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BS: Politics: UK Labour leadership election

DMcG 30 Jul 15 - 02:05 AM
Mr Red 30 Jul 15 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 30 Jul 15 - 05:01 AM
Acorn4 30 Jul 15 - 10:25 AM
Richard Bridge 30 Jul 15 - 11:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jul 15 - 12:58 PM
Stanron 30 Jul 15 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 30 Jul 15 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 30 Jul 15 - 05:42 PM
Richard Bridge 30 Jul 15 - 06:56 PM
Richard Bridge 30 Jul 15 - 06:57 PM
GUEST 31 Jul 15 - 05:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jul 15 - 06:39 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Jul 15 - 06:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jul 15 - 06:47 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Jul 15 - 06:50 AM
GUEST 31 Jul 15 - 11:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 Jul 15 - 02:56 PM
DMcG 31 Jul 15 - 03:22 PM
akenaton 01 Aug 15 - 07:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Aug 15 - 08:39 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Aug 15 - 08:58 AM
GUEST 01 Aug 15 - 12:59 PM
akenaton 01 Aug 15 - 02:48 PM
DMcG 02 Aug 15 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 02 Aug 15 - 03:18 AM
GUEST 02 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM
GUEST 02 Aug 15 - 04:31 AM
akenaton 02 Aug 15 - 05:00 AM
akenaton 02 Aug 15 - 05:25 AM
Richard Bridge 02 Aug 15 - 12:55 PM
akenaton 02 Aug 15 - 02:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Aug 15 - 05:21 PM
DMcG 03 Aug 15 - 07:43 AM
pdq 03 Aug 15 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Selby 03 Aug 15 - 09:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Aug 15 - 10:23 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Aug 15 - 11:37 AM
akenaton 03 Aug 15 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 03 Aug 15 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Dave 03 Aug 15 - 01:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Aug 15 - 05:14 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Aug 15 - 10:08 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 04 Aug 15 - 02:19 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 Aug 15 - 03:34 AM
akenaton 04 Aug 15 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 04 Aug 15 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 04 Aug 15 - 09:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Aug 15 - 10:34 AM
Stanron 04 Aug 15 - 11:39 AM

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Subject: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 02:05 AM

Dear Other candidate:

If you win but Jeremy gets over 40% of the votes in the first round, in what specific ways would this affect how you lead?


====

The question arose in my mind because I keep hearing the news say that if Jeremy wins he will face an almighty battle to unite the party. I'm not sure that is true, though he will certainly face a battle to unit the Labour MPs. However, if anyone else wins, they may unite the MPs relatively easily, but the battle to unite the party seems as difficult.

My answers: Liz Kendall would answer "Not at all". The others would make soothing noises but would not include anything specific even though the question asks for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 04:46 AM

methinks we are heading into Michael Foot territory. Or a Neil Kinnock era.
Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 05:01 AM

It seems to me that the assertion that the election of Jeremy Corbyn, as Labour Party leader, would damage Labour's unity, credibility and electability became a self-fulfilling prophecy almost as soon as his candidacy was announced! Oh, how we have allowed ourselves to be brainwashed by the neo-liberals on the right!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 10:25 AM

Things polarise during a recession and a left wing candidate might do better than expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 11:47 AM

Anyone other than the totally blinkered knows that neoliberalism has failed and led to greater oppression of the poor by the rich. Creating a New Labour party in the image of the con-servatives will only lead to more of the same. Corbyn is the only person offering anything other than neo-liberalism and oppression and austerity. Already he is speaking to packed rooms. Already he has brought back many many of the young (and some who joined extremist parties in despair stupidity and ignorance) into political activity.

When Corbyn wins, the quislings will rejoin the fold, to save their political careers.

The next battle is to circumnavigate the right-wing media who daily pour out propaganda by the rich for the rich. That will involve the new media and maybe even the dark web. If IS can do it for evil, we can do it for good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 12:58 PM

We need to ask if he is particularly left wing. OK, compared to the present government, yes he is, but if we compare him to the leaders between 1945 and Tory B Liar, how does he measure up? As I said on another thread, the refreshing thing is that he seems honest. Hope he stays that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 02:25 PM

I had this idea about politics just the other day. I'd never heard any one else talk about it so I thought it was all my own. Just today on the Parliament channel an interviewer on a book program came up with the same idea so I guess it's going round. A bit like a disease. It goes like this.

