - 03:05 PM

What amazes me is human cupidity. That sort of defines my "amazing."


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:52 PM

People are amazing... I heard of printing DNA today. I want a unicorn.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: gnu
Date: 07 May 15 - 09:09 PM

Complacency. Lack of compassion and a sense of duty to others. I could go on but you know where I am going with this.

All I have to do is go to the grocery store and see assholes who take up a whole aisle with their ass and their cart to witness the downfall of common sense and courtesy. These are the same people who don't vote or who vote for assholes in elections. They are just stunnedasmearse sheep and they will be the downfall of us all. They can't even drive a grocery store cart.

I have said for many years that 50% of people are not as intelligent as the other 50%. I was wrong on the figures. And I am amazed at how far off I was.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: LadyJean
Date: 07 May 15 - 11:14 PM

I was walking home on Tuesday, when a small girl asked to see my umbrella. I gave it to her, and had a minor tussle getting it back. Meanwhile one of her friends requested cookies, or snacks. I had a candy bar in my purse, which I'd bought from a guy selling them for his church. I gave it to her. My second mistake. A short while later there was a group of small girls at my door asking for candy. I'd bought 2 candy bars. I gave them the other one. A short while later they arrived with the empty wrapper and requested more candy. I explained that was all. On Wednesday, a small horde of children arrived at my door, and requested snacks. I supplied cookies. Tonight I passed out peanut butter crackers, and explained what their parents should have explained some time ago, that it was NOT a good idea to take treats from people you don't know. I'm amazed that their parents allowed this.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 May 15 - 12:55 AM

Gee, I've never had anybody introduce me as "amazing." "Infamous" seems to be the term they prefer.

What do I find amazing? Babies, little dogs, and wildflowers.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 15 - 05:22 AM

People and nature.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 08 May 15 - 05:31 AM

Sheffield Wednesday's 92-93 season


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 May 15 - 05:33 AM

I'm amazed that people with children and grandchildren can regard the appalling state of the environment as irrelevant!


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 15 - 06:04 AM

I think some people are getting amazed and appalled mixed up...


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 15 - 06:17 AM

The chamber and instrumental music that Ludwig van Beethoven composed after 1820. The Magic Flute and just about everything else that Mozart composed after 1780.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 15 - 06:48 AM

LSD


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 May 15 - 07:04 AM

Would that be pounds shillings and pence, guest, as per the pretty things song !?         Don't think I have ever been introduced like that either, though it has been known for an occasional audience member to use that or ...awesome...about my songs , but of course, they are wildly exaggerating!.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 May 15 - 07:07 AM

.......oh, and it was received with a mixture of gratitude and a little embarrassment.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 08 May 15 - 08:28 AM

Old dogs and children and water-melon wine.


Somebody had to!


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 May 15 - 09:28 AM

Robert Wyatt singing 'At Last I Am Free.'


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 08 May 15 - 09:31 AM

Music is amazing. All of it, all genres, all styles. Even if it makes me want to run screaming from the room because I dislike it so, the sheer music-ness of it is amazing. The very existence of this astonishing thing that we can do is amazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 May 15 - 10:56 AM

The Hubble Deep Field photos.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 May 15 - 12:45 PM

"What amazes you?"

I am amazed at great thoughts that appear in different locations on this globe near the same time. The zero is an example. It occurred to both the Babylonians and the Mayans around 350 to 300 BCE. It seems so obvious now, but then it was like E=mc2 in the early 20th century or peanut butter sticks to the roof of the mouth in the 1960s. So I think I can say with all honesty that nothing amazes me :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 May 15 - 01:02 PM

The fact that I can put a wee seed into the ground and a few months later I am eating carrots or lettuce. The voice of Maria Callas. The sea and small birds who withstand all weathers and migrate thousands of miles.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Sean Belt
Date: 08 May 15 - 01:19 PM

Also never had the experience of being introduced as "amazing". But I suspect I'd be embarrassed by it if it did happen.

In terms of what I find amazing: That I can get up every morning and be able to play fiddle tunes and sing old songs. Now, that's amazing, satisfying, gratifying and humbling all at one swing.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Janie
Date: 08 May 15 - 07:51 PM

Oh my. When I make a decision to be open to it, everything about the universe and existence amazes me, large and small.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 May 15 - 08:47 PM

This picture was taken by amazing organisms that live on the pale blue dot framed between the rings.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 May 15 - 11:26 AM

I have a tabby cat, a creature most of us think of as ordinary. Sometimes I gaze at the symmetrical design on the top of her head, and I ask myself, "How does DNA do that?"

