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BS: Cultural genocide

Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM
Musket 13 Jun 15 - 03:52 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 04:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 15 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 06:09 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 07:07 AM
GUEST 13 Jun 15 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 08:31 AM
Greg F. 13 Jun 15 - 08:55 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 08:56 AM
GUEST 13 Jun 15 - 09:03 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Jun 15 - 09:23 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 09:24 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 11:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 12:26 PM
Musket 13 Jun 15 - 12:40 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 01:06 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 15 - 01:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 01:43 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 02:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 02:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 02:39 PM
Musket 13 Jun 15 - 03:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 03:41 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 03:54 PM
Jeri 13 Jun 15 - 03:58 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 15 - 05:25 PM
Musket 13 Jun 15 - 05:52 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 05:56 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 06:00 PM
Greg F. 13 Jun 15 - 06:24 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 15 - 06:39 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 07:10 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 15 - 07:26 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 07:32 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 15 - 07:34 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 08:09 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 08:19 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 08:20 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jun 15 - 08:30 PM
Greg F. 13 Jun 15 - 08:38 PM
Greg F. 13 Jun 15 - 08:42 PM
Musket 14 Jun 15 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 15 - 04:22 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:31 AM

"Jim SPECIFICALLY claimed that the CURRENT REGIME is "attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians""
I claimed no such thing - I produced clip after clip of others saying it - including 360-odd Holocaust survivors
I have never claimed anything here that has not been backed up by masses of documented and reported evidence from people on the spot - you have produced nothing other than denial - not one scrap.
This has been your totally irrational defence of Israel terrorism from day one.
Your defence of the Sabra/Shatila massacre was "Isreal denies the did it".
Your support for the incursions, last years massacre, the evictions, the use of chemicals, the destruction of hospitals, schools homes... the mass eviction of the Palestinians fromtheir homes to make toom for settlers.... 'It can't be true, because the West does buiness with them'
The world is now faced with the fact that the regime is attempting to make Israel a 'Jews only' State - it transpires that this is has been the case from day one.
The only thing you have produced is a carefully selected sentence from a long article apparently suggesting that this is not the case.
You claim to have produces plenty of evidence - you have produced none, and you have totally ignored everything that has been produced by others.
If you are suggesting that I have invented the claim that Israel is ethnically cleansing the Arabs from Israel - you are lying.
Is that what you are claiming?
If you are claiming that I have invented the statements I have put up, you are lying
Is that what you are claiming?
You blustering friend has suggested that the Holocaust Survivors have no right to be believed because they have not been elected.
Is that what you are claiming, if not, why do you rfuse to respond to what they wrote - isn't their opinion worthy of comment?
If I am a liar, as you have repeatedly claimed
WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT I HAVE LIED, WHAT HAVE I MADE UP?
The subject here is 'cultural genocide - that is what the holcaust Survivors have accused Israel of being part of - it fits in to this discussion as does any cultural genocide taking place in the world today.
The behavior of the Israel today towards the Palestinian Arabs is comparable to that which happened in in the United States, in Australia, in New Zealand..... in any place where the natives have been slaughtered and driven out to make room for settlers.
Jim Carroll

Worth reading

Ethnic cleansing a view from America

From a Jewish historian

Arabs aren't the only ones being persecuted


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

Jim, you have produced no evidence at all that "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

Put up one single quote referring to it (not decades old and not faked).
Identify one Arab citizen who is a refugee in another country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:52 AM

Yes Keith. Winding you up. Winding up each and every person who pursues an agenda of abusing Mudcat to propagate lies and false premise designed to vilify people on the basis of their oppression.

Musket did mention a while back that he hadn't been on Mudcat for a short while for technical reasons. I assume you got it from his local folk club thread? Thinking of going are we? Why ever would you be checking up on him?

