BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes

Subject: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 May 15 - 08:37 AM

I'm up in Castleton in the Derbyshire Peaks (UK) at the moment - having a bit of a break - and, naturally, I had to go into at least one of the limestone caverns clustered around the village. Closest to me is the Peak Cavern, known for hundreds of years as "The Devils Arse" because of the loud farting noise it makes as floodwater recedes from the cavern. I may go to the Treak Cavern this afternoon, home of the world's only deposit of the beautiful BlueJohn stone - or I may bugger up my hips and climb up to Peveril Castle (did Mam Tor in 45mph winds yesterday) - or I may just stay here in the pub with a pint of bitter.

Over the years I've been lowered into Gaping Ghyll in the Yorkshire Dales, been taken by boat through Le Gouffre de Padirac in the Dordogne, and by boar through the cave system in Postojna, Croatia. All fascinating - and all guaranteed to make me avoid potholing like the devil!

I'd be curious to know what other cave systems 'Catters have visited.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 15 - 08:42 AM

I haven't been, but my very favourite cheese is Wookey Hole cave-aged cheddar.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 15 - 08:42 AM

Boho caves in Fermanagh.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 May 15 - 08:51 AM

and by boar through the cave system in Postojna, Croatia

Well, that would have been a novel trip - disappointingly, the typo should read "boat"!

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: GUEST,GUEST, Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 May 15 - 08:51 AM

Will Fly, you told us, in part:

I've been *** by boar through the cave system in Postojna, Croatia.

What kind of a saddle did you/they put on the boar for that excursion?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 May 15 - 09:04 AM

Good one, Dave - but read the post preceding yours... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 15 - 09:20 AM

Not far from here is a lake, Doolough (Dark Lake) - lots of tales connected to it.
One of the origin tales tells of a Travelling woman begging for water in the area and, when she is refused, squats down in a secluded hollow and begins to piss, and piss, and piss, and piss...... and is at it for so long that eventually Doolough is created, one mile and a half long.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 15 - 09:45 AM

There was a cave near my home town called "Burton Cave" because it was just outside the hamlet of Burton (creative, huh?). The path to it was along the edge of a cliff, about 50 or so feet above the creek below; it led to a wider space outside the cave.

Being young and foolish, or at least foolish, we explored inside the cave many times. We used flashlights and hat-mounted carbide lamps and on one notable occasion, a railroad flare. Don't use the last; railroad flares up out a lot of sulfurous and other gases!!

The last I knew someone had dynamited the path to the cave so that young people wouldn't fall off and hurt themselves. Now, I guess, the young people have to climb the cliff face to get to the cave.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 15 - 10:05 AM

My only 'real' pothole was quite close to there - P8 or 'Jackpot'. A wet cave but very easy if led by someone who knows what they are doing. Done loads in Kingsdale in Yorkshire. Easiest is Yordas cave, an ex-showcave easily accessed by mere mortals with bright lights. Tends to flood in heavy rains but there is no danger as it is obvious from the outset whether it is flooded or not. Kigsdale master system is phenomenal. Easy entrance is valley entrance if you can find it under the bin lid :-) Only been in Valley entrance and turned back after a couple of hundred metres because we knew there was a pitch we could not do. Again, you need wet gear.

Show caves are abundant near us. Ingleborough, White Scar and Stump Cross to name but 3. All very impressive. Ingleborough cave was my favourite but probably because it has the nicest approach (via Clapham).

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 15 - 10:08 AM

BTW - On my last visit to the 'Arse' I was talking to the owner (or manager - not sure) and he was offering extended guided trips which would take you almost as far as P8! All walking and no real danger he said. Just need the right gear and enough money/people to get him to run a special trip.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 May 15 - 10:19 AM

No one has asked before, but there have been a few:

In Kentucky I worked in the Mammoth Cave area for a couple of years as an Interpretive Naturalist. I led tours through Diamond Caverns, a formation cave in the Mammoth System, and of course I visited the National Park and toured portions of the dry Mammoth Cave itself. I was also in a select group that got to tour Crystal Caverns, Floyd Collin's old cave (the one he never completely got away from - I think the "Ballad of Floyd Collins" is in the DT here).

