BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:50 AM

Not me.
It was quoting The Bank Of England.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:18 AM

Can I suggest that responding to Keith tends to close threads
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 15 - 08:15 AM

"Foreign workers are keeping down wages"

Foreign workers do not determine wages. Wages are determined by the people who pay the wages, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:58 AM

From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:00 AM

... and the government via the media are using immigrants as scapegoat.

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:53 AM

Telegraph yesterday,
"Foreign workers are keeping down wages because people are able to find jobs online before arriving in the UK, the Bank of England has suggested

Which bit of the government using the media to create scapegoats is so difficult to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:53 AM

Telegraph yesterday,
"Foreign workers are keeping down wages because people are able to find jobs online before arriving in the UK, the Bank of England has suggested, as official figures showed that more EU migrants last year found work in the UK than Britons.
Official figures on Wednesday showed that the total number of non-UK nationals from EU countries working in Britain increased by 283,000 in the last year to reach a record 1.91 million."

"It came as the Bank said that net inward migration from European countries is having an "impact on wage pressures".
Foreigners' ability to search for jobs before they come to the UK "could make wages less responsive to domestic labour market pressures", the Bank said in a report."

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 06:21 AM

"its very easy if you live faraway from a problem to get sniffy and dismiss what other people are going through".
It always curls me up that Christians who don sackcloth and ashes at the fate of persecuted Christians from Africa and Europe would be the first at the docks and airports with their banners telling them feck off back to where they came from, should they come to these shores to seek refuge from persecution.
Criminals are criminals, wherever they come from and god knows, we have enough of our own before we start singling out those from elsewhere - shame on you Al.   
Whether we like it or not, Britain has a huge moral, social and economic obligation to countries it has exploited down the centuries, all over the globe
As a mnation, we are as wealthy as we are because of our ability to plunder and exploit whole continents, and more often that not, we are responsible for many of the problems left behind - a bit much to wash our hands of that debt.
As far as I am concerned, Immigration has enriched British life and has opened our eyes to the fact that Britannia no longer rules the waves and we are not alone on this planet - something forgotten by many little Englanders.
We still are very much a part in exploiting the poorest nations - buying virtually slave-produced goods and ignoring that fact that yet another factory has collapsed in Bangladesh, killing yet more workers.
European looters - I'd be terrified to go to a football match at which 'English' supporters wouldn't think twice before beating up anyone of a different colour or origin, simply because they were 'foreigners'. ''wogs', 'nig-nogs'...... or any other term that has firmly established itself in the English language to welcome visitors from abroad
As far as thuggery is concerned, British is still best every time (as the adverts used to say)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:50 AM

BTW, Al, How do you know they were "Eastern european looters" that ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. Because you know or your friend know them or because immigrants are so easy to blame?

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:38 AM

its very easy if you live faraway from a problem to get sniffy and dismiss what other people are going through.

Al. I am the son of a Polish immigrant. Until 2 years ago I lived in Salford which has one of the largest immigrant populations in the country and all the lawlessness I saw there was local Salford gangs shooting each other over drugs. I now live near and work in Bradford which has had a huge immigrant population since the 1970s and, again, it is the local thugs that cause all the problems. Not new immigrants. If you think you have a better handle on the issues than I have you are living in a dream world.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:21 AM

Why is Keith speaking of mass immigration and depressed wages?

The minimum wage is low and that is an issue But nobody is legally employed under it and any employer would take whoever is being interviewed. There is no advantage in being foreign.

Scare mongering bigotry again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.

as keith says - its very easy if you live faraway from a problem to get sniffy and dismiss what other people are going through.

i suppose i am a comfortable lefty these days. boston was an insular sort of town - maybe the awakening was long overdue. but i think its been a rough passage for boston people.

i stood on boston green. an old school friend, who nowadays runs a quid shop was standing next to me.. Somme Eastern european looters ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. i sad - why don't you call the police?

no point Al, he said. nothing to be done there.

my old man was a cop in boston. god knows what he would have made of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:17 AM

The poor are the ones most effected by mass immigration.
Their jobs are advertised abroad and wages depressed for unskilled work.
Rents are forced up and, while all other groups can opt for lower cost housing, they are already at the bottom with nowhere else to go.

Who advertises their jobs abroad?

Who depresses their wages?

