BS: Cultural genocide

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 04:20 AM

Yep - Got me there Teribus. I did use a poor example of mocking peoples beliefs. I lied when I said it was a deeply held belief to prove a point. Others, like Keith, seems to have picked up on that. Still, it was no more a lie than

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 09:11 PM

...they only post on this forum to "take the piss" - honestly just cannot see why we bother with them ...

As they say in the song. Who's the fool now?

Garden centres are fine for me. No-one ever picks a belligerent Gnome :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 01:22 AM

The intrepid Ed T, in a noble attempt to bring this discussion back to the intended topic, posted a link above to the lengthy recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. I urge you to read this, folks. It is a very reasonable consideration of the issue, and could be adapted to similar situations throughout the world.

It was noted above that the Pope was asked to issue an apology for the misdeeds of teachers and other staff in church-run institutions where aboriginal people had been mistreated. Within the context of these recommendations, I think this is a very reasonable request. I see above that some Vatican functionary says that an apology isn't going to happen. I think it's safe to say that over the last two years, Pope Francis has continually contradicted the predictions of Vatican functionaries who think they can manage him. It will be interesting to see how he responds, but he will set his own time for a response. To expect him to honor a deadline is unreasonable. For an apology to be sincere and effective, it must be made in proper context, and not simply to satisfy demands.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 06:58 PM

Hey, it's Musket (1,2,3 and maybe more) lol!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 06:09 PM

Sorry to interrupt, but I thought you all might enjoy this. Scott Adams has advanced a theory that all the combative, insulting posts on internet forums are made by one guy: http://assets.amuniversal.com/e1996ea0c0af0132d64a005056a9545d

It kind of makes sense when you think about it. Those posts all sound so similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 05:56 PM

Dave the Gnome - Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:29 AM

"I have not given an opinion on Keith's three points for the very reason you say."

Kinda contradicted by:

GUEST,Dave the Gnome - 06 May 15

"I hold a deeply rooted belief that the British leadership in WW1 was bad."

So at what point did you say to Keith that your previously deeply rooted belief was now no longer deeply held if held at all? Could you supply us with the post in which you told him that?

Keep wriggling - by the bye aren't Garden Centres rather dangerous places for Gnomes to be wandering around?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:07 PM

OK, Keith, then how about you state for us, in detail, what the Ignorance Fallacy is, if you claim it doesn't apply to your nonsensical statement: Their silence...proves that they do not believe a word of it and then explain to us WHY it doesn't apply.


Don't bother with Sagan's book- even if you could read it, you wouldn't understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:46 PM

Whatever, Keith. Keep deluding yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 02:03 PM

Dave, you wholeheartedly supported those who rejected the views of the historians, and their ridiculing of me for taking my views from their findings.
You joined in that ridiculing.
It is a cowardly lie to claim now that it was only for the style and not the substance of my posts that you mocked and ridiculed me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 02:00 PM

Out of interest, one of the things I have been doing was visiting a garden centre. I was quite taken by a water feature using a barrel. I did not buy it when they told me I could not keep fish in it to shoot them... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:58 PM

Jim, I think we should stop now, unless you can actually quote some states accusing Israel of those things.

It was you who raised the issue of Israel on this thread.

None of which makes an iota of difference to the fact that Israel is an extremist terrorist state.

My reply was that no decent democratic government regards them as such, and I proved that for EU countries, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India.
Unless you can produce a quote, that is it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:53 PM

I have indeed been doing things that normal people do on fine bright Sunday:-) You really are scraping the barrel now, Teribus. As I am sure you know that post was illustrating the point about mocking people. On top of which I did indeed have that deep rooted belief. You seem to have missed the point that it is no longer deep rooted. Keith's points were indeed food for thought which is why I never disputed them. What is it with the selective memories of you guys?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:49 PM

No fallacy Greg.
They do criticise Israel's settlement policy, but they do not criticise Israel for massacres, war crimes or human rights abuses.
Why don't they?

They do criticise Hamas for massacres, war crimes and human rights abuses, but not Israel.
Again, why?

