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BS: electing a new labour leader

McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 15 - 06:52 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 03 Sep 15 - 06:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 15 - 06:30 PM
akenaton 03 Sep 15 - 06:17 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Sep 15 - 05:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 15 - 05:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Sep 15 - 05:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Sep 15 - 05:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 15 - 04:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Sep 15 - 08:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 15 - 08:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 15 - 08:22 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 15 - 07:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 15 - 07:35 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 15 - 07:24 AM
akenaton 02 Sep 15 - 04:03 AM
akenaton 02 Sep 15 - 03:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Sep 15 - 07:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Aug 15 - 08:40 AM
oggie 31 Aug 15 - 08:17 AM
DMcG 31 Aug 15 - 08:12 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 15 - 07:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 15 - 06:39 AM
akenaton 30 Aug 15 - 06:42 PM
akenaton 30 Aug 15 - 06:28 PM
akenaton 30 Aug 15 - 11:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Aug 15 - 11:05 AM
akenaton 30 Aug 15 - 08:15 AM
DMcG 30 Aug 15 - 08:12 AM
akenaton 30 Aug 15 - 06:49 AM
DMcG 30 Aug 15 - 05:07 AM
akenaton 30 Aug 15 - 04:48 AM
akenaton 29 Aug 15 - 05:20 AM
DMcG 29 Aug 15 - 04:58 AM
akenaton 29 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM
Stanron 29 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Dave 29 Aug 15 - 04:29 AM
DMcG 29 Aug 15 - 02:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Aug 15 - 08:23 PM
DMcG 28 Aug 15 - 05:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Aug 15 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 15 - 12:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Aug 15 - 12:15 PM
akenaton 28 Aug 15 - 10:50 AM
Spleen Cringe 28 Aug 15 - 10:39 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 15 - 07:26 AM
GUEST 28 Aug 15 - 07:20 AM
akenaton 28 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM
GUEST 28 Aug 15 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Aug 15 - 06:40 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:52 PM

Oops - yes, I got my dates wrong. It's next Thursday noon that's the deadline for voting. So all to play for.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:39 PM

McG, according to SKy this evening, about 260,000 have voted to date. And the ballot did not close today. There's another week to go. (Noon, Thursday 10 Sept.)


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:30 PM

With our system of voting, so splitting means electoral suicide. If there's a split, it'll be by the right, once again. But I think it's a lot more likely there'll be mass overnight conversions, and Umunna is getting in first with that.

But Jeremy had better watch his back. Which he will.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:17 PM

Jeremy will have to start as he means to finish. His only hope is to split the party, if he accommodates these people they will finish him.

They are the enemy.....in Westminster and even in Mudcat
This is no time for compromises, the public have started to listen and they want to hear the true word, not the Blairite doggerel.

METANOIA is what we need.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 05:56 PM

That would be OK in my book. All things are relative.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 05:46 PM

Voting deadline was noon today. So the voting is done. Now for the bargaining. I see Chuka Umunna has started making overtures to Corbyn, and there are suggestions he would be Shadow Chancellor in a Corbyn Shadow Cabinet. You couldn't make it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 05:00 PM

...or even used hiM (GK) as a role model...


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 05:00 PM

I think Irritable Duncan Smith used his as a role model ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 04:25 PM

Actually by "to the right" i meant in the party but on the right wing of it. English is funny language when it comes to stuff like that.

People always use Genghis Khan as an example of extreme rightwing. I'm not sure if that was particularly true. What distinguished him from the leaders of other nations of the time was his extreme ruthlessness. Wipe out a few sizeable cities entirely as an example of what happens if people don't surrender, and the idea is the others roll over, and it worked. Sort of Harry Truman style.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 08:56 AM

I gathered that, Kevin. Anyone to the right of the current Tory party would probably be akin to Genghis Khan!


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 08:23 AM

That should of course have been "left of the Tory party"


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 08:22 AM

Umunna is very close indeed to those on the right of the Tory party, including Cameron. (Umunna and Javid look and sound like clones of each other in what they say as well as how they look)

What would really be tye point? I suppose it can be said even though the lleaders of tye two parties are pooitically in similar places, the body of the party will pull the way it behaves towards the left or right.

But politics as just a game of the In party and the Out party changing places maybe it would be better to dispense with elections, and take turn and turn about. Democcracy was an interesting idea, but it never really worked out...


