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BS: Cultural genocide

Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 06:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 15 - 05:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 04:27 AM
Musket 13 Jun 15 - 03:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 15 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 02:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 01:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 15 - 01:54 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 15 - 06:42 PM
Musket 12 Jun 15 - 06:25 PM
Jeri 12 Jun 15 - 06:06 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 15 - 06:01 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 15 - 05:28 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 15 - 05:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 15 - 04:48 PM
Musket 12 Jun 15 - 04:28 PM
Greg F. 12 Jun 15 - 04:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jun 15 - 04:12 PM
Greg F. 12 Jun 15 - 04:08 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 15 - 04:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 15 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 15 - 03:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 15 - 02:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 15 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 15 - 01:59 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 15 - 01:53 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 15 - 01:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 15 - 01:29 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 15 - 01:26 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 15 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 15 - 11:25 AM
Greg F. 12 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 15 - 09:31 AM
GUEST 12 Jun 15 - 09:05 AM
GUEST 12 Jun 15 - 08:57 AM
GUEST 12 Jun 15 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jun 15 - 07:00 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jun 15 - 08:26 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 15 - 07:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 15 - 03:21 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 15 - 03:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 15 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 15 - 11:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jun 15 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 15 - 11:09 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 15 - 10:39 AM
GUEST 11 Jun 15 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:09 AM

"is irrelevant, and the quotes were fake anyway."
No they weren't
"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."
Go read what the Israelis are doing
Stop trying to limit yur arguments - this is what you had#ve always done
YOU HAVE ALWAYS ATTEMPTED TO ABSOLVE ISRAEL OF EVER SINGLE CRIME THEY HAVE COMMITTED
Lie down - you're dead
And don't youever call me a liar again
You have lied and twisted your way right through this thrad from the beginning and are still doing so.
The only thing you have not done is to resort to your old stunt of postiing under a false name, and given time and opportunity, I have no doubt you would have done this as well
Go away - or answer the facts you have been presented with
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:19 AM

Sadly, Greg, yes. Can't help it. Bit like picking scabs but more painful!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 04:47 AM

Jim "from the origins of the state" is irrelevant, and the quotes were fake anyway.

Have I misunderstood you?
Sorry if I have, but you did say,

"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

To me, that says that the current regime is attempting to remove Palestinians from the country.

I know they are not so I called you on it.
Is it all just a big misunderstanding?
If so, sorry, and let's move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 04:27 AM

You have had your evidence Keith - you have had your quotes - from the origins of the state to the present day
GUILTY AS CHARGED
You have refused to respond to a single one of my questions, which makes you every bit as guilty as Israel
And don't you ever call me, or anybody else on this forum a liar or you will be linked back to this thread each time you do.
You have no sense of decency and no self respect - you are a moral mess
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:52 AM

Yes Keith. Winding you up. Winding up each and every person who pursues an agenda of abusing Mudcat to propagate lies and false premise designed to vilify people on the basis of their oppression.

Musket did mention a while back that he hadn't been on Mudcat for a short while for technical reasons. I assume you got it from his local folk club thread? Thinking of going are we? Why ever would you be checking up on him?

If you do go, try not to make it late September. I hope to be visiting it myself then and you might just look at me and think "where have I seen him before?" You are easily recognised by your cloven hoof and labels to differentiate your arse from your elbow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

Jim, you have produced no evidence at all that "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

Put up one single quote referring to it (not decades old and not faked).
Identify one Arab citizen who is a refugee in another country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:31 AM

