BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,rh1
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:52 PM

It is what it is!

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:51 PM

(I must be butter, 'cause I'm on a roll!)

Ebbie's comment reminds me:

Contrary to Scripture, God made Woman first. And He made her with three breasts. The woman thought for a moment, then said, "God, to all intents and purposes, I really think just two breast will be sufficient." God put forth his thought and removed (painlessly) the third breast, leaving her with the standard two.

God stood there with the surplus breast in His hand and thought: "Now, what can I do with a useless boob?"

Then God made Man.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:40 PM

Hmm...lotsa problems here....

Can a vegan perform cunnilingus without compromising his principles?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:29 PM

Where does a gay, black, carnivorous nudist fit in all of this....?

Don Firth

P. S. For that matter, a transvestite nudist has a real problem!

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,rh1
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 12:58 PM

What is this work coming too?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 01:10 PM

The quote was by a yank, Richard. In Yankistan it's "practice" in every context. Obviously, I don't like it any more than you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:56 AM

In England "Practise" is a verb.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 02:46 AM

sheesh, Steve S. Two to a customer only, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 03:57 PM

"Warning..nudity practiced here. If that offends you, don't knock"

Cor, you'd have thought that a nudist gathering would welcome extra knockers...

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 02:05 PM

"If you had nudist friends, would you expect them to wear clothes in your house, and would you expect them to let you wear clothes if you visited them?"

I knew a couple many years ago who had a sign on their door.."Warning..nudity practiced here. If that offends you, don't knock" It kept most surveys away. They didn't require you to be nude for a short visit, but expected it if you were going to be there for awhile- like at a party.

Silent prayer? Sure... even better, a "moment of silence" in which some could offer silent prayer, and others could simply take a moment to relax & reflect. I have been to several gathering where this is done as everyone held hands.

I am not sure why 'some' Christian groups feel that 'God' won't pay attention unless they pray fervently and aloud, invoking Jesus at everyone...Jew, atheist, Muslim. I was a member of a society whose topic was woodworking, but which had a majority of conservative Christians. Several Jewish members and atheists learned to time their bathroom break just before the meeting convened.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 09:41 AM

I heartily recommend silent prayer as a useful workaround. I'd even make it voluntary.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 08:56 AM

For the second time only I think this anonymous voice from the back row agrees completely with Keith A of Hertford.

I can't remember hearing a grace in which the sentiment expressed was not reasonable in broadly humanist (or similar) terms. Were it not for a leading 'Oh Lord' or similar I would regularly be happy to join in with a hearty 'Amen'.

I think that one conservative, but very experienced, priest uses the form "We give thanks for" rather than "We thank you for" as a courtesy to in-laws and other guests.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 07:57 AM

Most serious nudists practice their nudity in their leisure hours in specialised places that cater for such things. Not generally at work, out shopping, or visiting friends.

Again, not exactly a good analogy.

The sensible answer has already been stated earlier on: simply find out what the expectations of the event are on the part of the host, and then decide whether to go or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 15 - 07:30 AM

If you had nudist friends, would you expect them to wear clothes in your house, and would you expect them to let you wear clothes if you visited them?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 02:36 PM

This is a question of ettiquette rather than ethics. Should a guest accede to the host's norms, or should the host make an effort to accommodate the guests? Most hosts will do the latter, and will do their best to provide food that suits their guests, whether vegetarian, kosher, gluten-free etc. Most guests will do their best to eat what is put in front of them.

I think the underlying complaint is that vegetarians usually seem expect their host to accommodate their dietary preferences, but won't do the same when they are the host themselves. Sauce for the goose, if that isn't an unfortunate metaphor. Where this argument fails is that few people, if any, are total carnivores, and most will also eat vegetables.

I'm one who regards most vegetables as mere garnish, and my heart usually sinks when I'm told to expect vegetarian fare. It usually turns out to be utterly delicious.

While I have some sympathy with the idea that vegetarian hosts should cater for their carnivore guests, it is actually no hardship to have one
meal without meat. Acknowledging the host's sensibilities should be part of being a good guest. My advice is to go to the party and enjoy the food you're offered. If you really can't cope without meat get a burger on the way home.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 10:21 AM

Alternatively, what if a believer, with many friends who believe, demands that everyone should say grace before they eat?
This is not hypothetical. It has happened to me on a number of occasions.

Has it really Steve?
I find that extraordinary.
I have been at many, many meals where grace has been said but I have never, ever known more than one person to say it.

