Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Shankly V Ferguson

Raggytash 07 Jul 15 - 06:04 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 15 - 06:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 15 - 06:33 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 15 - 07:32 AM
Raggytash 07 Jul 15 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Ian 07 Jul 15 - 08:43 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Jul 15 - 08:48 AM
Raggytash 07 Jul 15 - 08:51 AM
Raggytash 07 Jul 15 - 08:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 15 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Up the Owls 07 Jul 15 - 12:29 PM
Raggytash 07 Jul 15 - 12:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 15 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Kampervan 07 Jul 15 - 12:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 15 - 01:28 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 15 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Modette 07 Jul 15 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Ian 07 Jul 15 - 03:57 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jul 15 - 04:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 15 - 04:25 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 15 - 05:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jul 15 - 05:09 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 15 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,6.24 pm guest 07 Jul 15 - 06:30 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 15 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,6.24 07 Jul 15 - 07:08 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 15 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,624 07 Jul 15 - 07:41 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 15 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,Olddude 07 Jul 15 - 11:41 PM
GUEST,Olddude 07 Jul 15 - 11:46 PM
GUEST,MikeL2 08 Jul 15 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,MikeL2 08 Jul 15 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Up the Owls 08 Jul 15 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,Olddude 08 Jul 15 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Ian 08 Jul 15 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,MikeL2 08 Jul 15 - 02:35 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Jul 15 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Up The Owls 08 Jul 15 - 04:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jul 15 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,HuwG at work 09 Jul 15 - 07:12 AM
Dave Sutherland 09 Jul 15 - 08:22 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 15 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 09 Jul 15 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,MikeL2 10 Jul 15 - 06:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jul 15 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,MikeL2 10 Jul 15 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jul 15 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Up the Owls 11 Jul 15 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,6.24 11 Jul 15 - 01:58 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 06:04 AM

One poor misguided youth has suggested that Bill Shankly was greater than a supreme being and that Alex Ferguson was worse than an incarnate devil.

Lets have a look at the statistics. Firstly it is very difficult to compare their playing careers Ferguson being a forward and Shankly being a right half, but based on the fact he represented Scotland at full International level and Ferguson didn't one is led to believe he may have been a better player. (it could have been that during Fergusons playing career there were better forwards than he)

In terms of managerial honours I'm afraid Shankly doesn't come anywhere close to Ferguson.

                  Shankly                               Ferguson
1st Division         3                                     0
Premiership          0                                     13
FA Cup               2                                     5
Charity Shield       4                                     10
EUFA Cup             1                                     1
EUFA Champions       0                                     2


and that's just part of Fergusons Manchester United career he amassed a total of 38 trophies with United and a further 12 trophies with St Mirren and Aberdeen including the EUFA Cup. Shankly might have been good, he might have been very good but he's was never a match for Ferguson !!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 06:19 AM

Yebbut he set Liverpool on the path to glory from the shambolic outfit he inherited. And how could he win the Premier League when there wasn't one then! He invented the great Liverpool culture that made it easy for his successors. As for Fergie, he was the manager of Man U. Man U I tell you. I find it hard enough to even type that, let alone remind you of it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 06:33 AM

See what I mean! Once you start justifying opinions with verifiable but dubious facts all hell let's loose. Where did you get those figures from Raggy? Bet they were in some left wing rag and not discussed by eminent footballists (Or is it footballoons?) in leading internet cafes. ;-P


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 07:32 AM


                Years   Prem/D1    EC/CL       EUEFA
Bob Paisley          9   6 (0.67%)   3 (0.33%)   2 (0.22%)   
Alec Ferguson       26 13 (0.50%)   2 (0.08%)   1 (0.04%)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:19 AM

What the **** has Paisley to do this discussion, someone poor misguided youth suggested Shankly was a better manager than Ferguson.
I off course felt duty bound to correct his wayward thinking. Then some anonymous guest sticks his oar in were it ain't wanted. This forum's getting worse ......... worse I tell you :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:43 AM

