BS: £3 paid?

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 07:03 PM

why care about (exactly) wot class you are? everyone you meet will be a wee bit more middle or working class than you. it really does not matter. what matters is good intent and compassion

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST,Musket sickle of his hammer
Date: 29 Jul 15 - 03:00 AM

I've got a flat cap, a greyhound and use black pudding in recipes. I still have my pit tallies (stole them on my last shift..) and they are hung in my study above a safety lamp I bought from an ex copper who stole it from our pit during the strike.

How working sodding class do you want?

Mind you, I also have a T shirt with a picture of Atlee on it, with the words "What would Clem do?"

The candidate hopefuls may wish to lead a party with fluid values and differing aspirations but they also wish to deliver a government. That means attracting votes across the spectrum, and even if they don't but get enough votes anyway, be a government for all.

It kind of gravitates to the middle.

Being "working class" or whatever that means in this, not the previous century is not a key to any ideal. Both UKIP and, in Scotland, SNP claim support "of the working classes." One party would have us leave The EU regardless and the other bases their whole message on remaining part of Europe. One party decries The NHS and social equality, the other bases its manifesto on it.

What is clear is that votes, whether internal to a party or in general elections and referendums are based on the opinion of the voter, regardless of their situation or grasp of the issues.

Reading some of the usual suspects on here, I'm seeing how democracy is the best system only because nobody can think of anything better.

Anyway, I decided to come out of retirement through boredom and start a new job next week. Looks like I'm a worker again. Where's my moleskin trousers?

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 06:48 PM

you what?

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 02:26 PM

No, because the choice of leaders is not "diverse" enough.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 01:16 PM

The problem here, achmelvich, is that the main proponent of social inequality bases his arguments on the fact that he believes a whole section of society should be denied the benefits of the majority simply because they were born different. I am in full agreement that many equalities are unachievable but there are those which are easy to resolve and make perfect sense to many. It is the type of fairness that would offer equal opportunity to many who are currently denied it but he would continue to rail against this type of fairness to further his political agenda. Sadly he is a countryman of yours and, knowing that the vast majority of Scots are very fair minded, you have my commiserations on having to put up with such blatant prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 12:57 PM

equality of opportunity, equality under the law - equal rights. may be too idealistic for some but surely an objective worth trying to attain. financial equality i don't think would be possible or desirable, but given the current situation in the west we have to do something to challenge such wild and illegal inequality. if you don't fancy equality - how would a bit more fairness suit you?

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 04:52 AM

Honesty.....I have never voted Tory in my life, but if I truly believed that capitalism could never be overturned, I would vote Conservative at every opportunity.

The "liberal" left are simply in the business of creating a social and bureaucratic madhouse......They are incapable of managing the economic system to any degree whatsoever. The people have illustrated over and over again that they do not want "socialism", especially "socialism" within a capitalist system(turkeys and Christmas)......The power lies in the accumulation of money and "socialism" will certainly make most people poorer financially.

As MrT has illustrated social policies based on "equality" are a special sort of soft left madness, which, if ever they are allowed full rein, will lead to another "Decline and Fall"

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 03:59 AM

Social Status.

When I was young, differentials in wages or living standards were nothing like the obscene scale we see today, Doctors, Public Service people, Teachers, Ministers, were paid only slightly more than labourers, but their status in society was higher.
Status could be obtained without further education, but depending on how each individual contributed to the wellbeing of society.

My Uncle had no education other than primary schooling, yet he was renowned as an exceptionally hard worker, a friend and helper to all, and most importantly a enthusiastic contributor to the weekly village concerts, which were the hub of our social life.
His status was as high as any in the community, and tho' he died in 1980, he is still spoken of warmly by all who know our family.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 03:56 AM

There have been numerous civilisations Mr Bridge - equality featured in none of them.

We are all supposedly equal in the eyes of God (Kinda difficult to prove)
We are all supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law, but that is a myth as you get precisely what "law" you can afford to pay for.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 03:56 AM

There have been numerous civilisations Mr Bridge - equality featured in none of them.

We are all supposedly equal in the eyes of God (Kinda difficult to prove)
We are all supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law, but that is a myth as you get precisely what "law" you can afford to pay for.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 03:19 AM

Is that the sort of status that brings respect, or something different
?

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 15 - 03:08 AM

"
Don't know if you have noticed Akenaton - but neither does nature or life."............... certainly have Mr T, and I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly.
"Equality" is a myth, a bargaining chip.....I visualise a society built on status, not wealth or power.