We've figured out that DNA codes for proteins, and that's amazing. But how do all the liver proteins wind up together, creating a liver, and how do all the cornea proteins wind up over the eyes? And how do the gray hairs and black hairs arrange themselves into a Rorschach design on my cat's head?

There are more things in heaven and earth than our dreamt of in our philosophy.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 May 15 - 11:29 AM

In case you have the misfortune not to have a tabby cat -

tabby designs


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 09 May 15 - 12:07 PM

young people making music - I'm involved in a traditional music program for 8-16 year old musician & would-be-musicians, & we often have their younger siblings join us.

I was recently watching a boisterous preschool boy stop yahooing around & make music. Admittedly he didn't stay all that long with us, but ...

Watching a pair of 8 or 9 year beginners produce lovely sounds in the concert was even better!

sandra (who can't play any instrument)


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 09 May 15 - 01:59 PM

Lots of things but lately it's been sea grass flats. As it becomes less windy here in the south Florida spring the water is clearing and I see all kinds of marine life and a variety of grasses and other flora as I glide over the flats in a kayak, from tiny fish, crabs and conchs to bottle nose dolphins, rolling tarpon, huge manatees and the ocassional sharp beak whale and black tip and nurse sharks coming up from adjacent channels to hunt. I feel so fortunate to be a part of this ecosystem for a few days each week.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 09 May 15 - 03:38 PM

Many of the above but...the sound of the orchestra and chorus at last years Classical Spectacular at the Royal Albert Hall!!


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: olddude
Date: 09 May 15 - 09:50 PM

Dang Gilly lets go bone fishing


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 May 15 - 10:37 PM

For   one, probably the uniqeness of what I'd call (and others may differ on) God's creations. I'd for example know every cat we had by their own ways even if they had looked identical. It may seem odd, us with cats and liking to see birds but (although I've never had one tame enough to come to my hand) I've sort of known friendly blackbirds and robins. Years ago on Conwy quay, I made friends with a seagull on the festival weekend. He would come to me, reject my offer of a chip but want a bit of my burger....

Most creatures I've known long enough seem to have their own distinct personality. Maybe it's "nothing" but when you sort of think in terms of just identifying, eg. this a cat, that is a crow, etc. but think they as well have their own "identities", maybe I get amazed.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 15 - 04:51 PM

Well I'm absolutely gobsmacked every time I contemplate the amazing complexity, beauty and diversity of life on Earth, all of it the product of the wonderful process of evolution. Others may differ.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:50 AM

The people of UK being stupid enough to re elect Tories.

Turkeys and Christmas !!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 11 May 15 - 08:55 AM

I agree with gnu.
The lack of courtesy and basic common sense present in the average person in today's society is amazing to me too.
I thought our 60's generation of hippies were going to create a better world. Boy did I get that one wrong. e.g. Tony Blair.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 11 May 15 - 09:25 AM

Nature's "inventions." Or evolution as we call it.

Everything else is man made, from Bach and Michaelangelo at one end of spectrum to war, waste and God delusion at the other.

Many things amaze me at both ends of the spectrum...


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 15 - 09:46 AM

It also amazes me that I once thought like Musket...


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:10 AM

It amazes me that there are people who refuse to use the massive intellect bestowed on them by (delete as applicable: God/evolution) in order to ponder the world and the universe, instead kowtowing to what someone else has told them to think.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:36 AM

I was a school drop out in the end but my own subjects at A level were phyiscs, chemistry and maths. Science was the only bit that retained some interest for me. I'll concede that we were once church going up till maybe I was 7 but I'd decided athiesm was the way in my early teens.

At that time maybe I did follow the athiesim crowd, it seemed to make more sense. I was not interested in religion at that time and to my dis?) credit did achieve a U grade in O level RE.

I don't think it ever was about being told what to believe


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:46 AM

Atheism crowd?

I suppose I am part of the non chess playing crowd too. We non stamp collectors are opinionated anti philatelists at times, come to think of it.

And as for those of us who don't put ferrets down our trousers.....

