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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 18 Jul 15 - 03:20 PM The labeling of songs, nationality and mytholigising. comes into this one. In 1974, my father Stewart Ross wrote a wholly original (words and music) song called 'Here's To Scottish Whisky' for a TV program ceilidh sing-a-long. The song wasn't recorded or used, but was instead recorded in full on 'heather and haggis' style by the Tartan Lads. It was a title track of an EMI LP and then included on many compilations as a song representing Scotland and it's 'national drink'. Not sung live that much though, as it's most famous recording had an orchestration. Years later I find that a music writer has come out with a book 'Taboo Tunes' - a history of banned music. He's talking about the Irish having 'Whiskey in the Jar' and the Scots having 'Here's to Scottish Whisky' as being sung in American drinking dens, despite the subject matter being politically incorrect. The song didn't exist until 1974! Also, it was about as authentic as a plastic Nessie. My father didn't drink and wrote it to order. The trad. music style idiom label given by record companies created a myth. An assumption was made that a stereotype heather and haggis song must be of a certain vintage. So that's why getting a song's chronology and documented story as well as its nationality is important, if not you propagate a myth. I wrote to the author sent him documentation, interviews and press stuff - and he admitted a cock up. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Alan Ross Date: 18 Jul 15 - 12:52 PM Oh, nothing to do mix ups of origin. But getting the political national and cultural significance of a song wrong can cause problems. A member of my family (MOR singer) once naively sang Y'Viva Espania to Spanish tourists at a gig - unfortunately they were from the Catalonia region (many want independence). They weren't happy. That's getting the cultural identity of the audience wrong! |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Alan Ross Date: 18 Jul 15 - 10:40 AM Hi! Thread readers- I should never have started! I have been trying to get on with real life... So anyway, my original (stupid moan) that a song was on a cultural database, very prominently headed as a source of Irish song. Either with words, or just the music, which was previously well documented as a Scottish work. This creates a myth surrounding the song, or other works that they hold. And if people turn to that resource, then they'll make an assumption based on the context of where it's been placed. I am talking about modernish folk songs - and I'm sure it works all ways with the Scots and the Irish and all nationalities being just as guilty of this. In copyright terms - don't trust all registrations. A registration is just that. You can have many works under the same title. Many works become wrongly credited as Trad. depending on who is a member of the copyright society and who isn't, and whether their publishers notice and remove the false registration. Also there are just many printers errors, human errors (at the societies giving out licensing information) etc. 'Dark Island' as a tune has wrongly been listed as trad. due to the publishers being unable to deal with every case and remove all the worldwide breaching registrations and claims and the licensing societies accepting the registration. Who has the money or time to remove every false credit with a worldwide viral tune, that is so well known, but bogged down in rumour? They would be there forever. I don't want to go in to the history of the tune, which is well documented in other threads. Also, Ian Maclachlan has family so you have to always bear in mind that when circulating rumours. You can hurt living people, even though he himself is now deceased. I can't understand though, why the publishers did not fight off Mike Oldfield's Trad. registration... but it's not my business.... The Irish tag is now frequently applied to the tune - which is clearly wrong - but we are part of this Celtic diaspora exchange. I never usually see the tune listed as being 'Welsh' origin though! My own pedantic attitude was probably formed by my having worked on archaeological archives and research, objectively transferring historical information. My apologies for that! There are loads of historical, cross-cultural songs 'Wild Mountain Thyme' (bit half n' half with McPeake modern re-arrangement) etc. But my 'beef' was in fairly modern songs' origins being 'fudged' for a certain purpose. Dave's comment of today 18th is pretty much what I meant.. and far cleverer and relevant than I could have written about the Tags we give to songs, and cultures by style, nationality and performer - and in MODERN terms who classifies it and why its part of their 'tradition'. The responsibility of whoever is creating an academic database is to have some historical regard for that. In the original example I set out all I said was that there should have been a note that it is a Scottish song, often sung in Ireland. If it had been a Polish. American. Chinese song - my point would have been the same. The fact that they put in the location where it was recorded 'in the field' creates an implication that it originated from their nation. Somebody previously mentioned Football terrace songs. That's an area where many cultural distinctions or copyright norms can go by the board - a no man's land - it's what takes off among the supporters. True folk music? |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Jul 15 - 08:39 AM I can get even more compliacted on the continent where not only people and songs move but borders as well. Is an Alsatian folksong (in Alsatian, a German dialect) a French or a German folksong? Here, the solution is easy, for both counties involved would call it Alsatian, but Alsace never was a nation, so such a song would have no "nationality". Annie of Tharaw (title of Longfellow's English transalation): The song was originally written in a local dialect (Low German with some Slavian words), translated centuries ago into High German. The monument for Annie stands in Lithuania, Tharaw is now in Russia. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jul 15 - 06:59 AM "So if a musical group of Polish immigrants in Dublin, London or Glasgow are singing Polish folk songs, or dancing Polish dances in Polish national costume," They become part of those places' street traditions and are worthy of being archived as such - as were |London street musicians (German musicianers) in the 19th century) immigrants have always brought their songs with them and, if they settle anywhere, those songs become part of that tradition (if there is a living tradition to absorbe them). Bit of an upside down argument anyway Raglan Road is a poem by Patrick Cavanagh and Dirty Old Town is a modern song written by Ewan MacColl - neither are traditional songs from anywhere. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Dave Date: 18 Jul 15 - 04:25 AM Joe, Sure, people are much more mobile than they used to be, and all of the nations of the UK, and also the Republic of Ireland, have many more people from other cultures than was the case even a decade ago. Some people don't like this fact, as I am sure you are aware, I am not one of them. But they bring their cultures with them. So if a musical group of Polish immigrants in Dublin, London or Glasgow are singing Polish folk songs, or dancing Polish dances in Polish national costume, then this is part of Polish tradition, not Irish, English or Scottish tradition. If a group of Irish immigrants to the UK are singing Raglan Road, it is part of Irish tradition. If they are singing Dirty Old Town, it is not. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jul 15 - 03:04 AM This is a remarkable example of a good archive of traditional music should work, and an extremely generous offer. Bi-centinery series Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Jul 15 - 10:28 PM But Dave, what is "Irish tradition"? Ireland has a large Polish community, especially in the Dublin area. Isn't their dance and music part of "Irish tradition." When I've attended instrumental sessions in Ireland, I've seen many young Asians - isn't their music part of "Irish tradition"? And what about the Irish emigrants who live in England, the US, and other parts of the world - is their music part of "Irish tradition"? I think Ireland is more of a melting pot than people might think, and the true Irish tradition is far broader than you seem to think it is. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Dave Date: 17 Jul 15 - 03:15 PM Not at all Steve, as evidenced by the fact that the US library of Congress does indeed describe itself accurately in a few words as: "The Library's mission is to support the Congress in fulfilling its constitutional duties and to further the progress of knowledge and creativity for the benefit of the American people." Nothing at all wrong with that. It does not claim nor even infer that all, or even that majority of its holdings are American or part of American tradition. The problem I have with ITMA is that it does describe itself as: "a national public reference archive and resource centre for the traditional song, instrumental music and dance of Ireland" when quite a lot of the material it holds is not part of Irish tradition at all. This clearly offends when material it holds is the intellectual property of people who are not part of Irish tradition. Not in all cases, but clearly some. This could quite easily be solved by ITMA being a bit more careful about how it describes itself and its holdings. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Jul 15 - 03:04 PM There's a lot of pedantry going on here. Any institution/library etc. is not bound to have material exclusive to its title. Titles are short and snappy for a good reason. If they were to include in their title all of the genres they covered it would take us a year to read the title. Personally I am quite happy if I can go to an institution and find what it says on the label, regardless of what else is in there. As long as the bulk of its holdings are covered by the title most of us would be happy. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Dave Date: 17 Jul 15 - 04:27 AM But if the US library of congress described itself as "a public library and reference centre for the literature and traditions of the United States", and it had books in it by non-US authors, it would be wrong, wouldn't it? It doesn't describe itself that way as far as I can see. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 16 Jul 15 - 12:35 PM You might notice ITMA's choice of "for" rather than "of" in that quoted description. They are making no claim to have exclusively Irish material. There is nothing at all wrong with it. The US Library of Congress would be a pretty small collection if it only had books written by Congressmen. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 16 Jul 15 - 12:25 PM "for traditional song, instrumental music and dance in Ireland" perhaps ? |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Dave Date: 16 Jul 15 - 10:55 AM Thompson, all that I think ITMA should do is to remove from the front page of its website the statement that it is "a national public reference archive and resource centre for the traditional song, instrumental music and dance of Ireland", and replace it with something more general and more accurate. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jul 15 - 07:23 AM "to remove foreign music from its site altogether?" Please no No serious archive worth its salt omits music from elsewhere - putting folk music into international context is an essential part of its being understood. "No, a reference to an actual incident." Your remark was a general one, wherever that incident might have been. "Hint - don't try to enlighten them." I was once beaten up by three very drunken Chelsea supporters - does that mean I should have given a wide berth to Stamford Bridge (I do anyway, but that's beside the point!!) "I now see it was a joke." It was Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Thompson Date: 16 Jul 15 - 07:08 AM The Republic of Ireland and Her Dominions Across the Seas… Would it be possible to ask the ITMA either a) to wall off foreign music as "non-Irish music performed by Irish musicians", or b) to remove foreign music from its site altogether? |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 15 Jul 15 - 07:15 AM Must be a Brit!! Bit of racial stereotyping here, methinks. Oh, sorry I now see it was a joke. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 15 Jul 15 - 07:12 AM Bit of racial stereotyping here, methinks. No, a reference to an actual incident. I would be surprised if anyone who plays Irish-sounding tunes in England has not come across the people at the bar, with Irish connections of some sort, asking for Irish songs that are not actually Irish. Nowadays it can be laughed off. In the 1980's (I don't know about the 1970's) it could get nasty, as the same voices often asked for, or started, 'rebel songs'. Especially since the musicians often included people from both traditions in the north. But you must know that Jim. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Jack Campin Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:14 AM when you come across a couple of drunken Liverpool Irish who won't believe anything sung by the Clancy Brothers or Dubliners is not Irish. Hint - don't try to enlighten them. That is more or less what Adela Peeva's film is about, transplanted to the Balkans and backed up with guns. Really, check it out, you won't regret it. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jul 15 - 06:10 AM "a couple of drunken Liverpool Irish" Bit of racial stereotyping her, methinks. Must be a Brit!! (I'm from Liverpool of Irish descent b.t.w. but please don't feel you have to apologise) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: henryclem Date: 15 Jul 15 - 05:31 AM Sometimes mis-attribution is down to laziness, or lack of research - I remember years ago the BBC did a programme on connections between Irish and American music; it featured Emmylou Harris, Mary Black and Dolores Keane singing "Grey Funnel Line" without commenting at all as to its source or subject (the unmistakeably English Cyril Tawney and the Royal Navy). From my own point of view I am proud that one of my songs is included in the Yorkshire Garland's Industrial and Mining Songs - and it is entirely appropriate that it locates to Yorkshire, sung by a true Yorkshireman (and mudcatter - Ray Padgett) rather than my own West Country. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 15 Jul 15 - 05:16 AM Though I might defer to Tattie Bogle's experience with tactful correction. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 15 Jul 15 - 05:11 AM Unfortunately that happens all over the place. Don't see what that had got to do with this thread though. Simply knowing and recognising where a song derives from is not chauvinism! It has to do with the subject of the thread (not knowing where a song derived from) when you come across a couple of drunken Liverpool Irish who won't believe anything sung by the Clancy Brothers or Dubliners is not Irish. Hint - don't try to enlighten them. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Paul Burke Date: 15 Jul 15 - 05:05 AM The fact is that every song or tune is based on some previous song or tune. Dark Island itself was apparently consciously written to conform with a style in which hundreds of similar songs were written, and the composer (in my opinion correctly) didn't feel that he needed to acknowledge that tradition, simply because it was obvious. Indeed, it being written for a TV programme, an atonal, rhythmically complex exploration of the fringes of meaning wouldn't have filled the bill quite as well. As for the tune, has anyone noticed the similarities between this tune and another song of exile by a composer who never left the area, Cliffs of Dooneen? |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Eddie1 - Sans cookie as ever Date: 15 Jul 15 - 05:01 AM Then of course, there is the time Si Kahn sang "Aragon Mill" in Ireland and was told that it was originally written about Belfast and he had "stolen" it! We who know better realise it was written as a tribute to a character in "Lord of The Rings"! Eddie |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Tattie