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why do singers take so long to start?

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GUEST,Stim 17 Aug 15 - 09:35 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Aug 15 - 02:07 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Aug 15 - 03:14 AM
wysiwyg 18 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,JHW 19 Aug 15 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Aug 15 - 12:45 PM
Megan L 19 Aug 15 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Aug 15 - 04:56 PM
The Sandman 19 Aug 15 - 05:02 PM
Don Firth 19 Aug 15 - 09:38 PM
Stanron 19 Aug 15 - 10:08 PM
Don Firth 19 Aug 15 - 10:09 PM
Deckman 19 Aug 15 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Aug 15 - 04:11 AM
MartinRyan 20 Aug 15 - 05:32 AM
Deckman 20 Aug 15 - 06:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Aug 15 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 20 Aug 15 - 08:41 AM
The Sandman 20 Aug 15 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 20 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM
Don Firth 20 Aug 15 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Aug 15 - 12:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Aug 15 - 02:46 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 15 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Aug 15 - 03:53 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 15 - 04:53 PM
The Sandman 21 Aug 15 - 07:43 PM
Don Firth 21 Aug 15 - 08:25 PM
SunrayFC 21 Aug 15 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Aug 15 - 11:24 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 Aug 15 - 02:03 AM
Joe Offer 22 Aug 15 - 02:18 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Aug 15 - 03:19 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Aug 15 - 07:12 AM
SunrayFC 22 Aug 15 - 12:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 Aug 15 - 02:24 PM
SunrayFC 22 Aug 15 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Ripov 23 Aug 15 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,leeneia 24 Aug 15 - 01:13 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 24 Aug 15 - 08:09 AM
Megan L 24 Aug 15 - 09:00 AM
Stanron 24 Aug 15 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 Aug 15 - 11:33 AM
Jack Campin 24 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM
The Sandman 24 Aug 15 - 03:56 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Aug 15 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Aug 15 - 05:25 PM
Don Firth 24 Aug 15 - 07:55 PM
Deckman 24 Aug 15 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,Musket 25 Aug 15 - 02:18 AM
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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 09:35 PM

Answering the question, "What to do?'--This is not a difficult problem to solve!

I organize and lead a monthly hymn sing(in a religious meeting that has a principled objection to the idea of any sort of leading). with a pianist who is an excellent sight reader, and we've instituted a "60 second rule" which simple is that no more than 60 seconds are allowed to elapse from the end of one hymn to the beginning of another. People in the group call out hymns(and, hopefully, their page number) and sing them.

Of course, this is not all there is to it, there are a couple secret tricks to keep it going--first, though people from the group call our tunes, and all seems spontaneous, I am "the decider" and subtly let George know which of the tunes called we'll actually do next, second, I keep a written out list of the favorite songs of the group, and when their is indirection, I've got something immediately ready so that there is no lag.

Also, when we do a difficult song, meaning one that doesn't work for one reason or another, I move immediately into a favorite. This is important because we have a few folks who call out songs they don't really know, and that are unfamiliar to the group--

I do try to get to everything that is called out, so people don't feel like they've been overlooked, and when new people join us, I make a point of finding something that is special to them, and when possible, I, or one of the regulars will pair with them on the song--

The thing is, I think don't think that the group should just let someone who isn't prepared take control of things, which is really what is happening above--I have three priorities: to keep it moving, to keep it interesting, and to make everyone feel like they are part of things. I try not to let anyone get in the way of that, including myself---


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 02:07 AM

leenia - i'm not sure anybody will find their way there. its a lovely place -its where Lawrence of Arabia is buried - but its somewhat off the beaten track.

Stim - i love the idea of a 60 second interval. a red hot poker up the roozle for anyone holding things up.

Ringbinder Blues
Got those Ringbinder blues down by Weymouth Bay
Folksingers there can't sing no other way
Memory is so bad
They cling onto notepads
Singing folksongs down by Weymouth Bay
Meanwhile down in Bridport
Singing at The Woodman Inn
Thought I'd sing Tom Paxton – but I don't like to begin
Lesson too late for the learning to you My Rambling Boy
If I could remember the next bit
I'd be overcome with joy!
(apologies to jesse Fuller)


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 03:14 AM

Al. Ask the staff if they remember the greyhound who called with his slaves a few times last month and demolished a tub of diabetic ice cream each time... By the third time we called after a walk, a waitress said "good afternoon Rio" to him.

