BS: 4x4s on green roads

Subject: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 05:42 PM

Interesting documentary on TV earlier about the use of green roads in Derbyshire for 4x4s and off road bikes. Obvious conflict of interest between walkers, horse riders and off-roaders. Being a walker and having seen some of the damage done my first instinct is to be anti-vehicle but, to be fair, people do enjoy off-roading and should be afforded the opportunity. But should it be at the risk of environmental damage and To the detriment of others? What would be a good compromise?

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: ranger1
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 05:53 PM

Dave, look up Androscoggin Riverlands State Park in Maine, USA. They have a large number of shared use trails that include ATVs, horses, hikers, and mountain bikes in the summer, and snowmobiles, snowshoes, and skis in the winter. So far, five years into the park opening, everyone seems to be playing nice together. A lot of work was done on the trails that allow ATVs in order to keep erosion to a minimum.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 05:56 PM

I also saw that, Dave. Instinctively, my sympathies were with the walkers, riders, etc., and against the motorised vehicles. However, I did appreciate the mandate of the National Parks to make the countryside accessible to everybody, so - not an easy answer.

If anything got my goat though, it was seeing the damage being done to the green roads by the 4x4 - which surely is indefensible?

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 05:58 PM

Sounds great Ranger. Maybe we can take a leaf out of that book? I wonder if the scale of our national parks compared to yours would be a factor though.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 06:11 PM

I honestly can't understand why anyone would want to defend idiots in gas-guzzling 4x4s who are wrecking the peace and quiet of what countryside we have left. As far as I'm concerned, if I came across one of these brain-deads upside down in a ditch I'd be sorely tempted to dance a jig on their undercarriage whilst waiting for the emergency services.   As you've got me all fired up, I'd also ban motorhomes completely on the grounds that the idiots who drive them should probably be in institutions anyway, and I'd tax towed caravans at £10000 per annum and restrict them to between two and five in the morning, under pain of confiscation. I feel sorry for all of us in Cornwall who have to put up with these abominations, but I feel even sorrier for those poor neighbours who have to put up with an ugly great big caravan next door to them that stays there for 50 weeks of the year.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 06:30 PM

Not in my back yard!

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 06:39 PM

Well Steve, ya can't administer for the overall public good and accommodate a variety of special-interest arseholes like the 4X4 idiots at the same time. They don't have a "right" or even a just cause to destroy property.

trails that allow ATVs in order to keep erosion to a minimum.

Yup and the best cost-effective way to keep erosion to a minimum would be to ban ATV's entirely, as any number of conservation-minded states have done.

Just because you buy an off-road vehicle does not imply the "right" to use it on public land as you see fit, and its time these yahoos realized it.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 06:43 PM

Amen to that! We need to stop indulging these friggin' idiots and stop regarding them as poor wee things with special needs.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:13 PM

Encouraging local development in Edinburgh (okay, not 4x4s, but just as worth torching):

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/cars-worth-52k-wrecked-in-fire-attack-1-3822444

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 09:20 PM

https://www.hcn.org/wotr/mountain-bikes-and-wilderness-dont-mix

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 01:32 AM

Until recently (when I deeded the land to my daughter and her husband on the premise that they needn't wait to inherit it when I die) I had a couple of acres in the country. No house; when I lived there I had a mobile home on it. There are no homes nearby; the nearest one is a quarter mile up the country road.

It is a beautiful setting: on a hillside that overlooks a plum orchard below and other seasonable blossoming things. No one has lived there since I left it nearly 30 years ago.

OK, having set the scene- my nephew is the president of an off-roading bicycle club. They create and maintain trails through the woods in various locales, they build above-ground narrow planked ways that test the skill of the most adept.

My nephew suggested that my land could be utilized for their purposes. I hesitated but eventually declined.

I've never quite decided whether I was in error. Points: Since their bikes are not mechanized they probably don't create too much noise, The club is fairly small, not more than 25 riders, my place would have been much more convenient to almost all the riders; at this time many of them must drive a couple of hours or more to get to their main arena. And there is plenty of room to pitch a few tents for overnighters.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:18 AM

Having slept on it I am more inclined to side with Steve. There is no need to use that amount of fossil fuel and destroy so much land for the sake of pleasure. Then again there is no need to drive quite as fast is there, Steve? :-) Brings me to a more serious point, where do we draw the line and who draws it?