Status according to contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 06:36 PM

Teri - it seems that some propose civilisation, but you oppose it. You confess to your evil.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 01:37 PM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 01:23 PM

"Capitalism doesn't do equality."

Don't know if you have noticed Akenaton - but neither does nature or life.

Dave the Gnome, I cannot imagine why you are so surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 01:02 PM

demisisation ? Demonisation! Damn spill chucker...

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 01:00 PM

Crikey, Teribus, it looks like we have both said the same thing in different ways! Both the unions and the management need to understand that working together is the best way forward. If you and I can agree on that then surely there must be a way forward :-)

Ake, you are over simplifying. Capitalism can work well if done properly, A responsible capitalist realises that he must look after his workforce as well as his investments in just the same way that a responsible union leader must realise that he must look after his employers investment as well as his members. It need not be based on inequality, strife and the demisisation of one class or another. The more sensible leaders on both sides of the fence can see that. It just takes time for things to even out.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 12:17 PM

Its quite simple really, you want a Capitalist system, you take what it gives you. Capitalism doesn't do equality.

Must I list again the inequalities inherent to the system?   You've seen them all in glorious Technicolor over the past decade. Christ if you don't understand how unequal we are now after the financial crash and umpteen wars founded on ignorance, you never will.

To make Capitalism work well, we require inequality, exploitation, war, theft and selfishness.....not love and the brotherhood of man, that's why leftist governments always make a mess of the economy, they stop Capitalism working efficiently.

You must make a choice, the status quo, with all the negatives for our descendants and the obscene wealth differentials....or make a start on a different kind of society which values nature and puts community before "self" and wastefulness.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 12:10 PM

"Some of the municipal services that Maggie privatised were mind bogglingly inefficient and kept that way because the unions had more influence than ratepayers as 'service users'

If that sort of thing is going to work explain to me how its way of doing things is going to be that much different from the private sector. Assuming that in both cases the unions can play a sensible role in looking after employees' interests."

Totally agree, it should also be cast in stone that Unions are represented, as they are in Germany, on the Boards of the Companies their members work for. The unions, if operating responsibly and effectively are not there to simply look after the interests of their members but also look after the long term interests of the company and the industry in which their members are working - that has been the key to Germany's industrial success - responsible Trades Unions and responsible Management working together - doesn't happen in the UK because of our "us" and "them" mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 11:55 AM

"Capital" basically is another word for money, and "capitalism" means a method by which that money can be used to Enable people to produce stuff and provide services."

The one thing you forgot to add Kevin is that it also provides jobs, a means whereby people can earn a living and that system as much as it has been decried and derided by the "left" remains true, it has worked, while alternative systems have not. Nothing in life remains stagnant, things evolve and adaptation to meet the challenges and requirements of the day are what is required. That cannot be accommodated by political dogma and ideology, to listen to most on this forum from the eastern side of the pond they would appear to be stuck in a time warp centred around the thinking of mid-1970s - those days are gone and good riddance to them. Us "baby-boomers" have been the most self-indulgent, materialistic and most destructive the planet has ever seen. Counter to what Kennedy said it is all about what, "MY COUNTRY HAS TO DO FOR ME" - well sorry that is not the way it works, never has, never will - you are responsible for you and that is what children should be taught, both at home and at school.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM

The key question is whether you want to help the rich exploit the poor. If not, Corbyn is the only opposition to the Etonian toffs. It's that simple. And as usual Akenhateon's exhortation of Nirvana falls woefully short on practical detail!

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 11:44 AM

One trouble is that efforts at shared ownership of the means of production have their ups and downs.

When I was a kid the Co-op ran retail stores where you could buy most things and get buried when you died. In the 1960's, with the rise of the supermarkets, they lost the plot and some town-centre locations. They seem to have got their act together over food sales once more, but what a fiasco their banking was. Apparently they are still tops for burying you.

Some of the municipal services that Maggie privatised were mind bogglingly inefficient and kept that way because the unions had more influence than ratepayers as 'service users'

If that sort of thing is going to work explain to me how its way of doing things is going to be that much different from the private sector. Assuming that in both cases the unions can play a sensible role in looking after employees' interests.