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 07:51 AM

The fact remains that the Tories breathed a bloody big sigh of relief when Umunna withdrew. In my view he would have been the only Labour leader who could have beaten the Tories in 2020. As it stands, Labour haven't got a cat in hell's chance. I suppose it depends on what we think matters most.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 07:35 AM

One intriguing fact is that Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair were first electef in 1983 - on the manifesto that's been attacked so often as hopelessly leftwing.

Here it is online A lot of the stuff in it that was so attacked now seems not at all controversial or extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 07:24 AM

There is a slightly convoluted argument on Andy Burnham's Web site which is worth struggling through. Essentially it points out that unless jeremy gets above 50% in the first round he is unlikely to win because he is most likely to be in last place or unlisted for the other candidates. Certainly it would be a slightly odd voter who put Liz in first place and jeremy in second
second.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 04:03 AM

Heard Umunna being interviewed this morning, he evaded every question on whether he would work with Jeremy, while pretending that the Party must close ranks...."to defeat the Tories"

He is a dangerous fifth columnist, a career politician who sees a Corbyn victory as ten years in the wilderness for him.

With a few subtle differences, he is the Blair of thirty years ago. Britian's Obama?.........dream on chuck!!
The other candidates are in the same mould disgusting self serving frauds......Scrub the lot and start over.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 03:53 AM

People are very easily manipulated Mr McGrath, there are probably very many more in the country who don't agree with Jeremy's ideas.

"Everyone has a little bit to lose" syndrome. Financial aspiration is a powerful tool of manipulation....although 1 in 10,000 make it most people, especially young people, believe that it just might be them.......soon money becomes the only goal, without it or the means to acquire it people are deemed worthless.

METANOIA.....I heard the word discussed on radio the other morning, it means complete and utter change, in thinking and practice, an intense change almost evangelical in nature, but not sectarian.
I wonder another if another JC has come along to implement it two millennia later?    :0)

I would be a disciple.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 07:02 PM

Has anybody here with a vote in this not voted yet, and still making up their mind? I rather doubt if there are many.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 08:40 AM

The biggest problem for Jeremy Corbyn, if he wins the leadership, isnt so much going to be the attacks he'll get from the Tories and the right-wing papers, it's going to be the hostility of Labour MPs and so forth.

There's a story about a new MP making his first visit to the chamber after being elected. He talks about the excitement he feels about facing "the enemy" opposite. A Veteran MP shakes his head ."They aren't the enemy. They are your adversaries. Your enemy here are the bastard behind you and all round you."

That's more true for Corbyn than for anyone. He's got plenty of friends out in the party, but in the House of Commons there are pretty few.kkk


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: oggie
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 08:17 AM

Corbyn is doing well because the basic slogan of the other three "We'll do austerity but a bit more nicely" has almost no appeal to anyone who is actually threatened by austerity which is a surprising number of us.

When I hear the appeal that we must not alienate the "middle ground" I look at where that middle ground is pitched and realise that not only is it far to the right of the the pre-Blair Labour Party, it is far to the right of the pre-Thatcher Tory Party and on some issues further to the right than she was.

Blaor and Blairism is held out by some as a shining example of what can be done. What his acolytes don't seem to get is that to many he was a crashing disappointment and his legacy isn't a proud one.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 08:12 AM

AN article by Owen Jones: My honest thoughts on the Corbyn campaign — and overcoming formidable obstacles

Another well written article by Owen. I especially liked this bit "A strong movement is a precondition for success. But it is no guarantee of it, by any stretch. If Corbyn wins, the challenges, as I say, will be enormous, but not insurmountable. I'm not writing this to dampen people's hopes, or to prepare excuses, but because people have to be ready and prepared. See those guns in the distance? Yeah, well we're running towards them. We have to be hopeful and optimistic, but also prepared for what awaits"

It is a long way to the next Parliamentary election, and whoever is elected has a hard path to follow. It's certainly possible that much of the enthusiasm generated for Corbyn evaporates as quickly as it arose. And that to be seems the biggest threat to his electability in 2020, not specifics.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 07:51 AM

He's wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 06:39 AM

Latest letter from John Prescott -

Hello comrade! (We can still say that can't we?)

I'm going to break the habit of a lifetime and be brief.

This leadership election is nearly over, and it looks like it's down to a choice between Jeremy Corbyn and Andy Burnham.

I was glad I encouraged MPs to nominate Jeremy to get him into this race because we really needed a debate on Labour's future.

And what a debate it's been! People are flocking to meetings, our number of members and supporters has tripled and there's a buzz about Labour again.