"Jim SPECIFICALLY claimed that the CURRENT REGIME is "attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians""
I claimed no such thing - I produced clip after clip of others saying it - including 360-odd Holocaust survivors
I have never claimed anything here that has not been backed up by masses of documented and reported evidence from people on the spot - you have produced nothing other than denial - not one scrap.
This has been your totally irrational defence of Israel terrorism from day one.
Your defence of the Sabra/Shatila massacre was "Isreal denies the did it".
Your support for the incursions, last years massacre, the evictions, the use of chemicals, the destruction of hospitals, schools homes... the mass eviction of the Palestinians fromtheir homes to make toom for settlers.... 'It can't be true, because the West does buiness with them'
The world is now faced with the fact that the regime is attempting to make Israel a 'Jews only' State - it transpires that this is has been the case from day one.
The only thing you have produced is a carefully selected sentence from a long article apparently suggesting that this is not the case.
You claim to have produces plenty of evidence - you have produced none, and you have totally ignored everything that has been produced by others.
If you are suggesting that I have invented the claim that Israel is ethnically cleansing the Arabs from Israel - you are lying.
Is that what you are claiming?
If you are claiming that I have invented the statements I have put up, you are lying
Is that what you are claiming?
You blustering friend has suggested that the Holocaust Survivors have no right to be believed because they have not been elected.
Is that what you are claiming, if not, why do you rfuse to respond to what they wrote - isn't their opinion worthy of comment?
If I am a liar, as you have repeatedly claimed
WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT I HAVE LIED, WHAT HAVE I MADE UP?
The subject here is 'cultural genocide - that is what the holcaust Survivors have accused Israel of being part of - it fits in to this discussion as does any cultural genocide taking place in the world today.
The behavior of the Israel today towards the Palestinian Arabs is comparable to that which happened in in the United States, in Australia, in New Zealand..... in any place where the natives have been slaughtered and driven out to make room for settlers.
Jim Carroll

Worth reading

Ethnic cleansing a view from America

From a Jewish historian

Arabs aren't the only ones being persecuted


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:06 AM

And Jeri, some people are not interested in the issues, just in "winding people up."

Musket - PM
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:55 PM

Reight.

Back on after Mudcat bonking me out. (ironically the other two Muskets dont get that problem and have been winding people up nicely in the BS section I noticed.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:59 AM

Jeri, I do take your point, but it was Jim who raised the subject of Israel again.

My guilt is to be unable to resist challenging false propaganda, and once it is on the thread, that is reasonable I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:54 AM

No it is not Steve.
All countries have planning laws and move people who ignore them, but only within the country.
In tiny, tiny Israel they can't get moved far.
I have discussed resettlement before.
I accept it is an issue, but it is not this one.

Jim SPECIFICALLY claimed that the CURRENT REGIME is "attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

That is a serious accusation, BUT NO EVIDENCE AT ALL HAS BEEN PRODUCED!!

Decades old quotes that are fake anyway are not evidence.

Let's see evidence of people already cleansed out of Israel, or quotes from the current government or any other decent government about it.

You never will because the accusation is just another lie against Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:42 PM

Bloody stupid post, Jeri. Are you a moderator? I've never quite worked it out. If you are, that post is beneath you. Anyway, to the substantive.   Keith, for the third time, the attempted expulsion of the Bedouin from the Negev is ethnic cleansing by any definition you'd care to provide. And it is very much present tense. Five hundred homes destroyed this year alone. As for my being an Israel-hater, your frustration is badly showing. My many posts on this topic, should you care to explore instead of being wilfully stupid, would reveal to you that I support, reluctantly I admit, the continued existence of the state of Israel. I strongly support the Israeli people, who I believe have been serially hoodwinked by their leaders, and I hate the fact that they are subjected to the long-term insecurity that their stupid regimes manage to rain down on them. I've said these things in many a thread here until I'm blue in the face. The Israeli people have the same right as everyone else on the planet to expect peace, security and prosperity. Unlike you, I happen to think that that should also extend to Palestinians. That's the difference between us. So, basically Keith, you can sod off with your idiotic Steve-is-an-Israel-hater crap, if you don't mind. If you say stuff like that ever again I shall have to consider calling you a bloody idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:25 PM

Better than it being all about.. Err where was it again?

Oh yeah. Canada.



Canada. Hang on, don't help me. It'll come to me eventually...


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:06 PM

I hope the bizarro usual way of things here isn't lost on those not involved in this thread. Something started with "Chief Justice says Canada attempted 'cultural genocide' on aboriginals" turned, via the Usual Fuckwits, the Mudcat Fight Club, the Keith and Jim show (although that leaves a few people out) to be about the middle east, Jews & Arabs.

Stupid, insensitive, unable to focus on anything anybody else might want to discuss--why do you think anybody else wants to hear this shit... again?

Oh yeah--you don't care, because it's all about you...


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:01 PM

Holocaust survivors letter
LIARS ALL

"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.
Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.
We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 05:28 PM

"Understand it now?"
Shit - I forgot that
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 05:01 PM

"Everything that's wrong with the modern Left: the UK's National Union of Students rejects a motion condemning ISIS, yet passes a motion boycotting Israel href=http://t.co/a0oGGc52Go Forget saying Israel is worse than ISIS, anyone who even entertains the idea that they're equally bad, is frankly insane"- Maajid Nawaz


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:48 PM

Mindless abuse can not alter the fact that no Israeli citizens are being cleansed out of Israel and none ever have been.