Who puts rents up?

The implication in this and earlier posts on this theme from you is that, somehow, the blind workings of the market are in play here. Well they are not. The people responsible for these actions are unscrupulous British capitalists, on the whole. Best to not forget that. It helps us to desist from blaming immigrants for all our ills.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Stu
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:05 AM

"The poor are the ones most effected by mass immigration.
Their jobs are advertised abroad and wages depressed for unskilled work."

Don't confuse the effects of mass migration with those of globalisation. Wages are forced down because of a variety of factors but possibly the most insidious is the re-aligning of rates of pay in this country so large companies can compete with the manufacturing economies of China, India and the far east.

The drop in wages and living standards is intentional, and the tories are quite happy to go along with the economics of capitalism that means wages here HAVE to fall to make our consumer-led economy viable. This is why the rich get richer; their wages will never be driven down or taxed fairly whist they can foist the burden on the people and can get their political puppets to do their dirty work for them: witness the ever-continuing emasculation of the unions.

Bilderberg, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:02 AM

No probs, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:01 AM

" and referred to it again in the last post but I am happy to repeat it for you"
Sorry - missed that - wrestling with the garden and haven't kept up here (feckin' bouchaláns)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:00 AM

The poor are 'effected' (sic) by austerity measures far more than by immigration. It was the banks that caused the financial crisis which lead to those austerity measures and the government via the media are using immigrants as scapegoat. It happened in 1930s Germany, it is still happening today and, sadly, people are still falling for it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 May 15 - 04:36 AM

The poor are the ones most effected by mass immigration.
Their jobs are advertised abroad and wages depressed for unskilled work.
Rents are forced up and, while all other groups can opt for lower cost housing, they are already at the bottom with nowhere else to go.

Jim in Ireland and other comfortable lefties can preach that they do not   "believe immigration to be an issue worth voting on" but they see it as an issue that those not effected refuse to recognise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 15 - 05:36 PM

I made the point earlier, Jim, and referred to it again in the last post but I am happy to repeat it for you. By joining in the scapegoating of immigration rather than challenging the real cause of the financial crisis he was no different to the rest of them. To get the party back on track the new leader needs to stop running with the pack and give the electorate something positive. I read Diane Abbot's article as sending the same underlying message. But I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 15 - 03:01 PM

"The poor, who have nowhere else to go have either stopped voting or decided to cut their own throats"

..now's as good a time as any for folks to check out or reacquaint themselves
with the political theory "Hegemony"...😉


"..colluding in one's own domination.."


wiki'll do for starters...

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 15 - 02:22 PM

Interestingly, stats show the Labour vote collapsing 2005-10 in C2DEsectors of the community, recovering slightly in C2D 2010-15, and tanking in E. The poor, who have nowhere else to go have either stopped voting or decided to cut their own throats and vote UKRAP. This too would seem to suggest that for Labour to go back to B.Liar or worse would be a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 15 - 01:25 PM

"Labour's ex leader is a good man, but his championing of immigration controls and failure to challenge austerity give the lie to accusations of extreme leftism"
Not sure of the point your making wtith this Dave - as far as I'm concerned, Millipede's stance on immigration is a good reason not to give him your vote - he certainly wouldn't have got mine - may as well waste it on Ukip if you believe immigration to be an issue worth voting on.
Not sure where Diane Abbot stands on this either, but given her hypocrisy on privare education, I can guess - damn them all!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 15 - 12:35 PM

How did the SNP find so many candidates in such a relative hurry.
Out of the 50 odd new MPs, how many are actually going to prove themselves
to be sufficiently up to such a strenuously demanding job ?

That 20 year old young woman talked a fine fight in the run up debates,
she's a promising star for the future,
but this isn't just vote for student union president, she's got to cope as an MP in the real world.

So what about the prospects for the rest of this new fresh crop ???

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 May 15 - 12:31 PM

"look forward not back"

The problem for the Tories though is that they have been perceived (rightly or wrongly) as an anti-Scottish party. Rather than lessening that has probably been increased in the last couple of months as leading London Tories as well as UKIP made anti-Scottish statement after anti-Scottish statement. Sacrificing potential votes in Scotland to pick up more in southern England.