I toured Lehman Cave in Nevada, Caverns of Sonora in Texas (near Iraan and Sonora, Texas, with fabulous formations and helectites), Carlsbad Caverns (NM/TX), Howe Cavern in upstate New York, and the very cleverly designed man-made cave at the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum. I was quite impressed at all of the features they got right in it.

As a kid I visited deserted mines (a popular activity at summer camp - old horizontal mines that are in hard rock) and numerous caves with no names while up climbing in various places - the Cascade and Olympic Mountains in Washington and the Ajo Mountains in Arizona (Organ Pipe Cactus Natl Monument), in particular.

I seem to have a fondness for caves! I haven't been spelunking, but mostly for lack of opportunity.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 May 15 - 12:48 PM

Ever been to Bull Pot, near Ingleborough, Dave?

Many years ago, a mate of mine and myself motorbiked up part of Ingleborough anf went walking. Our walk took us past Bull Pot, where a number of potholers were in conference. They asked us if were mobile, i.e. had transport - this was the days well before mobile phones - because one of their number had broken a leg in the pot.

We backtracked to the bike as fast as possible, got on the bike and roared off to the police station in Ingleborough - who contacted the rescue people.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: JennieG
Date: 21 May 15 - 05:49 PM

Several years ago Himself and I spent a weekend at Jenolan Caves west of Sydney, Oz, and also visiting was a school band who were there for a training camp. At night we went on a cave tour - it's dark in the caves, so there's no difference if you tour during the day or at night - and one of the music teachers came on our tour. She asked the guide's permission to play her flute in the caves, permission was given, so our group had a beautiful impromptu concert! The cave tour ends at a big open cave called The Devil's Coach House (Old Nick seems to feature in caves, doesn't he?)and our flautist played there, too.

Jenolan Caves

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 15 - 02:39 AM

Hmmm - Sorry Will, I did respond to your question but it seems to have disappeared. Anyway - I can only say 'probably'. Been all over there but can't place it. A Google search to jog my memory only resulted in a litany of caving accidents there :-( Dangerous place!

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 22 May 15 - 02:54 AM

England:
Gough's cave in Cheddar (for some reason my father always took us to Gough's, never to Cox's)
Wookey Hole on a school trip
brief forays into smaller non-commercial caves in Somerset
Blue John cave, Castleton (I gather it is called Treak Cavern)

France:
Padirac (no boars though)
Pech Merle

Spain:
Altamira

Do we count man-made excavations such as smugglers' caves in Hastings and the headquarters of the Hellfire Club in West Wycombe?

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 15 - 03:06 AM

Treak Cliff cavern does have Blue John but there is a separate cave called Blue John Cavern or Blue John Mines. Along with the Speedwell cavern (done by boat) and the afore mentioned Peak Cavern they make up the 4 show caves in Castleton. There are dozens of others that link to the same system and great inroads were made not too long ago by those hardiest of all potholers - The explorers and blasters - Linking Titan Cave and, I think, Speedwell.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 15 - 09:46 AM

Yes, Stilly, I been in some of those. Also "Mark Twain's Cave" in Hannibal, MO. I even saw "Tom + Becky" done in candlesmoke on the wall, but I suspect it was a later addition. There are portions that haven't been completely explored (I understand that it continues under the Mississippi to the Illinois shore) and those and others are blocked off...something about holes and cliffs.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 15 - 11:01 AM

I went to Hannibal on my last visit to the States and no-one told me about the cave! It was a cold wet day so it would have been ideal for being indoors. Found a very nice French restaurant instead though :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 22 May 15 - 11:55 AM

When I did my teacher training year in 1979, we did a field trip in the Yorkshire Dales. We were taken on the traditional late night trip through Long Churn. We set off after a night in the pub. I wouldn't consider doing it now after a new night drinking!