But now you need to decide who's the best person to lead us back to power in 2020.

And for me, that person is Andy Burnham.

From progressive renationalisation of our railways to integrating social care into our NHS, Andy has the ideas, experience and passion to unite this party and put our traditional values in a modern setting.

We need a leader who won't just lead protests ON Downing Street. Andy's the best candidate to march us back INTO Downing Street.

Because if we don't choose a leader who can win in 2020, we'll give the Tory's another five years of misrule to hit the poor and dismantle everything we achieved in Government.

So if you haven't yet, please vote for Andy today.

The future of our country and our party depends on it.

And you'll make me happy too!

Thank you and enjoy your bank holiday.

JP

PS: There's still lots more Andy and his team would like to do to help get out his vote this campaign. Please donate anything you can to help make that possible by clicking here.



Posted without comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:42 PM

Incidently, is it all right to change the thread title to "electing an Old Labour leader"?


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:28 PM

Umunna emerges tonight from beneath his stone to front a new anti Corbyn pressure group,

This career politician, who decided not to stand for leadership as it threatened to be a "poisoned chalice", obviously making the assumption that he could not win the next election and would hold his fire for another four years, has the effrontery to cast doubt on Jeremy's electability :0)
Blairite to the soles of his muddy boots......have no illusions these people are the real enemy of socialism. Don't be fooled again.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 11:57 AM

Nice one Mr M!


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 11:05 AM

One thing that people seem to be ignoring is that the result is probably already decided. Most people with votes have surely have voted. No real point in writing articles urging them to vote one way and another.

Of course, as Stalin pointed out, it's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes, and it appears that even after votes have been cast there will be the possibility of finding ways to cancel them. And it will be votes for Corbyn being cancelled.

But as a way of affecting the outcome of the election,Tony Blair latest hysterical contribution is pointless. Too late for his diatribe to sway undcided voters to back Corbyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:15 AM

Sorry, misunderstood.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:12 AM

Disengaged from Westminster-style Politics I should have said. Not disengaged from politics in its wider sense (eg 38degrees and similar)


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:49 AM

I don't think the electorate are "disengaged" over this issue D.
Labour are on a well deserved hiding no matter how the leadership election turns out......if it is perceived as a rigged election traditional labour voters will leave in droves to UKIP and the SNP.

Jeremy is elected Labour will lose one or two GE's, but socialist thinking will have been incorporated into our political system for the first time in fifty years.
The "Blairites" will desert and regroup as a "democratic" alternative, so will still be the main danger to socialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:07 AM

I was amused that Tony Blair wrote I read with care Rosie Fletcher's passionate piece in praise of Jeremy Corbyn in last week's Observer.

And then did not address any of the points she raised.

Don't get me wrong: I still think it possible, as I said somewhere else, that when it comes to the actual count Corbyn might not be there come 12 September. But if he is, I don't think the Tories will be anything like as pleased as they make out. They know exactly how to handle the other three, but Corbyn is much harder - if every Labour Bigwig calls him a dangerous leftie and he still gets elected, can the Tories be quite certain doing more of the same will work for them? Of course there is a difference between the 600,000 - of whom about one in ten has actually been to a Corbyn rally - and the often disengaged electorate as a whole, but how things will turn out is far from certain for anyone. And the Conservatives will have their own leadership battles to go through before 2020.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:48 AM

See Blair has weighed in again with the poison.
I hope Jeremy gets the leadership, so that at last people have a political choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 05:20 AM

"the basic right to be treated as a human being is fundamental to any civilised society"

Nobody could disagree with that Jim, but you go on to equate discrimination on grounds of skin colour or race, with discrimination on grounds of sexual behaviour.
There are many issues involving "discrimination" against various types of sexual practice which I am sure even you would agree with.
Complicated issue which require to be dealt with in an adult fashion, with all the facts, including associated health issues and effect on children taken into the equation.
As you already stated the latest "marriage" legislation was pushed through by media pressure with almost no political debate.

There is a new thread on Mudcat dealing with pressure to legalise Polygamy....would this come under your criteria for ""the basic right to be treated as a human being is fundamental to any civilised society"?


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:58 AM

Don't think I'd agree with Tebbitt on much, but he is right to point out that when it comes down to it there is a tension between fairness and equality, as there is between all the basic virtues: Fairness, equality, freedom, justice ...

