BS: Phantasyfile

Subject: BS: Phantasyfile?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 10:51 AM

Just read in our local paper that some poor inadequate has been surreptitiously taking photos of schoolgirls on school busses putting them on his computer and fantasising about them.

The guy seems to have psychiatric problems, as he broke down several times in court....the Sheriff put him on the sex offenders register and will sentence him next week.

Is this a thought crime? Seems to me psychiatric help should be the order, not criminalisation?

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: meself
Date: 29 May 15 - 11:35 AM

Depends - what is the specific law that he has (presumably) broken? If, for instance, the law says that it is illegal to take photos of minors without permission, then he has broken that law, and it is not a 'thought crime' ....

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:04 PM

"Wasting away in pantyville"

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 01:54 PM

Yes maybe that's it meself, but I suppose everyone with a camera has inadvertently taken snaps with minors in them?

Can it be that to fantasise is the crime?

It just seems a strange one to be in our little local paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: meself
Date: 29 May 15 - 02:37 PM

Yes - but there are lots of laws that most of us have inadvertently or knowingly broken; e.g., against trespassing, jaywalking, loitering, prowling, public drunkenness, creating a disturbance, living off the avails - whoops! not that one - but no one would bother laying a charge unless there was perceived to be some related problem, e.g., invasion of privacy, preventing someone from getting a good night's sleep, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:14 PM

There will be two schools of thought here I would imagine.
1. Boys will be boys.
2. What if it was YOUR daughter he had photographed?

Ding, ding. Round 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:45 PM

I am a good friend of the editor, I shall ask his views.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 15 - 03:55 AM

Link, please. Having fantasies is not a crime. Nor is taking photographs in public places. There is more to this that we are being led to believe.

Pete. Go back to look who started the thread and then have a good think about your last statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:21 AM

Apparently the man travelled on buses which were also used by pupils from the local secondary school.
He used his mobile phone to surreptitiously take pics of schoolgirls...not indecent.
One of the girls thought he was acting strangely and reported to her parents, who went to the police.
The police traced the guy and found the pics on his computer...he broke down and admitted to viewing the pics and fantasising about them.

He was charged, appeared in court, placed on sex offenders register and will be sentenced next week.
Still think this is more of a job for psychiatric services than criminal justice.

BTW.....Why do some of you think I cannot be trusted? I never knowingly lie and give my views plainly.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:28 AM

Not saying you cannot be trusted, ake. Just that there is more to this than you have said. None of the actions you have detailed above are grounds for a court case as far as I can see. If you provide a link to somewhere giving details of the case we may be able to determine what he has really been tried for.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:42 AM

If this has been reported in the press it should be a simple matter to provide a link to the article, why the reticence to provide one.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:45 PM

There is something about school uniforms that attracts a certain (loathesome) sort of man. My old school uniform was an English style gym slip. A potato sack would have been more flattering and more alluring. It was one of the few garments I have ever owned that made me look flat chested. Two of my sister's classmates were mistaken for nuns.
But there was a certain type of male, (We called them perverts and dirty old men) who found the things attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Musket
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:39 AM

There are usually assessments made as part of pleadings that can decide whether someone is fit to plead or fit to serve sentence.

Violating the person of a minor by taking photographs of them for fantasising, if it can be proven beyond doubt is in itself in contravention of a number of laws so in principle is a matter for the criminal courts.

Mental illness is not necessarily the same as personality disorder. In order for a psychiatric assessment to diagnose mental illness it must be either a curative or palliative condition. If personality disorder were an illness then any crime could easily be seen as irrational.

The two aspects of this case that those charged with dealing with it must ask themselves are; is he a danger to himself or others? Does society need protecting from him?

Courts don't get it right all the time and as a past prison health inspector I have seen many people jailed for exhibiting their mental illness and in forensic care, I have seen many bad people for whom their personality rather than an illness caused the event that put them in hospital.

As ever, if this is to be debated, more information, preferably objective information is needed.

In the meantime, just leave your camera at home eh Akenaton?

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:47 AM

Violating the person of a minor by taking photographs of them for fantasising, if it can be proven beyond doubt is in itself in contravention of a number of laws so in principle is a matter for the criminal courts.

That is interesting and something I was unaware of. It does mean that my question was warranted though as there is obviously more to this than meets the eye and, as you say, more objective information is required. I do suspect the issue has been raised with a certain agenda in mind but I am willing to be proved wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:49 AM

No other information is available other than what has been reported, except in the court records.