Aye, I used to think like Brian from the chippy at the end of my Mum's road but man can't live by a bag of chips with scraps alone. I soon found halibut, squid, lobster..

What's more, there is no book with every fish recipe in it, so I can carry on delighting myself by finding new ones without questioning why, if they are fish recipes, they aren't in the proscribed book of fish recipes.

To be fair, that book only ever had cod in it, and then only battered.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 15 - 10:56 AM

OK maybe the wrong term but Mr Gosling was atheist. Mr Rowbotton was the RE teacher. I was at least aware of the debates.

Ferrets. We actually have one but she ("although I call her "Willy Weasel") not gone down my trousers. She turned up here one day - tried the RSPCA, stc. and evenutaully decided we'd have to try to house her. Getting on a bit now (I'd guess 6) but a friendly little sole in her own "feretty way".


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 May 15 - 11:36 AM

It certainly did not amaze me that the usual suspects are at it again, initiating the evolution and God debate, and then claiming that they are being labelled as the atheist crowd. Now why would that be?!..... Well, they have not demonstrated that their evolutionism accords with experimental and observable science yet, so if you want to go through it again......


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: frogprince
Date: 11 May 15 - 11:43 AM

I almost said that I'm amazed at how difficult it is for anyone to start on any subject here without it turning into another round of unwinnable faith/science debate. But actually I'm not amazed by it anymore; it's become too much the norm.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 15 - 11:44 AM

We can't wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 15 - 11:49 AM

In fairness, pete, I "dropped the bait" when I refereed to God's creatures (or similar) blame me for this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 15 - 12:07 PM

We'll let you off.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 15 - 01:35 PM

One thing that amazes me is the depth and density of human reactance.

Another thing that amazes me is the sheer power of life-force when it is unleashed, and the scope of beauty and joy it is capable of.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:06 PM

It amazes me that this guy is still alive: George Zimmerman wounded in Florida shooting


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 May 15 - 02:50 PM

The Mandelbrot set -- a spectacular example of the well-known fact that simple questions can have complicated answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:21 PM

I admit to starting the bit about ferrets.

The amazing universe that continues to amaze, amazingly and with amazing discovery is far too amazing to be associated with something as trivial and limiting as a God concept.

That's my amazing insight, amazingly enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:01 PM

yeh, maybe jon. but I don't suppose you meant it as bait though, did you ?.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 15 - 07:08 PM

Struggle on, pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:27 AM

Joe:

The whole secret of fractals is exactly the opposite--that apparently complex questions can have very simple answers, with a huge number of reiterations.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:24 AM

With deference to Archbishop Starry pete, I will take it to another (different) level.

It amazes me that with the folk revival of the '60s, the rise of singer / songwriter with guitar as the folk genre and especially the recent resurgence of folk and acoustic roots, making the creative art a most prominent one....

That some weird beards reckon they and a load of dead people from 1954 are the only ones who know what folk is!
😎😎😎😎😎




There pete. Nothing for you to get upset about about.




Oh. Hi Jim. Err.. Fancy meeting you here. Pint?


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 May 15 - 04:43 PM

reckon we might have a measure of agreement on that one, musket.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Donuel
Date: 13 May 15 - 02:58 PM

I'm amazed that I share so many like minded amazements with a fair number of people here.


And that more people don't hit the Ctrl key by mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 May 15 - 01:14 PM

I thought this guy, was amazingly UP! ...and quite refreshing...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 May 15 - 01:25 AM

I posted this on another thread....but I'm adding one more....

Hey, musicians......check this violinist/fiddler out.....(Just had to post this

.......for those who aren't familiar with him.....

Enjoy!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 04:47 AM

I am amazed that, for no known reason, our moon appears exactly the same size as the sun so that each generation sees eclipses that engender a drive to understand the movements of the spheres.
It is if it was planned.
Also that but for our unique Earth/Moon arrangement we would not have had a world stable enough for evolution to have chance to work, and we only have it because a Mars sized planet collided with us at a very precise angle and velocity.
What is the likelihood of that happening by chance?

I am amazed that all the constants of nature are fine tuned to produce suns with a long and stable life and all the chemical elements to make planets and life.
Coincidence upon bizarre coincidence over and over again.
Amazing!