It is easy to treat fairness and equality as more or less synonyms but clearly when you use both together like that, you are making a distinction between them. And when you do that the difference is where the tension comes from. If you push that difference in one direction you will increase fairness but decrease equality; push it the other way and you will decrease fairness but increase equality.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM

The focus groups were of people who had been Labour voters, but had not voted Labour in the last couple of elections.

That would indicate people of "Blairite" views and listening to their chatter, that was what they seemed to be, aspirational people, without many socialist values.

OK, socialism may not be popular with the voters, but the Labour Party was founded on these principles and if it is to continue as a "Blairite Liberal Democratic Party", what would be it's purpose?
We already have Two "liberal Democratic Parties in the Conservatives and the Liberals.
A party split would be the best thing, with Mr Corbyn advancing some socialist ideas in conjunction with other smaller Parties like the Greens and Nationalists.
There are huge changes in the pipeline over EU membership and National Sovereignty, we need a platform for a range of views to be aired.

Career politicians in the "Blairite" mould are being firmly rejected


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM

I saw that Newsnight program last night. It was a very small focus group of people who had in the past voted labour but didn't last time. Yvette Cooper seemed to come out best but it wasn't clear exactly what clips of each candidate had been shown. Interesting though.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:29 AM

Jim, its interesting how you state that fairness and equality is a basic human right, I agree with you but it reminds me of how I came to realise that the tories were not for me. It was about 1980, I was in Australia, I had gone in 1979, and Norman Tebbitt was on the radio. It was something the ABC had picked up from the BBC, maybe even Desert Island Discs. He was asked whether he still believed in fairness and equality, as he had in his youth (I forget the evidence for this). He answered that you could not have both. And I realised that the Conservative party which I had voted for, the party of Edward Heath (ok, forget the recent accusations), had turned into something quite, quite different. And something to be opposed at every turn.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 02:30 AM

I wouldn't disagree much, McGrath. My main quibble is that 'extremely rich' condition. I think even those with small incomes also need to pay their share. And we need to face up to that because people of average income and certainly below need to watch what they spend very carefully and it is very easily turned into a point of resentment by those who wish to manipulate things that a government is taking some of it to "waste" of things that don't directly benefit them. Very few people really object to taxation for things that they see the benefits of - the NHS of course, but also road maintenance, etc - so the manipulator always focus on things that don't so obviously benefit the employed worker. Hence the current demonisation of benefits.

I watched Newnight last night where they had two small focus groups of ex Labour voters commenting on each of the candidates as a prospective Prime Minister. It is sad but hardly unexpected that these groups knew so little about the election that they didn't even know the names of the candidates. However afterwards Danny Finkelstein (I?) argued fairly persuasively that the focus groups showed that Labour could not persue principle and electability at the same time at the moment but he thought it might be a good thing in the longer term for labour to clarify its principles at this stage. The MP wheeled on as a talking head head didn't really have much to say beyond making the obvious point that Corbyn has been wildly underestimated so far, so writing him off as a Prime Minister might be unwise.

What intrigues me about Corbyn is that he has no wish to be a leader, of the party or of government of the kind we have had in the past. Invariably we have aimed for strong leaders who decide (after so,e discussion certainly) and state a policy after which every MP is expected to behave as if they are 100% in accord with it, and have been all their lives. Corbyn is determinedly not that sort of leader and has a much more consensual approach. Whether that can be made to work is up for grabs, but the entire media, political classes and business world will be against trying it ...


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 08:23 PM

To me the idea that extremely rich people are better placed to spend their money individually than the rest of us would be collectively strikes me as absurd.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:05 PM

Nor is there, MCGrath: every government of every shade taxes and spends, and they also all promote enterprise. The difference between parties on these things is a matter of degree, not absolute.

However, as you say "tax and spend" is treated as great evil. This is because it is axiomatic in some quarters that the individual is better placed to spend their own money than government. In the extreme, that means persuing the lowest possible taxation and everyone buying what they need in terms of health provision, security services, perhaps even fire services via insurances, as happened in the far-enough past. And if everyone's income was sufficient to cover all their needs adequately, maybe that would make sense. But since it is not, the governemt - at least in the UK - provides some level of "socialism". The government decrees, for example, that schools and police services are provided whether people use them or not as a common good. Similarly roads are free or have tolls on the same thinking.

As far as taxation is concerned, it is the decision which services are a common good, or an individual's choice that decides "left" and "right". And more generally it is this split between common and individual interest that separates the sides. Though to repeat once more, all governments do both.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 01:24 PM

I never understand why "Tax and Spend" is proclaimed as if there was something wrong with it. Governments are sipposed to be about ensuring we have thie things we need, especially the things we can't buy as individuals. Money is needed to pay for that, and that comes primarily from taxation. (Borrowing is just putting off the taxation.)