It might get the thread closed and spare your humiliation though.

Jim's statement "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" is false.

They are not and never have.
You lie.

The quotes attributed to Sharon and Ben Gurion are both shown to be faked.

The enemies of Israel make up lies and gullible lefties like you people believe it all without question.

If any Arabs have been cleansed out of Israel, who were they and where did they go?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:28 PM

If only Israelis didn't look so Western...

Just think Keith, if they were a few hundred miles South East, they'd be prone to grooming girls instead of kicking the fuck out of their neighbours eh?

Bigot


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:22 PM

Still in the inexorable grip of that strange compulsion, Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:12 PM

Will someone make it stop? Please!

:-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:08 PM

Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead."

Ya see, Jim, its like them there dead historians who don't count-dead Israelis don't either.

They have to be LIVING Israelis who are also Eminent Israelis, whose works are in BOOKSTORES, who write for the tabloid press and whose views coincide with those of K Ah of H.

Understand it now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:05 PM

Yes - did, and you have just been given it again in the Hate Speech
Why are you doing this?
You have not responded to one fact put up
You have ignored every single statement by Britain, by the U.S, and the U.N., by groups like Amnesty, Human rights Watch, by writers and speakers from all over the world - including Jews and particularly from Holocause survivors - all have condemned Israel's policy as Ethnic Cleansing and Apartheid.
You claim that I have lied - if so, they all lied, you moron....
You have been figures of over five million refugees and of 351 villages depopulated by Israeli action and you still deny what is now being reported weekly - Israel is carrying out a poliicy of Ethnic cleansing and has done since day one of the state being set up.
Now you edit statements to attempt to show that what was there in the first place wasn't
You are a religious fanatic defending extremist Zionism and you claim to be a Christion - you aren't even Jewish
You are insane, or you think the rest of us are
Eben the Bullying Brigadier and the Brucie the Troll have backed away from your argument.
GET HELP
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 03:30 PM

That was a statement from the founder of The State of Israel

No it was not.
He never said that.
I gave you what he really wrote.

If he had said that back before Israel even existed, it would still not justify your lie,
"When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

They are not and never have.
You lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 03:19 PM

"Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead."
That was a statement from the founder of The State of Israel - he died in 1973 and is still revered by most Jewish people, though some are now questioning his wisdom and tactics
His statement has been reiterated by many Jewish leaders and his advice was being followeed from the birth of the Israeli state by Israeli "Freedom Fighters hurling hand grenades into the occupied homes of Palestinians The is ethnic cleansing
It wouldn't matter anyway - he made the statement he did - you have the quote - I don't have to tell lies to stupid people
Ben Gurion also said that conditions should be created to allow Arabs to leave of their own free will That is ethnic cleansing EVERY ONE OF THE THOUSANDS OF SETTLEMENT THAT HAS EVER BEEN CREATED BY DRIVING OUT THE LEGAL ARAB OCCUPANTS IN ORDER TO MAKE ROOM FOR JEWISH SETTLERS IS AN ACT OF ETHNIC CLEANSING
Ethnic cleansing by removing all Arabs and replacing them with was the aim of the founders of Israel - by peaceful means, war or terrorism - little example of the first, decades of them of the other two.
Israel is at present attempting to drive Palextinians out of their homes - go count the rapidly increasing number of illegal settlements - PRESENT TENSE.
"Israel was again accused of ethnic cleansing yesterday, which is not an uncommon concurrence in the Middle East, but this time, the accusation was made by a widely respected Jewish United Nations official. Prof. Richard Falk, a "rapporteur" for human rights violations in the Palestinian territories, charged that Israel's policy of continuing to build new settlements in the Occupied Territories and revoking residency permits for Palestinians living in Jerusalem bore "unacceptable characteristics of colonialism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing."
Etnic Cleansing

From the US

BY ALL MEANS

The attitude of the Israel regime towards Arabs is comparable to that used by the Nazis of the Jews
HATE SPEECH

By the way - you deliberately took your David Ben Gurion quote out of context and, equally deliberately 'forgot' to either quote your source or link it
I suggest you real it in full:
BEN GURION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 02:25 PM

The lie about that quote originated with Max Blumenthal on Twitter a couple of years ago and has been repeated by Israel haters, of which Steve is the latest.
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2014/10/how_max_blumenthal_lies_about.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 02:03 PM

That quote was made in 1972 by Yoram Bar Porath.
It appeared in Yediot Aahronot, 14 July 1972.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:59 PM

That quote was made in 1972.
It appeared in Porath, Yoram Bar, Yediot Aahronot, 14 July 1972.
It was never said by Sharon or any Israeli politician.