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:24 AM

What I love is that we have worked out how it can happen without being planned.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:32 AM

It isn't quite as amazing as you think (though it is quite amazing). There are hundreds of billions of galaxies with thousands of billions of suns. Billions of those suns are likely to have planets and billions of those planets may have moons, millions of which may be just about the right sizes and distances from their planet to give some very nifty eclipses. As for evolution, who knows how many thousands of possible configurations might yield favourable conditions for water-based life to arise and evolve. When people marvel at "coincidences" in the way you have done, there can be a suspicion that it's leading to something. Especially when you say that that things are fine-tuned. The one amazing thing about all of it is that we have yet to discover a law of nature that has been contravened. My own take is to be amazed at the sheer unmagical ordinariness of everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:30 AM

Considering probability and patterns of chance appear to dictate at the quantum level, I see no contradiction in applying it to the cosmic scale. As Steve says, the numbers involved make it less of a marvel. Still fascinating and still indescribable odds but one monkey has to have typed out Hamlet.

Mind you, I can understand people who don't have an interest in science one way or another wondering how the odds worked. I can also see how wishing to comprehend but not able to leads to superstition.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:32 AM

Steve,
Especially when you say that that things are fine-tuned.

New Scientist,
"Science also teaches us that the laws of physics are ridiculously, almost unbelievably, "fine-tuned" for you and me. Take the electromagnetic force. It has a value that is perfectly set for getting stars to bind protons and neutron to create carbon – the building ..."
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22630190.400-the-human-universe-was-the-cosmos-made-for-us.html


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:41 AM

Another thing that amazes me.
For a long time the only life on Earth was bacteria.
To make the first complex cell, two unrelated bacterial cells had to merge to make an viable hybrid, something that should not be possible.

It happened on Earth only once, so every plant, animal fungus on Earth is descended from that one impossible cell.
Amazing!
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18734-why-complex-life-probably-evolved-only-once.html#.VVXWFvlViko


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:44 AM

Correction, sorry.

Another thing that amazes me.
For a long time the only life on Earth was bacteria.
To make the first complex cell, two completely unrelated bacterial cells had to merge to make a viable hybrid, something that should not be possible.

It happened on Earth only once, so every plant, animal and fungus on Earth is descended from that one impossible cell.
Amazing!
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18734-why-complex-life-probably-evolved-only-once.html#.VVXWFvlViko


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:01 AM

Popular science is popular because it tends to put a popular, even sensationalist gloss on things. It sells mags. The truth may well be more prosaic, Keith. That's the amazing thing, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:41 AM

Or maybe Michael Slezac knows more even than you Steve.
http://michaelslezak.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:47 AM

Or Sir Fred Hoyle,
"A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:50 AM

It is quite amazing that some people will use any excuse to get on their own particular soap box to start an argument. But that is nothing compared to the amazing velocity of my own exuberance.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 15 - 09:37 AM

That may be Sir Fred's interpretation but it is not the mainstream interpretation of people in his sphere and it is not science-based interpretation. Though at least he did say "almost".


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 10:02 AM

Physicist Paul Davies has asserted that "There is now broad agreement among physicists and cosmologists that the Universe is in several respects 'fine-tuned' for life". However, he continues, "the conclusion is not so much that the Universe is fine-tuned for life; rather it is fine-tuned for the building blocks and environments that life requires."

Martin Rees formulates the fine-tuning of the Universe in terms of the following six dimensionless physical constants.[12]

N, the ratio of the strength of electromagnetism to the strength of gravity for a pair of protons, is approximately 1036. According to Rees, if it were significantly smaller, only a small and short-lived universe could exist.[12]

Epsilon (ε), the strength of the force binding nucleons into nuclei, is 0.007. If it were 0.006, only hydrogen could exist, and complex chemistry would be impossible. If it were 0.008, no hydrogen would exist, as all the hydrogen would have been fused shortly after the big bang.[12]

Omega (Ω), also known as the Density parameter, is the relative importance of gravity and expansion energy in the Universe. It is the ratio of the mass density of the Universe to the "critical density" and is approximately 1. If gravity were too strong compared with dark energy and the initial metric expansion, the universe would have collapsed before life could have evolved. On the other side, if gravity were too weak, no stars would have formed.[12]