Bloody dog would be a bar fly if we let him...


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 08:00 AM

I used the angst expressed here to model how to prevent this issue, at a new quarterly song/story circle we instituted Sunday evening. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:56 AM

The first Festival I went to was at Cleethorpes. Everything was on the Pier and the Singing was continuous in the Bar.
No MC. You had to have your song ready to start words and right key and be straight in quicker than a dog's unmentionable the moment the last song finished OR YOU DIDN'T GET TO SING!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 12:45 PM

My name is mauvepink (on Mudcat, at least) and I am a less than perfect singer with a less than perfect guitar style and less a than perfect memory. I'm a sinner...

I have just read through the thread and have found the occasional welcoming and reassuring comments from those folk who seem to embrace a more open approach to singers who are less than perfect. It would not surprise me at all to find that those free thinkers also remember that they too were once not as good as they may now be and how it was when they started out.

I have frequented a great many folk club these past 8 years and the ones I ended up gravitated toward were/are the ones with an open minded membership who welcome all songs as folk songs and those members who are not quite as good at is as some others are still being welcome. Where crib sheets are not frowned up (the good sign of which is a music stand available at the front) and where you will not get threatened if you dare sing a country song!

These days I go to more open mics than I do folk clubs. Why? Well, I get to sing more songs for one thing but another reason is that, generally, the ones I go to have good folk running them and care about helping each performer sound the best they can. These open mics are full of 'kids', often, who have embraced what seems to be an acoustic revival and want to go out there and jam with their friends. It is a fertile breeding ground for some fantastic nights and a whole mish mash of genre without judgement.

The folk clubs I still attend would welcome them with open arms and see it as meeting half way to see that our musical future and heriatge is in good hands.

One club I go to has a session at the end of night designed especially for newcomers where they are encouraged and given help to be involved with more experienced members. I attend an open mic where the 'owner' also helps out those who may struggle a bit.

I understand the need for perfection, especially from people you are paying to perform, but I would expect a modicum of acceptancce and understanding for those lesser mortals, like me, who mess up every now and then and need to read the words.

I can onlt aspire to be as good as some of the people I have met and meet at such functions. Their open mindedness makes me feel welcome and allows me a chance to become better because they cut me some slack. It's not too bad a philosophy really and their functions are always well attended.

I know where I am welcome. I, like so many, stay away from the places where you run the risk of abuse from those who think themselves perfect. The sad thing is you have to attend a place before you know what kind of place it is and that can then be too late because some can be extremely rude and unkind.

No finger pointing within the thread. Nothing personal is meant. This is merely my experience and opinion. I just think sometimes we forget what it was like when we struggled...


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 01:31 PM

Well said mauvepink


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 04:56 PM

and ditto from me too. I try to give respect to all, whatever their standard, and hope for the same.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:02 PM

"I understand the need for perfection, especially from people you are paying to perform, but I would expect a modicum of acceptancce and understanding for those lesser mortals, like me, who mess up every now and then and need to read the words"
I am afraid you do not understand,performance is not about perfection, it is about learning how to cope calmly with your mistakes. Everyone can occasionally forget the words including Elvis Presley, THAT IS PART AND PARCEL OF PERFORMING.
How you deal with it, is part of performance, if you mess up now and again, you do not need to read the words, what you do is ad lib, or go to the next verse or sing a chorus.
what you suggest, is akin to riding a bicycle and when you fall off you go back to riding with stabilisers, well that way you never learn to ride a bike without stabilisers, you carry on like that you will never get the confidence to sing without words.
it is possible to sing well with words,but few people do, if people practised their songs with words they might be better at performing, they MIGHT look at the audience, TRAINED ACTORS can perform well with a word sheet, why, because they feckin well practice, they make contact with the audience, but far too often it is an excuse for amatuerism, unpreparedness, and fumbling paper shuffling, and poor performance.
liberate yourself throw away words, if you make a mistake learn to deal with it,carry on , or make a joke or sing the chorus or the next verse.
if this is any consolation here is Elvis, this might give you confidence not to worry about mistakeshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSeTA3549So


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 09:38 PM

Good comparison, Good Soldier Schweik!