Jim,
You have failed totally to prove that they support Israel's behaviour
You said they supported Israel -

I quoted you extracts that say they support Israel.
They only criticise certain policies. Just the settlements really.
No criticism for massacres, war crimes or human rights abuses because they are not aware of any.
Not from Israel anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:17 PM

For anyone
Interested, some of the Canadian reports recommendations:

truth and reconciliation report recommendations 

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:15 PM

Their silence...proves that they do not believe a word of it.

Only to an idiot. Google up "The Ignorance Fallacy".

Or better yet, geab a copy of Carl Sagan'a The Demon Haunted World and actually read it. Assuming, of course, that you CAN read.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 12:37 PM

I have shown you that EU, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India all have good and friendly relations with Israel."
You have failed totally to prove that they support Israel's behaviour
You said they supported Israel - they didn't, they have all criticised the killing of civilians, bombing of hospitals and ethnic cleansing.
Thwe amount of energy you seem to be prepared defending such behaviour is disgusting
You are one of the most inhuman individuals I have ever come across.
Makes me proud to be an atheist, if you are what passes for a Christian
Bet your church is proud of you
Game over - go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 11:51 AM

Jim, I have shown you that EU, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India all have good and friendly relations with Israel.
They may be critical of some policies, like settlements, but that is normal in international relations.

They are none of them critical of war crimes, massacres or human rights abuses because there are none.

Those countries do not ignore such things.

Their silence, that you acknowledge, proves that they do not believe a word of it.
Nor do I.
Only you gullible dupes who believe everything Israel's enemies come out with.
Informed governments know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 11:36 AM

"The Gnome has gone awfully quiet all of a sudden hasn't he."
You seem to have stopped bullying, blustering and shooting your mouth off too - as is your wont when you are in a corner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 11:25 AM

"The Gnome has gone awfully quiet all of a sudden hasn't he."
Perhaps he's got something better to do than spend all day taking part in a repetitive and boring tit for tat row between adults arguing in the manner of a infant school playground.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 11:01 AM

The Gnome has gone awfully quiet all of a sudden hasn't he.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 10:17 AM

You have the links condemning all, withdrawing the veto condemning settlements
You claim support - you have none -0 uoimade it up
Even if politicians did support them with their silence - it counts for nothing - they are as bd as each other.
Your history of support of ethnic cleansing amd mass murder shames you
Game set and match, as they'll be saying in Wimbledon in a couple of weeks
Byeee
Have a nice pray
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 10:08 AM

You have yet to produce one that "condemned Israel's behaviour, both in laughtering civilians and in usurping Palestinian land and creating a mono-religious state"

You claimed that many do, so show us.

I have always acknowledged that some Israeli policies are criticised by some other states, but no talk of massacres, war crimes or human rights abuses as you claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 09:08 AM

"Jim, that NZ link is the link that I just provided, and with extracts."
Which calls for a 2 state settlement - rejected by Israel
You have yet to provide one coutry that supports Israel ction in gaza and on settlements - not one, despite your desperate dredging
Not even the ******* politicians with war crimes records of their own support Israel
Your defence of Israel is as it always has been - an extremist joke
What pair of right wing caricatures!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:39 AM

Cross posted Jim.
That last was to Musket.

Jim, that NZ link is the link that I just provided, and with extracts.

There is no "condemned Israel's behaviour, both in laughtering civilians and in usurping Palestinian land and creating a mono-religious state"

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:37 AM

"The rest is made up bollocks."
Show one country that openly supports settlements or takes Israel's side in the Gaza massacres last year
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:36 AM

I am willing to participate in reasoned debate.
Exchange views.
You can not do that though.
Just shout nonsense and abuse, then put on another hat and do it again.
You ruin this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:35 AM

NEW ZEALAND POSITION ON ISRAEL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:29 AM

I take it your prayers at church today were for more Israeli bombing of Palestinian schools and hospitals Keith? It's been a while since you and your mates could rave over military tactics. About time Uncle Bibi unleashed his blitzkrieg again eh?

Two wrongs must mean a right in your bible I suppose. I thought your religious nonsense saw them all as people of the book? Or is it just those who look like the old men walking round Clerkenwell when you were a kid?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:29 AM

All the countries named by Keith have condemned Israel's behaviour, both in laughtering civilians and in usurping Palestinian land and creating a mono-religious state.