Civil servants are not trained to provide services and they don't even seem to know how to buy them without getting ripped off.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 11:26 AM

Thank you, Kevin. Put far better than I could have done. The fact also remains that there is a growing number of capitalists with similar views. There is nothing wrong at all with responsible capitalism and we, the labour force, should be able to work in an atmosphere of co-operation rather than conflict. We cannot, however, drive that change as it needs to grow in an environment of mutual trust rather than forced revolution. I may be naive but I really do believe we will, eventually, all work together for the mutual good of the planet and everyone on it. Not in my lifetime but maybe in my grand-children's.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 11:16 AM

"Capital" basically is another word for money, and "capitalism" means a method by which that money can be used to Enable people to produce stuff and provide services. We've got a system in which some people have an enormous amount of money, most have a relatively small amount, and large numbers have virtually none.

The real issue isn't whether we operate a form of capitalism, but whether we should continue to have a system in which everything is grossly distorted by inequality.

Jeremy Corbyn is very much a capitalist. But one opposed to inequality. Tye same was true for that matter of Karl Marx.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 08:40 AM

There is good and bad on both sides of the economic equation. Some expound that labour is more important, causing the type of action that guest is describing, while others set capital at the forefront to the detriment of workers rights. In truth neither is right as they cannot exist without each other. As in most walks of life it is extremism that is the enemy, not each other.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 08:27 AM

They tried to make it work in the short term interests of the workers. So the docker striking against changes that would shift the same stuff on and off shore with the less people put his children out of work.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 08:21 AM

working class
noun
noun: working class; plural noun: working classes

    1.
    the social group consisting of people who are employed for wages, especially in manual or industrial work.
    "the housing needs of the working classes"

But to anyone with a modicum of humanity there should only be one class anyway. We are all human beings and to define classes in such a way is simply divisive.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 08:15 AM

Guest, you are doubtless correct, but the dinosaurs of the left made the mistake of trying to make the system work in the interests of the workers.....a tactic which was always bound to fail, given the nature of capitalism.......no profit?.....close down and move the money on.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 08:08 AM

The "Working class" is a political definition, at one time they were a powerful and organised political voice.

Today we have a number of individuals who work, some employed some self employed they have no organised political voice, it has been removed, they have been emasculated, silenced, politically they have ceased to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 08:00 AM

Would you have expected British workers to survive on the wage rates prevalent in the countries exporting resources to the UK?

No, but I would have expected, for example, the productivity of a European container port or publishing house, and not to have a democratic country's infrastructure at the mercy of strikes called after non-secret ballots.

The workers got Thatcher because the dynosaurs of the left failed them.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 07:56 AM

Of the 64 million people in the UK there are around 40 million of working age. Over 30 million pay their income tax through PAYE. Discount those who are self employed and those who do not use PAYE for other reasons and the proportion of people working and paying tax is a massive 75%-80%. They provide labour in exchange for payment from a company and pay income tax on it. That is working for a living by anyone's definition. Do non of these exist?

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 07:31 AM

I would also say GUEST that the points you mention have more to do with the cyclical nature of Capitalism than the ineffectiveness of the British Labour movement.

Would you have expected British workers to survive on the wage rates prevalent in the countries exporting resources to the UK?

Under the capitalist system, the moment you become "uncompetitive" you get the chop. Capital moves on, it never loses.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 07:25 AM

I am not any of those people. I am not self employed. I work and get paid so I am working class along with millions of other people. Do we not exist? Simple enough question even for you, ake.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 07:21 AM

I don't usually respond to trolls, but Mr Murdoch "works", Fred the Shred "works", Mr Branston "works", but I doubt that any could be described as "working class".

Most self employed people regard themselves, rightly or wrongly as "middle class".

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 07:09 AM

Guest...I didn't say that the working class were always right and they were rarely well led, but they were a powerful political movement.
Now they don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 07:03 AM

You don't half talk shite, ake. I work. If I did not I would not be able to shelter, feed and clothe my family. I am therefore working class. Do I not exist?

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 06:49 AM

The "british working" class used to be a powerful organised voice in determining the political direction of this country

The "powerful organised voice" used that voice like turkeys voting for Christmas and the divided 'old Labour' handed the country to Thatcher on a plate.

I grew up with news of dock strikes. Where are 'our' docks now? Rotterdam.

I grew up with news railway strikes. What do we have now? Motorways.

I grew up with news miners strikes. What do we have now? Imported coal.

I grew up with news of steelworkers strikes. What do we have now? Imports.

I grew up with news of printers strikes. What do we have now? Murdoch and a technology that would have come anyway.

And they were surprised that Thatcher kept getting elected?