There is no doubt that Shankly was a great manager, but his achievements don't compare to Ferguson.
I would have thought a more equal comparison would be Shankly and Busby.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:48 AM

Who gives a shit about moronball?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:51 AM

Come to think of it, in that famous scouse song "The Leaving of Liverpool" the singers says that when he returns he will support united.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:52 AM

Mr Bridge, go and wash your mouth out with soap, you philistine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 09:57 AM

I would say a lot of people probably do, Richard. While I am not a huge fan I do enjoy watching the odd big match and I am sure that when my American cousin, who is a big fan, visits we shall enjoy a local game or two as well. To tar people as morons for enjoying football is nearly as bad as the stuff that mainstream media do with folk music and Morris dance. If you don't like it, fine. No one is saying you should, but to deliberately go on a thread that is obviously about football managers smacks of trolling to me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Up the Owls
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 12:29 PM

Bill Shankley said to Bertie Mee
Have you heard of the Ivory?
He said no, I don't think so, but I've heard of {insert your team's kop end name}

Heard on most grounds when I were knee high to a grasshopper.

Bridge - Go away please, the grown ups wish to discuss man things in peace.

Ferguson has the record, but Shankley said that football isn't a way of life, it's far important than that.

Score draw on that one.

Obviously, Ferguson didn't have the accolade of his predecessor. Big Ron got to manage us for a while. And stuffed Ferguson's lot in the league cup final. I was there, and nobody can ever take that away from me. Or John Sheridan....

Liverpool? They talk as if they used to be a big team. MUFC still are.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 12:45 PM

Who are the "Owls" do they only play after dark and eat mice?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 12:54 PM

I remember it being

"Bertie Mee said to Don Revie
Have you heard of the North Bank, Highbury" etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 12:55 PM

The actual quote from Mr Shankly (erstwhile manager of Grimsby Town FC)was


Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that.'


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 01:28 PM

Out of interest, without looking it up, can anyone date my little ditty on the assumption that Mr Mee was managing the Gunners at the time?

I think it was probably early 70's but not being a big fan (particularly of southern ponce sides) I can't really remember.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 01:41 PM

Don't just say God, say Shankly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 03:41 PM

Neither of them could lick Brian Clough's boots.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 03:57 PM

Just looked Bertie Mee up. He managed Arsenal from 66 to 76.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 04:20 PM

One must be, to an extent, pragmatic. Whatever one thinks of him as a person in comparison with the others here cited, it is surely a demonstrable fact that, under the managership of Alex Ferguson, Manchester United became, and for the rest of his tenure remained, one of the most consistently successful clubs in the history of League Football; which status disintegrated completely under his immediate successor, who didn't last long despite his having inherited all the personnel and facilities which Sir Alex relinquished to him, and has never been recovered since.

As a lifelong Arsenal supporter,I have no axe to grind in this matter: but these appear to me to be demonstrable facts. What may have been the mysterious Ingredient·X in his personality and attainments which enabled Sir Alex to attain such success can probably never be identified; but I think it indubitable that such existed, and that he has an unassailable claim to being included among the very greatest of football managers of all time.

≈M≈


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 04:25 PM

Tsk, Ian. I said without looking it up! But good to know I was at least in the right era :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:03 PM

Well, Modette, I'm a big Cloughie fan too. As for Michael and his paean to Fergie, well Michael has the misfortune of being an "Arsenal fan". To us hard men of t'north, "Arsenal" and "fan", when placed together, denote "soft southern b*ell*end".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:09 PM

Cloughie could certainly add one of his famous quotes to this thread.

"We talk about it for 20 minutes and then we decide I was right."