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: BobL
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:58 AM

A big ATV isn't necessary for off-road enjoyment - a buggy or trail bike can be just as much fun, and is less environment-unfriendly. Indeed, in some conditions a bike can cause less damage than a horse (or so I read somewhere). However, as a member of the Scamp Owners Club I have to admit I'm probably biased.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:20 AM

For anyone who can access BBC iPlayer you can watch it on a link from here - Tales from the national parks

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Acorn4
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:48 AM

For most of the 4 x 4 drivers round our way "off roading" seems to mean parking on the pavement.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:19 AM

It's worth remembering, especially for our US brothers and sisters that our green lanes and holloways on our islands are often thousands of years old and are not made for any motor vehicles. They've survived for millennia with only people and horses using them, any motor powered vehicle is an imposition.

In the Peak District I used to walk my dog along a wonderful holloway, but this was increasingly used by off road motorbikes and 4x4s. The sides of this lane were steep, and when these motors appeared out of nowhere it could be a struggle to get out of the way; they were rarely for stopping. It's a miracle no-one has ever been killed up there and the lack of consideration shown for foot users was telling; the drivers were invariably male, presumably the alpha-dick swingers that like this sort of car not as a utility vehicle, but as an expression of they male insecurities. There are places folk can off-road if they wish, and as walkers and horse-riders we have a right to walk the paths of our ancestors without the imposition of noise, fumes and the vacuous, boorish attitude of the Clarksonites.

These routes are special places and the metalled, cobbled, muddy and grassy old ways should be respected for what they are and allowed to remain as places of quiet contemplation as people make their way across our ancient landscapes. Their violation by the crass, inefficient and inelegant internal combustion engine and the monsters it powers are a violation of our past, present and future. The presence of noise and speed in such areas and along such ancient pathways tells us there is something awry with our connection with the land itself; our imagination is deserting us and our appreciation of the old ways is dying fast. You can't appreciate these tracks from inside a Range Rover or HiLux, or speeding along on a dirtbike; these people ignore or simply can't comprehend the nuances of the land they are traversing. Luckily, thousands of others can.

Holloway by Adam Scovell

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:23 AM

Eloquently put, Stu. I agree with every word.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:28 AM

Yes, I must say that the poorest argument in the whole documentary was that these roads were designated for vehicles so they should continue to be used by them. No mention of what type of vehicle so going with the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

Second poorest was by a representative of the park authority who claimed that the Kinder trespass was so everyone, including 4x4 drivers, should have access to the Peak district. MacColl must be turning in his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:27 AM

I haven't hiked in the UK. I have hiked in the US. There is nothing worse than a bunch of trail bikes, mountain bikes, ATVs, or a four wheel drive vehicle come roaring down the path (either from behind or from the front) unless it's loud music cutting the fabric of the silence.

Don't get in a twist. I own a four wheel drive vehicle; it's often needed here where I live, especially in winter. I don't drive it up a trail system and, were I still hunting, I would take it as far as the road (and my skill) permitted and then walk. How else can you actually hunt and still call yourself a hunter?

But I no longer hunt; I can get my food from other sources (and folks a lot younger than I). But have spent my fair share of time back in them thar hills I can say that there is no need for loud engines, loud music (use earbuds if you must!), and loud talking and laughing. The few times I rode an ATV it was well-muffled and we moved rather quietly.

My feelings are mixed: an ATV can be useful (ranchers around here use them, as do search-and-rescue units, law enforcement, and others). I see no place for "dirt bikes" and "mountain bikes" unless they stay on marked trails and angles at least 60 degrees from the fall line (to prevent erosion). Better, give them their own place.

Horses...I don't know enough to comment.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:57 AM

Check your facts. Almost all, certainly the majority, of damage to green roads is done by farmers and forestry vehicles - and almost all the repairs are done by recreational vehicular users. Historically roads used by carts were pounded to swamps, and if you think a vehicle can make a mess, stop and inspect how deep a morass horses can create.

Eliminating historic rights for the pleasure of a bunch of wearers of goat-hair socks, who want the roads not to the standards of history but in the form of some fairytale fantasy is simply middle-class nimbyism and worse.

The recreational green-road driver knows full well - as slow as possible, only as fast as absolutely necessary. The non-stopping is a myth. Many's the time I would stop and reverse, to somewhere I could turn off my engine entirely, to let horses pass. Unlike farmers we know that we should tread lightly.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 11:50 AM

Living out in the country where I do, 4x4s are pretty much a way of life, especially where country roads are constantly broken up by increasingly heavy 'agro-baron' agricultural vehicles and seldom, if ever, repaired. I have to hold my hand up and say that I own one and they are a much better proposition than a normal car and, in winter, are a godsend.