Not true.
Some oppose settlements.
The rest is made up bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:26 AM

Keith's defence of Israel is based entirely on the argument that if Israel was what the world sees it as being, it would not get the support of Western ("decent") governments.
Even if the the policies of governments who not only regularly support terrorist states, sell the arms and consider them friends and allies were in any way a guide to whether or not such "friends" are terrorist states (enough of them are) and even if countries such as the U.K. and Britain, who invade countries out of self interest and economic and political gain could beconsidered "decent", the argument is a crass one anyway.
All the countries named by Keith have condemned Israel's behaviour, both in laughtering civilians and in usurping Palestinian land and creating a mono-religious state.
The argument is insane and repeating it is dishonest.
World suppost for Israel
Now, even America has siad Israel can no longer rely on it's veto in the future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:15 AM

India,
Al Jazeera
"Why Modi's India aligns more closely with Israel than with Palestinians"

"As Sadanand Dhume, a fellow at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, argued in the Wall Street Journal, "New Delhi appears ready to suggest publicly what many officials already acknowledge privately: A burgeoning strategic partnership with Israel matters more to India than reflexive solidarity with the Palestinian cause."

"India's engagement with Israel has grown substantially in the last two decades on military, scientific, commercial and agricultural matters. The affinity has been less ideological than pragmatic, each side understanding the other's needs. "

"Israeli embassy spokesman Ohad Horsandi emphasized the shared experience of terrorism. "Israel, India and other like minded countries," he told Indian media, "are facing terror threats from organizations with similar radical ideology such as Al-Qaeda, ISIS, LeT [Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based militant outfit accused of committing the 2008 Mumbai attacks and other atrocities in India] and Hamas. These organizations are committed to kill, kidnap and terrorize civilians and should be treated as terrorist organizations.""
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/3/modi-israel-relations.html

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:01 AM

Palestinian human rights activist Bassem Eid:

"We therefore call for an awakening of conscience among the ranks of those who call themselves pro-Palestinian. If they truly are pro-Palestinian, and not simply anti-Israel, then we expect them to strongly condemn Hamas terrorism and Fatah corruption which are the main causes of Palestinian suffering, rather than demonize Israel while ignoring the consequences of that demonization on the lives of real Palestinians."

Calling for an awakening of conscience

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:01 AM

New Zealand,
"New Zealand is prepared to speak out against actions by any party that are likely to have contravened international law. These include rocket attacks by Hamas and/or other Palestinian militant groups against Israel. Equally, we have spoken out against actions by Israel, including the blockade of the Gaza Strip, and expansion of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory."
http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Foreign-Relations/Middle-East/2-Arab-Israeli-conflict.php

Note no mention of "condemning Israel for their ethnic cleansing and their mass murder of civilians."

It is all false propaganda from Israel's enemies Jim.
You gullible dupes lap it all up, but informed governments know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 07:50 AM

An interesting perspective on Canadian First nations issues:

Ontario Premiers reaction

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 07:50 AM

Jim,
And all but Canada are now condemning Israel for their ethnic cleansing and their mass murder of civilians - including those you list as "decent"

The countries of the EU?
Australia?
Show me any decent democracy "condemning Israel for their ethnic cleansing and their mass murder of civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 07:24 AM

I do Joe. That's why the agenda driven filth makes me want to spew. It really is sickening to read some of their drivel. You obviously cherry pick, whilst apart from anything too long to bother with from Terribulus, I tend to read what they put, wondering if it is naivety, lack of intelligence or merely that cyberspace is somewhere where they can shout without hearing the laughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 07:03 AM

Teribus and Keith have adequately illustrated who the "willies" are on this thread....."Team Musket and friends"

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 06:35 AM

"So Gnome, you do not disregard facts presented along with links and sources that substantiate them?"
You obviously do as you and your mate have ignored every single one put up so far.
"Your deeply rooted belief is based on poor history, misinformation and lies"
As you have put up nothing substantial of your own you are relly not in the position to make such acusationYour history is selective shoddy and arrogantly declared (as is your habit) rather than substantiated.
All of the points Keith has put up has been shot down in flames a long time ago - now we are seeing a defensive circling of the wagons in an effort to save face - too late, too late, the maiden cried!!
As the peahen said - "never mid waving the feathers, show us your willie"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 05:26 AM

So Gnome, you do not disregard facts presented along with links and sources that substantiate them?