That won't be forgotten quickly by many Scots. Ruth Davidson and the other leaders of the Scottish Tories were apparently livid with the tactic but again many Scots have taken note that said Scottish leaders did not speak out openly against the said tactic. Davidson touched on it and criticised it only once when pressed in an interview. So I think that the idea that the Tories are anti-Scottish, which started in the Thatcher era, is going to be around for a while yet.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 May 15 - 12:20 PM

I think anyone thinking that the massive increase in SNP membership is of no consequence is on cloud cuckoo land. It has gone hand in hand with a massive change in the pattern of voting. As I said anyway there has been no improvement in Tory support and that is despite the other 2 unionist parties losing 29% of the overall share. If they couldn't pick up votes now when can they? Plus the genie is out of the bottle. The SNP have always struggled at UK level because people thought they couldn't win in many constituencies. They have now shown that they can win everywhere. Even in what was regarded as their two most unlikely places to win. In Orkney& Shetland the Lib Dem incumbent just hung on by the skin of his teeth. Here in the Borders the Tories basically had a disaster. They won 45% of the constituency vote in the last Scottish election; the SNP were second on 26.4%; the Lib Dem collapse had already happened as the former dominant party slipped to 17.3%. In the UK election history tells us that the SNP should have struggled but their share rose to 36.6%; the Lib Dems only imrproved slightly at 18.7%; and the Tories in what was their major target seat dropped to 36%. A whole 9% fall since the Scottish election, in a target seat, with the same popular candidate that won the Holyrood seat. Yet within Scotland they seem to think they did well. Seriously deluded!!

I am glad that the SNP candidate won here. He is a good lad. I wouldn't have been too broken hearted though had the Tories crept in either. John Lamont is a good guy and friend of my wife's. I'd much rather have seen him as Scotland's only Tory than David Mundell. Don't trust him to look after Scotland's interests.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 15 - 11:03 AM

Tried this twice so, third time lucky! Apologies if it comes through multiple times.

Glad to see that Diane Abbot agrees with my comments of 13 May 15 - 03:09 AM. Looks like at least some Labour politicians picked up on that.

In this article she comments "Labour's ex leader is a good man, but his championing of immigration controls and failure to challenge austerity give the lie to accusations of extreme leftism"

Not often that my opinions are the same as a politician!

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 15 - 11:03 AM

Membership of a political party is not a very "British" thing and is no gauge whatsoever of how people vote - I can remember people on this forum enthusing over the fact that SNP membership have surged after the referendum to over 100,000 members - well for that membership number to mean anything it has to climb to over 2,200,000.

Last time anyone looked at "Class" in a modern and up to date sense, they discovered that "Working Class" - "Middle Class" - "Upper Class" was a thing of the dim and distant past, apparently there are now seven distinct classes in society in a modern first world state - all with different aspirations and degrees of contentment and all very mobile between classes as circumstances change.

Probably that is why ranting on about a politician who left power a quarter of a century ago and moaning about closed down coalmines, steelworks and shipyards that aren't ever going to come back does not strike a chord with the voters of today - look forward not back.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 15 - 07:53 AM

As you say, we've got a couple of referendums on the way - one to change the Constitution.
Will be interesting to see the response if the 'Nos' win (hope oot) - would that mean an increase of support for a United Ireland from them up North(joking of course!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Thompson
Date: 14 May 15 - 06:52 AM

This is true to some extent - except that Britain doesn't have gay marriage in Northern Ireland, nor is abortion legal in Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is kind of an à la carte member of the UK - it takes the bits it likes, and not the bits it doesn't like.
In the Republic of Ireland we're currently voting on whether we should change the Constitution to allow gay marriage (there's already civil partnership). Many requests for a referendum on the 8th Amendment to the Constitution, making abortion illegal, have been ignored or deferred.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 15 - 06:38 AM

"The shooting war has stopped, for now, "
Almost!
One of the consequences of the U.K. election result is the possible effect it will have on Ireland and the peace process.
Over the last decade the borders between North and South have all but disappeared, with free movement taking place between the two - it is now possible to move from North to South without having to pass through checkpoints or seek out 'unapproved' road.
Should the U.K. pull out of the E.U., Irish people both sides of the border will be made aware that they are living in two countries on his island.
Also affected will be free passage of goods and the free movement of labour, all of which does not auger well for the Irish people as a whole or for the peace process.
It is a nonsense to suggest the Tony Blair - or anybody "solved" the peace process - 'The Irish Problem' has never been solved by anybody, nor shall it be while partitioning remains.
History is peppered with enough examples of partitioning scattered all over the world to show that splitting a country in half to solve problems (or serve the economic and political interests of others) does not work in the long term, (or in the short term, for that matter)
'Gay marriage' should not enter the equation - Northern Ireland is subject to British law - whatever homophobic religious fanatics think.      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Thompson
Date: 14 May 15 - 05:10 AM