If you do go, try not to make it late September. I hope to be visiting it myself then and you might just look at me and think "where have I seen him before?" You are easily recognised by your cloven hoof and labels to differentiate your arse from your elbow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 04:27 AM

You have had your evidence Keith - you have had your quotes - from the origins of the state to the present day
GUILTY AS CHARGED
You have refused to respond to a single one of my questions, which makes you every bit as guilty as Israel
And don't you ever call me, or anybody else on this forum a liar or you will be linked back to this thread each time you do.
You have no sense of decency and no self respect - you are a moral mess
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 04:47 AM

Jim "from the origins of the state" is irrelevant, and the quotes were fake anyway.

Have I misunderstood you?
Sorry if I have, but you did say,

"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

To me, that says that the current regime is attempting to remove Palestinians from the country.

I know they are not so I called you on it.
Is it all just a big misunderstanding?
If so, sorry, and let's move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:19 AM

Sadly, Greg, yes. Can't help it. Bit like picking scabs but more painful!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:09 AM

"is irrelevant, and the quotes were fake anyway."
No they weren't
"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."
Go read what the Israelis are doing
Stop trying to limit yur arguments - this is what you had#ve always done
YOU HAVE ALWAYS ATTEMPTED TO ABSOLVE ISRAEL OF EVER SINGLE CRIME THEY HAVE COMMITTED
Lie down - you're dead
And don't youever call me a liar again
You have lied and twisted your way right through this thrad from the beginning and are still doing so.
The only thing you have not done is to resort to your old stunt of postiing under a false name, and given time and opportunity, I have no doubt you would have done this as well
Go away - or answer the facts you have been presented with
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:25 AM

Keith, you have failed to demonstrate that any of Jim's quotes were fakes. The only one that you wrestled with in detail had a section crossed out, quite possibly by Ben Gurion, that you used to try to denigrate Jim. The quote was no fake. If you can prove that Ben Gurion crossed it out by accident, well and good. You are relying on the word of a Ben Gurion supporter that someone else crossed it out. That does not amount to any sort of victory that entitles you to call anyone a liar, and certainly not to claim that the quote was faked. This is what you always do, Keith. It is a thoroughly disreputable and dishonest tactic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:07 AM

Actual Ben Gurion position on ethnic cleansing
""Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the
[Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that
if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve
their condition and not the contrary." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 159)"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:22 AM

I. Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, claiming that Jews, like any other nation, are entitled to a homeland. History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through a national homeland. Zionism recognizes that 'Jewishness' is defined by shared origin, religion, culture and history.

Israel's Law of Return grants automatic citizenship to Jews, but non-Jews are also eligible to become citizens under naturalization procedures similar to those in other countries. Israel's policy is not unique; many other countries, including Germany, Greece, Ireland and Finland have special categories of people who are entitled to citizenship.

More than one million Muslim and Christian Arabs, Druze, Baha'is, Circassians and other ethnic groups also are represented in Israel's population. The presence in Israel of thousands of Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and India is the best refutation of the calumny against Zionism. In a series of historic airlifts, labeled Operations Moses (1984), Joshua (1985) and Solomon (1991), Israel rescued more than 20,000 members of the ancient Ethiopian Jewish community.

Zionism does not discriminate against anyone. Israel's open and democratic character, and its scrupulous protection of the religious and political rights of Christians and Muslims, rebut the charge of exclusivity. Moreover, anyone—Jew or non-Jew, Israeli, American, or Chinese, black, white, or purple—can be a Zionist.

II. Jews have had a presence in the land of Israel for over 3,000 years. Most Jews were exiled from the area due to wars, and were spread out across Europe and North Africa and the Middle East. Jews began immigrating in large numbers back to the land of Israel in the 1800s and 1900s, legally purchasing land building communities. Before WWI, this land was under the control of the Ottoman Empire. With the fall of the Ottomans, the "Mandate of Palestine," which includes the land known by the Jewish people as the land of Israel was under the control of the British Empire. There was no Palestinian state, although there were Arabs who lived in the area at the same time. Both the British and the U.N. agreed that the Mandate of Palestine would be divided into two states, one Jewish state and one Arab state. The Jews accepted in 1948, while the Arabs rejected the offer of a state, and the state of Israel was born. Israel was not "stolen"; achieving statehood was a long process that required international approval and cooperation.