It isn't a matter of not being "open-minded," mauvepink, it's a matter of concern for those who never even attempt to ride their bicycle without the training-wheels and taking the chance of a possible tumble and a skinned knee or two. You are voluntarily limiting yourself to the point where you will never achieve what you could achieve.

To mix metaphors a bit, if you insist on using the crutch all the time, you'll never learn to walk without it.

When I first started singing (back in prehistoric times, it seems—in the early 1950s), not all that many of us had professional aspirations, but when we brought a guitar or banjo—or just ourselves—to a "hoot," none of us brought songbooks or notebooks or crib sheets with us. Unless it happened to be a list of the titles of songs we had learned, and that was generally taped to the side of our instrument. Our repertoire may have been small, but it was carried in our heads.

Everyone had his or her own way of going about it, but the way I learned a song was to listen to the record repeatedly while copying down the words in longhand. By the time I had the words written down, I had heard the song several times, and the tune was pretty solidly in my ear, as were some of the words. Then, over the next couple of days, I would carry the words around with me (usually folded up in a shirt pocket) and try to sing the song through, taking the words out and checking only when I got stuck.

Or if I was learning it out of a song book, I would copy the words in longhand, which helped me memorize them, and although I'm not the greatest sight-reader in the world, I play the tune on the guitar until I had it in my head—then put the two together.   

At night, before going to bed, I would quietly sing the song in my head or quietly to myself, checking the words only when necessary, and often fall asleep that way. That put the old subconscious to work.

Generally, within a couple of days, I had the song memorized. Generally, after a day or two, I would work out a guitar accompaniment and attempt to put the song and the accompaniment together. And I would run the song through my head both with and without accompaniment

Usually, within a week, I had it. And would cinch it down at the following hoot or session. And if I did happen to blow it, strangely enough, the world didn't come to an end.      

AND

Among other things, if you are singing from memory and you do blow it, you can often cover it. Once, on live television (no teleprompter or cue-cards), I did forget the words. It was a version of The Gypsy Davey. About three verses into the song, I blanked out. I suppressed a coronary while I launched into playing the melody on the guitar. I was using a sort of Carter Family strum, and I picked out the melody with my thumb a la Maybelle Carter, and prayed to Orpheus to let me remember the words. By the time I reached the end of the verse played on the guitar, the words had come back to me.   

Afterward, I asked people who had watch the show. Nobody had noticed! They just assumed that I normally put an instrumental interlude there

I once saw Andres Segovia goof in a concert. He got all bollixed up on a Bach transcription. Without missing a beat, he started the passage over again. I spotted it because I knew the piece, but he covered his goof so smoothly that I doubt that more than three or four people in an audience of a couple of thousand even noticed!   

You don't learn how to do this sort of thing unless it happens to you.

And you're not going to learn this sort of thing with your nose in a book!

C'mon! Take the training wheels off your bicycle and give it a shot! You might surprise yourself!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:08 PM

Got to agree with Don on this. The only difference between an amateur and a professional is that when a professional makes a mistake 80 to 90 percent of the audience don't notice. When an amateur makes a mistake 70 to 80 per cent of the audience don't notice. When some one stops and says "Oops, I blew it" at least 50 per cent of the audience will notice.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:09 PM

I have a repertoire of about three-hundred songs. I once asked Richard Dyer-Bennet how many songs he knew and he said about seven-hundred!

Takes a while....

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 11:00 PM

I do believe that Don's repertoire is much greater than seven hundred, bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:11 AM

My songbook is around 700 these days. 25% I know without any back up. 25% I have my safety wheels in place. 50% I will often read when I play them occasionally. I am not afraid to try new stuff and I certainly agree writing them out helps the memory retain better... but not always. As I have got older I like having some safety built in. Falls at my agd can be life changing!