Oh, and "Blair ended the war in Ireland"?
Northern Ireland is an odd place. I was recently at an anniversary ceremony at which a Northern Irish bishop was speaking. She was maundering on about the "two communities" (Protestant and Catholic), stared at with bored bafflement by the mainly Dublin listeners. I was puzzled too. When I said this to people from the Republic of Ireland - from Dublin, Kerry, Cork, Galway, Monaghan, Tipperary, Carlow - they said "Wha?" Here - in the Republic of Ireland - there are no "two communities". As one man said to me, "I didn't even know my friend was Presbyterian until I was invited to his wedding - it never occurred to me to ask."
Northerners are under the impression that Protestants face discrimination in "the South". Absolutely untrue. Nobody has a bull's notion what religion anyone is.
But in Northern Ireland - those six counties still under the jurisdiction of the UK - religion is all-important, and there literally are "two communities", to the extent that this bishop, who has been living and serving in the Republic of Ireland for two years, and studied in Trinity College, Dublin, assumes that Protestants and Catholics are as separate here as in the north.
Is "the war" over in Northern Ireland? I hope so, but I don't know so. In a place with such separation over something so private as religion - a place where (I recently discovered) Catholic and Protestant children do separate exams to qualify for a good secondary school - Protestants and Catholics are as separate as Serbs and Croats. And both are extreme in their thinking; it is normal for Northern Protestant politicians to fulminate against such abominations as gay marriage as forbidden in the Bible.
The shooting war has stopped, for now, but where you have "two communities" there's always the danger of a new outbreak.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Thompson
Date: 14 May 15 - 04:58 AM

Steve Shaw and GUESTsol are right. Labour is no longer a party of labour - of working people, and the clever demonisation by the Tories has ruined their party.
This seems to happen to parties, though; didn't the Tories start as a left-wing party back in the 18th century?
A party starts by advocating equality and decent life for working people, then when crisis hits, takes the line "We have to move to the right because people won't vote for us if we're left - but then when we're in, we'll actually do lefty things". This is the current stance of the Irish Labour Party, which is just passing the Tony Blair stage on its move to the right.
The reason for this, I think, is that poor people don't vote, so parties end up playing to the people who actually vote for them. The solution is to get poor people voting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Stu
Date: 14 May 15 - 04:03 AM

Somewhere online there was a map showing how the second place vote went. Very interesting, lots of kipper in eastern England, lots of tory in eastern Scotland.

Nice to see the kippers imploding now too, as they wheel out their sense of victimhood again and having no-one else to blame, have started turning on each other. Nice!

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 May 15 - 02:36 AM

I think you are missing the point. It isn't about people starting to vote Tory when they get older. It is about the membership of the Tory Party in Scotland itself getting older very election and not being replaced by younger members. And that is what is happening here in Scotland. This is not me taking some stats from websites etc. It is from personal knowledge. We are a split household in that I am an SNP voter but my other half not only votes Tory but works for the Tory Party and is involved in organising the membership side. Believe me they have a real demographic problem. If you go to one of the Tory functions here then you won't feel like one of the older ones at even 65-70. The membership has an extremely high average age. I'd say the bulk here are mid 70s and well over. At 65, apart from my wife who's early 50s, one really young guy, several others and John Lamont himself then you are going to be one of the younger attendees. That is not so at for instance local SNP functions etc. I am going to be doing several songs at our new MPs celebration party on Friday night and as normal it will be a healthy mixture of ages for a membership. From the very young right through to the very old. Those are facts! Whether you want to believe it or not is neither here nor there.