"When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

Note PRESENT TENSE.
It is a lie.
The Israeli regime is not attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians.
You lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:53 PM

As for the present tense, well what about the expulsion of Bedouins from "unrecognised villages" in the Negev, bulldozing a mosque and their homes? Still happening as we sit here, Keith. How much more present tense do you want?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:46 PM

It is not a misquote. The stuff you quote was largely crossed out. Defenders of Ben Gurion claim that someone else did the crossing out much later. Sure. Ben Gurion made several other references to the need to expel Arabs, or that they could use the excuse of a war in which to do it. Do wiki, Keith, before you start calling people liars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:29 PM

Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead.

It is also a lying misquote of what he really said.

"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."
Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25.

You said, "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

Note PRESENT TENSE.
It is a lie.
The Israeli regime is not attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians.
You lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:26 PM

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
(Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, 1998.)

You lied again, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 11:30 AM

"Not one has referred to ridding Israel of its Arab citizens"
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." "
David Ben Gurion - the father of Israel
You lied
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 11:25 AM

"You lied. "
If I lied, then so dd The Holocaust survivors, Jews for Justice, Rabbis for peace, David Ben Gurion..... and all those who have condemned Israel for its behaviour towards the Palestinian Arabs
Ben Gurion actually states that their aim was to cleanse Palestine of "We must expel Arabs and take their places"
This goes from mildly irritating to worryingly bizarre - it's like talking to a parrot - words but no intelligence.
You have had the plan for Palestine clearly stated - an Arab Free country.
Deal with it or accept it - there is no alternative.
Opposing Israeli terrorism is not to be against the Jews and it is Antisemitic to suggest it is - Israel is not "the Jews" and some of its strongest opponents are Jewish.
Israel has betrayed the Jewish people, not it is blaming them for crimes committed by the Israeli regime.
In a way, Israel is like the former Soviet Union - a beautiful dream turned into a nightmare by falling into the wrong hands.
Comparing what happens elsewhere is totally immaterial - Israel, by its very actions, is a terrorist state.
Anybody wishing to prove otherwise has either to show that Israel didn't do what it has proved they did, or what they did is acceptable - anything else is crap.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM

Hey Goofball, how many times ya gonna play the same old tired "antisemite" card? Don't you ever get tired of your own bullshit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:31 AM

From last link,
"Gaza pales compared with Yarmouk, where Syrian soldiers and ISIS decapitators inflicted unspeakable horrors on Palestinian refugees – to no outcry from the Left. Israel was not involved in this catastrophe. If it had been, her critics would have gone ballistic."

"Chaos now envelops the larger Middle East, with no end in sight. A peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is more remote, more elusive, than ever before.

The radical left is hardly alone in failing to foresee the Arab Spring and its horrendous consequences. But it is accountable for providing vacuous and dishonest cheerleading when the Palestinians needed wise and honest counsel. Now, with the broader Middle East in turmoil, it might be too late."

"For nearly fifty years, the anti-Israel left has been committing crimes not just against Israel but against the Palestinians – and the entire peace process."


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:05 AM

"June 10, 1967, marked the end of the Six Day War and the beginning of the radical left's hate affair with the Jewish State.

Although Israel neither welcomed nor wanted this conflict, the Left declared that Israel, not the invading Arabs, had been 'militaristic,' 'colonialistic,' and 'fascistic.'

Was Israel really that bad, or was the Left biased, twisting or ignoring inconvenient facts to fit a prepackaged verdict – and has been biased ever since?"

The Six Day War, and the Origin of the Left's Hatred for Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 08:57 AM

Funny, but sad:

Undercover Reporter Reveals Irish Businesses Willing to Buy From Iran, North Korea While Refusing Israeli Products


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 08:06 AM

BDS Is about Hating Israel, Not Helping Palestinians
http://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2015/06/bds-is-about-hating-israel-not-helping-palestinians/
June 11, 2015 | Mudar Zahran

Those intent on boycotting and delegitimizing the Jewish state only feign that they're motivated by concern for Palestinians, writes Mudar Zahran:

It seems the anti-Semites of today can easily claim "we love the Palestinians" instead of saying "we hate Jews." This method has been championed by the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement against Israel. BDS is dangerous for all of us and could severely harm the West, the Arabs in general, and the Palestinians in particular.