The Israeli Declaration of Independence


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:31 AM

Thank you for making my point
"but non-Jews are also eligible to become citizens under naturalization procedures similar to those in other countries"
Arabs who have occupied the area for millenia have to apply to the Israeli regime to live there.
Couldn't be more clearly phrased
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:55 AM

Keith, you have failed to demonstrate that any of Jim's quotes were fakes

The quotes are by dead people. They don't count.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:56 AM

"claiming that Jews, like any other nation..."

?????

"...while the Arabs rejected the offer of a state, and the state of Israel was born. Israel was not 'stolen'..."

Really? Then explain the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 09:03 AM

I. The Irish Times published this letter from the Israeli historian Benny Morris in response to the myth that "Israel ethnically cleansed the Arabs in 1948…" in February 21, 2008, an excerpt has been copied below:

"The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.

It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" – and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) – was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah – the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) – to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th.

It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.

The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies – much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 09:23 AM

"Arabs who have occupied the area for millennia"
.,,.
They might have 'occupied' it; but have never had any sort of sovereign or governmental control over it since, at latest, the beginning of the Ottoman Empire. The stretch of country known as Palestine belonged to, & was governed by, the Turks, from the C15 until captured in 1917 by British troops under General Allenby. Britain set up a provisional administration, and the country was subsequently placed under a Mandate of the League Of Nations after WW1, with GB as the mandatory power. Various political manoeuvrings & activities occurred during the 20s 30s 40s, followed by the British withdrawal, with entirely adequate notice, following a partition suggested by the United Nations, which was accepted by the emergent state of Israel, but not by the Arab section of the population — many of whom left their homes at the insistence of the surrounding Arab nations of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Transjordan, to allow these to invade and 'drive Israel into the sea' immediately after the declaration of the State, with promise that they could return as soon as this was accomplished. But it wasn't; so the departed Arabs found themselves in refugee camps — in which, to the shame of the entire Arab world, many of them still languish, in Syria etc, nearly 70 years later, while Israel has absorbed countless immigrants during that period.

The fact that the conduct of Israeli governments during the intervening period has been, as I never tire of saying, an acute disappointment, to Einstein and others, including me, does not invalidate the accuracy of the above facts.

So what, precisely, Jim, do you mean by this emotive assertion about this "millennia-long" Arab occupation? And, assuming, just for the sake of argument, such to have existed in any viable form in the circumstances I have rubricated,, how do you suggest that it might be restored at this time of day?

Just asking -

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 09:24 AM

Would that be the same Benny Morris that was faking Ben Gurion's quote? Don't mention it to Keith, Guest! :-)

Incidentally, I note that you have no space to mention the Zionist terrorist gangs that were active in the period up to 1948. Fluffy bunnies, were they? Especially the ones who became such integral parts of the Israeli establishment after statehood? And don't mention Tzipi Livni's dad!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 11:08 AM

What Morris claimed doesn't hold water in the light of actual events, but even if he was partly right, what he was describing was apartheid - a land divided into Arab and Jews, with the overall say in the hands of the latter.   
Gaza is literally a ghetto, surrounded by the same security measures as were those in Warsaw and Vilnus.
Arabs leaving the area for, say work,, lose their citizenship if they fail to return within a set period.
Recently, an attempt has been made to build a new town for better-off Palestinians - the work was constantly sabotaged by having water and electricity supplies cut off and by stone-throwing settlers.
Following the last two invasions of Gaza, the demand that water and electricity supplies should be terminated and the occupants be "driven into the desert" or into neighbouring Arab countries has become a redular mantra of politicians and Israels in general..
Arab residents are constantly being evicted to make room for setlers, who are left with te insurmountable problem of finding new homes.
The victims of last years bloodbath have not begun to sort out the problems caused by the mass destruction of homes, hospitals, schools... and all the other essentials of everyday life.
Despit the fact that most of the "decent" countries have supported the idea od a two-state system, Israel (backed by America up to now) have opposed this, leaving those displaced with what option exactly - move to a surrounding Arab country (Ben Gurion's dream).
Nomads are being forced out of their traditional lands (in some cases leading to ill health and even death) in order to make room for settlers.
Even in some of the places nomads have been able to ghettoise themselves, they have had natural water supplies cut off and have had to negotiate fresh supplies with water companies set up by the Settlers committees or the Israeli Government.
Whatever way you look at this, it is ethnic cleansing in all but name - add to this the 5 million refugees who ara not able to return to their homes, you have ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969."