All that has ever been expected of the others present is the normal consideration of not interrupting anyone talking, but never to say it themselves too.

Even a mumbled "Amen" is entirely voluntary and optional.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:39 AM

That was me @ 04:28 AM

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:30 AM

I think the opening premise of "Eating habits cf Sexual habits" is a bit false. If I understand the question correctly we are being asked if tolerance should be applied to the meat eaters in the same way as it is now applied to black and gay people. Well, the two cannot be compared. Being black or gay is not a choice while eating meat or not is. OK, it may seem a little intolerant of meat eaters but by insisting that you should be able to eat meat wherever you want, is that not being intolerant of a strict vegetarian lifestyle? Maybe the question should be more like eating habits cf religious habits then we would be comparing like with like?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:28 AM

A parallel could be drawn to schools who think that they know better than parents and confiscate items of food that they consider "unhealthy" from pupils' lunch boxes.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:02 AM

As the vegetarians are probably opposed to meat on the basis that they see meat eating as unnecessarily 'cruel' rather than simply aesthetically 'disgusting' their objection is I would imagine an ethical one.

I think asking you not to bring meat into their home, is more akin to your guests asking you not to hit your girlfriend in their home (ethical objection) rather than asking you not to kiss her (aesthetic).

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 06:16 PM

Would it be acceptable for an atheist with atheist friends to insist that no religious symbols be worn?

Turn that on its head. Would any Christian you know, in deference to the atheists they knew were present, refrain from wearing their crucifix necklaces or fish symbols on their cars? Do any Christians you know insist on the removal of wayside pulpits or external crosses from churches in deference to the many atheists or people of non-Christian religions who would otherwise have to see them? No, thought not.

Alternatively, what if a believer, with many friends who believe, demands that everyone should say grace before they eat?

This is not hypothetical. It has happened to me on a number of occasions. It is an ignorant and insufferable thing to do. Unfortunately, unlike atheists, who have no beliefs but lots of doubts, many Christians and members of several other religions have this delusion that their beliefs are incontrovertible truths and that the rest of us should put up with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 03:04 PM

If the OP feels the need to resort to moral casuistry over the situation, they are so far out of sympathy with the hosts' value system that maybe they should just have nothing to do with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 02:03 PM

A couple of points.

There are several reasons for being a vegetarian/vegan:

1)Perceived health issues (actual or not)... fairly reasonable.
2)Environmental reasons: supply & demand of meat.... also reasonable in some places.
3)Financial issues: growing a garden is much cheaper than buying meat. If you are a hunter, it's different.
4)Cultural: The world being what it is, some people eat things that others find 'odd'... I would have great difficulty with roasted squirrel brains, even though I don't object morally.
5)BBES...."Big Brown Eyes Syndrome": the usual basis for 'moral' reasons. Some of this is religious (Jainism and others), some just generalized objection to killing other creatures, which varies up & down the scale according to whether creatures are warm-blooded...etc.

Now, to these I ask, when did the religious/moral concerns arise? After all, we are descended from omnivores for at least hundreds of thousands of years, it not millions. I doubt our 500th great-grandparents thought much about it- they were hungry, they ate what they could find. Some eventually did little ceremonies to honor & thank the 'spirits' of their meals... but they ate 'em anyway.
I suspect that as humans' ability to rationalize & imagine stuff like 'souls' developed, so did 'concern' for animals.

I do know that at several folk gatherings I attend each year, the problems of the hosting kitchen staff are more than I would want to take on. To the natural allergies & other medical concerns, we have the whole range of religious & BBES and just plain finicky eaters. I know several people who have such a level of concern that they just bring their own meals.

If I were invited to a gathering that sounded like I would not find anything to eat, and was not allowed to even bring my own, I would simply find a convenient excuse to not attend.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 01:26 PM

But with the veggie v meateater argument, if a M/E goes to a veggie house they eat veg. When they eat at home they still eat veg (usually), but with added meat.

So going to a veggie home doesn't mean that you've got to eat something that you don't normally eat.

But at the end of the day, if you're not happy with what you're being invited to, then don't go.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 10:18 AM

If I'm invited to a "do " with strings attached, and I don't like the strings, I don't go.

It's really that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 05:19 AM

Alternatively, what if a believer, with many friends who believe, demands that everyone should say grace before they eat?

Well, one answer to that in the UK is that similar things happen more often than you might think. Parliament, for example, opens every day with prayers (Christian.) While attendance is voluntary, there are less seats than MPs, so if you want to sit down on busy days ...