I am not saying never try to learn. I am merely advocating accepting that many folk will never be as good as you but there will always be someone better. I practise every day. I do not rest on my laurals but some days I am lazy. I am not quite as inept as I may have come across but I work hard to improve and that is the most I can do, with or without stabilisers! (Great anology by the way)

mp


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 05:32 AM

I remember meeting the late great Irish singer Frank Harte many years ago, when he was trying to migrate an index of all his songs and some basic data from one computer system to another (I think the source file was on a BBC micro, which will tell you how long ago it was!). He was moving them in batches, for some reason - and was "somewhere in the 3,000's" as we spoke...

Regards


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 06:14 AM

To have a working repertoire of several thousand songs is not uncommon. The late David Spence, of California in the early 1960's, certainly attained this. Also the late John Dwyer could rattle off songs at a mention that would give pause to any collector. Don Firth is certainly in that same crowd. But by far, the most astounding of all is Paddy Grabber, of N.W. Canada.

Many years ago, the late Walt Robertson and I used to entertain ourselves, ususally when we were driving to new fishing fishing hole, by creating entire (and very silly)conversations using nothing more than phrases from one song or ballad after another.

It's great way to keep your mind and memory alert, and it doesn't hurt anyone. Besides ... it's free! CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 07:07 AM

i think its to do with nakedness. why would you want to sing a song in public that you didn't know. in a way it makes no sense.

but people have a need to expose themselves as something more than a societal unit. they need to stand tall ....its harmless. its healthy even..self expression....   a sort of emotional naturism.

it does lead to some strange sights though. one place i used to go occasionally. a bloke used to get up to the mic. hold up a piece of paper and read (not sing) the words of CrystalChandelier - like a shopping list.

i often wonder what he got out of it - what he expected us to get out of it. still, it must have fed a need inside him, and it did no real harm.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 08:41 AM

My comments weren't about being perfect. In fact I am far from that myself especially in regard to guitar playing. I do think though that if you are playing to people - who may not be paying but are there to enjoy themselves all the same - then some amount of basic preparation should be done. That is have some idea of what you are going to do (I concede someone may then change their mind) rather than always spend the first few minutes of your turn flapping about deciding what you should do - and if you are playing guitar accompaniment yourself then write down what key you play it in so you don't have to regularly stop after the first verse and start over placing the capo somewhere else. Things like that are just little bits of basic preparation that have little relevance to actual musical/ performance ability.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 01:17 PM

"Things like that are just little bits of basic preparation that have little relevance to actual musical/ performance ability."
i think you are incorrect, basic preparation has much to do with performance, that is what Alexander technique is partly about.
professor Alexander was a professional performer, amongst other things.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM

Maybe I didn't phrase it so well. I was meaning that anybody can be prepared even if they aren't a really proficient musician or wonderful singer etc. And like you suggest whatever standard you are basic preparation helps you give as good a performance as you can give!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 09:30 PM

Above, at 14 Aug 15 - 07:45 PM, I described how a group of young singers, many of them teen-agers, learned and sang--on stage--full length operas. Operas which were sometimes three or more hours long.

One thing I didn't mention was that these were in the original languages. Faust was in French and the others mentioned, Rigoletto, I Pagliacci, and Cavalleria Rusticana were in Italian.

Quite a feat.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 12:23 PM

Not only is the looking for their songs in notebooks annoying, but also, some musicians, when introducing an original song, go into long-winded, unnecessary, BORING, explanations of every detail of how, why, and every emotional aspect of writing their piece. Of course, those songs may have personal significance to the singer/songwriter, but the audience, by and large, don't care about all that. Just play the piece, and let the music speak for itself. Save the 'interviews' for interested listeners. Word may/should spread, by itself, IF people like the song!
And a word to the wise: DO NOT place TWO slow blues pieces back to back. You will lose your audiences attention....whether you think so or not!...(Top Professional musicians know this, as well).

Good luck with good licks, and keep playin'!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 02:46 PM

some times the longwinded introduction is the best bit, and it goes downhill when the music starts.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 03:44 PM

I do, from time to time, introduce a song with "program notes," if I feel that it enhances the audience's enjoyment of the song. But never more than the brief comments you might find on the back of a record jacket.

It's a major boo-boo to fall into the category where it can be said of you that, "I knew he was a folk singer because he spent fifteen minutes introducing a three minute song."

I've heard people do that sort of thing. Bad!