As for the votes needed per seat you are perfectly correct but you can't blame the SNP for that. They have benefited at this election from the first past the post system but they themselves support PR. As do most of the other UK parties apart from the big two. As long as Labour and the Tories hold PR at arms length it won't happen. First past the post has put the Tories in gvt once again with nowhere near a majority of the overall vote and when you look at the actual stats PR hasn't worked against Labour this time nationally and without PR they would probably never again have a majority gvt. These are the two parties to moan at about the voting system.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Stanron
Date: 13 May 15 - 09:05 PM

The statistics can say many different things depending on what you want them to say. For instance more than 1/58th of the population of Scotland voted Tory. At the same time the average number of people needed to elect one SNP member of Westminster was disproportionally smaller than the average number of people needed to elect one Tory MP for the same place.

As for Tory voters dying out, whilst on one hand this is bound to happen, to all parties not just the Tory party, the Tory philosophy is more attractive to the elderly voter, and guess what? everyone is getting older. And another guess what? as time goes on younger people who were not politically aware during the Thatcher era will start to get older, reject the political obsessions of their parents and grand parents and start to see the attractions of an ideology that puts prudence and personal responsibility first.

In the next few years the SNP might have to put up or shut up without being able to rely on the rest of the UK to bail them out financially. We've seen in England how spendthrift socialism can ruin an economy. Maybe Scotland is about to find out too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,allan conn
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:32 PM

Guest I was talking about the position in Scotland. UKIP only got 1.6% of the vote and the SNP got just over 50%. Papers round it down to 50% but it did just shade over half the total votes. Likewise i wasn't talking about Scotland's population being elderly. I was talking about Tory membership in Scotland being made up of mostly elderly people. Much more so I suspect than all the other parties. It must be problem for them. How to attract younger Scots?

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:10 PM

According to the vote tally for this General Election UKIP share of the vote was 12.6% (3,881,129 votes) which is greater than the totals for the SNP and the Liberal Democrats combined (SNP 4.7%, 1,454,436 & Lib-Dems 7.9% 2,415,888)

The interesting thing regarding voting in Scotland is that the SNP with their 1,454,436 would still not win a vote for independence as they still do not represent the majority of voters in Scotland.

"They also have the problem of a more elderly support base and membership. Time and demographics are not a friend to the Tories in Scotland"

Don't think so Scotland's population is aging at the moment something like 40% of the working population are paying for 23% of the population drawing state pensions, in 15 years time provided unemployment remains the same 40% of the working population will be supporting 39% of the population who are qualified to draw a state pension.

This election and the surge in SNP membership has given the SNP a number of problems

1: Their presence at Westminster is of no consequence, all the boasts (Mainly by Alex Salmond) about the SNP writing the UK Budget is all hot air.

2: The surge in membership in the aftermath of the independence referendum will demand and expect a second referendum on independence during the term of the 2016 Scottish Parliament and there will be hell to pay if that is denied

3: They will undoubtedly win the Scottish Parliamentary elections in 2016 and this time the Government of Scotland will have to use the powers they have to address what they see as "Scottish" problems - just sitting back and blaming Westminster is no longer an option. They can hardly demand greater fiscal autonomy and greater tax raising powers if they are not prepared to use what powers they currently possess. That will mean increasing taxes for those living in Scotland and we will see what that does for their "popularity".

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 13 May 15 - 07:26 AM

It doesn't reflect directly but it shows how the parties are standing and the Tories have made no impact into anyone's vote. There may have been a bit tactical voting but I don't think it would have been significant despite the workings of the Daily Mail etc. The plain facts are they got their lowest share of the vote ever and were just a few hundred votes away from losing their only MP and once again being without any Scottish MPs - on a night when their two main unionist rivals lost 29% of the share. Can't even be blamed on UKIP who only got about 1.6% share. And more worryingly for the Tories the 15% figure ties in with what polls seem to be showing for the Scottish elections next year. Ruth Davidson seems to think they may well be the official opposition in Scotland but that is I think real head in the sand stuff when she is only on 15% for the constituency vote. What may have been a problem for her was the Cameron/May anti-Scottish rhetoric. That can't have helped her cause at all in Scotland. Labour despite the collapse still has almost twice the popularity of the Tories. I think Labour are also far more likely to win back some of their wayward voters than the Tories are likely to win new voters. Remember they have been bobbing along on the teens percentage wise for years now! They also have the problem of a more elderly support base and membership. Time and demographics are not a friend to the Tories in Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 15 - 06:44 AM

"As lots of leaders fall here in Scotland the Tory leader Ruth Davidson has been praised for her campaign. Yet by share of the vote it is the worst Tory result ever in Scotland. I am amazed there is no pressure on her."