Perhaps the guy had previous convictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:57 AM

We haven't read the report though Akenaton, for reasons only known to yourself you have refused to put a link to the article. A link requested by both Dave and I.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 08:31 AM

The only information I have not given is the man's name, I don't think it is appropriate to do so on an open forum and it would not aid discussion.
There is no link to the article available as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 15 - 08:37 AM

If the information is in the public domain, as you indicated in the OP, what would be the problem? IMO, it seems a bit sketchy, and is odd to open a thread with little information, seemingly for discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 May 15 - 08:44 AM

Not much to go on ake but as a side issue, I do worry about other people's interpretation of "thought" and photography. I must admit regular photos taken on the bus seems a bit weird to me but we seem to live in an age where even taking a shot of a kid smiling and eating an ice cream on the end of Cromer pier could be seen by some as being perverted rather than say trying to capture a happy atmosphere.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 May 15 - 08:45 AM

Akenaton,

Presumably you opened the thread in order that a discussion could take place. However with such limited information as you have deigned to provide no one can offer any objective thoughts into the case.

If as you state this has been reported in your local newspaper the individuals name and location is in the public domain and if as you say it has been reported in the press there is every likelihood of that newspaper having a website presence. Each newspaper from the Aberdeen Evening Express through the alphabet down to the West Lothian News has a website.

One is then drawn to conclude that you have some hidden agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 09:02 AM

Raggytash ...I think you are paranoid.

I have searched and found no link, the information I have provided is condensed from the court report. There is nothing else of interest in the report other than personal details of the accused.

What on earth would my "hidden agenda" be in this case.

Guest jon makes some interesting comments on this subject

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 10:50 AM

Ake, can you give us the name of the newspaper, and
the city it's associated with?

Assuming (as I do assume) that the newspaper has a
web presence, someone here should be able to find
its site, and go from there.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:10 AM

Name the newspaper and the article and let people look for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:06 PM

Could this be the man, that cannot be named? Or, another?


Man of mystery? 

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:15 PM

I suspect taking pictures of folks in a public area is not an illegal act. The issue may have a legal implication when you use these photos for a variety of purposes?


Taking photographs of children in public has become a fraught issue 

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:29 PM

Hi Dave.....there is a website, but no link to court proceedings.

I don't like to give personal details of the man involved, only his name has been reported, as I don't think that is relevant to this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:33 PM

No Ed, that is not the man but I think the circumstances are similar.

Perhaps we could get on with discussing whether or not this is a crime and stop obsessing about my motives for starting the thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:48 PM

Based on the information given there is nothing to discuss. With the exception of yourself we know nothing of the case and cannot discern for ourselves whether or not a crime has been committed. Thus we have to rely upon the opinion of the sheriff who had access to the facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:48 PM

I dont believe I commented on your motives-if that comment was pointed towards me.

Regardless, I supplied a link to stimulate potential discussion, if the case is similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:02 PM

No I didn't mean you Ed, and the link you provided is interesting and relevant.


We seem to be determined to obliterate childhood, paedophilia is extremely rare and our children are being constrained by media induced panic....according to your article.

The man in the local paper obviously has problems regarding teenage girls, but I don't know if "fantasising" could be called a crime in the legal sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Ed T
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:13 PM

I suspdct the crime of voyeurism could come into play?


Voyeurism- "spying" on people for sexual stimulation. 

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:25 PM

Interesting article Ed.

I don't think we have any of me from primary school sports days but maybe not too many parents thought to take them and there were not many of us. My year consisted of 3 boys and 2 girls.

I do remember the father of a child the year younger than me used to come with a fancy camera. We never thought "perverted" but used to think he was just "flashy/posing". I got to know this son (now RIP - brain tumour) better in my adult years. His father (and son followed in to) was an optician who I guess had a general interest in devices with good lenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:32 PM

Hmm yes, but I suppose if the pictures were not indecent, the culprit would have to admit "fantasising" for a crime to have been committed.

So the crime is actually the fantasy element?

In the case which I referred to the suspect did in fact admit to "fantasising"

The whole thing seems a bit Orwellian to me.

I thought "voyeurism" was simply a perversion, but I can see how it could be a public nuisance.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 15 - 02:22 PM

Perhaps we could get on with discussing whether or not this is a crime

How do we know if it is a crime or not seeing as we have little or no information to go on? Maybe we could discuss the case of the man in Keighley who did something unsavoury and was arrested for it? Or the man in Skipton who may or may not have crapped on the town hall steps? Or maybe we could just make something up and pretend it is a court case?

