BS: Problems at Calais. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 04:09 PM

"Can't speak for Seirra Leone"
.,,.

No, indeed you can't Jim.

But our academic colleagues could.

And did.

So why not just pay them the compliment of listening to them for a change, Jim, instead of knowing their own biznis better than they did becoz you lot over there know it all by nacher...

Oh, wotz da use!

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 04:06 PM

And crap like that (whether I agree with the poster or not) is one of the main reasons I fell out of the Mudcat habit. Why the fuck can't you lot debate a point without automatically slanging each other?

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 03:53 PM

"The Third Reich was also a model of efficiency"
.,,.,.

Oh, well! doesn't that just prove ···

a Godwin's Law
b that efficiency is detrimental to any entity - ???

Now why, I wonder, do I just occasionally feel that the poster of that effulgent observation might just not be the brightest button in the Mudcat box?!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 03:50 PM

" we found not one who didn't regret the British having left, and just wished there was some way to get us/them back"
Nice argument for never having lost the Empire Mike - Empire Loyalism - never doubted you for a minute!
Can't speak for Seirra Leone - but we are experiencing the results of the effects of Empire at present.
I'd have thought that, if nothing else, two W£orld Wars were a strong enough argument against Imperialism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 02:51 PM

Bubbly - I'm not absolutely certain (it's complicated), but I think your opinion is somewhat flawed. We have an opt-out. Which is not to say that we have opted out. I'm not clear on where we stand, and it probably depends on whether Labs or Tories hold power. We may not be "bound" but, I think, we are "party" to it.

After that, I simply don't recognise the country you are describing. Especially the last para. Our trains aren't especially slow (except that people are impatient to get everywhere faster), our roads aren't especially pot-holed (no more than they have been for the last 30 years), and so on. Above all, as I have already pointed out, we are NOT the destination of choice for most migrants (as I understand, anyway). And, a lot of the time, the migrants don't destroy their documents - the TRAFFICKERS do!

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 02:43 PM

The successors to European rule in sub-Saharan Africa have ruined the efficient states that should have been left behind

So the hell with self government. Haven't heard anyone resort to "The White Man's Burden" justification in a long time.

The Third Reich was also a model of efficiency.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 02:28 PM

Bullshit about "liberals." This liberal knew it was better to neuter Gaddafi and leave him in place. It was Dick Cheney who told Baby Bush he could outdo his father and remove Saddam in Iraq and bad advice that had Obama take out Gaddafi. Spread the wealth when it comes to bad advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 01:58 PM

"We owe these many of these people for the state we left their countries in after centuries of milking them dry."
,..,.,
My late wife & I worked in the University of Sierra Leone in Freetown for a while, 1991-92 I think it was. Speaking quietly, 1 to 1, with SL-ean university colleagues, we found not one who didn't regret the British having left, and just wished there was some way to get us/them back -- no doubt, to hear good ole Jim tell it, so that we could 'milk them' a bit drier. The successors to European rule in sub-Saharan Africa have ruined the efficient states that should have been left behind, and its nothing but doctrinaire parti-pris to claim otherwise.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 01:29 PM

In Libya, we were supposed to be freeing them from a tyrant.
We were trying to make their country A democratic egalitarian paradise
You "liberals" couldn't wait to be rid of Gaddafi, Assad etc.

See what you've got now? Head chopping maniacs, obscene violence, societies in ruins. It's the ISIS Show and it will be opening here shortly.

"liberals" are not just a danger to socialism, they are a threat to the whole world.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 01:13 PM

"it certainly is a big ask"
Lots and lots of post colonialist patronising going on here - big ask - my arse.
These people are asking support from countries that are largely responsible for what has made them refugees - the very first "favour" that needs to be granted if that the democratic (sic) West should stop arming and supporting the animals that are creating these tragedies - very far from being even discussed, let alone granted.
We owe these many of these people for the state we left their countries in after centuries of milking them dry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 11:14 AM

I would not suggest it is an easy thing, it certainly is a big ask. But unless the "western world" addresses the various issues in a positive manner migration will continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 11:08 AM

In what they seek they are no different to the rest of us, a decent living, a decent home, a standard of freedom.
Is it really asking too much.

There are literally billions of people in Africa and Asia who do not have those things.
Finding a way to provide them is actually a very big ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 10:49 AM

I would think that migration has become more widespread because of a greater access to information.

A hundred years ago many people living in the Middle East or Africa may not have even heard of France, Germany or England.