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
You can't sput it any clearer than that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 11:42 AM

Steve, the Ben Gurion letter quote.
A statement had words crossed out that reversed the original meaning and became inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph.
He did not make alterations normally.
I think he meant what he wrote not what it was altered to look like.

This from the man who first used the quote,
"The quote, from Ben-Gurion's letter of 5 October 1937 to his son Amos, as it appeared in my The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (CUP, 1988), read: "We must expel Arabs and take their places … " I had quoted it from Shabtai Teveth's much-lauded book Ben-Gurion and the Palestine Arabs (OUP 1985).

The problem was that in the original handwritten copy of the letter deposited in the IDF Archive, which I consulted after my quote was criticized, there were several words crossed out in the middle of the relevant sentence, rendering what remained as "We must expel the Arabs …" But Ben-Gurion rarely made corrections to anything he had written, and this passage was not consonant with the spirit of the paragraph in which it was embedded. It was suggested that the crossing out was done by some other hand, later — and that the sentence, when the words that were crossed out were restored, was meant by Ben-Gurion to say and said exactly the opposite ("We must not expel the Arabs … ").

In my subsequent works, I either omitted the quotation altogether or used the version allowed by the restoration of the crossed-out words."

The Sharon quote was definitely faked.
He never said it.

Jim,
"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."
Go read what the Israelis are doing
Stop trying to limit yur arguments - this is what you had#ve always done


You made the claim Jim.
Can you substantiate it or not?
That is the only issue I have made from your "page of gibberish" because it was the first point you made in it.
That is as far as we have got through it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 12:26 PM

"You made the claim Jim."
Done it a dozen times Keith - keep up
"because it was the first point you made in it."
And it's a point that, despite being hammered into the ground, you still persist on clinging to
You persistently called me a liar - you might confirm that, as some of my argument was based on what the Holocaust survivors wrote, you consider them "liars" too
Silence with,as far as I am concerned, confirm that you do - unless, of course, you fallback on the blustering Brigadier's argument that because they weren't elected, they have no voice - just as disgusting
Missed a bit from above
One of the more recent aspects of Israeli ethnic cleansing is their attempts to encourage Jews from all over Europe to emigrate to Israel - not as a result of the persecution in the 30s and 40s, which led to the establishment of the State, but to create a monotheistic state.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 12:40 PM

Automatic citizenship for Jews eh?

Unless you are an Ethiopian Jew of course. I read some rather shocking stuff recently about how those who managed to get there have been treated.

Calling it a Jewish state when Arabs, Christians, Sikh, the other one and rational people also make up the numbers is almost as bad as when Cameron calls The UK a Christian country. I'm not a Christian, my mate Tahir definitely isn't a Christian and a mate in my local pub puts Jedi Knight when asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:06 PM

You call people liars on the strength of the doubtful claim that Ben Gurion did not cross out his own handwriting. The spirit of what was left in the letter after the crossing-out was certainly in keeping with other things he was known to have said, as Jim as demonstrated. You are far too quick to call people liars, Keith, and the real reason you do it is because you are clearly insecure about the "information" you put to us. Calling someone a liar implies a certainty about your stance that you don't possess. Disreputable behaviour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:20 PM

Calling it a Jewish state......

Jewish is a nationality, Judaism is the religion.

Any vilification by you of Islamic states? Thought not.

Your selectivity is telling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:33 PM

Jim, if you stand by, "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" then please produce something that shows that they are.

