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Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation
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Subject: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Will Fly Date: 12 May 15 - 09:12 AM I've put this under the "Folklore" heading, because I think local dialects and ways of pronunciation fall generally into that subject. Down here in Sussex (UK), there are place names in the locality, the speaking of which mark out a local from a "foreigner" (anyone not local), and which aren't obvious from the spelling. The "local" pronunciation can vary from what might seem the obvious pronunciation in several degrees of difference - from slight variations in stress to real dialect variations. So, for example: The "ly" ending to a word is usually stressed and pronounced as "lie" - as in Ardingly and Chiddingly ("Arding-LIE", "Chidding-LIE"). Sussex name stress is often on the last syllable, though this is dying out as ageing population dies and more newcomers arrive. So Seaford is pronounced "Sea-FORD", not "SEA-ford". Alfriston is pronounced "OLL-friston", and the weirdest (and oldest) Sussex variations I know are for Heathfield, pronounced "Heffle", and Burwash, pronounced "Burrish"). Just come back from seeing a friend in Southampton this morning - though he pronounces it "Suth-AMP-ton! I've been to Puncknowle, in Dorset, to find it pronounced "PUNN-ell" - that marked me out as a foreigner immediately... What are your local pronunciations and variations - UK and US - and elsewhere? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Long Firm Freddie Date: 12 May 15 - 09:15 AM Thornton Heath is Forntneef. LFF |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Will Fly Date: 12 May 15 - 09:15 AM Forgot to say: my mother was born in "Loowestarft" (Lowestoft) in Suffolk, and often visited "Narch" (Norwich) in Norfolk as a youngster. Pronunciation as heard from her. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Jon Date: 12 May 15 - 09:35 AM Wehn I lived in Kent, "Speldhurst" could be "SpeldHARST". Round here, Norfolk we have "Potter heigham" - "potterum", "Weybourne" - "webburn" and "Stiffkey" - "stookey". Of course areas can have there differences as to what is correct. I was born in Shrewsbury which like my mother born and bred there pronounce "Shrowsberry". I gather my grandmother (mothers mother) from Westbury might use neither of these, using "Salop" for the town. The largest portion of my own life was N Wales so whlie not a Welsh speaker, I can say things like "Dwygyfylchi". Some English want to call a village I once lived in as "Pie dew" (it's spelt Pydew and more sort of "pud ow"). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,SqueezeMe Date: 12 May 15 - 09:42 AM The New South Wales (Australia) town of Canowindra in pronounced Canoundra. Goonoo Goonoo (NSW) is pronounced Gunner Gernoo. Cairns, in Far North Queensland? I tell American friends that it is pronounced the way a Texan would describe the containers that beans are sold in.... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: r.padgett Date: 12 May 15 - 09:48 AM Dodworth and Cudworth near Barnsley, Sth Yorkshire Doderth, Cuderth Ray |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome Date: 12 May 15 - 09:52 AM Barnoldswick=Barnick |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: wysiwyg Date: 12 May 15 - 09:57 AM Covington, PA is Cuhvington, not Cahvington, after our sister city in KY. Wellsboro is Wellsburra, not Wellsbohroh. (PA) Lancaster, PA is LANC'uster, not LanCastEr. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: greg stephens Date: 12 May 15 - 10:41 AM Not exactly pronunciation: as a child, our shopping was done in Barnstaple. Which, confusingly to outsiders, was referred to by locals as Barum. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 12 May 15 - 10:43 AM Launceston is interesting. In Cornwall, it is pronounced Lawnston, or Lanston. However, the town in Tasmania, named after the Cornish town presumably, is pronounced exactly as spelled. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Manitas_at_home Date: 12 May 15 - 10:53 AM Plaistow in East London is pronounced Plah-stow as opposed to the usual Play-stow. We also have Katherine Road pronounced eye-ne, and Balaam Street pronounced Bay-lam. In nearby Barking Movers Lane is Mow-vers rather than Moo-vers. These pronunciations are being eroded. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 12 May 15 - 10:54 AM The Town Name plate for Woolfardisworthy in North Devon has , underneath the name and in brackets Woolsery which would seem to be how the locals pronounce it . |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Splott Man Date: 12 May 15 - 10:58 AM Leigh in Surrey is pronounced Lye, but just a few miles further East, Leigh in Kent is pronounced Lee. Splott Man |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Will Fly Date: 12 May 15 - 12:10 PM I'll be seeing some friends in "Congerton" (Cheshire), next week - Congleton to you. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 May 15 - 12:13 PM Appletreewick in Yorkshire=Aptrick A lot of longer local names are abbreviated in common speech and even on road markings Bridlington is usually Brid Withernsea is With |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Megan L Date: 12 May 15 - 12:37 PM Splott to confuse matters further the Leigh in Orkney is pronounced lay. Milngavie is Millguy, Strathhaven is Strayven,Cullross is Cueross and my favourite was an old neighbour who told us he had been born in fifty and grew up in afart which translated as Foot of Dee (Aberdeen) and Aford |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 12 May 15 - 12:44 PM Here in Indiana we rejoice in multitudinous place names from the Old World and ancient history, and place names from historical figures. There's Milan, (of course a version of the Italian city, Milano) which becomes MY-luhn in Indiana, rather than Mi-LAHN. The French nobleman who was such an important help to the American revolution is honored by the name of Lafayette, Indiana. But that name is variously pronounced as Lay-fee-ETT or Laugh-ee-ETT, and I have occasionally heard it as Luh-FAY-et. The city name "Carmel" which you may see on a map of California, is Car-MELL there, but in Indiana it's CAR-m'l. The Indiana county named Terre Haute ("high ground"), which should be more or less Tair-uh Hote, becomes Tair-hut or Taira-hut, and sometimes (with tongue in cheek) "Terrible Hut". Peru, Indiana, is often spoken of as Pee-roo. Both the city and the university named Notre Dame abandon any attempt at "Note-ra Dahm", and are almost universally rendered as "Noter Dayme". And lots of other weird and wonderful place names which escape my present memory. Some of them will come back to me later, and I'll post them at that time. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Mark Clark Date: 12 May 15 - 01:04 PM I've long assumed the U.S. to be the worst offender when it comes to pronunciation of place names. I still remember picking up our French foreign exchange student at the airport and asking about her flight. She said they went through customs at Day-Twah'. It took me a minute to realize that she was using the correct pronunciation for the city we know as Dee-Troyt (Detroit). Examples off the top of my head include…