Don Firth

P. S. I heard once heard one guy rattle on for about ten or fifteen minutes and then forget what song he was introducing!!   Not cute! But it was pretty funny. Not the way the singer would have intended it, though….


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 03:53 PM

Gosh Don, when you expound on music, you shine....

GfS


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 04:53 PM

Actually, GfS, I scintillate in most fields. I'm a bit weak in quantum physics, however....

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 07:43 PM

I remember the Rev Ken Loveless giving a long introduction to the twelve days of christmas and pontificating on the correct pronounciation of partridge.
and then starting with








On the 12th day of Christmas
my true love sent to me:
A Partridge in a Pear Tree


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 08:25 PM

Wow! Time really flies!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: SunrayFC
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 10:04 PM

On Tuesday, I said very little.....I just sang my three songs....


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 11:24 PM

So, did you get any feedback, one way or the other?
Talk to me.

GfS


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 02:03 AM

Interesting.

Some of us, myself very much included, are pointing out that trying to entertain people whilst ignorant people have their heads stuck in books rather than listen to you isn't exactly nice.

Some on here think that is attacking those who need crib sheets.

No. It's attacking those of any ability who think the audience is more interested in their next offering than what is being sung at the time. That ignorance is inversely proportional to ability is mere coincidence...


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 02:18 AM

I sing a cappella. If it's quiet, I can almost always start a song on the right note and stay in key. Conversation sets me off a bit, and guitar tuning and strumming and particularly autoharps make the tune and key disappear from my head completely. So, I sometimes talk about a song until the people quiet down and my head is clear and the melody comes back to mind.
Seems much nicer than saying, "Shut the fuck up!" and then sitting in silence until the melody comes back into my head....
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 03:19 AM

Nobody ever heard of multi-tasking? I can do at least two things at once - hell, I'm watching a movie as I type this - so looking through my little book of set-lists to avoid repeating songs I did at a club the previous time I was there, and noting down my next song whilst listening to the person currently performing, is no big deal.

I'm personally far less offended by the guy leafing through his ring-binder while I'm performing than I am by the one who gets up to go to the bar, or take a piss, every time my turn comes around to perform! 😎


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 07:12 AM

Well hide my bleeding pint from me then!

😋


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: SunrayFC
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 12:06 PM

When I sang on Thursday they responded in good fashion. Sang heartily. A wonderful experience.

No ringbinder.

Guys....throw them away and learn to perform...


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 02:24 PM

Thursday was a weird night...some very odd characters...not you Bob, well no more than usual.

who would have thought there were so many strange poets in Yeovil? What is it about about Yeovil that inspires them? Why have they all got beards/ Do they know each other?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: SunrayFC
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 07:10 PM

Were we in the same place as I didn't see any "poets"....loads of beards.
It is a weird place.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Ripov
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 07:02 PM

Dunno about partridges, but I remember a talk about the importance of correct "pronounciation". I never worked out if it was deliberate or not, but it certainly got the message over"=!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 01:13 AM

"Guys....throw them away and learn to perform..."

Forget that.

When my nieces and nephew were little, I used to get out my guitar and sing children's song for and with them. How they loved it!

Was I performing? No, I was simply being family to them. They didn't care if I sang well or if I hit a wrong chord. I was showing that I cared about them.

In the same way, a person singing at the folk club doesn't have to be a performer. Such a singer can just be a pal, sharing a piece of worthwhile music in an environment which ought to be comfortable, in order to bring out the best in people.

Performances are for stage, screen and television.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:09 AM

"In the same way, a person singing at the folk club doesn't have to be a performer ... Performances are for stage, screen and television."

I couldn't disagree more. This attitude is at the root of the problem that this thread is discussing.

I'm not talking about performing in a stage sense, and I agree that style of performance is often not appropriate for folk music. By "performance" I just mean the ability to deliver a song so that people will want to listen to it. If you are going to sing a song to an audience, then that's a performance.

Folk music puts the song itself above the singer. It is not necessary to have a beautiful voice or to be a brilliant accompanist, and these can sometimes get in the way of the song. All that is necessary is to deliver the song effectively, so the audience can enjoy it.