I do not believe that they are and nothing you have produced so far shows that they are.
I think that you made it up.

Steve, do you believe that the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians?

Can you say why you believe that?
As Greg says, dubious quotes from the long dead are not evidence of anything being done now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:43 PM

"A statement had words crossed out that reversed the original meaning and became inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph."
Ben Gurion's statements were contradictory – on the one hand he talked about the Arabs agreeing to be resettled voluntarily (ethnic cleansing by approval), on the other, he said they refused, they there were there means at their disposal (ethnic cleansing pure and simple)
Then There was
"Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the
[Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that"
Whatever way you take it, his dream was to create an ethnically pure (ethnically cleansed) state.
"The Sharon quote was definitely faked.
He never said it"
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-11576714
BBC
You really are into self-harm, aren't you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:07 PM

Yep, the euphemistic term "transfer" was highly popular among Zionists in the runup to 1948. Euphemisms are a good way of getting your bad ideas accepted. "Rendition" is a nice modern example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:32 PM

You both think it likely that he accidentally wrote "We must not expel the Arabs … " and then crossed out the "not."

I think that most unlikely!

You both think that ""the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

OK, then tell me why you do and why I should believe it.
Ancient and dubious quotes from the long dead are not evidence of the current policy.

Have any Arabs been cleansed out of Israel?
Evidence please.
Is it being attempted?
Evidence please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:38 PM

Jim, you just linked to this BBC page of Sharon quotes, implying it proves me wrong.

The quote I said was fake is not there!
I have no problem with any of them.
Which one do you have an issue with?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11576714


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:39 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11576714


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:17 PM

The anonymous guest, who may or not he BraidedBeardedBruce, completely misses the point.

My comments about a Jewish state and a Christian country are obviously way too high over the bar for his grasp.

If you can't comment intelligently, stick to child abuse. We had a "guest" who admitted to that once. Unless you show otherwise, it must have been you.

😴


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:41 PM

Just personal abuse.
No actual point.
Please block this serial offender.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:54 PM

The quote I said was fake is not there!
The 'Ethnic cleansing statement is the one I was referring to and it's there- don't know which one you're on about.
""Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998"
Why shouldn't he have said it - he was the butcher of Sabra Shatila?
"I think that most unlikely"
Personally.I don't give two ***** what you believe - you dismissed every other fact put before you
Again - he has been quoted as saying it and it has never been disproved that he didn't
Morris's claim is to say the least, suspiciously convenient as Israel had forbidden access to many Ben Gurion documents even though, by law, they have become legally accessible
Ben Gurion's honesty in his dealings is now being treated as suspicious (see below)
It is suggested that President Kennedy was instrumental in forcing Israel to take refugees back into Israel
KENNEDY'S ROLE
Any sane person has enough information to realise that Ethnic cleansing has been part of Israel's plan from before the State was established – doesn't apply to you, rr yout little band of right-wing fanatics and Antisemites, of course
Jim Carroll


DID BEN GURION REWRITE HISTORY?
"The Israeli censor's observant eye had missed file number GL-18/17028 in the State Archives. Most files relating to the 1948 Palestinian exodus remain sealed in the Israeli archives, despite the fact that their period as classified files – according to Israeli law – expired long ago. Even files that were previously declassified are no longer available to researchers. In the past two decades, following the powerful reverberations triggered by the publication of books written by those dubbed the "New Historians," the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as "top secret." Researchers who sought to track down the files cited in books by Benny Morris, Avi Shlaim or Tom Segev often hit a dead end. Hence the surprise that file GL-18/17028, titled "The Flight in 1948" is still available today.

The documents in the file, which date from 1960 to 1964, describe the evolution of the Israeli version of the Palestinian Nakba ("The Catastrophe") of 1948. Under the leadership of Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, top Middle East scholars in the Civil Service were assigned the task of providing evidence supporting Israel's position – which was that, rather than being expelled in 1948, the Palestinians had fled of their own volition.

