BS: electing a new labour leader

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:45 AM

As well as being evasive Jim you are also wrong. Homosexuals can choose between single, "married" or Union status.
Union status is not available to heterosexuals.

Apologies may be accepted regarding your insulting comments.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:21 AM

More rights..

This gets better.

Society hasn't split. Bigots have been outed, which is ironic given the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:18 AM

Try to stick to the points made Jim Humour does not become you and makes you look evasive.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:06 AM

"A huge wrong my arse"
Whoops - there's a Freudian slip! Always wondered about the real face behind the mask of homophobia.
"in fact they have MORE rights now than heterosexuals."
Utter nonsense.
"It certainly was not worth the time and effort, and it has caused society to split even further"
Not as far as you're concerned - you've always made your views perfectly clear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:02 AM

A huge wrong my arse, homosexuals had all the legal rights of heterosexuals under civil union, in fact they have MORE rights now than heterosexuals.
It was about redefinition, so that the word "marriage" was available to them.

It certainly was not worth the time and effort, and it has caused society to split even further ....If so called socialists would concentrate on the economic arguments and inspiring the youth of our country to see that we do not have to be rich to be "worthwhile", then we might make some political progress.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 07:57 PM

"You don't seem to have grasped the seriousness of the situation Jim, "
I've been aware of the seriousness of the situation for amny years, whuich is why I gave up voting for any of them.
"it is imperative that Jeremy is elected leader "
It might change things for the better, but at least it will make the Labour Party look to their Laurels.
"but a split in the Party will produce a platform for the promotion of a better way to run society."
The Labour Party has totally lost direction - Blair had the honesty to announe the total Toryising of what was onvce a working Party set up by the Trades Union Movement to make the world a better place for working people - it is now an enthusiastic part of everything that is bad in our society - what's to split
"has taken up a huge amount of time and energy"
Quite rightly, it was a massive step towards putting right a massive, built-in injustice in our society; now it is as dead as Capital Punishment, and all the other quaint traditions that were a part of British life.
"it affects a tiny fraction of 1% of the population,"
So what - do you count heads before you end human rights abuses?
Actually, virtually no time was spent - in parliament or on the media putting homophobia in its place - probably more time and money is spent regularly organising The X Factor.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:27 PM

Surely it's time for a "beer interlude"?

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:26 PM

"Personal rights - that's what we protect because it's what affects us most.
You have a strange, schizophrenic approach to politics I couldn't begin to understand.
Jim Carroll"

You don't seem to have grasped the seriousness of the situation Jim, as I said earlier, it is imperative that Jeremy is elected leader if we are not to waste the next twenty years.
He will of course not win the next GE, but a split in the Party will produce a platform for the promotion of a better way to run society.
At the moment there is no political alternative being presented to the electorate.

"That's what affects us most".....the legislation in favour of homosexual "marriage", has taken up a huge amount of time and energy
it affects a tiny fraction of 1% of the population, had that time and energy been directed towards educating the population about economic alternatives, perhaps Mr Corbyn would have an even chance in a general election.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Guest, Des
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 08:09 AM

Now the truth is out:

https://markfiddaman.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/6-links-jeremy-corbyn-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about/

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Musket
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 04:06 AM

It'd be interesting to see how many lasses pass the "ladies" test at Doncaster train station.

The journalist Bernard Levin once said that he didn't smoke but preferred to sit in the smoking section of aeroplanes as you met a better class of people. No substance to the claim but fun to read. Or journalism as its called.

Reading some of the hilarious bollocks above, it got me thinking. Liberal bankers are the cause of someone's failures. Liberal political parties run Scotland in a liberal way. Liberal dogshit fouls the pavement. Liberal trouble makers cause the police to react. Liberal magistrates prevent cruelty to dogs. Liberal Mudcat contributors piss themselves laughing at bigotry laced with confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 11:23 AM

I mean the compartments that ween't "Ladies Only" were open to anyone. The reverse of Smoker's Compartments, because when they had those, you didn't have to be a smoker to use them, just smoker tolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 10:46 AM

The only mission of many media commentators seems to be to fill the space or time alotted to them, and follow the preferences of their employers.