Lambda (λ) is the cosmological constant. It describes the ratio of the density of dark energy to the critical energy density of the universe, given certain reasonable assumptions such as positing that dark energy density is a constant. In terms of Planck units, and as a natural dimensionless value, the cosmological constant, λ, is on the order of 10−122.[13] This is so small that it has no significant effect on cosmic structures that are smaller than a billion light-years across. If the cosmological constant was not extremely small, stars and other astronomical structures would not be able to form.[12]

Q, the ratio of the gravitational energy required to pull a large galaxy apart to the energy equivalent of its mass, is around 10−5. If it is too small, no stars can form. If it is too large, no stars can survive because the universe is too violent, according to Rees.[12]

D, the number of spatial dimensions in spacetime, is 3. Rees claims that life could not exist if there were 2 or 4.[12]

An older example is the Hoyle state, the third-lowest energy state of the carbon-12 nucleus, with an energy of 7.656 MeV above the ground level. According to one calculation, if the state's energy were lower than 7.3 or greater than 7.9 MeV, insufficient carbon would exist to support life; furthermore, to explain the universe's abundance of carbon, the Hoyle state must be further tuned to a value between 7.596 and 7.716 MeV. A similar calculation, focusing on the underlying fundamental constants that give rise to various energy levels, concludes that the strong force must be tuned to a precision of at least 0.5%, and the electromagnetic force to a precision of at least 4%, to prevent either carbon production or oxygen production from dropping significantly


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 15 - 01:24 PM

Fred Hoyle?

Ah yes.. Excellent astro physicist but sadly for him, students learn more about how he got it wrong over the Big Bang and the blind stubbornness that clouded his judgement than the excellent contributions he made otherwise.

Keith.. Many of the algebraic characters in your post are not always easy to find on a keyboard, but " and another " are easy when quoting. Perhaps as this is a debate, you might add what Keith makes of that? To help, I'll tell you what Ian thinks..

Interesting and about as deep as you would wish to go when justifying chance, probability and circumstance. That said, it would be more interesting if, as well as stating the constants, you pointed out their relationship to each other and what that tells us.

As it is, you are just quoting a set of hypotheses that say what? Or is it just the ability to cut and paste Greek letters into posts that amazes you?

On other matters.

Your exuberance is as abundant as that of the urban spaceman Dave 😎


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 02:02 PM

It's in the wardrobe of my soul.
In the section labelled "shirts".


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:19 PM

Here's the thing when it comes to remarkable bunches of constants. We could, for all we know, be in the one universe, out of billions of failed Big Bangs, that actually worked. There is no-one in those billions of failures to sit around claiming that their version never made it. We are here now, sitting around talking about it, because we are the winners. One success in billions is no more a miracle, needing a God to explain it, than one success in two. If you are reading this, you are doing so because one in particular out of tens of thousands of your mother's eggs fused with one in particular out of hundreds of billions of your father's sperms. The odds against that egg fusing with that sperm are massive. But you are here and it is not a miracle that you are here. No law of nature was breached in getting you here. It's remarkable all right but it is not magic and it did not require magic to bring it about. I've just watched a little spider crawling up my wall. I can be almost certain that that spider, or any spider, has never crawled up my wall along that precise route in the past and never will in the future. It was almost certainly a unique crawl. But that does not mean that it was a miraculous crawl or a fine-tuned crawl. Finally, I should like to hear a proper explanation of where this planner or fine-tuner came from. Who planned and fine-tuned him. It strikes me that a good way forward is to construct hypotheses based on our genuine human observations and experiences that we can test with evidence. What is not a good way forward is to propose a being who is set beyond evidence. Someone could have told Sir Fred that you can't explain things that are difficult to explain by inventing an explanation that is in itself impossible to explain (and for what, embarrassingly after many millennia of striving, there is not a scrap of evidence).


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 May 15 - 11:31 PM

Little things amuse little minds.....Nobody is even interested in rebutting your VERY small view of 'God'...based on your regurgitated disappointments and bitternesses of Catholic folklore....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 16 May 15 - 03:29 AM

Striking a blow for superstition Goofus?

Keep banging the rocks together.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 05:20 AM

That said, it would be more interesting if, as well as stating the constants, you pointed out their relationship to each other and what that tells us.