Before you set even out to the folk club, choose a few songs and practice them. Find which pitch suits your voice, think about what the song is about and what you want to get across to the audience, think about phrasing and breathing. For preference, memorise the words (not least because doing so will help you with the other aspects) but if you really cannot then learn to sing from a book effectively, rather than just reading the text.

None of this is difficult, and it is quite separate from matters of vocal technique which is of far less importance in this context. It is simply about preparation. If someone cannot be bothered to learn how to put a song across, why should they expect people to be bothered to listen?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Megan L
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 09:00 AM

Never mind old folks when you die so will folk clubs so there won't be a problem with people not being word perfect. Should we now discus why there are so few young people in folk clubs


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 09:59 AM

Are you suggesting that young folk don't go because old folk take too long to get started?


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 11:33 AM

Performances are also for those who got off their arses and went out to be entertained.

Musical ability in a sing around isn't necessary and a love of what you are doing will come over loud and proud. But if people are giving you the courtesy of listening, do them the courtesy of doing you best.

Or out another way, wot Howard Jones said.

By the way, one way of improving, should you wish to do so is to listen and in the case of instrumentalists, watch others instead of having your head buried in the book, deciding if two weeks since you sang Wild Mountain Thyme is long enough a gap.

Backwoodsman said that those who go for a piss when he is singing are the ones that irritate him most. I know he will be reading this but all the same, those who get up when John sings and plays aren't interested in music. I personally sit cross legged if necessary because here is someone who does learn, who does think about how his accompaniment should sound and practices songs before singing them. Yes, he too occasionally has an iPad in front of him, but as an aide memoire, (he is, of course, much much older than me) not as something he is reading for the first time. That he is an accomplished musician is, when you think about it, irrelevant, but nice to hear as a bonus.

Another person who he and I occasionally hear is very much a beginner at the ripe old age of 60ish but each week you hear improvement, you can tell he is practicing and wanting to entertain. it isn't something you'd pay to hear, it isn't something you'd call entertainment (yet) but it is wonderful to hear the improvement week on week. His latest achievement was to throw the crutch away and fly commando. (Book shut.)


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM

Are you suggesting that young folk don't go because old folk take too long to get started?

To some extent, yes. Some old people's behaviour is irritating to other people the same age and completely intolerable to anyone younger. If I want the experience of standing in a queue while the customer being served can't be bothered getting their money out in advance because they positively enjoy spending all day there, I can go to the supermarket for it.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 03:56 PM

JACK have you tired transcendental meditation, it helps you to stop getting irritated, next time you are in a supermarket and someone in front of you is enjoying the experience of taking their time, follow suit, sit down in the queue in the lotus position, and keep the next person waiting


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 04:23 PM

I agree with Howard, Musket (apart from the bit about me, which modesty prevents me from commenting on, but I'm very gratified, and would like to say that Musket ain't half bad either! 👍😎), and Jack. I have no experience of transcendental meditation, unless staring into a pint of Monkey Wrench qualifies, so I'm unable to say whether I agree or disagree with GSS, but it sounds like something worth considering!


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 05:25 PM

if you recognize them from before, try to get in line before them and then do it.


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:55 PM

I'm afraid that a few people here have managed to hitch the donkey to the cart wrong end forward.

It's not the younger people leaving folk clubs, song circles, and such because geezers like me spend too long drooling on their song books and crib sheets, it's the singers (like me, and Bob Nelson, and several others who've spoken up on this thread—including a number of younger singers!!) who have taken the time to learn the songs they intend to sing before going to the meetings. And who, then, have to wait around while singers new to the club or circle waste everybody's time leafing through song books and three-ring binders, trying to decide what they're going to sing, then dither and mumble their way through a song that, not only have they not bothered to learn and obviously don't know what it's even about, but they can't even be bothered to choose ahead of time. So we leave and form groups of our own. It's the singers who like the songs well enough to learn them that get fed up with the people who can't be bothered.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with both Howard Jones and Musket.

Sorry! But them's my sediments.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:33 PM

GEEZE LOUISE, DON ... why don't you stop beating around the bush and just simply say what you mean ... in plain Inglish! bad bad bob


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Subject: RE: why do singers take so long to start?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 02:18 AM

Don apologising for agreeing with me.

I'll take that.

😎


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