So you claim to have given no opinion on the three points that Keith made because of your self confessed lack of knowledge on the subject?

If that is the case could you then please explain this:

Seeing as you brought up the dreaded WW1 thread earlier, I hold a deeply rooted belief that the British leadership in WW1 was bad. You say that there is a consensus amongst those who know better that it was not so and mock my belief as being outdated. -
GUEST,Dave the Gnome        - 06 May 15
Mudcat - changes in style and profile (361* d)        
RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile

Your deeply rooted belief is based on poor history, misinformation and lies. Your clearly stated opinion totally disagreeing with the last of the three points Keith put up for discussion flies in the face of every metric that could be used to determine success and failure in that conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:46 AM

"The "decent world," liberal democracies, have warm and friendly relations with Israel"
And all but Canada are now condemning Israel for their ethnic cleansing and their mass murder of civilians - including those you list as "decent".
Israel ranks with States like Saudi Arabia, Qtar and Syria in their past and present relationship with so-called "decent" countries (has the same ring as "real historians, don'cha think?"
"I don't see anybody in this thread denying that genocide does take place and that it is an atrocity"
You don't?
Do you have Specsavers in the U.S.?
Several "usual suspects" have spent a great deal of time denying, ignoring and justifying the atrocities committed by Israel since the establishment of the State - two of the leading staunch defenders of Israel claim allegence to your own religion and in doing so, they bring shame on it, as you do in joining them.
I predict with a degree of confidence that the ethnic cleansing described above, taking place in Israel as we argue, will continue to be ignored (not even defended) by those who get off on that sort of thing.
Now that's what I call "nastiness".
"The Israelis are descendants of homeless refugees, and much of the land for Jewish settlements"
And they in their turn have created a refugee crisis of fr greater proportions - persecuted turned persecutor.
"Palestinians are the largest and longest suffering group of refugees in the world. One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. More than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendents displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations. Another 1.5 million Palestinian refugees and their descendents, also displaced in 1948, are not registered with the UN. About 263,000 Palestinians and their descendents are internally displaced i.e. inside present-day "Israel"."
Americans United for Palestinian Human Rights"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:29 AM

No, Teribus, I have not given an opinion on Keith's three points for the very reason you say. So how can my opinion be considered alongside anyones? Still no found anywhere where I have disregarded facts then? Thought not.

Gnu - Brilliant. I thought it was really him :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:59 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:54 AM

Joe Offer - 07 Jun 15 - 02:57 AM - Excellent Post and the one that followed it isn't too shoddy either, certainly hits the mark, but my guess it will all be to no avail.

The situation that the Israelis find themselves in robs them of a great deal of choice in how they can act and as long as their Arab neighbours stick to their three "Nos" the game they have played since 1920 goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:53 AM

Jim,
When will you people address the facts of the behaviour of the Israeli regime and how it is viewed by the "decent" world,

I could have written that.
Thank you.

The "decent world," liberal democracies, have warm and friendly relations with Israel and do not accuse it of human rights abuses, war crimes or massacres.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:26 AM

Musket, you're smarter than your Mudcat persona. Why not rely on logic and solid information, and lay off the nastiness for a while?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:18 AM

If we use the term "cultural genocide" we could of course be referring to the rewriting of history or current affairs, as portrayed by Keith A Hole of Hertford and Terribulus.

Nice cut & paste above Terribulus. Your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 02:57 AM

Well, if you filter through the nastiness of the Usual Suspects, there is some interesting stuff here, including some of the comments from the Usual Suspects.

I don't see anybody in this thread denying that genocide does take place and that it is an atrocity, and nobody denies that almost all nations must bear guilt for having made progress and acquired property by mass extermination of the aboriginal people.