But my point was that the forty economists who wrote that letter weren't media commentstors, unless everyone who writes a letter to the papers is a media commentator. Or for that matter, any of us when we post on the Mudcat.

Women's carriages in the old days didn't mean men only carriages, but mixed carriages (or typically, mixed compartments), and the same would presumaly apply if they were revived. An excellent idea.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 10:29 AM

The Tories must be rubbing their hands in glee at the cock-up Labour are making of the leadership election. An eminent trade unionist has now been excluded and it looks like he will be joined by thousands of others. The executive seem to be saying if you don't agree with their current policies you are not allowed a vote. I hope it doesn't give the current (miss)administration any ideas...

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 05:35 AM

"but don't forget, it was the "liberalism" of the banking system which was a major cause of its failure."
Mre Alice in Wonderland Ake - words mean what I want them to mean.
You make as much nonsense of the English language as you do of left politics.
"Everything requires regulation including society"
It does, as does understanding why people act the way they do - the disfranchisement and alienation experienced by many people in today's society - young blacks stopped and searched for being black, the frustration of unemployed people who are treated like social pariahs.... writing them off as "stone-throwing thugs, doesn't hack it - more alienation.
We live in a society which is built on unbridled consumerism - why should we be surprised when people become part of it?
Violent confrontation is unproductive, but it's also two sided - I was part of the giant Grosvner Square demo, and watched as people threw banners at the police - then went and joined them when the formed barriers against demonstrators (provocateurs, planted in among the demonstrators)
I watched the footage of striking miners being baton charged by mounted policemen - beautifully represented by a miner's wife about to have her head laid open by a baton wielding thug on horseback.
You've expressed toyr contempt for Blair Peach, who was murdered by having his head rammed into the corner of a wall by two 'guardians of the law!!'.
You eally have to make up your mind which side you're on if you claim to be a "socialist" - so far you've made a point of throwing your stones at 'our side'.
Personal rights - that's what we protect because it's what affects us most.
You have a strange, schizophrenic approach to politics I couldn't begin to understand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 04:56 AM

You are of course correct in some of the statements you make Jim, but don't forget, it was the "liberalism" of the banking system which was a major cause of its failure.


Everything requires regulation including society. If police officers and even fire officers are attacked by stone throwing thugs who are bent of causing damage and mayhem (fire and stones kill too), then there will be casualties.
Police and firemen are just doing their jobs, and under a socialist system they will still be required to do their jobs......when a couple of EDL supporters get bashed, will you be whining or cheering?

To build a new and better society order must be maintained, my years in the CP told me that violent confrontation is counter productive and that all sections of society must be convinced socialism and a less wasteful way of life are imperative. Unbridled consumerism is double edged and we are just beginning to feel the steel.

Too much diversion into meaningless personal rights issues obscures the major battle, as well as weakening the ability of the people to stand against the things you point at in derision.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 02:53 AM

"I am not refusing to answer "
Yes you are - what is there to disagree with?
The financial markets around the world have just flushed a trillion's worth of the worlds money down the pan and put the the well-being of the people of a dozen nations in jeapordy and you "disagree" - disagree about what, exactly?
That is the system you are putting forward as preferable.
You appear to regard "people, health, education, benefits, housing" as liabilities to be payed for by "the State" (nuffin' to do wiv the taxes payed in out of hard-earned wages from workers pay-packets, of course, just the good old hard-done-by "State" - whoever that is!)
Yet on the other hand, you find the prospect of a dozen economic crises brought about by a bunch of gamblers playing with the world's money on The Stock Exchange unworthy of comment?
We are just recovering from a recession brought about by bankers on a spend-spend-spend spree, who rewarded themselves with massive bonuses for putting right the mess they got our countries into (their solution to their self-made messes - screw the lesser well-off - nothing new there).
We never got repaid for all the political corruption found to be indulged in by our politicians who were dipping into the nations purses for duck palaces and invented expense claims - not one head rolled in that fiasco.
Offshore accounts, secret Swiss bank accounts, placing companies in the spouse's name to avoid having to pay taxes...... all still common practice, untouched by the law - yet if a worker is found to have been paid undeclared cash for a job, he or she is prosecuted and labelled a parasite.
Or if a youngster fails to find work because there is none, he or she is packed off to a 'Boot Camp'
That is what Corbyn is suggesting needs changing, and doesn't it just make you and yours throw your toys out of your prams.
Time for Edward Gibbon to return and write a sequel - 'The Decline and Fall of the World Economies' maybe.
As usual - no answers, no case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 01:46 AM