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: mayomick
Date: 22 May 15 - 12:30 PM

This young lady was swept into the Worm's Hole when visiting the Aran Islands last month - and she lived to tell the tale on Irish TV news. All caught on cam of course . Student recalls dramatic Aran Islands rescue:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0415/694383-rescue/

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Bert
Date: 22 May 15 - 07:24 PM

Not a cave but don't forget The Devil's Punch Bowl, near Hindhead, Surrey.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:33 AM

I come originally from Creswell near Worksop. We have a series of caves called Creswell Crags, and although they are blocked and locked now, with archeological digs and a visitors centre, we used to play in them as kids.

I assume the cave paintings they rant over are real ones, and not our "Up the Owls" graffiti that I presume we may have done through boredom....

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:47 AM

I am interested in Will Fly's assertion that Blue John can only be found in Treak cave. I was in Castleton last year and chatted with a woman who really seemed to know her stuff and she gave me the impression that there are several caves where Blue John has been found although all known deposits are close to exhaustion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Musket
Date: 23 May 15 - 10:55 AM

I was always led to believe that Treak Hill Cavern was the only commercially viable source many years ago. Blue John has been, to my knowledge, excavated when quarrying for other minerals around Hope, not too far away.

We used to go there on school trips when I was a nipper. Happy memories of the Blue John stuff. These days, I merely see the signs when going to Edale walking.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 May 15 - 02:19 PM

I came across a news item today saying that Wookey Hole is to be extended by blasting through 200 feet of rock to a large cavern currently only accessible by swimming through an underwater passage using diving gear - this extension seems to me to be cheating (as well as rather dangerous).

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 15 - 05:17 PM

The whole cave system under Castleton is connected so any of the caves can claim they have Blue John.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 15 - 05:01 AM

...but Treak Cliff Cavern and Blue John Cavern are the best known mines. Interesting articles on the history and geology on the Blue John Caverns web site. Random memory came back to me. Somewhere, probably in a cavern guide, I read that blue john was a corruption of the French bleu jaune meaning blue/yellow. Anyone know if that is true?

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 15 - 05:11 AM

The colour translation is certainly what I recall being told.

I have a blue john set of cufflinks. Presumably an ex partner of years ago still has a blue john pendant.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 May 15 - 05:34 AM

The information about the Treak Cavern and bluejohn deposits was given to me by the guide who showed me round the Peak Cavern (Devil's Arse). There are still interconnections being discovered between the various caverns. Just checked on my original post and realised I should have said that the Treak Cavern was the only bluejohn deposit being mined at the moment - and that in limited quantities. Most of the caverns were lead mines - Speedwell being a case in point - and the Arse was not mined but used as a commercial ropewalk for hundreds of years. The rope produced was used in the lead mines.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 25 May 15 - 05:36 AM

I went down the Blue John Mines on trips from Manchester when I was in the Cubs. Train to Edale and then walk over Man Tor. Great days!

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 15 - 01:04 PM

I did Mam Tor last week - 40mph winds at the top would have blown me over without my ghillie (blackthorn walking staff) for support! Got to the top and it rained as well. I was glad to get down. Fifty years ago it wouldn;t have phased me a bit, but I'm feeling my threescore years and ten.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 15 - 04:03 AM

I went to the top of Mam Tor in my suit, shirt and tie one fine summers evening on my way back from a meeting in Sheffield! Only had to do a short walk as I parked up at Mam Nick but it certainly confused some people :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Fossil
Date: 27 May 15 - 01:31 AM

The Grottes de Han are a limestone cave system - very impressive too - in Belgium. Down in the Ardennes, an easy drive from Brussels and well worth a visit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 15 - 08:51 AM

Just remembered another amount of consternation concerned I caused, going back to Caves. I mentioned Yordas cave before and how it is easy to get in. A group of us, armed with bike lamps, candles and all manner of inappropriate lighting had a walk into it one dry day. There is a very impressive waterfall at the end of the cave and as we were viewing it, a mag ladder was dropped down and some proper cavers climbed down. The leaders of the pothole route obviously knew how we had got there but some not in the know were astounded to see a group of scruffs with bike lamps milling about with cans of Guinness and roll-ups. To crown it all someone else came in with a little Jack Russell terrier which was running around wanting to be petted by the cavers :-) I said to one bloke, who was stood there slack-jawed, "Glad you came in. We have been here a week and we are running out of Guinness. How do we get out?" At that point one of the leaders cracked up and gave the game away.