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 06:28 AM

The "british working" class used to be a powerful organised voice in determining the political direction of this country.....unfortunately it has been emasculated and almost wiped out by governments of both persuasions. The few have moved to embrace self employment or low wage contract employment with little protection.....the many have become the benefit ridden, hopeless "underclass".

The "working class" in the UK no longer exists.

The modern Labour Party claim to stand for an entity that they were instrumental in destroying......Thank you Mr Blair.

Now if you have nothing constructive to add, I will leave you to dance solo on that pin head.;0)

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 06:17 AM

Is it possible to lead a political party and stay honest ?

Corbyn has been outspoken on things that need to be spoken. However, talking is easy to do if you don't have play a part in doing anything practical about current issues as they arise, either within a party or in government. Action usually involves compromose and sometimes least-worst solutions.

One thing Thatcher left us with (stop hissing) is a trade union movement that can play a proper role in democratic society without frightening political moderates. There seems to be an awareness in 'the centre' that the UK is too unequal, big corporations have too much power and that everything in the shops is imported.

There might be some credible left-wing options to argue for. He might be the person to show that those on the left are the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 06:10 AM

What on earth are the working class if not "Slave labour", victims of exploitation, economic migrants"

You know, the people you tell us don't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 05:55 AM

"Slave labour", victims of exploitation, economic migrants.

Take your pick.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 05:48 AM

Seeing as you didn't answer the question in that little ramble I will ask it again:

"Pray tell, what are low paid, low maintenance workers if not working class"

You know the working class that you tell doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 05:36 AM

The "free movement of labour", was a cynical ploy by the rulers of the EU to provide cheap low maintenance labour to the richer members.
The effects of this migration on the infrastructure of these Eastern European countries is bound to be dire.....who runs their Public Services, who builds their homes?......Only the never to be paid back bribes from EU coffers to soften the disintegration.

Our own people are too expensive to retrain, so we have hit on the ploy of squeezing the benefit system which was used as a tool to keep people quiet when their employment was recycled.

The benefit culture is a disgrace, it demeans humanity, but there must be something to replace it and we must learn to live within our means...and to attain status without obscene wealth differentials.

In answer to your question...."slave labour", victims of exploitation.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 05:05 AM

Akenaton there seems to be a flaw in your argument you state:

" The fact that the "working class" have all but disappeared has little to do with which particular government is in power Richard"

But then go on to say:

"hence the influx of low paid, low maintenance workers, from our new colonies in Eastern Europe"

Pray tell, what are low paid, low maintenance workers if not working class.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 04:38 AM

The fact that the "working class" have all but disappeared has little to do with which particular government is in power Richard.

They are all trying to make a rapacious system work successfully. The Conservative Party are undeniably better at this.

The real reason that the "working class" are no more, is the cyclical nature of Capitalism. If living standards simply become too high and too wasteful as Teribus has demonstrated, the country becomes "uncompetitive in the global market place"......hence the influx of low paid, low maintenance workers, from our new colonies in Eastern Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 04:24 AM

How foolish terribilis. Look at the facts. The share that the rich control has proportionately massively increased. The share that the poor control has diminished. But then I don't expect you to see the truth even if it bites you on the arse.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 03:59 AM

Pots'n'kettles, dear Mr Bridge, pots'n'kettles!

≈M≈

"omission" of what, BTW? Gnomic and incomprehensible azzevva!

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 03:28 AM

"Con-servative policies are simply to better the very richest and oppress the poorest."

Really Bridge?? Then care to explain why the ranks of the rich aren't burgeoning, how and why the numbers of those considered to be "middle-class" is growing rapidly and those who are considered to be working class dropping. BBC's "Rich World" series of programmes had the world economy having doubled in the last twenty years, the numbers of those living in poverty halved and the middle-class being the faster growing social class in the world.

"Oppressed" my backside, ever stood in the departure halls of Stanstead; Luton; Heathrow; Gatwick; Birmingham; Manchester; Newcastle at the height of our holiday season? All those oppressed poor people going off on holiday to destinations that even their parents could only ever have dreamed about. Only the rich that are scooting round in those millions of cars that clog our roads Bridge? Don't think so.

There is only one political party in the UK that has a vested interest in maintaining a voter base of poor and disadvantaged people - the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 15 - 03:10 AM

Ah, confession by omission, you conceited arse.

Subject: RE: BS: £3 paid?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 15 - 10:59 PM

Mr Myer to you, if you please, Mr Bridge -- you unmannerly little jumped-up nonentity.

Still, congratulations on having at last got the correct spelling into your head!