So there are media commentators without a mission?

You must stop reading The Indescribablyboring. 😆

Meanwhile, Corbyn's clarifications on most of his earlier mouth without responsibility stances at least show him as s professional politician. Hope for the bugger yet.

I do like his idea of women only train carriages. The upshot being carriages with men only. I reckon we might be able to fit in a dartboard and have contests setting light to farts.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 01:45 AM

"incriminate yourself" what does that mean ? I am not refusing to answer , I disagree with you. So there is no point going. In circles , as you are sometimes wont to do.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 05:42 PM

HiLo, Greece has not been in any way a socialist country, they have been subjected to the rampant excesses of crony capitalism, thats why they have run out of money. Rich people not paying their taxes has been the problem. Syriza were not in power until January 2015, and even they, sans Varoufakis, can scarcely be described as socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:38 PM

The forty academic economists who made that link with IMF thinking and Corbyn's proposals in a letter to the media this week were not "media commentators with a mission". In fact that description is far more applicable to those writing columns and leaders portraying him as a man peddling crazy proposals.

The Labour manifesto made some timid statements in the direction of distancing it down from full blooded austerity, but it remained firmly attached to the principle of maintaining austerity based policies. And since the election there have been serious steps to go back on even those timid statements, especially by tgoe associated with Liz Kendall, which includes Chuka Umunna, Tristram Hjnt - and David Miliband.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:22 PM

Linking Corbyn to IMF thinking and alienating Osborn from the thinking requires a spot of cherry picking that only media commentators with a mission would employ.

Yes, the overall view that austerity isn't going to give us the recovery we need to address the issues is a valid view that IMF support but it isn't a Corbyn idea. It was Labour manifesto promise by Ed Balls for starters.

I happen to agree with it for what it's worth but IMF require growing economies to fund their own work so don't expect them to support Osborn austerity...,

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 02:58 PM

"What pays for socialism ?"
Full employment and an expansion based on genuine needs rather than profit can make any system self-supporting ("real investment" as Mac has just pointed out)- it certainly isn't happening with what we've got; we've just seen a trillion times worth of evidence as proof of that - I assume that you are refusing to respond to this on the grounds that it might incriminate you!
The next thing were quite likely to see is the predators that have dropped us in it will be paying themselves huge bonuses to dig us out of the klarts they've dropped us in - just like they did after the banking fiasco.
I don't suppose you'll respond to this o the same grounds as you've ignored everything else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 01:06 PM

Corbyn has specifically indicated that he values the kind of busines that actually involves real investment. That's not the same as buying up public utilities sold off the back of a lorry by a dodgy government selling it at mates' rates.

The word "capitalism" covers a wide range of ways of organising things. Some are quite compatible with a decent society. Some are toxic.

It's worth noting that Corbyn's suggestions about how the economy could be better run have been quite widely backed by a fair number of well regarded economists, and in fact are a lot more in line with current IMF thinking than George Osborne's. (Though IMF approval isn't necessarily an encomium, it does puncture the story being put around that Corbyn's proposals are so far out from the consensus that they can be dismissed as ridiculous without even being examined.)

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:55 PM

Those are the choices are they Jim ? What pays for socialism ? I believe in the state providing for people, health, education, benefits, housing. But I also believe that we must pay for it. Socialism does not seem to work, take Greece for example, they keep running out of other peoples money.
Wealth must be generated to run education, the NHS, benefits, pensions and so on. Don't you think ?