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 06:24 PM

What Fergie did with Aberdeen was some achievement,breaking the old firm chokehold.
             Fergie took over when UTD was a shambles, for years living on sentiment and past glories.When he took charge he changed everything, built an academy which produced a group of young players that made English football able to hold its head up again.Made UTD a brand that was marketable globally.Made us for a while the richest club on the planet a position we vie for every season still.As well as the trophies he won, C'mon the man is a legend.
             Bayern Munich,Real,Barcelona and others all visited Manchester to study the Fergie method,defo a man before his time, the proof being the way clubs are now run.His inovations and changes influenced all big clubs in Europe,he was a serious game changer.
            Obviously agree with the OP, but bantering Scousers feels like mocking the afflicted and not fun anymore, which must bug the shite out of them.8)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,6.24 pm guest
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 06:30 PM

Fergie on form here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu_DJ76RDRM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 06:51 PM

Fergie taught Man U to win games whilst playing badly. The kind of football genius we don't need.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,6.24
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 07:08 PM

Ooh Steve, sour grapes 8) just breathe release and let it go,he's retired now.
   Some of the football under Fergie was sublime so you're way of the mark.As for winning games when you're not playing to your best,that is a sign of a well managed/coached team,but you know that I'm sure.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 07:25 PM

Well, Wayne Rooney's uncle - oops, I mean GUEST 6.24 - I like my footie to be edgy and exciting. The only time United ever managed that was in the '99 Champions' League final, and only then for three minutes at the end after playing like a bunch of tossers for 89 minutes. We don't want to be paying good money to see "well-managed teams" scraping "victories" after playing for 80 minutes like three-legged cart-horses.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,624
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 07:41 PM

So that's us done then eh 8) I'll leave you with it to ponder further,or not.I know,that because your a footy fan, you know he was a great great manager.I understand your lack of judgement though,when Liverpool dominated it used to bug the shit out of me.With time passing I can acknowledge they had some great teams,probably too soon for you to get some clarity ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 08:37 PM

Heheh. And to think that this thread had the potential to turn exceptionally nasty indeed. After all, there's God, there's religion, there's heaven...then there's Shankly. But in the end we've agreed to differ. Just don't even THINK of ever heading west on the East Lancs Road, that's all... :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 11:41 PM

Hands down shankly, no contest


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 11:46 PM

Best manager ever in my yank opinion shankly


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:19 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:39 AM

Don't know what happened there !!

Hi Steve

United under Fergie were certainly not only a " grind it out Team".

I haven't got the statistics to hand but I would bet that under Fergie Man U scored more goals than any other side in the Premier league.

I can remember when Fergie was criticised because United were "leaking" goals. Fergie's reply was simple, I don't care how many we concede as long as we score more at the other end.
And they usually did. Names like Van Nistlerouy (sic), Dwight Yorke, Andy Cole, Mark Hughes. Eric Cantona, and more Recently Ronaldo, Giggs, Rooney and Van Persie all were regualar scorers when United played complete attacking football.

But I do agree that they knew how to win "ugly" as well. Surely that is a sign of tactical insight by a great manager?

It's Fergie for me but Shankly was a great Manager and a likeable man.

The last season Fergie ran the club they won the Premier League by 11 clear points.

With more or less the same players ( with others added) the last two managers have produced virtually nothing.

To me that is a sign of how good Fergie really was.

Regards

MikeL2

.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Up the Owls
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:49 AM

Noting a few posts above that Michael is a gunners fan..

My neice's lad asked me if I ever went to Highbury. Yes, I said, many times. He asked how it compares to The Emirates.

So Michael.. How do Emirates and Highbury compare to the old ground at Woolwich?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 09:59 AM

Mike, I think I have to agree with you. I think if we talk best manager it's hands down shankly for me, but overall, you are right with fergie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 12:19 PM

How about Fergie to replace Sep Blatter?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:35 PM

Hi Dan

Yes it is a difficult one to compare two truly great managers like these two.

Hope things are well with you and yours.

Kind Regards

Mike


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 03:34 PM

UtO -- LoL.