Several hundred years ago there were two political parties. The Tories and the Whigs. The Tories represented the establishment, the powers that be. The Whigs stood for constitutional Monarchy, in it's day a radical position, particularly after the Stuarts. Well the Whigs won that one and kept the Tories out of office for something like 45 years. Of course politics then then was not as democratic as it is now. Political will was the will of land owners and not the common man. By the 19th century Whig radicalism had extended to expanding the electorate. Their reform act of 1832 expanded the franchise and got rid of the 'rotten boroughs', the seats that were owned by landed gentry. Just after that they abolished slavery in the empire and secured Catholic emancipation. All very radical stuff.

After this the Whigs kind of declined and eventually morphed into the Liberal party. By the end of the 19th century the Liberals had formed four governments under Gladstone. They were another radical party and in 1906 they introduced the first measures of what would eventually become the Welfare State. By the end of the 1920s they had more or less been replaced by the Labour party as the radical force in British politics. Labour represented, they said, the working man.

So the Whigs were replaced by the Liberals and the Liberals were replaced by Labour. Each time the Tories were the anti radical party, they wished to 'conserve' the status quo, and each time the status quo changed the Tories were the party who wished to keep things as they were, or rather as they had become, rather than as they were.

So now the unpopular bit. It seems to me that Labour have achieved pretty much all they were expected to achieve. The work place is regulated, safe and fair. The safety net of the Wefare State is pretty firmly established and the National Health Sevice is, despite Labour's scare stories, unlikely to be disassembled any time soon.

Are we about to see the rise of a new radicalism, the like of which we cannot imagine? I suspect that if we are, then it wont be the Labour Party that does it. I'm not sure that UKIP fits the bill either. Any offers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 03:41 PM

except in recent years the tories have become the new radical party, selling up state assets and challenging the existence of many essential and valued institutions of our society. labour are doing their bit to hang on to the NHS, welfare state, bbc, affordable housing, trade unions and an insistence on equality before the law - but seem to lack the conviction to do so effectively.

if labour do ever form a government they will have a hell of a job to retain a sense of confidence and even security in a much degraded society. i reckon this is partly what is driving the desire to support jeremy corbyn and his desire to a state of affairs that most people are happier with. oddly, his appeal is conservative - but in a good way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 05:42 PM

Stanron, the "new radicalism" has to be environmentally based. The old parties have, essentially, 19th century ideologies now deeply corrupted by neo-liberalism. A 21st century party MUST (it has no choice given the state that the earth-system is currently in) put the environment first. The anthropocentrism of the old political ideologies must be ditched in favour of a philosophy that encapsulates the idea that our species can only survive as part of a healthy biosphere. Unfortunately, I don't believe that there's enough time to achieve such a radical shift. The species Homo sapiens is extinct already - we just don't know it yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 06:56 PM

achmelvich, I think you mean "reactionary and backward looking" not "radical". As the remarkable Harry Smith keeps reminding us, the con-servatives are trying to undo the welfare state, dismantle the NHS, and abolish workers' rights. I would ass that they have already dismantled any pretence of equal access to civil or criminal justice.

And they have devalued the word "reform" to make it mean "wreck".


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 15 - 06:57 PM

Rats. Not "ass" but "add".


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 05:57 AM

Some pundits have suggested that to elect Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party would consign the party to another "20 years in the wilderness".
Where do I sign up to vote?


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 06:39 AM

In the words of a friend of mine -

Whatever you think of the guy's politics, you have to admit it's kind of amusing that the man most hated by the British conservative right (who generally claim to adhere to Christian values) just now is a bearded anti-war activist whose main stated aim is to help the poor and disenfranchised, has a definite downer on bankers and the ultra-wealthy, and whose initials are JC.

:-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 06:42 AM

Richard -- Purely as a matter of curiosity, and in no truculent spirit [for once] -- what may be the semiotic or emblemological connotation of your insistence in hyphenating the perfectly common and universally comprehensible word "conservative" (and its derivatives) after the first three letters, please? You clearly wish to make some cogent point by it -- but what?

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 06:47 AM

I am pretty sure that it is a reference to to them conning us Michael. You seem to have misplaced your punny bone... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 06:50 AM

Oh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 11:56 AM

Nurse! He's out of bed again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 02:56 PM

"In the words of a friend of mine -
Whatever you think of the guy's politics, you have to admit it's kind of amusing that the man most hated by the British conservative right (who generally claim to adhere to Christian values) just now is a bearded anti-war activist whose main stated aim is to help the poor and disenfranchised, has a definite downer on bankers and the ultra-wealthy, and whose initials are JC. :-D "

I don't believe he is hated by the Conservative right, he seems the person most likely to ruin the chances of the Labour party at future elections. As such I can imagine that some of the people paying their £3 to get a say in the Labour leadership elections may well be Conservatives hoping to see him win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jul 15 - 03:22 PM

I'm told even the entire Telegraph readership did this the effect would be tiny. But even so, I suspect there are some Tories who might. Which would be a mistake from their point of view, because things would be much more predictable with any of the other three. It's quite possible Labour disappears under Corbyn. But if so, there will be some other party emerges else since a single party system is problematic for the UK. Or there again, there could be an SNP effect: there's a lot who voted Tory who are not died-in-the-wool Conservatives but thought it the best of poor choices. Given a clear image of an alternative could hurt the Conservative party badly.