The General Election called to elect MPs to Westminster is irrelevant to the leader of any political party in the Scottish Parliament even the SNP. Any possibility at all that "tactical" voting dropped the share of the vote among non-nationalist parties?

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 15 - 04:57 AM

If Labour had won a few more seats, they would have been weak and "propped up by an SNP that wanted to destroy the United Kingdom"

It was not a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:14 AM

Should have added - unregulated financial markets both initiated and bolstered by the Conservatives. If they had held up their hands and admitted their part in that disaster as well as detailing what they would do to get out of it they may have had more credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 15 - 03:09 AM

I can't say as I have a particular issue with New Labour. Tony Blair, IMO, was particularly good at most things until Iraq. The leadership since has, however, been particularly poor. The single thing that annoyed me most, and this was not just Labour but the ConDems as well, was the immigration bandwagon. Instead of trying to convince people that immigration was not the cause of all our ills they bowed to popular opinion in order to win votes. It didn't work for them though. They should have distanced themselves from scapegoating the wrong people and concentrated on getting to the root cause of the economic crisis - unregulated financial markets. Hope they try harder next time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST,allan conn
Date: 12 May 15 - 07:30 PM

Re the share of vote thing. As parties take a battering they set their sights much lower. As lots of leaders fall here in Scotland the Tory leader RuthDavidson has been praised for her campaign. Yet by share of the vote it is the worst Tory result ever in Scotland. I am amazed there is no pressure on her. Between them Labour and Lib Dems share of total vote fell by 29% and the Tories picked up none of it. In fact their share dropped too

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 15 - 06:40 PM

That was a factor, Richard, but Labour never had an answer to the five-year-old Tory mantra that they were "having to clear up Labour's mess". They should have been
ready to pour scorn all over that Tory lie and move on, but they were on the defensive about it all the time. During the campaign, it was the other Tory lie, that Labour would be weak and "propped up by an SNP that wanted to destroy the United Kingdom" that nobbled Labour in England. The media certainly reinforced both those messages, it can't be gainsaid, but the campaign managers behind Cameron got the required message spot on. That's what Labour must learn from.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 15 - 06:34 PM

The daft thing is that supporting people's aspiration has always been part of a left agenda - "bread and roses" remember? It's just that the left idea was that people's aspirations were best met if all were lifted out of poverty...

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 15 - 05:52 PM

I am blaming the idiots who failed to read behind the lies in Murdoch (not "Murdock") and Rothermere, and Desmond propaganda. Why don't they THINK?

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:51 AM

Be buggered if I meant to say biggered in my last post.

iPad for sale.
Tsk

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:36 AM

The Labour membership,the MPs and MEPs all voted for DM to be leader.
It was the affiliated members vote that got EM in.

That is one reason I thought it worth quoting him.
The other was that it endorsed my views.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 15 - 10:26 AM

I'm not sure. There was a suggestion that everybody was though.

Labour does need to reclaim the middle ground. We don't have an SNP to claim it in England and Wales so it shouldn't be too bloody difficult.

Five years of honing skills as opposition is generally good training ground for a would be leader. Be biggered if I know who is up to the task though. Andy Burnham has the intelligence but statesman quality? Not too sure about that. I would pop down the bookies if Alan Johnson throws his hat in the ring. I doubt I would get good odds though.

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 15 - 09:48 AM

and who exactly is "blaming the electorate" ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 15 - 08:55 AM

... and David Milliband is some kind of serious supreme authority
whose opinions are more substantially correct than anyone elses ?????

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 15 - 08:10 AM

David Milliband,
"There's absolutely no point in blaming the electorate. Any suggestion that they didn't 'get it' is wrong. They didn't want what was being offered."

Miliband said: "I think that the voters have delivered a very clear verdict. And unless Labour is able to embrace a politics of aspiration and inclusion, a politics that defies some of the traditional labels that have dogged politics for so long, then it's not going to win."

He said the choice was "very, very clear" – "either we build on what Labour achieved in 1997 and we have a chance to succeed, or we abandon it and we fail. That's what's happened in 2010, in 2015, and it mustn't happen again."