Ben-Gurion probably never heard the word "Nakba," but early on, at the end of the 1950s, Israel's first prime minister grasped the importance of the historical narrative. Just as Zionism had forged a new narrative for the Jewish people within a few decades, he understood that the other nation that had resided in the country before the advent of Zionism would also strive to formulate a narrative of its own. For the Palestinians, the national narrative grew to revolve around the Nakba, the calamity that befell them following Israel's establishment in 1948, when about 700,000 Palestinians became refugees.

By the end of the 1950s, Ben-Gurion had reached the conclusion that the events of 1948 would be at the forefront of Israel's diplomatic struggle, in particular the struggle against the Palestinian national movement. If the Palestinians had been expelled from their land, as they had maintained already in 1948, the international community would view their claim to return to their homeland as justified. However, Ben-Gurion believed, if it turned out that they had left "by choice," having been persuaded by their leaders that it was best to depart temporarily and return after the Arab victory, the world community would be less supportive of their claim.
Most historians today – Zionists, post-Zionists and non-Zionists – agree that in at least 120 of 530 villages, the Palestinian inhabitants were expelled by Jewish military forces, and that in half the villages the inhabitants fled because of the battles and were not allowed to return. Only in a handful of cases did villagers leave at the instructions of their leaders or mukhtars (headmen).«


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:58 PM

Seriously, you guys need a 12-step program and a support group!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:25 PM

Euphemisms are a good way of getting your bad ideas accepted

Like the "Zionists", the "state" of Israel, AIPAC etc......right Stevie.....nudge, nudge, wink, wink!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:52 PM

I'm confused Keith.

Were you agreeing with me re the anonymous poster or are you referring to some of your distasteful hatred in your posts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:56 PM

What are you on about? Do you actually know what "euphemism" means?

Jeri, you need a support group that advises you either to contribute or to just bugger off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:00 PM

The first part of that was to beardie-weirdie bruciebubbles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:24 PM

Jewish is a nationality

No, BSB - ISRAELI is a nationality. Jewish is a member of the Jewish faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:39 PM

Wrong Greggie. Who are you to say that Jews aren't a race or nationality? Who made you arbiter of defining what is a Jew? The Jewish people say otherwise and I accept their word over that of some flunkie on a folk music forum lol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:10 PM

If you are an Israeli national with appropriate passport, you are an Israeli by nationality. You can be an Israeli by nationality if you are a Christian, an Arab, an atheist or whatever. Such people are not Jewish nationals, even though they are citizens of the so-called Jewish state, because they are not Jews. The term nationality, applied to individuals, refers to the state of their citizenship. Because far from everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish, it is not appropriate to refer to "Jewish nationality", and it doesn't matter who says that. I am not an arbiter in these matters. I am simply applying the generally-accepted way that things are. I'm sorry that you find this so difficult, beardie-weirdie Mr not-anonymous Brucicles. I'll try to help you in any way I can. All you have to do is ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:26 PM

Another Jew hater speaking for the Jews.....keep it up, your arrogance knows no bounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:32 PM

You're running out of accolades, Brucie dearest. Your imagination has run riot but you haven't seen it for days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:34 PM

Tell us again how you're not an antisemite....by YOUR definition......lol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:09 PM

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
European definition of Antisemitism No. 11 - final item

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
lol
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:19 PM

He's trolling, Jim. Either that, or the extremely childish "lol" that he's decided to resort to is a reflection of his declining mental state or a reflection of his ever-increasing alcohol load. He might feel better in the morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:20 PM