No, the Conservative party is much safer with one of the others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 07:54 AM

Labour is disintegrating, soon they will be a minority party...like the Greens.
They cannot win the next election, so none of the "electable" people want to stand and be associated with failure.

The Labour Party and it's supporters are to blame for losing their vision and their principles.

The electorate has been hoodwinked for years, with   pretend equality and pretend democracy. Now we are ruled by "liberal" fascists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 08:39 AM

I have said it before but can never say it often enough. You don't half talk shite, ake. I suspect you will be dead long before that happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 08:58 AM

Mr Red, if you're the sort who cheers our soldiers off to war and who "just rejoices" when they knock off a few Argies - this being jingoistic mood that took Michael Foot to crushing defeat in 1983 - you will indeed find Corbyn a great disappointment. Crazy as it is, he would rather talk and negotiate than send troops into battle!

On most of his specifics - Trident, rail ownership, progressive taxation etc - public opinion is on Corbyn's side. But he will have to endure much vilification before he wins the leadership race. In part it comes from the Westminster opportunists who have had Labour in its grip since John Smith died in 1974. And just as damaging, it will come from power-at-any-price "leftish" commentators like John Rentoul and Andrew Rawnsley, who would rather their contacts and buddies were chauffeur-driven ministers than footslogging backbenchers.

Even his fiercest critics can't deny that Corbyn will bring sobriety and maturity to the dispatch box. Puerile grandstanding is just not his style. In the unlikely event that he loses, one thing is certain: the anti-Trident, anti-austerity Greens will see a huge rise in their membership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 12:59 PM

Corbyn is principled, yes.

He stands for many things Kier Hardy would have approved of, yes.

His ideas were relevant back when a few million of us were employed in manufacturing industry and the "middle class" was smaller sized.

The "middle class" is very large, very aspirational and very cautious when it comes to someone who doesn't understand that red rosettes and donkeys are from a time when people believed what they were told to believe.

Religion is dying for the same reason. Dogma doesn't cut it with a sophisticated electorate. If anyone hadn't noticed, becoming leader of a party isn't an end in itself, it is a means to getting your hands on the keys to No.10. Considering how many people couldn't trust Miliband, and to be fair, none of the other candidates are even any better than he was, Corbyn could win the party but lose the country.

Labour under Corbyn could well be a long term good thing and put a focus on real issues, but at the expense of not getting power till he steps down for a leader who people could trust with commerce, finance, defence, diplomacy, business.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 15 - 02:48 PM

Correct GUEST, but there is another alternative.
Change the system......it will have to be done sometime.

The aspirational middle class will further divide society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 02:38 AM

Change the system

What system do you know of that has worked, ake? Churchill's quip that Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others" has some truth in it.

The most natural form of government seems to be a dictator or tiny elite with everyone else having to do what they are told: after all, that's how just about every company in the world runs, and many countries. And almost every 'parish council' or its equivalent.

It is very easy to campaign for change and almost every contender for every election uses the 'time for change' slogan in some form. Saying exactly what the change should be, though, is a lot more difficult. For example, one might propose in the Internet age everyone is able to vote on every issue. It doesn't take long to see the drawbacks to that, such as the massive influence it would give to some in the media, or how we could find ourselves governed by emotional waves rather than any sort of coherent plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 03:18 AM

There's an awful lot of truth in what you say, DMcG. I would also add that, the older I get, the more I realise that a huge percentage of the electorate don't deserve democracy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM

If Corbyn was elected and gained respect as leader of the opposition the Lib Dems would probably have to take on those of his policies that have support in the centre (see article linked above). By 2020 a lot of Lib Dem supporters will have forgotten about the coalition but the party will know not to risk it again. It may be the best way of getting the Tories out and also have a socialist party with some integrity, even if only getting a share of power through a coalition.