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:07 PM

"What is the alternative to Capitalism Jim."
Take your pick - you can have Capitalism, Socialism or fascism
Corbyn appears to offer a middle of the road approach to socialism - not world shattering but a move in the right direction
Generating wealth - for whom?
Thatcher kicked the idea of Britain being self-sufficient into touch when she closed down British industry and put us in the hands of bankers and speculators.
What's your solution to the one trillion dropped from yesterday's stock exchange, and the nearly two million unemployed in Britain - Carry on Camping?
I really would like to know
"Little Englander? Where the flying fuck did that come from"
From the "ex par bit - where the flying fuck do you7 think it came from?
What the flying fuck does it matter where I'm living - why bring it into this discussion? - rhetorical question - I know damn well why you brought it up, it's the favourite ploy of one of our friends whenever he finds himself in trouble.   
"You used to address what people write"
You too Muskie - where did I indicate derision?
I'd quite like to know that, as well.
Answers on a postcard please.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 11:40 AM

You used to address what people write, rather than what you want people to think they wrote.

Little Englander? Where the flying fuck did that come from? It's like me saying I like wine and you saying that beech makes a better hedge though.

Like I said. Again. You can't change society you can only strive to make society work.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 11:29 AM

What is the alternative to Capitalism Jim. I really would like to know. No matter what the system, governments need to generate money in order to pay for social programs. You can't do that by simple income tax, countries must generate wealth in many ways. They need financial credibility in order to do that. And to gain credibility you need investors, both large and small. So I am curious about what the alternative might be.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 09:09 AM

"Alternatively, be a whinging ex pat. "
Sigh - the same old, same old insulting to avoid the reality of the situation.
You're not the first one to use the Little Englander, "how dare you insult our Queen and Country, sir" to duck out of an argument.
Maybe a 'passport production' rule should be introduced to these threads.
Give us a break Muskie - you used to be better than that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 08:58 AM

interesting...then of course. the fifty dollar question - how would you change society.what changes would you make.

Everything is so different to how things were when I was younger - I don't feel qualified to talk any more.

we we were watching jeremy Kyle the other day. My wife said to me I didn't know any single mothers when we were teenagers. You got a girl in the club, you married her. simple as...

Education, law and order, the health service ...its all almost unrecognisable.

also a lot of these career choices open to us...they were pretty desperate. a complete waste of ones youth. I'm not suggesting all young folks should enrol at Paul Maccartney's college for wannabe superstars.

But maybe this laissez fire sysytem has gone a bit wild and crazy. And the next leader who's any good will actually have some solid ideas on how to improve things for the better for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 08:58 AM

interesting...then of course. the fifty dollar question - how would you change society.what changes would you make.

Everything is so different to how things were when I was younger - I don't feel qualified to talk any more.

we we were watching jeremy Kyle the other day. My wife said to me I didn't know any single mothers when we were teenagers. You got a girl in the club, you married her. simple as...

Education, law and order, the health service ...its all almost unrecognisable.

also a lot of these career choices open to us...they were pretty desperate. a complete waste of ones youth. I'm not suggesting all young folks should enrol at Paul Maccartney's college for wannabe superstars.

But maybe this laissez fire sysytem has gone a bit wild and crazy. And the next leader who's any good will actually have some solid ideas on how to improve things for the better for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 08:54 AM

Sigh

Alternatively, be a whinging ex pat.

You don't change society, you ensure society works.

You are in Ireland, I am in The UK. Yesterday, due to the Chinese government devaluing their currency, both our governments had less money to spend. Today, because the Chinese government cut interest rates, both governments have about 30% of it back.

One reason we wage our fists at politicians is that they are impotent. Westminster used to make decisions that had knock on throughout the world. Parish pump these days...

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 06:42 AM

"For that, you need to encourage, not deride those with the means to invest."
Don't you start repeating distortions Muskie - who is deriding anybody?
Encouraging those at the bottom of the heap to do waht exactly - go and work on their allotments (all gone now)
All you can "encourage" them to do is bend over and take what the present situation has to offer - only producing the opportunity to really change society can put a stop to that
|Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 06:28 AM

Not only hear it for them, but be able to do something about them. i.e. Have government income from a buoyant economy that can pay for a social system with a safety net, decent welfare and healthcare and encourage those who can to do and those who can't to not be at the bottom of a heap.