Ilan Pappe is an Israeli historian,
"Calling a Spade a Spade:The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
Written by Ilan Pappe
Calling a Spade a Spade:The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
For many years, the term al Nakba, the catastrophe, seemed a satisfactory term for both the events of 1948 in Palestine and their impact on our lives today. I think, it is time to use a different term, 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine'.
The term Nakba does not directly imply any reference to who is behind the catastrophe – anything can cause the destruction of Palestine, even the Palestinians themselves.
Not so when the term ethnic cleansing is used. It implies an accusation and reference to the culprits of/for the events that took place not only in the past but happen also in the present. Far more importantly, it connects policies, such as ones used to destroy Palestine in 1948, to an ideology which continues to guide Israel's policies towards the Palestinians: the Nakba continues, or more forcefully and accurately, the ethnic cleansing rages on. In this 58th commemoration of the Nakba, it is time to use openly and without hesitation the term ethnic cleansing as the best possible term for describing the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948.
Ethnic Cleansing is a crime and those who perpetrate it are criminals. In 1948, the leadership of the Zionist movement, which became the government of Israel, committed a crime against the Palestinian people. The crime was Ethnic Cleansing. This is not a casual term but an indictment with far reaching political, legal and moral implications. The meaning of this term was clarified in the aftermath of the 1990s' civil war in the Balkans. Any action by one ethnic group meant to drive out another ethnic group with the purpose of transforming a mixed ethnic region into a pure one is Ethnic Cleansing. An action can become Ethnic Cleansing regardless of the means employed. Every means, from persuasion and threats to expulsions and mass killings, justifies the attribution of the term to such policies. The act itself qualifies the categorization of the act: therefore, certain policies are regarded as Ethnic Cleansing by the international community even when a master plan for their execution is not found or exposed. Consequently, the victims of Ethnic Cleansing are both people who left out of fear and those expelled forcefully as part on an on-going operation. The above definitions and references can be found in the American State Department and United Nations websites. These are the principal definitions that guided the International Court in The Hague when it was setup to try those responsible for planning and executing the Ethnic Cleansing operations as people guilty of perpetrating crimes against humanity.
In Plan Dalet, adopted in March 1948 by the high command of the Hagana (the main Jewish underground in the pre-state days), the Israeli objective of 1948 is clear. The goal was to take over as much as possible of the territory of Mandatory Palestine and remove most of the Palestinian villages and urban neighborhoods from the coveted territory which would constitute the future Jewish State. The execution was even more systematic and comprehensive than the plan anticipated. In a matter of seven months, 531 villages were destroyed and 11 urban neighborhoods emptied. The mass expulsion was accompanied by massacres, rape and imprisonment of men (defined as males a bove the age often) in labor camps for periods over a year. All these characteristics in the year of 2006 can be only attributed to Ethnic Cleansing policy; namely a policy that, according to the UN definition, aims at transforming a mixed ethnic area into a pure ethnic space, where all means are justified. Such a policy is defined under international law as a crime against humanity which the US State Department believes can only be rectified by the repatriation of all the people who left or were expelled as a result of the ethnic cleansing operations.

The political implications of such a statement is that Israel is exclusively to blame for the making of the Palestinian refugee problem and bears legal, as well as moral responsibility for the problem. The legal implication is that even if there is obsolesce, after such a long period, for those who committed a deed which is described as a crime against humanity, the deed itself is still a crime for which nobody ever was brought to justice. The moral implication is that indeed the Jewish State, like many other states, was born out of sin, but the sin, or the crime, was never admitted. Worse, among certain circles in Israel it is acknowledged and in the same breath fully justified: justified in the past and in the future as a future policy against Palestinians wherever they are.

But all these implications were totally ignored by the Israeli political elite and instead a very different lesson was derived from the events of 1948. The lesson: you can, as a state, expel half of Palestine's population, destroy half of its villages and get away with it without a scratch or criticism. The consequences of such a lesson were inevitable: the continuation of the Ethnic Cleansing policies by other means. There are well-known landmarks in this process, for instance, the expulsion of tens of villages between 1948 and 1956 from Israel proper, the forced transfer of 300,000 Palestinians from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and a very measured, but constant, cleansing from the Greater Jerusalem area.

As long as the political lesson is not learned, there will be no solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The issue of the refugees will repeatedly fail any attempt, successful as it may be in any other parameters, to reconcile the two conflicting parties. This is why it is so important to recognize the 1948 events as an Ethnic Cleansing operation, so as to ensure that a political solution will not evade the root of the conflict, namely, the expulsion of the Palestinians. Such evasions in the past are the main reasons for the collapse of all the previous peace accords.