Bogle Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:54 AM I agree about correct attribution. I may be picky, but how often do you see YouTubes that say "song by xyz" - might be SUNG by xyz, but not written by xyz. I can think of other examples: Adam McNaughtan songs credited to Matt McGinn, Matt McGinn songs credited to Alistair McDonald, in both cases, the singer being wrongly credited with authorship of the song, perhaps because these recordings are best known. And Thomas Walsh's lovely tune Inisheer being described as Trad on at least 2 CDs that I know of. And as for Dirty Old Town, oft mentioned above: "We are now going to sing an Irish song" - Heckles from audience, "Oh no it's not" and "SALFORD". After the band came off stage, had a quiet word with the lead singer: "Oh, but everyone thinks of it as Irish" says he. "Oh but it's not" says me. Just wonder if he'll change his introduction: probably not! |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Dave Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:48 AM Its confusing also that different songs have the same title. When I heard that they were singing "500 miles" at the Commonwealth Games, I was wondering why it didn't sound like Hedy West's version. Of course its a completely different song. But I suppose that you cannot copyright a title. Probably there wouldn't then be enough titles to go round. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:48 AM Who composed "Dark Island," Jack? Was it Mr. Ross's father? Did Ross Sr. pay royalties to that composer? As for "Little Moses," the Ralph Peer organization has so vehemently protected Carter Family copyrights, that it's not worth the hassle to defy their claims. So, they get royalties for songs written a hundred years before the Carters were born. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Jack Campin Date: 15 Jul 15 - 04:04 AM Seems to me that "Dark Island" is a very engaging tune, and several people wrote lyrics to it of varying value. The version I prefer is "Isle of my childhood..." - but who owns it? And for this song, the lyrics are mostly forgettable, and it's the melody what people like. And who owns the melody? Isn't it traditional? No. It was a new composition. I can track Little Moses to 1840, but don't try to record the song without paying royalties to the Peer/Carter Family organization. If you reprint the version from the 1840s, exactly and with no changes to the arrangement, you don't owe them a cent. |
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Subject: 'Nationality' of Songs From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Jul 15 - 09:43 PM I have to way that I agree with Willie-o's comments in the DT Study thread:
Posted By: Willie-O 25-Nov-03 - 01:22 PM Thread Name: DTStudy: The Dark Island Subject: RE: DTStudy: The Dark Island
Oh man, this has totally given me a headache, more so every time someone tries to explain that "my father" wrote the "correct" or "official" version, without clarifying which version they mean. Sorry mates, I still don't get what you're after legally--royalties or just corrected credit, or suppressing certain versions which you consider inferior or a copyright infringement? We who sing, just want to sing the songs. We don't want to get bogged down in legal battling over who has rights to what. We just want to sing the frickin' song. Lots of people won't touch "Dark Island" because there's too much squabbling over it, and too much uncertainty over who owns what rights. "Mingulay Boat Song" is another one - It was written by Hugh Roberton, but who owns it now? And what about the blues songs of the 1920s and 1930s, or the songs claimed to be "Carter Family" songs? I'm all for paying songwriters for what they wrote - within limits. Seems to me that "Dark Island" is a very engaging tune, and several people wrote lyrics to it of varying value. The version I prefer is "Isle of my childhood..." - but who owns it? And for this song, the lyrics are mostly forgettable, and it's the melody what people like. And who owns the melody? Isn't it traditional? I just finished editing a songbook with 1200 songs, and I'm the one who got copyright permissions on the songs that were difficult to license. Most of the copyright holders were gracious and cooperative, there were a few "old gits" who made it difficult or impossible for us to print the lyrics and chords to their songs. At times, it could be aggravating. And it really possed me off when we had to pay royalties that were 100 years old, but some corporation had finagled a way to squeeze royalties out it anyhow. I can track Little Moses to 1840, but don't try to record the song without paying royalties to the Peer/Carter Family organization. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:40 PM We were beaten up in Great Yarmouth and my mate had a bottle in his face just because we had Scottish accents! Unfortunately that happens all over the place. Don't see what that had got to do with this thread though. Simply knowing and recognising where a song derives from is not chauvinism! And as to "500 Miles" the facts are that it is a Scottish song. Written, recorded and performed by Scots. Why would it have to be specifically Scottish themed to be a Scottish song? Desperado and Lying Eyes by the Eagles aren't particularly American themed. Other nationalities can relate to them - but they are still American songs. I honestly can't see why some people seem to have an issue with recognising where songs originate! |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Ed Date: 14 Jul 15 - 03:05 PM Do you know someting? Whilst I generally conform to "Little Willow", how do you live with that? It's just far too lovely for words. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 15 - 02:31 PM I used those two examples because earlier in this thread they were described as 'appropriated' by the Irish. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 15 - 02:26 PM Have we mentioned Danny Boy yet ? I am English but were it not for a career change I would have been living in Scotland and eligible to vote for Scottish independance. If I had stayed in Scotland and I wrote a song what nationality would it be ? Is it like competing in the Olympics ? Being English and slightly left-wing I don't really do 'national pride' but I can understand and respect it. However, it can be the thin end of the wedge of chauvinism. Back in the 1980's I experienced what Jack Campin reports early on in this thread. And some English pals of mine watched Braveheart in Perth; they didn't dare open their mouths until they were well outside the cinema. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 15 - 02:03 PM "WOULD give the song a claim to irishness after all?" Doesn't need Ronnie Drew for either of them. Both have been part of the Irish song tradition for at least a century. One of the finest versions of 'Rover'IMO was recorded from Pat Usher of County Louth, brother of Mary Anne Carolan, one of Ireland's finest traditional singers - far superior to the one belted out at rugby clubs or in the pub at last orders. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:54 PM It looks to me you really want your cake and eat it. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Alan Ross Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:52 PM I meant to say about the Proclaimers, it wasn't just the performers being Scottish - but the fact that they wrote it. That's the big point I meant to say. And they use at least one Scottish word in the song as well, that gives it a cultural stamp. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:46 PM So Ronnie Drew singing, say, The Wild Rover or The Black Velvet Band in a broad Dublin accent WOULD give the song a claim to irishness after all? |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:46 PM Oh and don't forget the word 'Haver' in the song. They taught the world about 'havering'. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Alan Ross Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:41 PM I should have said that 500 miles is not purely a Scottish folk song. A pop song, that happens to cross-over markets. But the original very broad accent - makes it instantly identifiable. When covered its just a pop song, but as its getting taken on by the public as an anthem then it would seem also to be a song that Disney have made a folk song for the world. So its both.. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Alan Ross Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:34 PM Ahh isn't that the fact the performers are Scottish, through and through - and Proclaim it through their accents identity and politics. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 15 - 01:30 PM But what is the scottish theme in "I Would Walk 500 Miles" by The Proclaimers then? Other than the Proclaimers being scottish it would seem pretty universal, thematically. |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Alan Ross Date: 14 Jul 15 - 12:46 PM To balance things up, as I just wrote. with Highland Cathedral - which is Scottish themed modern and written by Korb/Ulrich There should have been no excuse for some (not all) careless pipers claiming trad. - as that work is so modern and easy to trace. I think that's another matter. However, it also is related to a Culture being proud of a tune and making it completely Scottish by removing 'its history' - totally absorbing it. At least the writers intended it as Scottish. With the tune 'Dark Island' - (NOT my father's lyric), I think there seems to be a need for some Irish performers/cultural parties to claim it for their culture - to be proud and propagate the idea that only their culture can create such a beautiful tune. Assimilate the work so totally, that you wipe out its past. And if you point that out I'm sure they'll say "well its Celtic". There's this Celtic/Gaelic pride thing that comes into it. Celtic Pride overrides historical truth I'm guilty of Highland pride sometimes! |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 15 - 11:43 AM Ahh! Highland Cathedral - that well known modern German work, which many a Scots piper has claimed as Trad. 'old Scots' That is the subject matter theme that makes it Scottish, not the nationality of the writer. Deliberate faux nationality. Probably thousands of examples of that... Johnny Cash - 'Forty Shades of Green' etc. - song subject matter makes it Irish. More confusing is the likes of 'Wild Mountain Thyme' adapted in modern times, by the Irish and then re-acquired by the Scots. As I said before on the crazy example here an album called 'My Irish Roots' - song 'Highland Road' performer Dundee's 'Denis Clancy'. Scottish song, Scottish writer, Scottish Performer - Irish record company eejit (not intended as any slur on the Irish themselves). How Irish is this? " "...Then I'll march along to a Scottish song on the road that's wild and free, though the lonely glens by the Highland Bens - it's the Highland Road for me" author/composer Stewart Ross |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 14 Jul 15 - 11:33 AM That of course opens the question 'when is a song a ... song (take your favourite or not nationality or ethnic background)?'