Ed T says that what happened in Canada was "cultural genocide," while I have to admit that what happened in the US in the 19th century and earlier was not only cultural. I've had the impression that Canadians have been far more just than Americans in their treatment of First Nations, but I wonder how many thousands of natives died in the conquest and colonization of Canada?

It seems to me that whenever genocide takes place, cultural genocide also happens.

---

But then the next question is, how do we respond to genocides or cultural genocides that took place long in the past? In Canada and the United States, most of the current residents are descended from refugees who were not living in North America at the time of the conquest and extermination of the aboriginal peoples. The current governments and religions operate under principles that strictly prohibit genocide, and current governments and religions have tried for decades to repair what they could of the damage that was done. There are always demands for apologies and reparations, but is it fair to require the descendants of refugees to apologize for the acts of people they have no tie to?

There are some places that have denied the genocides of their past - Turkey is a prime example, but the story of what happened in Turkey in the early 20th century, is not an easy web to unravel. The Turks were also an oppressed people at one time, and current Turkish immigrants are scorned in many if not most parts of Europe.

I think it's futile to attempt to assess blame and extract apologies and reparations, especially for misdeeds that happened generations ago. However, we need to study these misdeeds carefully so perhaps we can learn how to ensure they don't happen again. We also need to do whatever we can to repair the damage that was done to aboriginal life and culture.

But should the children of refugees be forced to leave their homes to satisfy the claims of the descendants of those who were displaced generations earlier? In most situations, I don't think so.

---

And as for Israel, there are no easy answers. The Israelis are descendants of homeless refugees, and much of the land for Jewish settlements was acquired with at least some level of legitimacy. Arab Muslims and Christians who are citizens of Israel, seem to do quite well. It's the people of Palestine who have not fared well at all, partly because their leaders have so often been dedicated to the elimination of the State of Israel. But the treatment of Palestinians in the Palestinian territory, is inexcusable. I can't see how Israel justifies the construction of large Jewish settlements in Palestine, with Palestinian homes bulldozed to make room for the new construction. And there are many stories of homes being bulldozed to punish the families of people who have offended the Israeli government in some way.

But on the other hand, I think Israel has a right to survive - and it is very difficult to survive when surrounded by people who want to destroy them. So, what's a nation to do? Israel isn't doing a very good job of it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 02:06 AM

"Antisemitic....that's a matter of opinion."
An "Antisemitic"respected Israeli national newspaper - a new low in the 'let's defend Israeli State terrorism' card game, surely?
When will you people address the facts of the behaviour of the Israeli regime and how it is viewed by the "decent" world, rather than blaming others for recognising what they are doing in the name of the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI EXPANSION FORCING PALESTINIANS INTO CITY OF JERICHO
The journey from the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan to the Israeli-occupied West Bank town of Jericho takes 15 minutes. For the time being, it is free of Israeli checkpoints, soldiers, walls, but the check¬points and soldiers can return at a moment's notice.
Israel's 700km-long, -grey West Bank wall snakes its way across the West Bank close to Jerusalem on the summit of mountain range. Entering Jer¬icho, narrow streets are lined with clothing shops, garages and food stalls, bright with the primary colours of bananas, bell peppers and velvety green almonds. A fountain spouts precious water in a tiny park at the centre of this oasis town. Shoppers heavy with bags hur¬ry across the busy street.
There's not a tourist in sight, despite the fact Jericho vies with Damascus as the old¬est city in the world. Tourists shun the town and make quick tours of Tel Sultan and the 8th-century Hisham palace. They ride the telepherique to the monastery on the Mount of Temptation, where tradition holds Jesus was challenged by the devil to transform. stones into bread.

AUTONOMY
The first city in the West Bank to be granted autonomy under the 1993 Oslo accord, Jericho has been transformed from a provincial backwater into an administrative centre for the Jericho governorate and a catchment area for Palestinians being squeezed out of the Jordan Valley by expanding Israeli settlements.
In 2007, before Israel step¬ped up efforts to settle the valley, Jericho town had 18,000 residents; today it has 22,600 permanent and 2,000 temporary inhabitants. The governorate rate has a population of 55,000, including two camps housing 10,500 refugees.
Most of the temporary residents are Palestinians from Jerusalem and Ramallah. Scores of white stone houses, many with red tile roofs, have obliterated grain fields and fruit orchards.
Wealthy Jerusalemites come here because Israel refuses them permits to build in their home town. In Jericho, Israel charges huge fees for building permits, which take years to obtain and require lawyers' fees, and then it levies heavy taxes once buildings are completed.