They may have had an aspiration to have a better life but the knowledge that one was possible elsewhere was not available.

In what they seek they are no different to the rest of us, a decent living, a decent home, a standard of freedom.

Is it really asking too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 10:33 AM

If all that was done, the "probelms at Calais" would not go away.

More to the point, YOU wouldn't go away, either. What do "The Historians" say about this issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 10:27 AM

My understanding is that Great Britain is OUTSIDE the Schengen Agreement zone, and therefore is not bound by its terms in any way shape or form.Furthermore, I understand that most if not all immigrants DESTROY all their identity documents, passports,etc, in order to enhance and reinforce their refugee status.This is most unhelpful.

Additionally, Britain enjoys a reputation for being a "promised land" of milk & honey , where EVERYONE is fabulously wealthy and lives an unimaginably easy and carefree existence.Of course,nothing could be further from the truth, but still one cannot disabuse most foreigners of their beliefs in this regard. I was, about 4 years ago , living in Henley-On-Thames ; I was being pursued for money owed to my bank (about 8K ) and was 'phoned by a foreign-sounding lady from a debt-collection agency.I told her that I didn't possess eight HUNDRED pounds,let alone 8 THOUSAND, but she REFUSED to believe me, BECAUSE I LIVED IN HENLEY !! ( and I therefore had a big car,a boat,servants,private 'plane, etc, ad nauseam ).

In any case, this is a small, overcrowded country with a crumbling infrastructure ,slow trains,pothole-infested roads etc , that cannot realistically bear the additional burden of unrestricted immigration by people who cannot even IDENTIFY themselves ; sorry, but that's the sad truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST, ^*^
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 10:11 AM

Unsafe travel and shelter for refugees is a problem in a lot of places right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 09:17 AM

"I agree, but it is not an issue here, except from the troll"
It has been an issue from the start - the people who have made this unbeliveably dangerous journey have been regarded as 'a problem' and nothing else - by the press, by the border officials and by inhuman rat-bags like Cameron.
Ironically, the only nation to have shown true, practical sympathy for them and their plight is Germany - it is the Merkin Mob who have insisted that they are in trouble and need practical help.
Meanwhile - back at the ranch, the Cameron Crew continue selling weapons to dictators and even give military assistance to monsters like Assad - who is driving out Syrian people in their thousands.
It is very much an issue
Why has there always been poverty?
That's part of our legacy to our ex-colonies, which continues with our buying our cheap shirts and shoes from companies which are supplied from countries paying slave wages in lethal places of work.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 08:45 AM

Dave's suggestion in regarding those affected by those people effected would be a bloody-good start - doesn't seem to have occurred to some people

I agree, but it is not an issue here, except from the troll.

Why the problem?
It is part of the wider migration crisis.
Why that?
Poverty, but there has always been poverty.
War, but that is not new either.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 07:52 AM

It's not a problem confined to Calais - it's a problem to do with what's happening in the world today.
Dave's suggestion in regarding those affected by those people effected would be a bloody-good start - doesn't seem to have occurred to some people.
I see from this morning's paper that that nice Tory Blair is being questioned on why he made secret attempts to protect that equally nice Mr Qdaffi when Libya was under attack - it has already been established that Britain was training that even nicer son of the nice Mr Qdaffi to take over where his father left off.
While Britain supports dictators and continues to sell them arms to suppress their people, the flow of refugees will continue - night always follows day.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 07:20 AM

The opening question asks why there were problems at Calais.

Problems at Calais. Why?

Not what to do to make it go away. I answered that opening question with a suggestion as to what I believe to be a (note: not 'the') problem. I don't know what to do to make it go away any more than I know what to do to make anyone on here go away. Other than have a few pints of real ale of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 07:09 AM

If all that was done, the "probelms at Calais" would not go away.
You did not, "address the opening question."
Of course migrants should not be "demonised."
Who but trolls have done so here?

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 06:53 AM

To address the opening question I would say that a big problem is the demonisation of migrants by the press, politicians and, sadly, some of the people on here. Take away the word 'migrant', substitute it with human being and re-read the news stories to fully understand the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 03:33 PM

Can't spell 'Britannia' either.
FAIL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 12:28 PM

"For a country who sings: Britania rule the seas..."
Waves - rhymes with "Slaves".
As you say, bit pathetic, as Pagliacci sings - he was a clown as well.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 12:21 PM

Given the generally very high standards of trolling on Mudcat, that last attempt by 'Guest' was pathetic in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 12:07 PM

Why don't the Brits have a BIG ship? ? ?