As a Jordanian-Palestinian, I have witnessed firsthand that most BDS movements do not care [about] the Palestinians. . . . I have personally approached several known BDS [organizations] asking them to boycott many Arab countries for the way they treat my people, and not one time did I find even an iota of interest. . . .

When weighing the facts on the ground, the call to boycott Israel is rather ridiculous. Israel is the largest employment provider for Palestinians. Almost every single friend or relative I know in the West Bank works for Israeli businesses, some even inside Israeli settlements. This by itself is evidence of how little BDS cares for Palestinians, because if Israeli businesses shut down because of BDS, how would the Palestinians make a living?

Let's not forget [that] the only Middle Eastern countries that allow Palestinians to work unconditionally are Israel and Saudi Arabia. All other countries [in the region] impose extreme conditions on the employment of Palestinians. . . . Still, you never hear the BDS movement even mentioning any of those countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 07:00 AM

Jim,
"When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

No it is not.
You lied.
As soon as we get that straight we can move on to the next issue Steve.

What have you to say about the quotes from all those Israeli leaders that Jim gave you, Keith?

Not one has referred to ridding Israel of its Arab citizens, which they have no power to do even if they wanted to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:26 PM

What have you to say about the quotes from all those Israeli leaders that Jim gave you, Keith? We have plenty of time, so, if you would, address them one at a time...

(Cue the noisy sounds of breath not bring held...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 07:46 PM

"No Israeli has become a refugee for over half a century."
Gone beyond that you - your extreme display of mindless stupidity has blown any chance of you ever being taken seriously again
However, you have my gratitude.
your thick-headed repetition of your indefensible argument led me to digging deeper into bits of Israeli history I was somewhat vague on.
My family were always fim supporters of the State of Israel, though my father was often disturbed by the aggressive attitude towards the Arabs, who he believed, had as much right to their homeland as did the Jews - he put that down to opportunism - taking advantage of the superior military ability of the Israeli fighters.
He dierd before the outbreak of the Six Day War, and went to his grave still a firm supporter of The State of Israel.
I have always gone along with that, though I totally lost faith in their leaders as Israel's terrorism developed.
As it turns out, ethnic cleansing was part of the plan from the very beginning - Ben Gurion made that quite plain.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.   
Ben Gurion recognised that the Palestinians were the rightful owners of the territory and that the Israelis were the usurpers.
Even having recognised this, he instigated a programme of ethnic cleansing as far back as 1937:
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." WHATEVER COLOR YOU CHOOSE TO PAINT IT, THAT WAS A DECLARATION OF AN INTENTION TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE THE ARABS OUT OF THEIR NATIVE LANDS sixty eight years ago
So all your talk of the Palestinians being the aggressors and the Israeli only defending their rights is (as you are fond of saying) a load of bollocks
Of course the Jews have a right to a homeland, but unfortunately, Israeli extremist regimes have decided that it is someone else's homeland they have decided is theirs.
It is Israel who are the extremists and the Palestinians who are the defenders -that has been the case for decades.
You will almost certainly   ignore this, as you have ignored every other fact put up - doesn't matter - it isn't for your benefit.
My thanks for your help in filling in a gap in my ignorance.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 03:21 PM

No Israeli has become a refugee for over half a century.
No decent government accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing, any more than they accuse it of war crimes or massacres.

No Arab is leaving Israel for any other country.
Israel would not stop them, but they all want to stay.

If that is not true, and you have not lied, tell us who they are and where they have gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 03:06 PM

"The world is NOT saying that is what is happening, because it is NOT HAPPENING!"
Yes it is, and if you care to read down the quotes, you will see that ethnic cleansing hs been on the agenda since day one - if you can't see it, everybody else can.
You've also given the number of the refugees which have been driven out
You my wish to continue to make a fool of yourself - please do
It seems to be what you are best at.
Perhaps you might like to move on tho the massive discrepancy between Israeli and Palestinian casualties - this is as boring as it gets
Have a good day day now


"Israel has conducted bureaucratic warfare on Palestine since the 1993 Oslo accords, Buttu insisted, and has an "erase and replace" policy for Palestinians. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the residency status of 15,000 Palestinian Jerusalemites, including 106 last year. It's treating Palestinians as if they're immigrants to their own land, she lamented."
February 2015
Jim Carroll
Israel's gone way beyond Apartheid


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 02:44 PM

""When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians""
Wonder why the world is saying that this is what is happening - all liars, no doubt.