New Scientist 2nd May.
The strong nuclear force, that binds the insides of protons and neutrons.
Even a tiny bit stronger and there would be nothing but hydrogen.
Weaker and no hydrogen at all.
Even the amount of energy contained in empty space seems perfectly set to allow intelligent life to flourish. That's not all. All told, about 12 parameters have been identified as being just right for life."

Dismiss it all and shrug it off if you like, but it amazes me, and that is the question in the thread title.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 06:45 AM

Well, there a fluffy little cumulus cloud in the sky over my house. The parameters that needed in to be in place in order to achieve its precise conformation are many and complex. The air temperature at different levels, the relative humidity and dew point, the intensity of the insolation of the ground in relation to the simultaneous radiative cooling, the albedo of the surface, the soil moisture content, the saturated adiabatic, unsaturated adiabatic and environmental lapse rates, the surface wind speed and direction, atmospheric turbulence, gustiness, the effects of wind shear, boundary layer physics, any shade provided by higher clouds, the topography on the ground and the presence of irregularities and obstructions to air flow, and stuff I've forgotten. And there's a lot going on in that cloud. Upcurrents, downcurrents, turbulence, evaporation and condensation, release and trapping of latent heat, heat exchange with the surrounding air via conduction, convection and radiation, the ever-changing dynamics of shade and insolation, coalescence of droplets around nuclei, electrostatic effects, and stuff I've forgotten. It's amazing. It's unique. There has never been a cloud exactly like it and there will never be another exactly the same. There are billions of possible combinations of conditions, but as I saw that cloud as a snapshot of its short life all the conditions were just so and they will never come together in that way again. But it's not magic. Actually, it's quite ordinary. It was a very pretty cloud, but no planning, fine-tuning or higher power was needed in its manufacture. There is no reason, except in the minds of the delusional, that there is anything particularly special about a set of conditions coming together. For all we know, millions of times before they might not quite have come together in just the right way, so this could just be our lucky day. Like that egg and sperm getting lucky.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 10:03 AM

Different point Steve.
It was Hoyle first explained the process of synthesising elements in stars, and he also noticed that it could only happen if physical constants were constrained within very tight and critical limits.
Until then he was an atheist.

I thought you might comment on the evolution of complex cells that was not evolution at all, but a one-off event in the history of the world.
A miracle, you might say.
Amazing!


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 10:47 AM

The cloud could only exist in its unique conformation if all the physical, chemical and electrical factors were operating within very tight limits. Obeying the laws of nature, basically, though within a unique set of parameters. As with the Universe. As for the evolution of complex cells, etc., that is interesting conjecture, no more. You talk as if it's fact, which it is not known to be. Direct evidence for such an event has yet to be produced. Had it been a one-off event (I'm severely sceptical myself), then it would still have been taking place in a manner which abided by the laws of nature. Remarkable, amazing, whatever, but not a miracle. You need to find your God another way, I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 15 - 11:18 AM

Stephen: "You need to find your God another way, I'm afraid."

You do!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 12:12 PM

The cloud could only exist in its unique conformation if all the physical, chemical and electrical factors were operating within very tight limits.

No. Different conditions make different clouds.
The only physical constant involved in cloud formation is the triple point of water, and it is not critical.

The physical constants that govern the universe have to be exactly as they are or chemistry could never happen.

Had it been a one-off event (I'm severely sceptical myself),

Dr. Nick Lane is not sceptical.
He is convinced.
I am not qualified to judge, but I doubt your credentials compare with his.
http://www.nick-lane.net/About%20Nick%20Lane.html

And, I have not mentioned God.
Just things that amaze me.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 12:36 PM

From a New Scientist review of a Nick Lane book.
"Complex cells evolved just once. All those countless trillions of simple cells evolving away for billions of years, and yet they stayed simple, with just a single exception.
This is very peculiar when you think about it. For biologist and writer Nick Lane, it is one of the really big mysteries about life he looks at. "
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22630180.600-the-vital-question-finding-answers-about-the-origin-of-life.html#.VVdvPflViko


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 12:42 PM

Discover Magazine.