Tax and spend is fine, so long as the spending is on stuff that's good for us to have, and the taxation falls on people who can afford it. And given those two conditions, the more of it the merrier.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 12:56 PM

"whatever gave you that idea"
the basic right to be treated as a human being is fundamental to any civilised society - that bigotry or political opportunism by politicians seeking election, deprive various groups - notably those of a 'different' colour or sexual orientation is an infringement of that right.
The fact that those human rights are being infringed is a political sign of the times - Mrs T. described mass-murderer, Augusto Pinochet as a great democrat - as the song nearly said "Thatcher ain't dead" - she is still very much among us in spirit.
"you care more for your popularity on this forum"
Hardly - the last thing anybody can accuse me of is playing to the crowd - both on politics and music.
A somewhat spiteful remark, I think
Pack it in Muskie - it would suit them to have this thread closed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 12:15 PM

So Police Scotland must think it OK.
You are wasting police time, which is an offence.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 10:50 AM

"Fairness and equality isn't an "ideology" - it is a basic human right.".....Oh?   whatever gave you that idea, I've lived seventy years and the longer I live the more unequal and unfair this society becomes

What happened to the financial system, how everyone was robbed in clear daylight, how we had to bail out the system, how the most vulnerable in society are being squeezed by austerity while the high earners get tax cuts.   :0) and it was all passed off with hardly a murmur, the system continues as before, but we did get "marriage for a tiny sexual minority who don't really want it.....well that's all right then!!

Call yourself a socialist, you are a pitiful fake....you care more for your popularity on this forum, than working for a sustainable society.
If you really gave a shit about homosexuals, you would be out campaigning for more testing and contact tracing among MSM, which is now being promoted by all health agencies.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 10:39 AM

"You can't change society you can only strive to make society work."

Err, doesn't mending something that's broken change it? From broken to mended at the very least.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:26 AM

"end of story."
Not quite - homosexuals are still subject to massive bias by society - anything that can be done to even things out is welcome, as far as I' concerned.
It is within my lifetime that homosexuality has moved from being illegal (one of Britain's great war heroes was chemically castrated and driven to commit suicide after having cracked the Enigma code), to now being legal - the next step is to make it acceptable.
"It looks like you agree with discrimination when it supports YOUR ideology"
No - I accept discrimination when it produces fairness.
You are a prime example of those who would oppose that fairness with your "gay plague" and "attacks on family life" accusations - evidence enough the dinosaurs still walk the earth.
Fairness and equality isn't an "ideology" - it is a basic human right.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:20 AM

Has someone here a cure for piles lol


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM

Jim, you are getting worse :0)
"Union status" - is positive discrimination to counteract bigotry such as that clearly displayed by you - homosexuals remain a persecuted group in Britain and elsewhere in Europe."....That is gobbled gook, the stupidest post in this thread and that's saying something.
We are talking about UK legislation, Civil union is on the statute book. Homosexuals have three legal choices regarding status, heterosexuals have two...end of story.

It looks like you agree with discrimination when it supports YOUR ideology?

Regarding my sexuality, you know no more about me in that respect, than I know about you....if I was crass enough I could suggest that your support for homosexuality points to doubts about your heterosexual status, but I do not have any real evidence of that. Your remarks are simply a cowardly and clumsy form of attempted intimidation.......I am never affected by such tactics.
Your remarks are insulting to me, my wife and family.

Try to confine yourself to the issues of who would make the best Labour leader and how we accomplish it. Keep the personal stuff out.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:44 AM

I do hope they keep up the in fighting, they got the message in May, they are a party of borrow spend and borrow. They created the immigration problem and the financial crisis.
Conservative rule suits me just fine, so allow them to get on with the job and long may the self destruction of Labour continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:40 AM

"Union status" - is positive discrimination to counteract bigotry such as that clearly displayed by you - homosexuals remain a persecuted group in Britain and elsewhere in Europe.
Their actual rights fall far below those of heterosexuals and there are daily examples of this being the case.
"Apologies may be accepted regarding your insulting comments."
I don't consider suggesting that those who are as vociferous as you are may well be suppressing latent homosexuality, "insulting" in the slightest and the fact that you do is further indication of your homophobia - in the unlikely event that further evidence was
needed.
Jim Carroll


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Mudcat time: 7 April 7:44 AM EDT

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