The world is NOT saying that is what is happening, because it is NOT HAPPENING!

No Israelis have become refugees for over sixty years, so you lied that people are being ethnically cleansed NOW.

No Arab is leaving Israel for any other country.
Israel would not stop them but they all want to stay.

If that is not true, and you have not lied, tell us who they are and where they have gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:49 AM

""When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians""
Wonder why the world is saying that this is what is happening - all liars, no doubt.
You have had the evidence of Arabs being forced out, you have had the world analysis (even from "real" investigators who probably sell their books in "real" bookshops)
You have even been given evidence that this has always been the aim of Israel and the first mention of "cleansing" Israel of the Arabs was by the father of the state, David Ben Gurion - can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that

Some quotes
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized ....
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Can we take it that you don't intend to show us where I went wong in my "page of gibberish"?
Don' blameyou, to be honest
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:19 AM

This really is like watching a train crash. I can see exactly where it is going and what will happen but I am gripped by a strange compulsion to watch. Probably makes me a very bad person :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:09 AM

The UNRWA refugees are not evidence of ethnic cleansing, and they date from over sixty years ago.

YOU CLAIMED,

"When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

THAT IS A LIE.
NONE ARE BEING CLEANSED OUT OF ISRAEL.
NONE ARE LEAVING.
THEIR NUMBERS IN ISRAEL ARE EXPLODING.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 10:39 AM

"These refugees were not ethnically cleansed from Israel."
You asked where they were going - you have the answer
Another reminder
"Their report states that as of January 2010, there are 1,396,368 registered refugees in camps and 3,370,302 registered refugees not in camps."
You have where they are going, but no doubt, you will continue to ignore it
Even the Holocusrt survivors have described what is happening as "ethnic cleansing" - leaving you a 'Holocaust Survivor denier'
"You lied Jim."
You are incredibly stupid to behave the way you are in public
You have denied and ignored facts - press reports, film, world-wide opinion, and you have based your whole case on a liee - that Israel; has the support of "decent countries" for its behaviou - this, even though you have been presented with world-wide condemnation of them
You#r claim makes the U.S., Britain, members of the European Union.... "indecent countries - add to this list Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, Jews For Justice, Rabbis For Peace.... every single human rights organisation has condemned the Ethnic Cleansing that is taking placce
If the article above is correct, 'Genocide' might well be added to that charge, that's what Israel's behaviour borders on

"The United States today condemned Israeli plans for new settlements in the Palestinian territories as "provocative" and running directly opposite to moves Washington believes are helpful to peace and stability in the region."

"The settlements, which are illegal under international law, have been at the flashpoint of the six-month Palestinian intifada or uprising against the Israeli occupation that has killed almost 470 people, most of them Palestinians."

"The European Union has also expressed concern today over the Israeli plans and renewed its condemnation of the country's settlement policies in general."

"All settlement activities are illegal and constitute a major obstacle to peace," the Swedish EU presidency said in a press release.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/us-condemns-israeli-settlement-plans-1.379715

UN investigtor accuses Israel of Ethnic Cleansing

Israel's Ethnic Cleansing Haaretz

Images for Ethnic Cleansing

Ethnic clensing and Apartheid UN

IThe History of Ethnic Cleansing in Israel - Benny Morris and others

We are washing our hands of Ethnic Cleansing - Ireland

Call for ethnic cleansing - Israel's Deputy Speaker

Don't you fdare call me a liar when I am repeating what people around the world are saying
I think were done and dusted on this one
Want to try another item from my "page of gibberish"?

UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185<'font>
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 10:00 AM

"the number of "Palestinian" refugees in the aftermath of the Israeli War of Independence was estimated by the UN as between 711,000 and 726,000. UNRWA itself puts the figure at some 750,000. At the same time, over 800,000 Jews fled Arab lands, most of them settling in the fledgeling State of Israel, which absorbed them with not one dollar of aid from the United Nations. Compare this to the Arab states which kept their "Palestinian" refugee population in refugee camps."

Ibid


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Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM

The Palestinians' Arab brothers...


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