For that, you need to encourage, not deride those with the means to invest.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 06:16 AM

well said, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 05:55 AM

"There many people of modest means who invest small sums of money."
There are indeed, and they are suffering from the ongoing financial downturns that have become a part of our various economies - one trillion was wiped off the stock-market yesterday.
I have no "derision for these people - that't an invention of those with no argument for the support of the way things are.
These people include members of my family - especially those living in the North of England, which was cut adrift by Mad Maggie Mob - a deafening silence and no attempts to put right what she did - in fact New Labour embraced many of her values.
Just opening the newspaper this morning shows how things are - a large article on how London has become a place where only the well off can afford to live - the classic contradiction of our system wherever there's work, property prices soar beyond the reach of the people needed to fill the jobs.
I grew up in one of the biggest sink estates in Europe - just outside Liverpool - my sisters still live there I was lucky enough to be unattached and could move to follow the work - they couldn't, and remained in one of the unemployment blackspots of Britain.
Let's hear it for them and their situation - or are they people you "deride"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 04:12 AM

There many people of modest means who invest small sums of money. They would be very hard hit by a financial downturn. All ok am saying is that your derision of the called haves wears thin . And I do recognize that live in poverty and we do need to address that. But you can't make poor richer by blaming the people who invest. Capitalism is flawed. It I do not know what alternative is, it seems that any system designed by humans will be flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:41 AM

"So Jim , you think that pensIoners who have small investments in order to provide for themselves in later years are the "haves""
There really is more at stake than that at the present time.
"The poor pensioners" are always dragged out as an excuse for leaving things as they are - crocodile tears.
What about the poor pensioners on the breadline whose spending power is reducing because of corporate greed and bankers over-indulgence - or the people who have lost their homes because of being conned by the capitalist dream - or the near two million on the dole - or the workers who have lost security of employment under this shower of charlatans......
I suggest you look and the rapidly growing gap between the haves and the have nots in Britain today, and then come back and tell us this system is working for the good of us all.
Its not yet more tinkering with a worn-out engine that's needed, but a new car with a new driver travelling in a different direction altogether.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:25 AM

So Jim , you think that pensIoners who have small investments in order to provide for themselves in later years are the "haves" who won't ba affected ? yours is the politIcs of resentment and it ain't that pretty all.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:21 AM

For the last few years, savings have been stolen to pay for the destruction caused by the over use of credit.

Credit is always used as a tactic of last resort when a capitalist economy becomes unsustainable.
We must be made to understand that we have been conned. The advance of materialism in our society did not make it better, just made a few rich people richer and closed off the future to our children and grandchildren.
Scotland is full of empty houses used for one month a year by wealthy people who can afford to leave them empty for most of the year.
Buy to lets at huge rents, bought as investments unaffordable to local young people.
We have a housing problem, yet houses lie empty.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:11 AM

It appears from yesterdays news that a new world-wide financial crisis is on the horizon and you can put money on which section of the community will have to bend over and bear the brunt of it - certainly not those who can afford to invest.
The world needs new leaders with new ideas, not more re-arranging of the deckchairs to protect the haves.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:02 AM

Investing in shares?

Every pension policy (other than a few state owned ones such as NHS where payments to pensioners is via government coffers) is invested on your behalf in shares. Every penny in your building society passbook is invested in shares. Every penny the government can spend on social security, benefits, NHS, defence, education and state pension is dependent on market confidence in the national debt and competent fiscal management.

So... Who are these people who don't have a stake in the only fucking difference between us and a third world country relying on food parcels?

(Yes Kevin, I would preface my question to him with fucking, face to face. I didn't think lesson 101 in economics needed to be repeated in order to educate. Views are fine and valid, but to think only the top 0.01% are affected by destroying our standing, the only thing we have to offer the bloody world these days...) Our national credit rating is the rubicon that no chancellor of any persuasion has wished to cross.