"In the depths of history, a free-living bacterium was engulfed by a larger cell and was neither digested nor destroyed. Instead, it was domesticated. It forged a unique and fateful partnership with its host, eventually becoming the mitochondria of today. All of this happened just once in life's history and all of today's eukaryotes are descended from that fused cell. Indeed, many scientists view the origin of mitochondria as the origin of the eukaryotes themselves."
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/10/20/the-origin-of-complex-life-it-was-all-about-energy/#.VVdxrflViko


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 15 - 12:50 PM

Keith A of Hertford: "And, I have not mentioned God.
Just things that amaze me."

Why should that amaze you?...Stephen has been baiting this dialogue, because he has issues. He is constantly wanting to prove the non-existence of the 'God' he was taught about, while he was a Catholic...I think it would be better for Stephen to DEFINE the 'God' that he has 'rejected', and made him so resentful...a resentment, that just doesn't seem to go away. That resentment has tainted nearly every post that he puts up on the subject...so much, that he has to lure other posters into laundering his internal conflicts.
In another thread, even SRS called him on his mean-spirited posts.
So Stephen, define that 'concept of 'God'' that has you so hostile about it...but keeps you bringing it up.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:02 PM

Opportunistic infection. Seriously, "what amazes you?" is asking for people's opinions, not another debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:24 PM

So anyway, I asked Keith what he thought about the stuff he cut and pasted, and he replied with another cut and paste from a magazine.

Such people amaze me..


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:28 PM

Well, Jeri, people aren't listening(or reading) to UNDERSTAND....they listen (or read) to REPLY....no matter how misinformed!...They listen to the 'news', not to keep up, but rather searching for topics that they are 're-affirmed' in their opinions....accurate or not!
Then they launder their misconceptions and hostilities on here,(and other places).
What amazes me, is that people aren't even honest enough to concede that ...then want other people to grant them credibility!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 01:50 PM

Many of us have posted our amazements here.
Two people just had to challenge the amazements of others.
Just mine actually.
I am not going to defend my amazement at my things any more.

Sorry Steve.
Sorry Musket.
I just find them amazing, and so do many who actually work in those fields, but what do they know compared to you two?


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 02:36 PM

You have referred to the deluded Fred Hoyle's conversion away from atheism on the grounds of believing the same things about physics parameters as you do. You have suggested that the first eukaryotic organism was a miracle. We don't have miracles in science, Keith. We have phenomena which take hard work before they'll yield their explanations. We leave miracles to incurious suckers. The phenomenon you're so sure took place is a matter of conjecture only. It is not a fact. Even your sources, who you rightly say are more qualified than I am, would admit that (why don't you try asking them?)

Incidentally, Fred Hoyle was far more qualified than I am, yet he clung on to the long-discredited Steady State theory. Newton was also far more qualified than I am, but he believed in alchemy. The path to truth you follow, Keith, the one which is paved with appeals to authority, is strewn with hazards, unfortunately.

As for our friend from sanity, he's never worth talking to, but I'll just say this for his benefit, as he doesn't read. I am not in the slightest bit interested in proving that God doesn't exist. Now have you got that? If I could have an avatar on this website it would be a simple placard with that sentence on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 15 - 02:51 PM

Keith A of Hertford: "I just find them amazing, and so do many who actually work in those fields, but what do they know compared to you two?"

Well the problem you are seeing is that 'know-it-alls' can't learn anything new..they know it all...therefore, unteachable....which is also a major symptom of being psychotic.....true story!

....it must be 'genetic' (rolls eyes).

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 15 - 03:00 PM

Almost a 'nice dodge', Stephen, but nobody asked you to '... in proving that God doesn't exist.'

Maybe YOU don't UNDERSTAND what YOU read...but I already covered that!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 16 May 15 - 03:26 PM

God doesn't exist. Easy.

Well, either that or the invisible flying tea pot does too.

Keith complains that others questioned what amazes him. Nobody questions what Keith believes or finds fascinating.

But unfortunately he asks whether God did it. He didn't. Period.

Keith once said he was a science teacher. I find that difficult to believe but if he is, then his dishonesty is appalling. By mentioning a particular phenomenon and posing the question of intelligent design is below the standard we expect from the teaching profession. So when genuine teachers such as Steve or genuine doctorate scientists such as Musket question mumbo jumbo, don't be surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Musket
Date: 16 May 15 - 03:29 PM

Editing a sentence can result in poor grammar.

I shall take a loaded pistol into my study. Or I would but my study is 200 miles away.