I'm sure the complete list is very long. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 12 May 15 - 01:15 PM Victoria, BC (Canada) has a suburb called Esquimaux, which is presumably the French for 'eskimos', but the locals call it Ess-kwye-morx. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: alex s Date: 12 May 15 - 01:32 PM In Northunberland "-ingham" is pronounced "ing jam", as in BellingJam, OvingJam etc. A weird one-off is Lebanon Street in Burnley - the old-timers call it Leebanyon Street |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,LynnH Date: 12 May 15 - 01:39 PM Ilson, Heena/Eyna, Bradda, Ossley, Tidsa, Utcheter, Traal.........= Ilkeston, Heanor, Bradwell, Horsley, Tideswell, Uttoxeter, Trowell. Then we've Derby(UK) pronounced Darby and Erewash (Valley,river,canal) is most definitely not pronounced Earwash! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Mr Red Date: 12 May 15 - 01:49 PM Walsall district of - Caldmore - pronounced calmer. Northants - Coggenhoe - pronouced Cuckno Northampton - Duston, in Northampton pronounced Dusson, in Duston pronounced Duston! Staffs, Peak District - Ilam - eye lamb not 11:00 hours! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 12 May 15 - 03:15 PM Slaithwaite = "Slowitt" (near Huddersfield) Chop Gate = "Chop Yat" (north of Helmsley) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Joe Offer Date: 12 May 15 - 03:40 PM I spent my teenage years in Milwaukee, so I'm allowed to pronounce it Muh-WOK-key like the locals (silent "L"). Those of you did not live there in your formative years, are required to pronounce the "L." There is a way that we locals pronounce "Wisconsin" that many outsiders try to imitate, but they always fail. Don't even try - just pronounce it like it's spelled, or we'll think you're making an ass of yourself by trying to make fun of us. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Jim Dixon Date: 12 May 15 - 04:02 PM Cairo, Illinois is pronounced KAY-ro. In Minnesota, there is a lake called L'Homme Dieu (probably Lac L'Homme Dieu) that is pronounced La-HOM-ma-doo. (It's not a very well-known lake, as lakes go. We've got 10,000 of them, don't you know.) There is a suburb of Minneapolis that always throws newcomers. It's Edina – pronounced Ee-DYE-na. Now, I don't know how Edina got its name, but I've heard it's an old "poetic" name for Edinburgh, Scotland. Is "Edina" a well-known word in Edinburgh? Would a Scotsman pronounce it the same way? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 12 May 15 - 04:03 PM In Nottnum it's pronounced Dah-beh or even Der-beh. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 May 15 - 04:45 PM Burgh/brough/borough (the berg/borg of Scandinavia) have lots of spellings and pronunciations. The most common pronunciation is 'burra' regardless of spelling, but American tourists give us some interesting variations like 'borrow'. Locally we have Middlesbrough, Scarborough, Flamborough, all 'burras' like Edinburgh but Brough is pronounced 'Bruff'. If the Brough comes at the beginning as in 'Broughton' it's pronounced Braw. Wicks invariably drop the w Alnwick=Annik Beswick=Bezzik Warwick=Worrik Kilnwick=Killik |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Dave Hunt Date: 12 May 15 - 05:09 PM Happisburgh = Haze-brer (as in the end of Edinburgh) Loughborough = Luff-brer nearer home Wednesbury = Wensbree Wednesfield = Wensfeeld Worcester = Wuster Worcestershire = Wuster-sheer Uttoxeter = Ucheter Leominster = Lemster Shrewsbury is interesting - Shroesbree or Shruwsbree, Shrewsbury comes from the Saxon name 'Scrobbesbyrig' which doesn't sound like either of them! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 12 May 15 - 05:34 PM I have no idea if this is correct or not but I did read somewhere that one pronunciation of Shrewsbury referred to the school and the other to the town. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Jon Date: 12 May 15 - 05:44 PM I'm not sure if that could be (and don't think I've heard it suggested before) but my mother's secondary school was Priory Girls. I believe there was also a Priory Boys. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Thompson Date: 12 May 15 - 06:19 PM Towns called Leap and Balla in Ireland are pronounced Lep and Bal (rhymes with Hal). Howth is pronounced Hothe (with a soft 'th' like in moth but a long 'o' like in nose); Dalkey is Dawky, Donegal is Dunneygaul, with the emphasis just slightly more on the gaul. Galway is gaul-way. Louth (confusingly for English people) isn't pronounced like the place in England, but with a hard 'th' like the. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Jon Date: 12 May 15 - 06:30 PM A bit of a drift but I can't do Irish words. I seem to remember getting told that the jig I'd called "Grainne's" (which I pronounced like you might cereal) should be a female name pronounced as "Gronya" |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Susie Date: 12 May 15 - 06:56 PM Many good 'uns up in my native Cheshire - Cholmondeley said "Chumley" etc, but I think the one that takes the biscuit is Utkinton, said "Yockerton" [home of the famous Yockerton Freedom Fighters]. If you COME from Nantwich - like me - it's NantWICH, not NANTwich. I suspect that a lot of these fascinating pronunciations in England, at least, stem from early names for those places - probably the Anglo Saxon / Viking names which stayed in the vernacular speech despite Norman overlords. Toponymy has always fascinated me! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Leadfingers Date: 12 May 15 - 10:11 PM And the next station after Hayes and Harlington is Striton , or West Drayton if you aren't a local . |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: MGM·Lion Date: 13 May 15 - 12:20 AM The village next along towards Cambridge [which BTW cannot possibly be pronounced as you just said it in your head], is called Wilburton: not pronounced Wilbur-t'n, but Will Burton. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: LadyJean Date: 13 May 15 - 12:32 AM The community just up the road from me is called North Versailles, pronounce Versayles. There's a Versailles Kentucky, pronounced the same way. Elizabethtown Tennessee, has the accent on the beth. Elizabethtown Kentucky is called E Town. The river that runs near my home is called the Monongahela. That's pronounced Mon on ga hay la. You can spot locals, we can pronounce it. People not from around here cannot. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 13 May 15 - 03:02 AM In Kent we have Goodnestone near Faversham, this is pronounced Good Ness Stone. We also have Goodnestone near Canterbury, (about 10 miles away), this is pronounced Gunstone. Visitors to one, arrviing in the wrong one are frequently 'Not amused'. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Kampervan Date: 13 May 15 - 03:04 AM That last post was me - Kampervan |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Mr Red Date: 13 May 15 - 03:38 AM I bet my Grandfather could pronounce Monongahela. He lived in Allagheny County, 1910-1917 (ish). He came back when he realised he was the only one of his workmates (Allagheny Iron & Steel) who didn't sleep with a gun under his pillow! There are two great uncles buried there aged 6 months and 6 days. Wednesbury - we Wedgeburyites often referred to it as Wedgebury. Wednesfield - referred to as Humpshire from the hump-backed lockmakers. It was said (jokingly) that pubs had alcoves so the hump-backed lockmakers could lean back comfortably. Walsall - war sull and what about the "areal of Brisel" - the "area of Bristol" to you. Wiveliscombe Devon, Wivelscum Stouffville Ontario - Stow-vill Toronto - Tron'to |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 13 May 15 - 03:52 AM Snozzle = Saint Austell, Snorbans = Saint Albans, Lu?n (where '?' represents the glottal stop) = Luton. Fifteen miles apart, Houghton Regis is How (or Ow), Houghton Conquest is Hoe (or Oh). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Sol Date: 13 May 15 - 04:57 AM I've always pronounced 'Belfast' as 'BELfast' however in NI it appears to be pronounced 'BelFAST'. A friend from that city said that the residents of the city pronounced it the former way and the rest of the N Irish folk pronounced it the latter way. Is that correct? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST, DTM Date: 13 May 15 - 05:16 AM Towns/cities in Scotland Milngavie = Mull-GUY Linlithgow = LITH-gie Edinburgh = EM-bra Glasgow = GLEZ-ga Anstruther = AIN-stur Galashiels = GAUL-ie Hawick = Hike Newtongrange = NITT-in |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 May 15 - 05:22 AM Belvoir in Rutland (Belvoir Castle, Belvoir Hunt etc.) is correctly pronounced Beaver. I imagine that most places were once pronounced as spelled. I bet that Laucestons in US, mentioned earlier, are pronounced as they were here at the time of their founding and probably as spelled. Foreign names used to be always mispronounced in English as spelled, eg Paris. Cairo, mentioned earlier, follows that pattern and features in a Dillon Bustin song. Chile is rhymed with while in the Amphrotite song. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 May 15 - 05:25 AM Frigate Amphritite. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 May 15 - 05:26 AM Amphitrite. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 13 May 15 - 07:01 AM What most people don't realise with the written word is it is an approximation of the spoken word. Each letter is a symbol for a sound. The spelling of the word is the writers attempt to imitate the word as it is spoken,a sort of code. The spoken language has a great deal of information in it,tone,emphasis,and all the other clues we use to convey meaning are difficult to put into writing. A local Knows how to say a name ie the way every one else does in the area,a visitor pronounces the name as it is written. We are taught how to sound letters in school and teachers tell us a word should be pronounced according to the letters in it. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Tootler Date: 13 May 15 - 07:55 AM I have disagree with Steve Gardham about MIddlesbrough. I usually hear it as Middlesbro' with a long "O" I remember a station announcer using the same pronounciation for Peterborough - "Peterbro'' Definitetly a Teesside version not a local one from the Petrrborough area. Newcastle is normally pronounced with the stress on the second syllable "NewCAStle". My wife's nephew married a lass from Detroit. For fun we tried to get her brother to pronounce Newcastle in that way and he couldn't manage it. Where I used to live in W. Yorkshire, Linthwaite is pronounced "Linfit". Slaithwaite is the next village up the valley and the Slowitt pronounciation, though common was not always used. Some people used "Slathwaite" much nearer to how it was spelt. My brother-in-law uses both depending on who he's talking to. I remember once we'd been to Manchester and were coming home on the bus. A woman in front of us asked the conductor (they still had them then!) in a posh English accent for Slaithwaite. The conducter looked a little unsure for a minute then asked her, in broad Yorkshire "Does t'a mean Slowitt Lass?" |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Jack Blandiver Date: 13 May 15 - 09:19 AM Anyone mentioned CAMBOIS yet? That's CAMISS to locals. Then there's SOUTHWELL - which is SUTHELL to out of towners but SOUTHWELL to locals. I like that. It's right to stress the second syllable of NEWCASTLE, but the first syllable is flattened to a NYUH sound. Otherwise it's THE TOON. Cley-next-the-Sea (as it was once; what's now the village green was once a harbour!) is CLY, though I much prefer the old JUXTA MARE suffix. SALLE is SAUL or SOUL - three houses, cricket pitch and a cathedral in the middle of darkest Norfolk. I hope to be there this time next week. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Weasel Date: 13 May 15 - 09:37 AM Always fun to hear non-locals try to pronounce Oswaldtwistle in Lancashire. Weasel |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome Date: 13 May 15 - 09:49 AM Osselltwizzle if I remember rightly :-) My Sister lived just of Thwaites Toad there. Locally pronounced, unfortunately, as 'Twatsis Road'! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 13 May 15 - 10:17 AM About 40 years ago in a pub in Aberystwyth I remember some locals laughing about how a guy from Cardigan pronounced Penparcau (a housing estate on the edge of the town). I couldn't tell the difference between they way they said it and the way thy claimed that he did. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Bob the Postman Date: 13 May 15 - 10:19 AM The suburb of Victoria BC alluded to in the post of 12 May 15 - 01:15 PM is not Esquimaux but ESQUIMALT, which, according to Professor Wiki, means "place of shoaling water" in Straits Salish. Esquimalt is pronounced as written. Foreigners (Ontarians and the like) pronounce the name of the BC town "Quesnel" either French-style as "keNEL" or English-style as "KWEZnel", but locals know the secret true pronunciation: "KWEnel". |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 13 May 15 - 10:33 AM PO-KA-tello. Mispronounce "Pocatello" as PO-CATTLE-oh and they'll laugh at you and make you buy for the bar. Inkom is prounced INK-um. Boise is proncounced "BOY-see" and not as the French would. Quincy is pronounced "KWIN-zee" on in the same state as BOSS-ton. Everywhere else in the US -- Illinois, Indiana, California, Washington -- it's pronounced "KWIN-see". It's not "MISS-ur-ee" but "MISS-ur-ah." It's "Ill-uh-noy" and not "Ill-uh-noise." Of course, up in Canada they're having Nunavut. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Padre Date: 13 May 15 - 11:17 AM Here in Virginia, we have a few: Botetourt County is "BOT-UH-TOT' not BOTETOORT Buena Vista is 'BYOONA-VISTA' not BWAYNA VISTA Buchanan is 'BUCKANNON' not BYOOCANNON |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: theleveller Date: 13 May 15 - 11:39 AM "Belvoir in Rutland (Belvoir Castle, Belvoir Hunt etc.) is correctly pronounced Beaver." Right pronunciation, wrong county - it's in Leicestershire. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: akenaton Date: 13 May 15 - 12:09 PM Launceston is pronounced "Laan ston"! got that from a 95 year old native :0).....one Audrey Maynard, who has a painting of her fathers sloop "Jessica" on her wall....sailed out of BUDE. Painting by a Mr Rueben Chappell of Goole. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: dick greenhaus Date: 13 May 15 - 12:13 PM On of my pets is the street in Chicago named Go-ee-thee (Goethe). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 13 May 15 - 05:47 PM Examples abound here in Massachusetts, US. Woburn = WOO burn or WOO bin Haverhill = HAYVrill "My friends live in SWAMPscott," I said to a former GF's uncle, who sniffed, "I can tell you're not from around here" at me. "It's SWAMPsc[u?]t." Various "ham" endings confuse the uninitiated: Sometimes the "ham" is pronounced like the meat; other times it's an "um"-like sound. For example, EASTham has the full ham sound, while DEDham sounds more like "DEDum." Many non MAers trip over Framingham, with its first "a' being a long one, followed by the full ham. Even within MA, I have heard many fumble the formidable Ashburnham, which is pronounced ASH'burn ham, not "ash BURN um." When I visited the UK, I was delighted to hear, on a train, "CHELTnum" (that's how I heard it). There isn't one of these in Massachusetts; it's possible pronunciation here is speculative. As an aside, the weather event now commonly called a "nor'easter" is more properly a "nawth EAST uh," which is rarely heard these days. Slow end of the day here at work...great thread...thank you. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Brian Peters Date: 13 May 15 - 06:22 PM In these parts, Tintwistle is often (though not always) pronounced 'Tinzel' by locals. Citizens of Connecticut insist on sounding the 'W' in their town of 'Norwich'. Not sure which is older. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Jon Date: 13 May 15 - 06:36 PM On the UK Norwich, I say "Norridge". Like the man in the moon coming down and winding up eating cold plum porridge. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Tattie Bogle Date: 13 May 15 - 06:39 PM Re Shrewsbury: we lived there for a good few years, and the local paper. the Shropshire Star, did conduct a survey on how the town's name should was pronounced : seemed the commonest pronunciation for true Salopians was to leave out the first r - so it's SHOOSBRIE. Megan and DTM have covered some of the Scottish ones, but there's also a change of emphasis in some names such as DunBAR and DunLOP (English people tend to emphasise the DUN, whereas Scots emphasise the second syllable). And of course, all those lovely stretches of water are Lohhhhhs, not Locks! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 13 May 15 - 07:01 PM Oh yes. Just on the basis of my modest reactions to this thread so far, it could become a structural, epic, mega- permathread. Just for starters, I commented on the phenomenon to the lady of the house in a nice B&B in a not very exotic part of England a couple of years ago. I can't even remember exactly where it was, but I think it was in the general vicinity of Kenilworth. I made some joke about the fact that I was probably mispronouncing the name of the place, because e.g. Kenilworth was probably something like "Kudge" or "Kort" to the locals. She had been a teacher, and shot back the retort that she had struggled throughout her career with Irish pupils who were all Maedhbhs and Sadhbhs. Touché! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Mr Red Date: 13 May 15 - 07:24 PM I'm surprised no one has tried to phoneticise Machynlleth But just to get the ball rolling and wake up those who sairad Cymraig Ma* hunth leth (* is a barely voiced, breathy (non-sibilant) c) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,alex s no cookie Date: 13 May 15 - 07:35 PM Barnoldswick=Barnick No -it's BarLick And the inhabitants are Barlickers |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Janie Date: 14 May 15 - 12:04 AM Mr. Red and LadyJean, I'm a native West Virginian, who lived and worked in Morgantown for several years. Even so, I can get my brain and my tongue confused between Monongalia County and Monongahela River and National Forest. Especially since the Monongahela River runs through Monongalia County. As is the case in Illinois, Cairo, WV (Ritchie Co.) is pronounced KAYro. The beautiful valley and ski resort in WV, Canaan Valley, is pronounced can-NAIN. I live in Mebane, NC. Pronounced MEBB-in. Named after a revolutionary war colonel. On NPR (when running thru credits on, I think, Weekend Addition where some one with that last name was or is an associate producer,) and on genealogy websites, some folks in other parts of the country pronounce it MEE-BANE. Hurricane, WV is pronounced HUR-ri-cuhn. As far as I am concerned, and I think any person from the Appalachian mountains or plateau would agree, the correct pronunciation is App-a-LATCH-un or App-a-LATCH-uh. Saying App-a-LAY-shian (or chian) or App-a-LAY-shia is a dead give away that neither you, your parents, nor your grandparents were from there:>) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Dave Hanson Date: 14 May 15 - 02:25 AM Corstorphine in Edinburgh, pronounced, Ker-stof-an. This confuses people who don't know when looking for it. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Richard Mellish Date: 14 May 15 - 03:08 AM Mr Red suggests phoneticising Machynlleth as "Ma* hunth leth (* is a barely voiced, breathy (non-sibilant) c)" The * is plausible, but surely it's only some English who turn the unvoiced Welsh L, written as "LL", into "TH" + voiced L. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: BobL Date: 14 May 15 - 03:42 AM No mention yet of the Cornish fishing village known as "Mowzle" since before anyone in that part of the world could read and write, let alone spell. A cartographer with a sense of humour decided it should be written "Mousehole". |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Ged Fox Date: 14 May 15 - 04:37 AM This game is at least as old as the 1820s when Cobbett complained about the contrast between Hampshire names as pronounced by map-makers and locals - Hurstbourne Tarrant known locally as Uphusband etc. I think Southwick near Hove is Southwick, but Southwick, near Portsmouth, is Suthik (with voiced 'th'.) The neighbouring village of Boarhunt is commonly called Borrunt. The Worthies seem to be worthy in Hampshire, but in West Somerset & North Devon they are usually 'ery.' So Badgery & Pinkery where the map has Badgworthy and Pinkery. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Thompson Date: 14 May 15 - 04:51 AM And simple, normal words in one country may be unknown in another. I've often been asked by Americans how to find the kways, and what this word mean - quay, pronounced key, is a perfectly ordinary word for a dockside on this side of the Atlantic. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Penny S. Date: 14 May 15 - 04:53 AM I would argue with the OP about Burwash. My lot called it Burruhsh - with an abbreviated schwa sound - can't write it. The "ham" like meat, "uhm" with that schwa again confusion is to do with geography. The meaty hams lie in meanders, where the land looks like a pig's backside. The others were once someone's home. In Old English, the first was written "hamm", the second "ham" - I think. It may help visitors to assume that where there's a "th" in the middle (Eltham, Streatham), the "t" belongs to the first part and is not part of a "th" sound. Elt'm, Strett'm. That way you won't get laughed at like prospective MP's or Bob Hope (who came from Eltham). On the other hand, Lewisham is not Lewis'm, it's Lewi-sham. Then there's: Deptford - Detf'd Greenwich - Grenitch Peckham - Peck'm Dulwich - Dullitch Wrotham - Root'm Trottiscliffe - Trosley Shipbourne - Shibburn Meopham - you should be able to work out that the p belongs to the beginning, not an f sound. Mep'm. Eynsford - Aynsf'd And I never got to bottom of Cirencester, which has multiple other versions. Cicester, Cister, Ciceter, Ciren (almost Zoiren) - which seem to have class distinctions. The first three go with an upper accent, the last more rural. I decided, when my parents lived over there, to stick to the full name to avoid problems. A lot of variations are to do with omitting bits of names - economical speech, versions like Jo'burg for Johannesburg. And that habit has been round for ages. It is known that in late Roman Britain, Rochester - Durobrivae - was pronounced Robri, which became Robrichester, and so what it is now. Something similar happened with York, once Eboracum. Back to Will Fly's Sussex, I've a dialect book written by an upper middle class woman with a condescending attitude to those further down in society who tells how the doctor really couldn't understand that the local who wanted him to go to an emergency in I Urstood was referring to High Hurstwood. My grandfather came from Lambrurst (Lamberhurst), and his sister lived in Wodurst (Wadhurst). And there was Crowbruh - Crowborough. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,OldNicKilby Date: 14 May 15 - 07:59 AM Don't forget Penny S that Ightham is I-tum and I think that Shipbourne is Shi-bun 'cause that is how my old Aunts and Uncles and Cousins called it |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 May 15 - 08:10 AM Quay is key in England, but in "Dublin in the rare auld times" it is rhymed with stay. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 May 15 - 08:37 AM I always thought the wiches were idges. Grenidge, I don't think Eboracum evolved into anything. The Vikings named it Jorvik (Yorvik) which slides easily into Yorrik and then York. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Thompson Date: 14 May 15 - 08:44 AM Ah, but then in Dublin the rare oul' times tea was rhymed with tay, sea with say, key with kay - an 18th-century pronunciation that hung on later in Ireland than in England. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 14 May 15 - 10:09 AM There's a tiny hamlet in the East Riding of Yorkshire named Aike. Of course that's pronounced Yakka. To further identify it (it is very small) people will tell you it's just beyond Arram. So its known as Yakka bakka Arram. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Will Fly Date: 14 May 15 - 11:15 AM Bosham in Sussex is pronounced "BOZZ-am", but Cosham in Hampshire, just down the coast, is pronounced "COSH-am". As for Burwash - "Burrush" or "Burrish" - very similar if said quickly! :-) Going back to my Lancashire teens, Great Harwood used to be known colloquially as "Snuffy Harrod"... ... and folks from "Westhoughton" in Lancashire were known as "Hofners" - and sometimes "Cow-yeds". The latter because a farmer in Westhoughton had a cow whose head got stuck in a gate. The gate was worth more than the cow, so he cut the cow's head off to free it. By, we had a reet gradely do in them days! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Tattie Bogle Date: 14 May 15 - 12:10 PM I was brought up in Suffolk, where o sounds get turned into oo. We lived near Stoomaaak't. (Stowmarket). Felixstowe was something like Filixstoo. Also, Suffolk people don't do anything with a "yoo" sound in it such as tube (tyoob): they would say toob. They couldn't pronounce our son's name, Ewan - Ooan to them Yooan to us! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: The Sandman Date: 14 May 15 - 12:38 PM towcester is toaster, wymondham is windham, uttoxeter is utoxiter, southwell is not south well but suthall. anyone that calls it south well is some posh jockey, like that stupid hayley turner, everyone in nottinghamshire when i lived there called it suthall, apart from that silly jockey. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Michael Date: 14 May 15 - 12:48 PM Where I hail from in Derbyshire,Bolsover: posh = Bolzover, proper = Bo'zer Pleasley= Plezley and Houghton = Hufton or Huf'n Whaley = Warley Tideswell = Tidser, Ashover = Asher. And Bolsover has Castle Estate,built as Council and NCB houses in the 50's and known as 'Wimps' as it was built by George Wimpey Mike |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Guest: Wordless Woman Date: 14 May 15 - 02:15 PM Contrary to what some (ahem) comedians would have you think, New Jersey is not pronounced New Joisey. However, some longtime residents across the river in Philadelphia pronounce their home town Fluffya. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: wysiwyg Date: 14 May 15 - 03:02 PM Of course all of the above 'examples' may be a conspiracy to get tourists to out ourselves by using Mudcat pronunciation! ;-) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Anne Lister Date: 14 May 15 - 06:04 PM Welsh pronunciation could be (and is) the subject of a book rather than a post on a thread, but the place names are frequently pronounced in ways you wouldn't expect unless you were local. Near here we have Blaenavon, for example, which should be Bl-eye-navon but which is normally Bluhnavon for locals. Similar things happen to Caerphilly (Kuhfilly instead of K-eye-rfilly ...and for those who can pronounce the ll in Welsh please note the Welsh spelling of the town name puts a single l in there, so no need to show off!) and Caerleon (Kuhlee-on instead of K-eye-rleeon). But my personal favourite is the village of Fleur-de-Lys which is normally known simply as "Flower". Another village is Beddau, which should be Beth-eye with a hard "th" but which is generally known as "Baythuh". When I lived in London (in Wapping, pronounced of course Woppping and for all lovers of Burger King the real home of the Whopper ... as convicted pirates were hanged and then left on Wapping Old Stairs for three tides of the Thames to wash over the corpse and make it swell up to a whopping size ..or so we were told) I knew friends who delighted in attempting to convince tourists of the wrong pronunciations. So that Keyappsiddee was Cheapside, for example, instead of the way you might normally pronounce those two words separately and Vozeall was Vauxhall (sorry - Voxhall is how it's normally said). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Tattie Bogle Date: 15 May 15 - 05:29 AM Michael Marra used to joke about the mis-pronunciation of Dundee United's football ground at Tannadice. He'd heard someone (Italian?) ask for Tannadeechay! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Jack Campin Date: 15 May 15 - 05:44 AM Anstruther = AIN-stur I tried that when I went there once and they looked at me like I was from Mars. Hawick = Hike Not quite. I'm not too sure how to write it, though; more like "HOY-ick", with the second syllable vowel almost inaudible. Newtongrange = NITT-in People from other villages in Midlothian call it Nitten. I live there, and locally it's nearly always "Newtongrange", exactly as spelt. Corstorphine in Edinburgh, pronounced, Ker-stof-an It's kor-STORE-fin, the second r is clearly pronounced. They named a suburb of Dunedin in New Zealand after it. The locals there call it "CORE-ster-fine". |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Desi C Date: 15 May 15 - 05:53 AM Place just north of Wolverhampton, BREWOOD, I used to pronounce BRIE WOOD, until I found it was simply pronounced BROOD Bit like when first came to England, I though Leicester was pronounced LIE SESSTER |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: CupOfTea Date: 15 May 15 - 09:46 AM My favorite Ohio place name peculiarities are: A-thens, downstate home of Ohio University sounding nothing like Greek and Lima, pronounced like lima beans, not Lima, Peru. I'm fascinated by the vernacular pronounciations of English place-names as most of the streets in my suburb are distinctly English (Scarborough, Essex, Oxford, Dartmoor, Canterbury, etc) and I wonder how much that was part responsible for my own Anglophile tendencies. Joanne in Cleveland Heights |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Jack Campin Date: 15 May 15 - 09:52 AM Lima, pronounced like lima beans, not Lima, Peru. I'm not quite sure what lima beans are, but I've seen the word in print many times and always assumed it was pronounced lee-ma, like the capital of Peru. The OED agrees with me and says the name of the bean is derived from the name of the city. Where are you, and how widepread is whatever different pronunciation you use? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: bubblyrat Date: 15 May 15 - 05:01 PM Growing up in West Sussex,I went to primary school in Easebourne , pronounced "Ezzbourne ". Near Henley -on-Thames ,where I was born, is a village called Pishill , but known locally as Pishle , not, sadly, Piss Hill. In Somereset ,near Yeovilton, lies Tintinhull, pronounced "Tintnull"; sadly, Herge had no say in the matter. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Janie Date: 15 May 15 - 06:07 PM CupofTea is in Ohio, USA, and as she said, she lives near Cleveland, up on or near Lake Erie. The name of town in Ohio spelled Lima is pronounce LIE-ma. In the UK, all lima beans may perhaps be referred to as butter beans. Not sure. In the USA, only some varieties of lima beans are called butter beans, or possibly broad beans. In the southern USA, the big, tougher varieties that are sold as dry beans as well as canned beans, and occasionally frozen, are called butter beans. They are a pale greenish tan to yellowish tan in color and taste very different from what we call lima beans, which are small, tender, green and not as starchy in taste and texture. In the southern USA, what we call lima beans are never sold dry, may be available fresh, but more likely available frozen, occasionally canned. In the USA, the differences in regional accents result in some variation, but the differences in accents have to do almost entirely with regional differences in how vowels are sounded, or whether or not consonants get dropped or softened at the end of a word. (goin' vs going, for example.) A long vowel spoken by a person from New England will sound different from a long vowel spoken by a southerner, but both are recognized as the long vowel sound for that region, as another example. Regardless of what a dictionary may say, in the USA, the local regional pronunciation regarding the accented syllable, and whether it is a short or long vowel, is generally considered the correct pronunciation of the place name, regardless of what the dictionary says. So, regardless of where one is from, to pronounce Lima, Ohio the same as Lima, Peru, would be a pronunciation, albeit understandable and forgivable the first few times one pronounced it incorrectly after being corrected. Ditto places like the place I mentioned upstream, Canaan Valley, WV. To pronounce it the same way one pronounces the biblical referenced place after which it is named, is an incorrect pronunciation. The USA is full of such place names. There is a quite populated unincorporated area near me named Bahama. When I moved here many years ago, I pronounced it the same as I pronounce the Bahamas (as in the southern Atlantic islands.) Wrong, wrong, wrong. Bahama, NC is pronounced ba-HAY ma. Founded circa 1750, it's name was made from three prominent families who settled there, taking the first two letters of each of their surnames. (Ba)ll, (HA)rris, and (Ma)ngum. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Tangledwood Date: 15 May 15 - 07:18 PM There is an area north of Brisbane which was populated by soldier-settlers after WW1. Most of the districts have French names, one giving its name to the highway. I wonder how French speakers feel about D'aguilar being pronounced Dee-ag-you-lah. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 May 15 - 08:04 PM Launceston in Cornwall is pronounced Lanson, contrary to what some others here have said. Also in Kernow we have Polzeath ("Polzeth") and St Teath ("St Teth"). My house overlooks Widemouth Bay ("Widmuth"). A bit further down there's Bosinney ("BosINNey"). Just outside Bude there's Poughill ("Poffle"). You could go for a nice walk up Kernow's second highest bill, Rough Tor ("Rowter"). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: PHJim Date: 15 May 15 - 10:24 PM "Toronto" is more often pronounced "Trawna" and one of the major east west avenues "Eglinton" is almost always pronounced EglinGton". A village between Oshawa and Bowmanville in Southern Ontario is called "Courtice", but is pronounced as "Curtis". |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST, topsie Date: 16 May 15 - 11:58 AM Gillingham in Kent - Jillingham Gillingham in Dorset - Guillingham Whenever I've been to Wiveliscombe it was pronounced Wivel-ISScombe (or just Wivvey), none of that Wivelscum business, which reminds me of the American dipplemat (diplomat). And then there is Congresbury in North Somerset, pronounced Congsbury, not the mealy-mouthed Coomsbury you get from elderly aunts. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 May 15 - 03:33 PM Surprised nobody has so far mentioned Arkansas -- or did I miss it? ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Mark Ross Date: 16 May 15 - 06:23 PM When I lived in Wichita Kansas I found that the river running through town was pronounced R-Kansas, none of the locals called it the ArkanSAW River. Mark Ross |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Fred Maslan Date: 16 May 15 - 07:31 PM Newly arrived reporters on TV or Radio in Washington State were given news reports from Sequim or Puyallup. Sequim pronounced skwim and Puyallup pronounced pyoo-AL-up. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Joe Offer Date: 16 May 15 - 11:34 PM Two of my favorite Atlantic Coast towns are Beaufort, South Carolina [BEW-fert]; and Beaufort, North Carolina [BOH-fert]. I guess the South Carolina town is a bit prettier, but the North Carolina town is gateway to the spectacular Cape Lookout National Seashore. Cape Lookout has an Argyle-patterned lighthouse, dontchaknow.... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 May 15 - 01:23 AM And the English university city near which I live, and its Mass namesake, of course cannot be pronounced as they are by any possible rule of spelling -- 'came-bridge', forsooth; with the long 'a' preceding, not one, not two, but THREE whole consonants... ≈M≈ ...(unless Child #2 is going to be about a came-brick shirt instead) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Mr Red Date: 17 May 15 - 04:41 AM near Dursley (which ex-wifey pronounced Durzle) there is an area called Cam (pronounced Cam), and just to confuse down the road where the river runs is Cambridge (came bridge)! Eynsham near Oxford (pronounced Oxford!) is pronounced En-sham And as for Welsh pronunciations - Gog Gymraig (or is that Cymraig Gog?) would pronounce with accents that can remind you of a Teutonic Tinge, whereas in South Wales (look-see) it is a bit more to the lyrical end of the spectrum. I have heard Cymraigophones pronounce Caerphilly and Caerleon distinctly Cai-r-lee-on etc. I know not whence the pronouncers originated. And my Aunt married a Knighton-ite (pronounced neye ton) which is almost as English as Monmouth which I was assured by a lass there was pronounced Munmuth (two short close syllables) and she insisted they didn't say "look you" it was "look see" So the Machynlleth interpretation comes from Knighton. Presteign? Press-teen and Penmaenmawr Pen-mine-mou-er (ish) where there was a boot maker in the 20's. Uncle had a shoeshop. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: The Sandman Date: 17 May 15 - 04:56 AM one house wher i used to live is wunnus. billy anthonys bottom is billy antonis bodum, if anyone wishes to discuss billy anthonys bottom or argue the toss on the correct prononunciation of this amusing name, carry on billy anthonys bottom/ theydon bois, locals call it theydon boys. posh people call it theydon bwa |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Mr Red Date: 17 May 15 - 05:09 AM I remember trying to direct an Italian driver (towing) with two squabbling kids in the back, how to get to Carl-is-lee, I sent him on another circuit of Lancaster inner ring road. He had come off the M6 too soon, his map must have been out of date. And I was amused by his pronunciation and did not think fast enough. Sorry mateo. Carlisle (car-liel). I have heard Uttoxeter referred to as Uchester - being a Staffordshire man meself, but not from that end of the county. Lilleshal - lillyshawl Stroud (as in proud) in Gloucesterhsire (Glostersheer) and Stroud (Strood) in Kent (as in bent) Shelsley Beauchamp (shellslee beechum) Powick (po-ick) Tewkesbury - (chooks-burree - emphasised as "chuck" if you are from Evesham (eevs-sham not evee-sham)) Tweeksburg as one American had it, but then it gives me permission to use that pronunciation regularly. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Ged Fox Date: 17 May 15 - 05:24 AM There was an old fellow from Cosham Who took out his false teeth to wash'em etc. But those who find that limerick vulgar would tend to call the place Coss'm, as they went off to their yachts at Bozz'm. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 17 May 15 - 06:24 AM Teignmouth in Devon is commonly pronounced as Tinmuth,the river Teign is the Teen. Yealmpton also in Devon is Yamtun,the river Yealm is usually pronounced as Yelm rarely as Yam. Tideford in Cornwall used to be pronounced as Tiddyfurd as it was a fording place on the river Tiddy,in recent times the incomers have taken to calling it Tide Ford and the change has taken root. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 May 15 - 11:56 AM My parents were married at Poughill Steve. They thought of naming our Hertfordshire house that, but decided no-one would ever know how to say it. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST, topsie Date: 17 May 15 - 03:08 PM Avon (as in River Avon and Avon Gorge) is pronounced Av'n. Avonn is just for Avon ladies and their wares. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Penny S. Date: 17 May 15 - 05:35 PM OldNicKilby - I bow to your orthography of Shipbourne - mine was only an attempt at something with the r not very much apparent at all. Steve Gardam, I was told about Eboracum by a member of the English Place Names Society who had studied under John Dodgson, the doyen of such matters. I couldn't remember the exact details, but it, I now think, involved the dropping of the ending, not as far as the present bishopric, but as far as Eborac. This was interpreted and mangled by the Anglian settlers as Eoforwic, or boar-place, which would have given an initial Y sound, with the central r and the final c sound, which was subsequently re-interpreted and mangled by the Vikings who formed Jorvik, which, as you say, slides into modern York. The intermediate forms exist in writing. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York Can't get into the clickymaker and have forgotten how to do it manually. And I can't feel much difference in the mouth between idge and itch, just in the voicing, and what I hear around Greenwich is less voiced. It may even be the difference between what men say and women say. Will, my mind passed over Bozzum, and decided to leave it to someone else. Mr Red, Strood, Kent, is spelled Strood, so no problem. And I've remembered the place in Sussex signed as Terrible Down, with a tale of the cutting down of brave Saxons by the Normans in 1066, but which is said Turbledown, and etymologically can be shown to originate from a four letter word beginning with t and rhyming with word. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 18 May 15 - 12:38 AM Strange the River Av'n and the Gorge got a mention, though not the port of Av'nmouf... :-) Just across the river is the town of Port'zed, as the locals used to call it prior to the popularity of a certain pop band who seem to have influenced the townfolk's pronunciation to something closer to the way it is spelled. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST, topsie Date: 18 May 15 - 04:24 AM Guest, I didn't include Avonmouth because I have not (yet) heard it pronounced as AvONmouth. You may not have been so lucky. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Mr Red Date: 18 May 15 - 04:30 AM Penny S consider favouritizing (sic) one of these web pages, devized specifically for fancy text on Mudcat, and for 'Catters generally. Mr Red's HTML fancy text generator & Mr Red's HTML fancy symbol generator (hash codes) Stroud - I should have qualified it - on the phone I am always having to qualify it as Gloucestershire not Kent - what is that saying about peoples' expectations in the Sarf East, innit? And Streetmap offers 4 towns around the UK - I never look at the others. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,henryp Date: 18 May 15 - 10:46 AM Lomeshaye in Burnley is known locally as ... Lummersher. We've just returned from Flora Day in Helston, Cornwall. We stayed in Porthallow, the halfway point on the South West Coastal Path. Locally, it's called Pralla. And outside Whitby we had a cottage in Aislaby, pronounced Aiselby. It's not far from Ruswarp, pronounced Russup. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Rapparee Date: 18 May 15 - 10:57 AM In the US there is also: VerSAILS (Illinois, Indiana) San JOSIE (Illinois) AYEthins (Illinois) Nu YAWK (New York) Ballimore (Maryland) WARshington (DC) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: thnidu Date: 18 May 15 - 12:17 PM Someone way upthread wrote «It's not "MISS-ur-ee" but "MISS-ur-ah."» But it's neither of those. It's "miz-OOR-uh" /mɨˈzʊrə/ locally, and often "miz-OOR-ee" /mɨˈzʊri/ elsewhere. Rapparee, you just barely beat me to it, but I somewhat disagree. AFAIK, Baltimore, Maryland is locally "BALLmer" /ˈbɔlmɚ/ — just two syllables) — in, I think, "MERRilind" /ˈmɛrəlɨnd/. And New York, where I grew up, is "noo YAWK" /nuˈjɔk/ if you're R-less*, but I'm R-ful* (that's what my sister always tells me) and "noo YORK" /nuˈjɔɹk/ is also OK. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,George Frampton Date: 18 May 15 - 03:50 PM Disagree with one of the above correspondents. Leigh near Tonbridge is definitely pronounce 'Lye' Mereworth is merryworth Alan Major once claimed that anything ending in -den is stressed, but after 28 years of life in Marden, anyone calling it Mar-DEN would get an odd look. Definitely MAR-don. The _DEN rule seems only to apply to HorsmonDEN, Spelmon-DEN and CowDEN, but not FRITTEN-den. Mundy Bois near Pluckley, I assume to be Mundy BOYS. Theydon Bois?? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Anne Lister Date: 18 May 15 - 05:10 PM Mr Red, it is indubitably the case that your Welsh-familiar or speaking friends should have pronounced Caerphilly and Caerleon the way you suggest. It is also indubitably the case that, for the most part, if you pronounce the towns that way to most local inhabitants they will think you are a tourist or, at best, a Welsh speaker or learner. I grew up on a street called Bryngwyn Road (easy enough as long as you don't panic at the lack of English vowels), near a street called Rhydepenau ..locally always Reeduhpinner, correctly somewhat different. These days, living as we do in Monmouthshire (not normally pronounced Munmuth although I suppose some people might) we try to make educated guesses as to whether it's the Cluther or the Cleyether gorge (it's written Clytha and strictly speaking should be Clutha) and I've learnt by working there that Mamhilad (should be Mamhillad) is in fact Mameyelad. But again, if I'm talking to Welsh speakers or fellow learners, I know to follow the rule book. My late father-in-law had no truck with any suggestion of Welsh pronunciation, however, despite being married to someone with Welsh speaking family, and insisted it was Landudno in North Wales and, I believe, even Lanelly (instead of LLaneLLi, where LL makes the sound it's very hard to transliterate). However, to digress from place names, my niece went to Welsh medium school (and is in the process of doing her A levels). Her early writing efforts all bore the traces of being taught in Welsh. "Jac and the binstoc. Jac met a jaeant and it was not fe... bwm bwm went the paerats' guns." |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: LadyJean Date: 18 May 15 - 06:13 PM Mr. Red, I hope your grandfather never had dealings with mine. My paternal grandfather was a district attorney and then a judge. Things were a little lively in the mills in those days. The one and only time I was ever taken to task for not cursing, I was talking about Henry Clay Frick, Andrew Carnegie's business partner. Carnegie,in this part of the world, is pronounced carn egg ee. There is a nice little town named after him a little north of here. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Penny S. Date: 18 May 15 - 07:12 PM Mr Red, now you mention it, I did go through a confused phase re Stroud/Strood when my sister moved to Eastcombe and my parents followed as far as Cirencester. It was as if my brain could only hold one pronounciation at a time, and was primarily working only on consonants. The usual error was to call Strood, which I seldom referred to, though it was quite close, by the Gloucestershire pronounciation. Odd. Anyone got the pronounciation of Hurstmonceaux? I usually say Hurstmonsue (though the H is not much aspirated, and attempting to be dropped, and the o is more of a schwa). My mother was put out by someone who insisted the correct local version was 'urstmunzez, which she had never heard anyone say. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Musket Date: 19 May 15 - 04:03 AM A village down by where I come from is called Houghton. How ton? No. hor ton? No. Huffun. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST,henryp Date: 19 May 15 - 08:59 AM There are three different Claughtons in the North West; Claughton, near Lancaster, pronounced /ˈklæftən/, Clafton Claughton, north of Preston, pronounced /ˈklaɪtən/, Clyeton and Claughton, on the Wirral, pronounced /ˈklɔːtən/, Clawton. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: Jack Campin Date: 19 May 15 - 09:35 AM Most people outside Australia seems to pronounce its capital as "CAN-bur-a". In Sydney they say "can-BER-a" (middle vowel as in "them"), and I think I've heard that from someone who was actually from there. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: GUEST Date: 19 May 15 - 09:46 AM There's a whole page on en.Wikipedia on the Sussex dialect and how it has influenced English spoken in New England. Alceston - Ahson (though I've heard Anson) Selmeston - Semson etc Ardingly - ends with an eye (as does chimney) - then there's Dittisham - Ditsum Names in Norman French can be quite an eye-opener or should I say an ear-opener to French-speakers, but do they reflect the original Norman pronunciation? (Jersey, for example, in Norman French is Jerri) Beaulieu - Bewley Beauchamp - Beecham. I've also heard that during World War Two, American troops (perhaps from the South?) stationed in parts of East Anglia found that their drawl fitted in very well with the local accent. Edinburgh is definitely Embrra. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Local place names - local pronunciation From: LadyJean Date: 19 May 15 - 11:24 PM Oh, Natchez Street on Mt. Washington is pronounced Nat Cheese street. Natchez is, normally, pronounced nat chez. |
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