. Falls a song written by a scots/Irish/English/German/Italian or Dutch-person automatically to that nationality or is there something more needed? |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Megan L Date: 14 Jul 15 - 11:15 AM OOOH Allan how could you everyone knows Highland Cathedral was written by a Scotsman, he couldn't help it if his birth certificate says h'es German :) |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 14 Jul 15 - 02:36 AM My experience is that folk singers mostly do know where the song comes from or at least where they think it comes from. Here in the Borders at least tune players tend to be of the two kinds. Some knowing lots about the tunes - others not even remembering what some of the tunes are called never mind where they originated. I'm talking though not necessarily about folk performers and enthusiasts but about people in general - especially on the likes of youtube etc. And I'v seen also what one poster up the thread describes where it is pointed out that a certain song isn't actually Irish (for instance Dirty Old Town) and the other poster suggests it is just "the English" trying to steal Irish culture. There are clips where, for instance, Luke Kelly introduces the song as being about Salford - but even if you guide people towards that they still won't have it. For some reason some people need these songs to be Irish and get quite agitated when it is suggested that they aren't. It is very strange. As I said there is nothing wrong with knowing where songs come from and in many cases that enhances the song's meaning. And of course it is not just an Irish thing it just seems to more common with them. However I've seen people here convinced that certain songs are definitely Scottish with that being based seemingly solely on them first hearing the song being sung by the Corries or the fact that pipe bands have taken to playing the tune! |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:19 PM Try this one.. 'My Mother' recorded by the Fortune Bays sons. I originally found this version on YouTube. It was destined to become a Newfoundland song and they were trying to add it to their canon... they had credited Stewart Ross as originator of the lyric (but gave it the wrong title Mike's Mom). There are a few words wrong which spoils the poetry of my father's words, and also its performed at a much faster pace than usual. The guy who did the video has amended the text to acknowledge the Scottish roots of both the modern words and the music. The version being sung isn't quite correct, and I have posted the full correct lyrics for the song on the current 'mother' song link. The lyrics were written in 1975, and some Scottish Gaels may feel its a 'bastardization' of their culture. However, at the time he wrote the lyric he was unaware of there being any other lyrics, as 'My Mother' or 'Mo Mhathair' was in many Scottish dance band recordings as a 'Trad. instrumental' and registered as such. 98% of his works are wholly original words and music - but 'My Mother' and 'Dark Island' are just lyrics only. You can however, see my father's penchant for writing lyrics about being far from home... www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl1mRv7gL20 |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:50 PM 2we tend to take what we like and use it without too much thought about its ultimate source" Which is basically why the folk traditions are the least understood of all the art forms Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Nationality of songs From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:07 PM Joe come on and read what I said. I never suggested there was anything wrong with anyone singing "Dirty Old Town" and relating to that said song and it having resonance for them and their locality. In fact I said that songs are the property of the whole world. I simply suggested that there is nothing wrong with knowing the origins of a song and for me I like to know the origins. It is wrong though to attribute a song incorrectly. And yes there are connections between Scotland and Ireland just as there are connections between Scotland and England and connections between all of us. The songs I mentioned though were not Irish songs in any way. One was written by a guy who was born and brought up not far from where I live here in the Scottish Borders and had moved to Australia. He wrote it shortly after visiting British World War I graves whilst touring Europe. The second was written by an Englishman of Scottish parentage who was born and brought up in Salford and the song was written specifically as a musical interlude for his play set in the said place. Of course there is nothing wrong with anyone relating to these songs but it is simply incorrect to claim them as Irish songs! Which is what happens a lot of the net. "No Man's Land" is no more an Irish song than "I Would Walk 500 Miles" by The Proclaimers is an English song. Scotland is closer to England than it is to Ireland and is culturally shares lots with England too. There is probably more that connects us culturally than what separates us. That doesn't make Scottish songs English though! |
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