We are on in 10 mins. Time to turn the phone off and tune up.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 15 - 04:19 PM

I do not believe in Goofus. In fact, it amazes me that anyone does.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 15 - 04:39 PM

Like I said, you only pay attention to that which re-affirms your OPINION.....and even with that, you can't back up your opinion. Some people believe in a 'God' some people don't.......some people believe solely in physics aside from a 'god'....some people find the 'two' completely in agreement....and some people believe the 'two' are totally inclusive of each other.

Some people just call other people names, because they haven't figured it out, yet.....so they listen to others who reinforce their own lack of knowledge and intelligence, insights and wisdom.


GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 05:42 PM

And some people are honest enough to say that they don't know whether there's a God or not. In fact, that's what all rational people should be saying. Naturally, there will be a spectrum of opinion as to how much we think we are dangling more down one side of the fence than the other. With me, you can just about see my fingernails from one side and my feet are about a millimetre from the ground on the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 15 - 05:49 PM

And that's the way you do it, eh, Goofus?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 15 - 06:13 PM

Yeah, Steve, I well understand the position. Dangling there myself....

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 May 15 - 06:24 PM

If something is impossible, according to all that is known from experimental, testable,repeatable science, why should it be possible in any universe ? , however much multiverse you imagine. The odds of that spider taking the same route up your wall, or that cloud with that same configuration occurring again are infinitely more favourable than something from absolutely nothing. Last I heard, that is what atheists believe, Christians however, believe in an eternal, uncreated God. That of course, cannot be proved, but the assertion that there is not a scrap of evidence is nothing more than bluff and bluster. What you mean is, is that there will never be enough evidence to satisfy you. And what you believe , ie the general theory of evolution, equates to a secular miracle, since you can offer no experimental observational, repeatable science to validate that belief. Christians however can point to countless evidences of design, and numerous holes in evolutionary dogma.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 06:31 PM

I'm amazed at how you can whip up really good grub when you're late home, you don't feel like cooking, the fire needs lighting, you've got ten tons of shopping to put away, you can't find room in the freezer, you need a wee, you're knackered...a bowl of pasta with some olive oil, sundried tomato paste and a grating of Parmesan will do it in an emergency. Last night I got home at eight o'clock in a very bad mood. It just happened that there were two chicken breasts in the fridge that we were supposed to have had the night before but it had gone to plan B instead. I made a pocket in each one and stuffed a dessert spoon of Boursin Into each. I wrapped each one in a couple of slices of out-of-date Parma ham and bunged them in the oven. At the same time I whacked on a pan of Jersey Royals. I dashed out into the gloaming and found a bit of purple sprouting, enough for two, lurking in the massive clumps I should have dug up weeks ago. Spuds took 20 minutes, chicken 15, broccoli five. On to warm plates with a knob of butter. I was amazed. Manna from heaven, and so simple. It helped that I just happened to have a nice bottle of Negroamaro from Puglia lying around. Amazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 15 - 06:33 PM

Turn the record over, pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: What amazes you?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 May 15 - 06:35 PM

Fred Hoyle was a brilliant astro-physicist.
His theory of continuous creation and a universe with no moment of creation was in line with the facts as they were then known.
It was him who first discovered how finely tuned the basic constants had to be and are.
That is confirmed, not discredited.

Dr. Lane is more certain now than he was in 2010.
It was a single event.

As Jeri said, this thread is about opinions of what is amazing.
That you fail to be amazed by what I put up shows your limited grasp and understanding.

Here they are again,

I am amazed that, for no known reason, our moon appears exactly the same size as the sun so that each generation sees eclipses that engender a drive to understand the movements of the spheres.
It is if it was planned.
Also that but for our unique Earth/Moon arrangement we would not have had a world stable enough for evolution to have chance to work, and we only have it because a Mars sized planet collided with us at a very precise angle and velocity.
What is the likelihood of all that happening by chance?

I am amazed that all the constants of nature are fine tuned to produce suns with a long and stable life and all the chemical elements to make planets and life.
Coincidence upon bizarre coincidence over and over again.

For a long time the only life on Earth was bacteria.
To make the first complex cell, two unrelated bacterial cells had to merge to make an viable hybrid, something that should not be possible.

It happened on Earth only once, so every plant, animal fungus on Earth is descended from that one impossible cell.

Amazing!
Amazing!


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