What price Corbyn's ideas without the funds to put them into action? Take bonuses from anyone in the financial world? They'll pay for Birmingham Social Services for a day or maybe two if you let old people sit in their shit for a few hours. The rest of his ideas?

As I said. I like what he wishes to prioritise spending on to a degree but I see nothing concerning how to fund and maintain it.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:19 PM

What Corbyn has said about compensation when utilities are returned to a form of public ownership isn't as simple as " no compensation", though the media spins it as that.

What he has said is that where the price at which they were sold was significatly less than the price at which they should have been sold - as notoriously in the case of Royal Mail, and RBS - any price paid to buy them back should take that underpayment into account.

A more likely potential leader than Watson or Johnson might be Dan Jarvis. But it's only too possible that someone we've never heard of might emerge in a Corbyn led administration, which is committed to opening up the tiny closed circle of Labour party politics.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 04:06 PM

'watson?johnson?' i saw tom watson talking at maryport and wasn't particularly impressed in terms of his analysis and new labourishness. however, he does seem a decent sort and would probably be an efficient and conscientious organiser - so i voted for him on that basis, with jeremy corbyn to provide the direction and policies. (and hope!)

it may not be jeremy corbyn but maybe some of the more adaptable labour mps will be encouraged to let their more positive instincts lead them to do the job they were elected to do. from them we may find some newish talent emerging to give an invigorated labour movement real confidence to take on the tories.

alan johnson has not been interested in the job before and has made it clear that he doesn't like corbyn (or socialism). he is not the man to take the party forward.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 03:55 PM

Musket, I don't think Corbyn is talking about "poor buggers". He is talking about rich foreign parasites and city traders. "Poor buggers" don't have the level of savings to speculate on shares.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 02:09 PM

I think it's a good principle that, even in a discussion that has degenerated into an argument, we should never post in language that we wouldn't be ready to use when talking face to face with those with whom we are arguing.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:23 AM

You can see from your definition why he puts the word liberal in ""

In a democracy, we are all therefore liberals. If people vote for a system under the rules of the given election, you need a good firm challenging opposition, and Corbyn can do that.

Adopting his alternatives is a very different kettle of fish. His rash comments on using quantitive easing in a growing economy or single stroke nationalisation with no compensation for the poor buggers investing their savings precludes anyone being interested in him getting the keys to No.10 so until he settles down and realises the difference between apathy in today's politicians and support for his ideas, he is on a hiding to nothing.

I still think I would like him leading for two years whilst Labour find themselves again, but a real leader must come forward in that time. Watson? Johnson? Buggered if I know.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:05 AM

"Jim, it is not the "right" who are attempting to stop"
Yes it is Ake - they are trying to make him electable.
"I expect they would delighted to see him as Labour leader."
I very much doubt that - otherwise, why are right wing rags such as Murdoch's Times and the Daily Wail putting so much effort into making sure he is not?
What you appear to be suggesting is that left-wing policies will never be acceptable to the electorate - in which case, we may as well all piss off and sharpen our scythes, and leave the parliamentarians at it.
"The "Blairite liberals"
I do wish you would stop misusing the term 'Liberal' - it's the last thing you could possible accuse Blair and his acolytes of.
A bit of liberality would make the world a better place.
Definition of Liberal
"willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:18 AM

You change society by consent of society.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:09 AM

Jim, it is not the "right" who are attempting to stop Jeremy being elected, I expect they would delighted to see him as Labour leader.

It should be blindingly obvious who our enemies are....The "Blairite liberals".

I don't think that Jeremy can possibly win a general election, but it is imperative that he is returned as leader if we are to make a start on the job of changing society.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 05:34 AM

It seems that the right are rapidly stitching up Britain for themselves in the advent of a Corbyn victory
Whitehall officials are reviewing the practice of allowing the leader of the opposition access to secret intelligence "amid warnings of Jeremy Corbyn's controversial views on foreign policy".
Seems like a good reason why he should be leader of the Labour Party
Jim Carroll