Jacobite musical items up for auction

Subject: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 15 - 06:01 PM

From an auction next week at Lyon and Turnbull, Edinburgh:

Bonnie Prince Charlie's ivory flute

Jacobite song manuscript, early 19th century

Are there any contemporary accounts of Charlie playing the flute?

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,Jamiese
Date: 09 May 15 - 06:22 PM

........Not more of of Cameron's tosh about the SNP invading Engerland, running amock amoung lawabiding decent British folk and taking over their country........
.......in fact the SNP are lawabiding decent British folk just that they feel more Scottish than British and have got a bit peeved off at being trampled underfoot and patted on the head when asking to be listned to.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 15 - 07:26 PM

I don't think Charlie's flute would work too well for leading an invading army into England anyway. Look at the state of that headjoint.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 May 15 - 07:25 PM

As outsiders looking in.....

MOST of the civilized world took great joy in the recent elections.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Hope springs water

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 10 May 15 - 07:31 PM

Do you mean last week's shindig or the September one, Gargoyle? If the former, I must respectfully disagree.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 15 - 07:45 PM

I was NOT making any sort of political point.

Jacobitism is totally and utterly irrelevant to current Scottish politics. You might as well argue whether the French monarchy would have made a better job of managing the response to Hurricane Katrina.

BTW, the suggested price looks like a steal, quite a lot less than an 18th century ivory flute would ordinarily go for. Maybe the auction house sees the historical association as a liability. Being owned by an arrogant drunken failure whose musical achievements have passed entirely unrecorded isn't much of a plus.

I'd much rather have Frederick the Great's. At least we know he could play.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 May 15 - 11:05 PM

Yes, I looked at the head joint, Jack. I wouldn't want to have something like that in my house because it looks so dirty and distorted. And they think it will fetch 4000 to 6000!

As somebody once observed, there's naught so queer as folk. Or was it "nought"?

It does look like it was well-loved, in fact played to death. But not, I suspect, by Prince Charlie.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: Thompson
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:12 AM

Nowt.

No reason to think it wasn't played by the prince; in the 18th century all educated people could play instruments, and playing music was a normal and common way of relaxing.

Funny, it doesn't look dirty or distorted to me at all. I'd suspect it will soar way above its estimate.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,IanA
Date: 11 May 15 - 01:54 PM

This auction house is not known for its selling of musical instruments and I'm somewhat alarmed that the headjoint is on back to front so that the mouth hole cannot be seen. The D# key is also missing. I think this item should be viewed as a (possible) Jacobite relic and not as a musical instrument.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:06 PM

I'll see if I can get along to look at it on Wednesday.

A missing key is no big deal, but I would have expected more pictures, showing every section from every angle.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,IanA
Date: 11 May 15 - 03:59 PM

This is an expensive bit of kit - it would be curious if there were no maker's name or mark. Ivory 'ovalises' with age - I've no idea how this affects the playing qualities. If you do manage to inspect it, I'd be interested to see your conclusions.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:29 AM

I started discussions on this topic on a couple of other traditional music websites after noticing an article in Thursday's "Times". There was a large gathering of traditional flute players in Edinburgh this past weekend, and a few of us went down to have a look at the flute.
As it is, it is not in any way playable. Neither Niall Kenny, nor I could get a note out of it, as it has long cracks down 2 sides of the headjoint. The middle sections are in better condition, the single key which should be on the foot-joint is absent.
I'm no expert on "Bonny" Prince Charlie, but as this was the first time I'd ever heard it suggested that he was a flute player, I was fairly skeptical, and the "provenance" of the instrument listed by the auctioneers didn't seem all that convincing to me. I should say that the staff at Lyon & Turnbull were exceedingly friendly, and allowed us to have a good look at the flute, take some photographs, and even try playing it. If Jack should manage along - and I think the auction items are on display today, as well as tomorrow before the actual auction, he should find them very helpful.
I also spoke on the phone to Mr. Colin Fraser of Lyon & Turnbull yesterday morning, and he is of the opinion that the provenance
is strong.
I hope Jack can get along for a look, and would be interested to hear his opinions.
I won't be bidding !
Kenny

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 May 15 - 12:56 PM

Thanks for the info, Kenny. The provenance may indicate (but not prove) that the prince once owned the flute, but that doesn't guarantee that he ever played it. He may have received it as a gift and never touched it.

Heads of state (or similar) get lots of gifts.

Whatever the facts about the prince, someone played it enough to ruin it. It's not worth anything as an instrument or as an object d'art. I've decided not to buy it.

Now, if they had a manuscript of music from the prince's household, that would be a lot more interesting.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:02 AM

Just watched the auction live over the internet - sold for the upper estimate of £6,000.
The auctioneer did say at the start of the sale that no-one had been able to get a note out of it, and that several had tried !

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,Semi
Date: 13 May 15 - 10:31 AM

Wow interesting, I didn't know these items were up for auctions for that price. I believe I saw something similar on this classifieds site http://www.europegiant.com/. Does anyone know if they were finally sold ?

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 May 15 - 11:12 AM

Ewald's biography of Charles, published in 1904, states that both Charles and his brother Henry were musicians and as young men in Rome gave weekly concerts for the Rome elite and Charles in particular as a cellist was considered a finished musician. It then gives an extract from the diary of Charles Desbrosses, first President of the Parliament of Dijon who says the he entered a room when the brothers had already commenced Corelli's "Notte di natale". When it was over Desbrosses seemingly exclaimed that he was so sorry he'd missed the beginning so Charles insisted they play the piece again prior to starting another piece!

Not that it proves anything other than the Prince was a musician so it is possible he owned and even played the flute.

Subject: RE: Jacobite musical items up for auction
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 May 15 - 09:20 PM

Kenny, The flute went for £7,500 ( including buyer's premium) - as reported on the BBC Scotland news and as shown on the L &T website.