As an inveterate walker in isolated places and also a volunteer Tree Health Surveyor with the Observatree Project, I do sometime go off-road in order to reach a starting/finishing point for my walks or an isolated piece of woodland but, as my 4x4 is 14 years old, I tend to nurse it gently along to avoid sustaining any damage and only take it as far as is absolutely necessary.

What really baffles me is the current fashion for immaculate, expensive white 4x4s which are never taken off main roads. My car hasn't been washed in 6 years and is a workhorse rather than a luxury cruiser.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 12:07 PM

What 'historic rights' are being eliminated, Richard? The internal combustion engine is not exactly historic and off-road 4x4's are even more recent, so surely it is those that are eliminating the far more historic right to walk the lanes as they have been walked for hundreds if not thousands of years. I don't think your comparison with horses or even carts really stands close scrutiny. Have we any idea how often a cart used to use these roads compared to the number of off-road recreational vehicles that use them now? 10 carts a day? Doubt it. 1 cart a day? 1 cart a week? Compared to what? I really have no idea.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 12:34 PM

What got me in that programme was the way one of the off-roaders argued that one group's interests should not prevent another group's activities. He meant that the walkers should not prevent his groups' driving. He was completely oblivious that his groups' behaviour was preventing the walkers.

I agree with Richard about horses, though. I remember being on a pony trek on Dartmoor. (It was arranged so my young sister could go. It was advertised as a way of visiting the archaeology of the Moor.) The group would make haste to get to the gallops, which were about a hundred yards wide, and composed of pulverised peat over a foot deep. (I know how deep it was. I fell off. And I wasn't even galloping. It was in slow motion.) I was horrified at the damage to the environment. There are paths round here unwalkable because of the hoofprints in the clay.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 01:53 PM

Where I live, most of the off-road 4x4 drivers are doing it at night so they can dazzle hares with their headlights and blast them with shotguns or get their dogs to rip their throats out.

Doubtless Richard will chime in to tell us that's a historic hunting right dating back to Saxon times.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:48 PM

Yes,Richard, this time you aren't half letting your personal predilections obliterate your usual objectivity.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:32 PM

"Goat hair socks"? When did Jeremy Clarkson start writing your script, Richard? Benny Rothman would be turning in his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 07:34 PM

Richard Bridge: Check your facts. Almost all, certainly the majority, of damage to green roads is done by farmers and forestry vehicles - and almost all the repairs are done by recreational vehicular users.

Absolute bollocks! The green lanes I use are barely used at all by farmers or forestry vehicles. There are several in Yorkshire and Derbyshire that I use frequently. They've been fine since my teens until the last 10 years, when they've turned into absolute wrecks. And not due to a "vast increase" in farming and forestry!!!

Until about 10 years ago there were barely any vehicles on them at all. Now, almost every time I use one, there are convoys of 4 x 4 recreational users on them. Never seen any doing any "repairs", either. Or driving particularly slowly....they tend to go as fast as they think they can get away with without breaking something.

For people who want the challenge of off-road driving, there are loads of private tracks and circuits they can use without wrecking both the environment and the enjoyment of others.

Steve Shaw appears to have it right.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:47 AM

"Eliminating historic rights for the pleasure of a bunch of wearers of goat-hair socks, who want the roads not to the standards of history but in the form of some fairytale fantasy is simply middle-class nimbyism and worse."

Superb! But way wide of the mark. These tracks are not made for motor vehicles and should be respected for that. The lack of respect for walkers and other users of these quite paths is evident in your reply above, and seems pretty typical of the attitude of the other Clarksonistas that plough their way over our ancient byways. No-one else thinks this cock-waving looks big and clever, they think 4x4 green laners are ignorant tossers.

I've experienced plenty of non-stopping 4x4s as I mentioned in my post, and I'm still baffled by how someone hasn't been killed. They pound the old metalled roads into gravel; a truly appalling way to treat our heritage. I've never seen one hop out of his HiLux to even inspect the damage he's caused, let alone repair it. Also, not all these trackways are in forests either, many are in high places already blighted by cars on the main roads. It's hard to hear the call of a Curlew over the roar of some lout's executive Landy.

There are fields and places 4x4s can go and create all the noise, pollution and mess they want; I'm sure it's bags of fun. Go there and leave our green lanes to the people with the ability to understand and respect them.