As long as the legal lesson is not learned – there will always remain retributive impulses and revengeful emotions on the Palestinian side. The legal recognition of the 1948 Nakba as an act of ethnic cleansing would enable a restitutive justice. This is the process that has taken place recently in South Africa. The acknowledgement of past evils is not done in order to bring criminals to justice, but rather in order to bring the crime itself to public attention and trial. The final ruling there will not be retributive, there will be no punishment, but rather restitutive, the victims will be compensated. The most reasonable compensation for the particular case of the Palestinian refugees was stated clearly already in December 1948 by the UN General Assembly in its resolution 194: the unconditional return of the refugees and their families to their homeland (and homes where possible).
As long as the moral lesson is not learned the state of Israel will continue to exist as a hostile enclave in the heart of the Arab world. It will remain the last reminder of the colonialist past that complicates not only Israeli relationships with Palestinians, but with the Arab world as a whole. And, because the moral lesson is not fully comprehended, there exists in Israel justifications for Ethnic Cleansing both in 1948 and its current forms.
When and how can we hope for these lessons to be learned and influence the effort to bring peace and reconciliation in Palestine? First, of course, not much can be expected to happen as long as the present brutal phase of the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip continues. And the effort to locate the 1948 ethnic cleansing at the center of the world's attention and consciousness must continue, alongside the struggle against the occupation, including tactic of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) being adopted as the main strategy by civil society in the Occupied Territories and by the international solidarity movement. This effort can not be limited to one place. The place where the Ethnic Cleansing of 1948 occurred, Israel of today, is totally excluded from this enterprise. The work to raise attention and consciousness inside the land of the Nakba should continue and be coordinated with Palestinians and those who support them. With the help of Badil and other organizations, the Palestinian refugees in Israel, Internally Displaced Persons, and other leading Palestinian NGOs in Israel, cooperated with a group of Jewish activists to initiate a serious attempt to bring Ethnic Cleansing to the attention of the public and argue forcefully and without any hesitation for the implementation of the Palestinian right of return.

In two conferences supporting the right of return, Palestinian and Jewish researchers and activists publicly aired their findings about the ethnic cleansing from 1948 until today and presented their ideas on how best to move forward in educating public opinion about the disastrous implications – for Palestinians and Jews alike, indeed for the world at large – of the continued denial of the 1948 Ethnic Cleansing and the refusal to accept the internationally recognized Right of Return.
On the 58th anniversary and in preparation for the 60th anniversary we – Palestinians, Israelis and whoever cares for this land – should demand that the 1948 crime against humanity be included in everyone's history books so as to stop the present crimes from continuing before it is too late.
Dr. Ilan Pappe is a senior lecturer in the college of political sciences at the University of Haifa. He is also the head of the Emile Touma Institute for Palestinian and Israeli Studies, Haifa. Dr. Pappe is considered one of the new Israeli historians".


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:30 PM

Excellent piece, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:38 PM

Good to have old BullshitBruce back amongst us for comic relief, even if he is too much of a putz to post under his own name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:42 PM

Another Jew hater speaking for the Jews.....keep it up, your arrogance knows no bounds.

I dunno, BSB - you're a total jackass who claims to be "speaking for the Jews"- how arrogant does that make YOU?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 03:58 AM

Israel is a state.

It can't be a Jewish state because citizens who don't have any superstitious faith get to vote too.

Next.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 04:22 AM

Jim,
The 'Ethnic cleansing statement is the one I was referring to

That quote is about West Bank settlements.
Why is that relevant to your claim that the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians?

It is well known that Sharon was a robust supporter of settlements, but I am challenging your claim about ethnically cleansing Israel of Palestinians now.

It is becoming increasingly clear that you made the whole thing up.

There is no ethnic cleansing of Israel, and you can produce nothing to support your claim.

Steve do you believe that the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians?
Why do you?


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