What a ridiculous premise. Give us some information and then it may just be a discussion point but until them it is nothing but speculation and gossip.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 May 15 - 02:32 PM

Argyll.. I remember it for a couple of childhood holidays, first one when I was under 10 and based on a farm in Southend near Campbeltown.


Had a great time.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 05:09 PM

Yes Jon, Argyll is indeed beautiful.
I am in Southend quite often, although I live quite a distance away in road mileage......"Oh...Mull of Kintyre" :0).

Come back and see us some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 05:52 PM

Totally OT, ake. But would you know where Carskey beach is. And would my memory be correct? I think that was the one with a herd of cattle and a white bull called Ferdinand.

We stopped at a farm called "High Catterdale" which we jokingly called "Low Doggerdale". Very nice and friendly.

I think I've only visited Scotland thrice. First was largely down that "bottom end". Second largely on Skye (Oh the far far Cullins?) with a boat trip which IIRC called on Uist before Lewis/Harris?

Last one was a failed attempt to get to John O Groats on a motorbike with a friend. It was 81 and we were on the dole and skint. Had to turn back and wound up stopping a night in Callandar. We'd hagglled the B&B down to our pretty near last £5 each and in the AM, we had this big bloke pretty near standing over us suggesting we ate all of the porridge, bacon, etc. he'd prepared, (quite correctly) suggesting this would be our last chance of a decent meal before getting home to (then) Wales and that we needed to eat. Rekon he fed us the room's cost in food!

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:22 PM

I'm going down to Carradale tomorrow, I'll get some info. I have friends who have lived there for ever. Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:36 PM

Cheers. Now you say Caradle, I'm wondering whether that was the place with the long flat beech with cattle on.

Anyway, I look forward to the info, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Penny S.
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:39 PM

What occurs to me is that the word fantasising is being used instead of something else, and that something else is more obviously sexual and might imply a step on the way to something which might be more interfering with the girls in some way.
What do you think fantasising means in this context?

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:46 PM

Here you go Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:52 PM

At least memory is correct in thinking there was a Carskey beach then ake! I don't think that was the one where we saw cattle.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:59 PM

Fantasising was the word used in the report Penny.

Don't know what was in the mans head, but the "fantasising" may or may not have been of a sexual nature.

I don't know if the law should pry into our private thoughts, I have known adult men in the building trade who "fancied" girls much younger.

I agree with Lady Jean in finding such behaviour "loathsome", but would hesitate to criminalise them for being weak and stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 15 - 07:25 PM

Do these girls look familiar Jon?

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 May 15 - 07:28 PM

"What do you think fantasising means in this context?"

For me, maybe going somewhere I don't want to go? Please don't get me wrong here. I have only had a sexual relationship with one woman and I was in my late 30s then. Still you can fall madly in love with your own "ideal woman" (have done that twice). The one I (biblically speaking) "knew" turned out to have a bf in prison and things got rather messy...

For me, maybe a fantasy could be that first small step or something that leads to a pit you don't know how (or by that time perhaps even don't want (eg. after I was "in love") to get out of.

Any of that thinking is of course just me and how I've found life.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 May 15 - 07:36 PM

At least I see some cattle in one ake but otherwise, not at the momenet, There may be an old slide or two (parents had a 50s/60s brownie and most got shot to slide) I can find.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 01:01 PM

With just the bare details, a sentence does seem a bit heavy handed. I would have thought that a severe warning and/or help would be more appropriate IMO.                      Enjoyed the pics ake.   Wife and I had a lovely holiday in a lodge at Inveraray ....memories !.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:00 PM

The first point to be borne in mind is that different jurisdictions have different laws. It is possible that English and Scottish law differ in this area, and since Ake says "sheriff" we can be pretty sure that the events took place in Scotland. It is very likely that US law (or laws, since different states have different laws too) is so different that commentary from a US perspective is almost certainly irrelevant.

The second is that without a better clue as to what crime was held to have been committed it is very hard to form a view as to what was going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:35 AM

Not to worry, Ake. I've just had a look through a box of slides. Not the best of pictures (which would have been taken with a Kodak Brownie 44) and I might have mirrored the image but this one is marked Carradale. I'd suggest late 60s.

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:57 AM

Thanks Jon, I guess Ferdinand is the big white fellow?
Sorry, I could not get any further info about "High Catterdale", as I had to change my plans due to extreme weather. I'll contact you later
Thanks for the chat...Ake.