Some people can't leave well alone, have to destroy and disrupt for their "rights" to trample and disfigure. I guess their inability to appreciate the nuance and depth of connection people feel with the land and our ancestors compels them to act in this destructive way. Shame for them. Shame for us.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:15 AM

What is the democratic procedure for putting conditions on use ?

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:55 AM

Ranger1 is missing the important difference in scale between US and UK. The Peak Park of Derbyshire is surrounded by major conurbations and within an hour's drive of Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby, and Stoke, and only a little further from Birmingham, Leicester and Liverpool- a combined population of perhaps two or three US states. And most of that hour's drive is taken up in the city itself, and our bit of countryside would probably count as within the city boundaries in the USA.

There has also been increased damage due to the inflation of size of agricultural vehicles: the tractor of thirty years ago was a quarter of the size of a modern one. It doesn't only affect green lanes: just a few days ago a mediaeval bridge over the Warwickshire Avon at Bidford-on-Avon was damaged by a farm vehicle.

Add to that the fact that off-roaders' enjoyment requires precisely that the roads should be near- impassable, as there's little enjoyment in driving along a smooth track in good condition, and that they don't get their privileged and expensive moneysworth in their local city conditions, and you'll see that not only is the damage intentional (perhaps at an unconscious level, but don't bank on that), so is the denial of the use of the facilities to other users.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 06:00 AM

So I roar where I will over mountain and hill
And I plough through the bracken so deep
I crash through the mountains and muddy the fountains
Leave the moorlands like a rubbish heap
My road kill's the hare in the gulley
I fill the goat hair sock wearers with dread
And sooner than get off my arse and just walk
I think I would rather be dead

I'm a four wheel driver from Basildon way
   I get all my pleasure the petrolhead way
   I may be a sales rep on Monday
   But I'm a dickswinger on Sunday

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:56 AM

What is said above in criticism of vehicular users is largely complete rubbish. I've been there and done it. The point is not competitive mud-plugging. It is to explore. And to tread lightly. I know for a fact that in the South, where I've walked many a byway and RUPP, and driven with a friend in a WW2 Willys leaving no trace of passage, and worked on the repair parties, the AWDC and the TRF and many of the Landrover clubs are forces for the maintenance of historic rights of way - and I've seen the farmers and loggers doing the damage. I've been over rights of way in Wales and found the ONLY bits that were hard to pass were where farmers left culverts and drainage (ripped out by their tractors) unrepaired.

I used to work closely with one of the local heroines of rights of way - a member of the Ramblers' association and widely respected. Both on footpaths and on higher rights of way. "Goats' hair sock brigade" refers to these who believe suffering is a precondition to enjoying the countryside. There are some ramblers who see that access to the country and exercise of rights of way are not merely for pedestrians and galloping majors.

Just look at the ruts you complain about (which are in fact much easier to walk than unmaintained rights of way and horse swamps) - and see what size they are. No Landrover with 16 inch wheels could make them, not even wearing 9.00x16 tyres.

I don't see why the north should suffer from more idiots. In fact, I don't believe it. But if you do, it's a local phenomenon.

And if you think that roads were not often impassable in the past, you need to read more history.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:13 AM

I find it hard to believe that recreational drivers who take 4x4s and trail bikes on tracks that are NOT open to vehicular traffic sudenly become good guys on byways where they are allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:14 AM

I don't disagree with some of your arguments, Richard, but as in many walks of life there are good guys and idiots.

I had the misfortune of watching a group of idiots on a stretch of the Pennine Way between Ribblehead and Hawes. A group of around 6 off-roaders were gunning it behind us and we literally had to jump out of the way. Fortunately half an hour later we came across one nose first in ditch with another trying to pull it. I must say that our comments were not taken well by the drivers :-) Around a mile further on a farmer was coming the other way in his tractor and asked, his own words, "have you seen a dick head stuck in a ditch?"

I appreciate that there are irresponsible ramblers and other such but they usually only put their own lives in jeopardy. I am sure you are one of the majority of responsible 4x4 drivers but if a dick head such as the ones we saw make a mistake, someone could end up dead.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:47 AM

Dear Guest - many non-byways in fact and law have vehicular rights - or did until the lords and farmers got them turned into private roads maintainable at the public expense (it was a stitch-up in the Lords) under the Countryside Rights of Way Act.

Very very few recreational green road drivers will venture where they do not have good grounds to believe a vehicular right of way exists.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:58 AM

Richard Bridge: What is said above in criticism of vehicular users is largely complete rubbish. I've been there and done it. The point is not competitive mud-plugging. It is to explore. And to tread lightly.