SOMETHING NEW
"Every day there is something new to say about Jericho," says Jericho district governor Majed Fityani. "Israelis are planning to transfer Palestinians [Bedouin] living south of Nablus and Bethlehem to 46 locations," he says, including two in his district.
The Israeli aim is to "clear these areas of Palestinians in order to expand their settlement blocks. There are 39 Israeli settlements in
the Jordan Valley with a population of a maximum of 6,000 during the day and 500 at night. Israel is investing in agriculture, consuming 95 per cent of the water, and extracting minerals from the Dead Sea, making a profit of $1 billion.
"Eleven per cent of the Jordan Valley is under the settlers' control, 85 per cent is a closed military area. Palestinians have only 4 per cent."
The settlers consume 6.6 times more water than the Palestinians, who are 8-9 times more numerous. "Palestinians are not allowed to sink new artesian wells," he says. "They can only use the 200 present during Jordanian rule before 1967. Now there are 67 functioning and their salt con¬tent is high. People in the valley are planting palm trees due to salt; vegetables [formerly a main cash crop] are at a minimum."

ISRAELI SOLDIERS
Although Jericho is classified as "Area A", under full Palestinian control, he says, "every day Israeli soldiers enter the area and arrest people ... even for keeping caged birds .. . the fine is 5,000 shekels [€1,160]. Israel's aim is to say to us, 'We are the rulers here.'"
Muhieddin al-Husseini (1860-1944), the grandfather of my friend Dyala, whose family has lived in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, bought land here at the end of the 19th century and early in the 20th, dug canals and brought water from the mountains above Jericho.
Over lunch in her modest family house, the first to be built in stone here, Dyala says, "He went around on horse¬back in the mountains and befriended the outlaws... gave them food to protect his crops. He sold bananas to Jordan and Saudi Arabia, transport¬ing them across the Dead Sea by boat."
Today on his lands stand the homes of descendants who can stay only a limited number of days in Jericho if they are to retain their precious Jerusa¬lem identity cards. Israel's 2010-2020 Master Plan aims to ensure a 60:40 ratio of Jewish to Palestinian residents of Jerusalem, annexed by Israel in 1967, through administrative deportation to Jericho, other West Bank cities and abroad. The previous ratio was 70:30 but the high Palestinian birth rate and an exodus of Israelis from Jerusalem defeated the planners.

Michael Jensen in Jericho
Irish Times 5th June

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 10:45 PM

The OP is disrespected by your Elephant Talk.

Wait... I am getting something... oh. I am dizzy... it's hazy... it's becoming clearer... what's that???... a pissant? a... Holy fuck! It's a vision. I am channelling... What the fuck is wrong with you bunch of broke dick fucks that you have to make every fucking thread about you and ignore the serious plight of those people that the fucking thread was about?

Whoa... I passed out but, just before I did, I was with Spaw in my spin and he told me to tell all of you holier than thou assholes to go fuck yourselves and then ignore the thread forever on accounta that's what he actually had to do in the end because it was too much heartache and he wants me not to have any more stress than is required. I agree with him... you broke dick fucks that hijack every fucking thread you post on are not worth one point on my blood pressure scale.

Thanks, Spaw. Yer my guardian asskicker. I will sleep well tonight knowing you are looking after me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 10:24 PM

from "Antisemitic" Haaratz

Antisemitic....that's a matter of opinion.
Extremist.... that is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 09:04 PM

Just opinions Gnome? How about far better informed and far better researched opinions by people who have made a life's work out of studying and researching that period of history? Still reckon your opinion (remembering of course that you yourself have admitted that you know nothing about it) should be considered compared to theirs? Do you ignore all the facts that they bring to the argument upon which they have based their conclusions? If that is not ignoring fact then nothing is - it also by the way flies in the face of logic and reason.