I am probably wrong but would like to hear why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 04:31 AM

I meant forgotten about the coalition with the Tories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:00 AM

Yes I agree 100% with what you say DmG, there is such a thing as too much "freedom", and "equality" is a myth which even if it was attainable would be little benefit to society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:25 AM

Until we learn that aspiration for personal wealth and personal "freedoms" is a curse, society will continue to disintegrate.

Other countries have managed to build proper public services, though personally poor financially....They do not abuse what they themselves have created.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 12:55 PM

Ake - you seem repeatedly to contradict yourself. I still see no coherent vision for progress from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 02:12 PM

Richard, you claim to be some sort of armchair socialist, have you ever been out on the march for a decent wage....when we got £8 per week, or had your head split open by people who though we had no right to protest US involvement in Vietnam?

40 years in the CP and you say I have no credibility regarding politics?
I have said that constantly changing parties to make sure the cursed machine keeps running is madness.....the problem is the fucking machine itself, it has run out of fuel.....you know what it runs on? Exploitation, theft and aspiration. I have a vision but you wouldn't like it, for you would be out in the fields losing your belly.

Lets hear your views on how we build a better society instead of your constant whinging and nit picking


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 15 - 05:21 PM

Once again, shite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 07:43 AM

Like so many of these things, that list is more problematic than it seems. Freedom and equality are not good bedfellows since effective equality usually needs some regulation which is a limitation on freedom. Bringing the thread back to the Labour candidates the impression given is that Corbyn is more inclined to balance things towards equality whereas the others are more towards the freedom side in the tradeoff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: pdq
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 08:54 AM

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
                ~ Benjamin Franklin


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 09:53 AM

Politics in this country has run out of steam. We and I suspect many others do not see our MP until an election is due. We all bumble along slagging each other of because we are red blue yellow or any other colour that does not fit with our individuality. The world has changed and a better approach is required but it suits ALL career politicians to keep the same same old


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 10:23 AM

If Jeremy Corbyn ran your local pub

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 11:37 AM

There's no doubt in my mind that Jeremy Corbyn is a damn fine Human Being (deliberate capital letters) and that he eschews policies and ambitions that demonstrate the very best 0f human qualities.

But, sadly, I believe that his election to the leadership of the Labour Party will result in the party becoming completely unelectable - not because there's anything wrong with Corbyn or his policies, but simply because the vile, disgraceful lies and shit-slinging by the Tories and the Tory Press have brainwashed floating- and MOR-voters into believing that the Labour Party, and particularly those very policies that Corbyn espouses, are the root cause of all that's been wrong in the UK since before the financial crash of 2008.

The Labour Party and its supporters in the Press need to get their act together, stop attacking one another, and get hold of the Tories by the balls and squeeze until their arrogant, self-serving eyes are out on stalks. Metaphorically speaking, of course! :-)

They are the opposition. Time to bloody well OPPOSE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 12:09 PM

BWM....what do you wish to oppose?
The Conservative govt are in the business of getting the economy into some sort of shape, they are attacking the benefits system, using Eastern European labour to produce a little growth, encouraging wealth differentials, all policies which will be effective in the short term.
Within a few years they will be turfed out and a "liberal" govt of some description elected .....it will keep itself in power by giving handouts and borrowing money just like they always do....and the wealth gap will continue to widen..... so the circus goes on.    There is only one thing to be opposed and that is the machine itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 12:30 PM

Dave. If Jeremy Corbyn ran my local you'd never get me out of the place. I've heard him speak at two rallies since he announced his candidacy (the one in Liverpool last Saturday attracted over a thousand people). What impressed me wasn't just his candour, or the fact that he reiterated virtually everything I believe in. It was that his speech took in such a huge field. He didn't just talk about the things which most people would consider mainstream socialism, although they were certainly in there. He brought in women's rights, gay rights, the torture regime in Eritrea, children having to go hungry during school holidays (yes, folks, this is 2015) because the school meals kitchens were closed, climate change, fracking, the disgusting mess we are making of the planet, and much, much, more.

Two things impressed me more than anything else though. The first was the way that capitalism stifles the artistic endeavours of ordinary people, and the role which art will fulfill in the new society. "Everyone has a genius inside them", he said. And by God he was right.

The second came right at the close when he said we have to forge an end to this dog-eat-dog/rat-race/competition-led-ethos which currently surrounds all of human existence, and let us instead build a society where everyone cares for everyone else worldwide. "You can call it Humanism or Christianity, or Humanitarianism", he said. "I call it Socialism".