No, it's not rubbish. It's personal experience and statistical evidence. Maybe you've "been there and done it", but it sounds as if you have knowledge of a very limited sub-set of off-roaders. Maybe your low-impact fantasies obtain in the gentle lanes of Kent, but even then I'm sceptical. The road I'm living in in Tunbridge Wells now was a good mix when we moved there but is now largely populated by bankers, most with 4 x 4s, several of whom drive off road at weekends. I asked one of them why recently, and the answer was "for the challenge", NOT "to explore and tread lightly".

He wanted ruts, difficult terrain and something that he could pit "man and machine" against....doesn't sound as if he was particularly keen on seeing green lanes in good condition. In fact, the more trashed they were, the bigger the "challenge" and the more he'd like it.

And it's a demonstrable fact that the green lanes in Yorkshire that have been subject to TROs have largely regenerated "under their own steam" since the orders came into force. These TROs only ban offroading. They don't ban the agricultural use that was being made of them before they came into force. Just coincidence? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 12:11 PM

Dear Richard - Which is why a green way where I take holidays has got bl**dy great highway standard signs on either side of an unmade track in a places where there is no way of taking a route that avoids them. The ugliest things for miles around. That way when the curtain twitchers at one end make a phone call, giving plenty of time for officialdom to be waiting at the other (if they can sapre the time), there is no way of the bikers (4x4 sometimes) claiming it was not properly signed.

If the ones I see are very very few there must be an awful lot of you.

Actually, that was a couple of years ago, I think the message has got round.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:16 PM

Isn't it misleading to call it "off-road" driving? The whole reason they are allowed to do it is that these are roads. Not so long ago all roads were like this. Most were tarmacked to accommodate the motor vehicle, something we so take for granted that it provokes little comment until a new one is proposed.

Nevertheless I do deplore the noise and pollution, which should have no place in these remote areas, and the damage they cause.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 05:13 PM

No, Howard, they are not roads in that sense. They are unmetaled tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:52 PM

As a hiker, I feel increasingly vulnerable on the trails of the Sierra Nevada. Horses, hunters, mountain bikes, dirt bikes and ATVs, and big 4x4 vehicles all pose a threat to me. And in some places, there are so many of these machines that it's really hard to enjoy the mountains in quiet.

Yes, I suppose they need to be accommodated - but so many of them so so much damage. So, I don't have a solution, but I have to stand up and say I feel they pose a real threat to me. They don't see me until it's almost too late.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 04:38 AM

"And to tread lightly."

In 3/4 ton of tonka toy? Seriously?


Joe: I'm good friends with some BLM folk responsible for managing the palaeontological resources in several states east of the Rockies and they have a real issue with the damage caused by motors of all kinds. Apart from the damage done when sites are driven over (which happens a lot), the consequences of motor activity in the immediate vicinity of sites can be considerable, especially with regards to erosion and the material released from the rapid degradation of tracks and off-road areas close by.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 06:58 AM

They're a bit 'eavier than that, Stu!

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Stu
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 07:18 AM

They are? Bloody hell.

I can't understand how a great lump of plastic and metal can be compared to a horse and cart anyway. Surely the very physics of how a motor interacts with the substrate is different? Four powered wheels working at high torque and with a substantial amount of horsepower driving them will mean the very nature of that interaction is different; a horse is dragging a cart and a motor is powering itself and the transference of energy from the wheels of a cart to the ground will be considerably less that that of 4x4. You can't wheelspin a hayrick.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 08:41 AM

Yes, I suppose they need to be accommodated

Why, Joe? WHY do we have to provide land and resources at public expense for every bunch of idiots that want to destroy it? What's next, creating "trails" for groups that want to run Sherman tanks and army half-tracks?

These motorized clowna are a danger to others trying to use the resources and destroy the resources in the process. If they absolutely HAVE to get their kicks charging about through mudholes like 12-year-olds, they can form a club & do so on PRIVATE land.

A lot of this is down to good old "anything for a buck" America - advertize and sell these 4WD's and ATV's and dirt bikes to idiots who only realize there's no place they can use them until after the purchase, and then while that the government "owes" them a place they can play with their toys??

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: 4x4s on green roads
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 01:28 PM

If 4x4 machos want to test their off-road skills I'm sure the MoD would more than happy to let work off their testosterone fantasies at weekends on some army training ground or other.

As for green roads- farmers, forestry and national park workers etc. are acceptable and understandable. In any case I'm not sure that the legal status of such tracks actually allows motorised usage by every Tom,Dick and Harry.