Haven't actually ever been to Emirates, tho have gone past on the train. Or to Highbury for years before that. How many years? Why, last time I was there, Dennis Compton scored a hat-trick...

Nowadays my football is on the telly, I fear.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Up The Owls
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:36 PM

There you have it.

Watch good football from Arsenal and see them lose or watch negative tactics interlaced with individual skill by Man Utd and watch them win.

Or watch Liverpool and lower your expectations.

Of course, you could join Musket at Hillsborough and be on top of the world. Not only the best football ever (faith position - see other threads) but a belly full of balti* pie at half time. The best rats coffins around.



* Had a hit with Mary's Boy Child.

Nice to make Michael lol. What wonderful words these young whippersnappers use eh? Nice to see him acknowledge my posts for that matter. Must be a "good day."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:26 AM

I had to look it up because I had forgotten but my favourite manager of all time (at the time) was Dent Oliver. (Clue before you click: Not football)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,HuwG at work
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 07:12 AM

A story once attributed to Bill Shankly:

A player was stunned on the field. As the trainer tried to revive him on the touchline, Bill asked "Can he carry on?"

The trainer replied "Boss, he's concussed. He doesn't even know who he is."

Bill said "Great! Tell him he's Pele and send him back on!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:22 AM

So nice to see that Brian Clough gets a couple of mentions in this debate and where I think that he wins out over the others is that when he achieved his moments of success it was with unfashionable, sleepy second division clubs who had hardly attracted the attention of the National football world until he took over there. His transforming of journeymen footballers into European champions is unlikely to be repeated any time soon. How we at Nottingham Forest wish he was back, at his best, among us these days; meanwhile Derby still are a little club.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:35 AM

Keep the ball on the floor. Pass it to a red shirt. Better still, give it to Robbo. There you go, Cloughie's encyclopaedia of tactics!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:38 AM

Dave Sutherland, you mean like Ferguson did with Aberdeen? :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 06:24 AM

Hi Dave

I remember Dent Oliver very well. Used to go to Belle Vue Speedway every Saturday night.

Ivan Mauger, Peter Craven, Peter Collins etc. My Favourite speedway rider was Oliver Hart. I loved the leg trailing style.

Watched the Speedway then into the dance hall. Ah !! Those were the days.

Ah nostalgias's not what it was.

Regards

Mike


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:14 AM

Speedway followed by a couple of rides on the fair and the firework display was our thing. Usually missed the last bus to Manchester and had to walk to Piccadilly to get the all nighter back to Swinton. Sorry, football fans, but you can't stand in the way of regress :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:17 AM

Hi Dave

Been there ,done that. After missing the last bus, used to walk home and count the lamp-posts !!!! was in the hundreds....I know get a life...lol

Cheers

Mike


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 09:08 AM

Aye, I once hoofed it, pissed up of course, from Manchester back to Radcliffe up the old road having missed the last bus. Didn't feel a thing. Would I survive such a hike these days? :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,Up the Owls
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 09:13 AM

I'd crawl a million miles through a desert just to lick the dew off the turf at Hillsborough.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Shankly V Ferguson
From: GUEST,6.24
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 01:58 PM

The only Liverpool manager worth pitting against Fergie imo, is Joe Fagan.Here's my thinking,he joined just before Shankly and the period of their dominance.It was Joe who conjured up the "boot room" philosophy which is still the Lfc religion today.He achieved the treble like Fergie, something no other Liverpool manager has done,the UEFA cup treble doesn't count.He was both Shankly and Paisley's right hand man/coach as well as running the reserve team, bringing on some of the first teams future stars.He only managed for two successful seasons but how much of a factor was he in the previous success that Shankly and co take the credit for.
         Because of the treble and the culture he nurtured I reckon Joe was the best manager Liverpool have had,but still falls short of Fergies record/greatness. ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 13 May 6:23 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.