Eeeeeh. Them were the days...

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 May 15 - 01:23 AM

There is a spelunking group allowed to explore in Mammoth Cave NP in the name of research, but the rangers there told me that it was an openly known secret that they took a lot of artifacts out of the cave. There are some pretty astonishing stories about the discoveries as new sections of the cave were discovered and tunnels found that connected with other named caves.

In 1925 Floyd Collins was trapped in a very narrow tunnel when he died - it turned out his foot was trapped by a stone the size of a tissue box, but no one could get behind him to let him loose. He died after two weeks stuck in that tunnel. His body was embalmed and his coffin was left in place in Crystal Cave, that his family owned. Other cave owners in the area were envious of the popularity of his cave after his death, and one night someone broke into the cave, broke open the casket and stole the body. It was thrown off of a cliff and supposed to land in the Green River, but instead lodged in a tree. Some time later the body was found and put back in the casket. I kid you not. Those Kentucky cave folks were more than a little crazy. A connection was eventually found between Crystal Cave and Mammoth proper. There's a book about it, I can't think of the name now, but you can probably read most of the story in pieces on Wikipedia and other sites.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:08 AM

On the subject of Peak Cavern, mentioned above, let us not forget Neil Moss

A very 'Big Story' at the time, I remember it well.
RIP, Neil.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 28 May 15 - 03:45 AM

Ah yes, Neil Moss. It was interesting to see how much rags like the Daily Mail suddenly knew all about the Peak Cavern system with detailed diagrams of passages that to this day have never been discovered. In particular I seem to remember that they proclaimed that Moss was going to be rescued from passages underneath where he was trapped!

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:12 AM

Thanks for that, Backwoodsman - I'd never heard this story before. Fascinating and tragic at the same time. Poor lad.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:18 AM

Two brilliant links, SRS and BWM. Thanks. Brave people those cave explorers. Far beyond my experience of caves!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 15 - 07:58 AM

Thanks Dave - I'd been in the 'tourist' bit of Peak Cavern as a child, before the Neil Moss tragedy, and I've been in the a number of times since. The feeling of sadness hits me every time.

And, as a general comment, can we ditch the 'spelunking' stuff please? It's 'caving'.
'Spelunking' sounds like a particularly messy sexual game. 😜

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 May 15 - 12:37 PM

But the activity is called spelunking. If you want to visualize wild cave sex any time you encounter it, that is of course your privilege. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 15 - 12:56 PM

Maybe spelunking in the USA, SRS, but it's Caving in the UK (or it was back in the '70s when I was tempted to take part). Never heard of spelunking, I had to Google it (with trepidation, I might add!).

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 15 - 01:33 PM

More accurately you are caving if the passages are more or less horizontal and potholing if they are more or less vertical. Spelunking is a term more often used in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: Weasel
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:56 PM

Gouffre de Padirac
Orgnac Aven
Grottes de Queroy
Grottes de Bernac
Several other caves in the Dordogne region whose names escape me.

Only caves with guides I'm afraid.

Also the recreated caves of Lascaux which I didn't fancy one little bit but with which I was mightily impressed.

Weasel

Subject: RE: BS: The Devils Arse and other big holes
From: HuwG
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:39 PM

I know Castleton fairly well and often drive through there and up Winnats Pass on the way from work near Sheffield to sessions in Strines (near Marple) and Whaley Bridge.

However, I have only once or twice been down the various caves there. This seems odd on reflection because almost forty years ago I was a mining student and our class frequently went rummaging through various abandoned mines in the UK; at Dolaucothi or Coniston Coppermines, for example. We never had any serious accidents, although trying to trace contacts between a greyish-blue silty shale and a bluish-grey shaly siltstone along a hanging wall (ceiling) covered in "snottites" was not the most pleasant of activities.