Is Jeremy Corbyn the man to lead Labour to victory at the next general election? Personally I don't think he is, and I don't think he is because if ever he came within breathing space of victory, the media and the establishment would bury him just like they buried Jesus Christ and the Diggers and the Tolpuddle martyrs and the Chartists and Joe Hill, and everyone else who had the brass neck to stand up and shout for a fair and equal world.

But let's look beyond 2020. For more decades than I care to remember, the left in Britain has been wandering round like a lost dog, alienated, thwarted, and totally demoralised. That is partly the result of Thatcher and the lengths she went to to crush the unions, and it is also the result of Tony Blair's efforts to sell us his ersatz version of toryism.

What I saw at those two rallies was a left wing which has been galvanised back into action. At long last, it has picked itself up off the floor and it is fighting back. Let a million red banners be unfurled. The people are on the march again.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/jeremy-corbyn-tells-echo-i-9774468


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 01:45 PM

I agree with Fred. And with Jeremy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 05:14 PM

I think you are right about the media, BWM, but what worries me is how and why has it happened? You and I can see it. I don't know about you but I am not particularly cynical and tend to take people on trust. I know when someone is trying to manipulate me though. Why can others not see it? Why are those MOR and floating voters so easily fooled? Why are some people on Mudcat so under the spell of the media barons? I can only shake my head at some of the comments made here at times, particularly by those who espouse that things must be true because they read it in the paper or saw it on TV!

Still, what a boring world it would be if we were all the same. Safer, fairer, cleaner and greener, But boring... :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 15 - 10:08 PM

Yes, BWM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 02:19 AM

I can't believe how both TV presenters and Labour speaker after Labour speaker let Tory speakers away with the "historically we are the fiscally responsible ones" argument in the run up to the election. The stats just don't seem to show that. Since Thatcher came to power there have only been 6 years when there was a surplus and 4 of them have been under Labour with only 2 under the Tories! If you discount the figures since the 2008 credit crunch (a massive and rare world event) then yes Labour may have had a big deficit but it was no worse than John Major's was and they average out almost exactly the same with Labour's figures only being slightly better than the Tories.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/oct/18/deficit-debt-government-borrowing-data#img-1


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 03:34 AM

You're right, of course, Allan. Just before the election a letter, from 100 or so 'business leaders', was published, and widely publicised in the media, stating that they only trusted the Tories with the economy. But I read in the Independent business section that 50 or so leading economists wrote another letter stating that austerity wasn't working and that the rate of recovery from the recession, under the coalition government, was much slower than it should have been; this letter received almost no publicity (who reads the business section of the Independent?).


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 04:10 AM

What you seem to be saying Allan, is that Labour and Conservative are equally ineffective in making the UK economically viable and constructing a society which gives everyone a chance of a fulfilling life?

Does that not bear out my point?.....for change to be effected, the source of the problem has to be addressed, we are simply uncompetitive globally and no amount of smoke and mirrors will make us so.

A smaller unit like an Independent Scotland could survive economically..... with the will on the part of the population, but it will require sacrifices.
In Scotland, the Labour Party is gone for good and with it the UK main office.   They represent no major group in the political spectrum any longer.
I expect to see in an independent Scotland, a real battle between the traditional conservative elements and some proper socialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 07:06 AM

One really has to wonder about the news coverage in the UK. On the same theme I noticed this story today. Woman (who is now a sitting Labour MP in the Liverpool area) up working for Better Together during the referendum was charged with assault on a Yes campaigner at the polling station. The case has been dropped on a legality though the Crown Prosecution say they are going to represent it today!

Now I know that everyone is innocent until found guilty so it is not so much what did and what didn't actually happen! But I just couldn't believe the fact that this is the first time I'd even heard of this story! You can rest assured that had it be a Yes Campaign worker, who was now an SNP MP, who was accused of the assault then it would have been splashed on the front page of all the tabloids.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-33765416


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 09:54 AM

here's some interesting comment from the 'national' newspaper. please note how welcoming the scottish independence movement is (and has been throughout) to positive ideas from england.



http://www.thenational.scot/comment/cat-boyd-jeremy-corbyn-could-be-best-thing-to-happen-to-english-democracy-in-generations.5936


come on comrades - allow yourself a bit of hope - it's been a long time coming


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 10:34 AM

Very astute comment :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Polics: UK Labour leadership election
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Aug 15 - 11:39 AM

Fancy some cold water being poured over rosy dreams?

Remember Greece.

A strongly left wing party sold the hope of an end to austerity to an electorate who bought it hook, line and sinker. What was the result? A near bankrupt country and even more austerity. Oh yes and a referendum that then got ignored. More hopes dashed.


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