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 05:12 AM

Would it be acceptable for an atheist with atheist friends to insist that no religious symbols be worn?

Alternatively, what if a believer, with many friends who believe, demands that everyone should say grace before they eat?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 04:26 AM

Stim, if all those invited share the joke, it's fine - but then they would not ask Mudcat. Good pals sometimes call each other, or themselves, by names that would normally be considered derogatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 04:08 AM

It was an example. What I was trying to get at is that it is not necessarily an 'equal exchange' of consideration. I have no real knowledge of why these particular vegetarians are so, but one possibility is that they see a moral objection to eating meat. If so, for the meat eater to have a vegetarian meal when they visit has no moral cost to him, but that would not be the case when he visits them and expected meat. so it is not an equal exchange of consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 03:58 AM

The analogy between smoking and vegetarianism isn't quite right, I'm afraid.

What we eat affects us, healthwise, individually. Neither of us will physically affect the other if I eat beef and you eat a nut roast - but both of us will feel the effects of smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 03:01 AM

Not sure I follow that, Dave. Take another example. You are a smoker, they aren't. When they visit you, out of consideration you choose not to smoke while they are around.   Surely you are not implying they should smoke if you visit them? Or even, necessarily, allow you to smoke in their house when cigarette smells could linger there for days?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 02:34 AM

Vegetarians seem inclined to force their own eating habits on others, if I invite any of several vegetarian friends to eat at my home, I wouldn't dream of offering them meat, but if I go to eat at their houses I am forced to eat by their rules ie. strictly vegetarian, no consideration there at all.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 11:20 PM

It's not a targeted insult if you have a sense of humor, Grishka.

As to the rest, I am not sure what the sexual orientation and ethnicity of party guests in the 1920s and 1940s has to do with not bringing a dead animal to a party in 2015.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 02:33 PM

That was I - forgot to sign, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 02:32 PM

It's no different from saying a gathering is going to be alcohol-free

It is completely different. Alcohol-free parties allow dry ex-alcoholics to remain unrecognized, which I think is a flawless moral motive. Inviting for "a vegetarian gathering" or "bring your own vegetarian food" is less well justified, but can be accepted.

The term "dead animals" amounts to a targeted insult, comparable to derogatory names for ethnic backgrounds or sexual orientations.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 02:22 PM

No comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 01:38 PM

Excellent - can I join you?

I just fancy a nice fat, juicy cucumber...

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: meself
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 01:34 PM

I am!

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 01:24 PM

What have vegetables done to deserve that - being kissed by a complete stranger?

Disgusting! You should be locked up.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: meself
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:31 PM

Okay, I think I've got it - if I go to this party, I can kiss a vegetable, but not a dead animal ....

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars laink
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 08:27 AM

Right on, janie !.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 08:23 AM

People know better than to invite me to alcohol-free events. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:27 AM

It's been normal in the entire civilized world for decades. Live with it. It's no different from saying a gathering is going to be alcohol-free, have you never been to an event like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:22 AM

I totally understand it.

We no longer say "you cannot kiss your girlfriend in my house, because she's black and that offends me".

We no longer say "You cannot kiss your same sex partner in my house, because that offends me".

But it is apparently (judging by those above who seem almost to get it) in Mudland normal to say "You can't eat any dead animal in my house, because that offends me".

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:06 AM

Maybe when the host who is giving the party discovers this thread he or she will explain it.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:45 PM

When you ace that, please let the rest of us know :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: meself
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:43 PM

Ah! Many thanks. I think I'll have the OP figured out within the next few hours .....

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:35 PM

meself asked, "Who or what is a 'friend of Dorothy' . . ."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_of_Dorothy

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Janie
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:30 PM

Intolerant would be "If you are a meat eater, you are not welcomed in my house, even if you don't bring meat to eat."

Intolerant would be "If you smoke cigarettes, you can never be my friend, even if you never smoke cigarettes around me, always use mouthwash and keep a set of clothes on hand such that I never get even a whiff of tobacco smoke when I am around you."

There is a difference between setting clear boundaries about what is OK or not OK on one's own turf and being intolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Scabbie dug
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:16 PM

Let's get this straight. You and your partner who would appear to be a black lesbian have been invited to a meal by vegetarian friends. Go there and enjoy the meal, or if you do not feel that you would be comfortable there,
politely decline the invitation.