Something like an aircraft carrier? ? ?

For a country who sings:

Rule...Britania...
Britania rule the seas...

"Rather pathetic" ....as Alfred Hitchcock used to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 11:55 AM

Just remove ourselves from the EU.
The fact that we have been instrumental in destabilising the Middle East and North Africa cannot be ignored though and persecuted refugees are in a large part OUR problem.
If we control OUR borders, then we can at least make a decision on the validity of asylum claims

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 11:12 AM

Ake - the arduous & expensive part of the illegal immigration process is breaking the Schengen borders. You read but, seemingly, you don't read quite enough. Or you don't comprehend what you read.

"As Raedwulf has sais they seem to have enough money to travel, the real persecuted people are those still sitting in Syria and other countries that we have helped to de-stabilise." Not what I said at all. I said many of them are economic migrants. That doesn't mean they've got any money! It means they'll go to desperate lengths to come to Europe to do ANYTHING they can because they will (or, more to the point, the BELIEVE they will) be able to make a far better living than in their own countries. Including borrowing & mortgaging everything that their (extended) family has.

As far as I can tell, from strictly anecdotal evidence, they will (usually) work endless hours for little money & send home every penny they don't have to spend keeping together body & soul. Rather more laudable than all our alleged social security scroungers, no?

The key thing is to get inside the EU borders. After that, you can pick & choose, because there's barely a check on your documents. The target isn't "immigrate to Britain / Sweden / Wherever. It's "get inside Schengen; now I can travel more freely." In one sense, the traditional asylum law ("apply to the first safe country you come to") is being made a mockery. In another, it's simply a bad law in the modern world; one that badly needs updating...

And how do you tell an economic migrant from a genuine persecuted refugee? Fucked if I know...

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:47 AM

Yes Rag.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:41 AM

I think the Professor is referring to HMS Bulwark

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:28 AM

Italian and Irish ships (but oddly I haven't heard of any British?)

The biggest ship in the RN has been operating in the Med. and has rescued thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:02 AM

".winter holidays in the Netherland will not happen."
What a shame - holidays being spoiled by all those freeloaders drowning themselves to feed their families - it's a disgrace!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 02:31 AM

Yeah that's me Raedwulf.

Out of interest, and used in any threads where medical issues come up (two people on here like to distort certain medical statistics to vilify section of society) the other two Muskets are actually doctors although McMusket is of the academia type rather than face patients these days. It's my later in life interfering in healthcare that got us all recognising each other at folk clubs.

I'm thick as pigshit and proud, if that's a credibility test around here. Never went to 'uni as such and only got off my arse in my late '30s to research the testical side of my industry to a doctoral thesis, the entry having been my dissertation to charter as an engineer.

You see, you are as guilty as any of the actually nasty ones in that respect. Dragging up irrelevant aspects of people that you glean from elsewhere. There are many people on Mudcat who can give an informed perspective to any debate but to do so give their credentials.

Not easy when ignorance is put forward as a virtue and the shoulder chip lightly fried and sprinkled with salt and vinegar.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 02:20 AM

Some posters are conflating the refugees coming across the Mediterranean with the people at Calais.

In the Mediterranean, the people being rescued by Italian and Irish ships (but oddly I haven't heard of any British?) are mostly from Syria and Libya, with some from Somalia and other African countries. They're almost all people fleeing wars, mostly the wars currently being caused by IS/ISIS/Daish.

In Calais, the people trying to get to Britain are mostly 'economic migrants' - which is to say people looking for work. As I understand it, it's easier to find work in Britain than elsewhere in Europe, perhaps because the black economy is less regulated there.

I can't understand the rage and contempt for people seeking work, but perhaps a lot of English people read the newspapers that are whipping up hatred against foreigners.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 02:07 AM

Any ordinary international traveller (i.e. Who isn't extremely wealthy) with at least two working brain-cells buys travel insurance, either trip-by-trip or whole-year basis. If you can't afford travel insurance, I'd seriously question whether you can afford the travel. You certainly can't afford the risks.

I was talking to someone only yesterday, whose son died suddenly in Spain. It cost GBP 15,000 to have his body repatriated to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 10:28 PM

3,000 rescued by the Italian navy this past weekend.

I believe the attraction of England is the Sgengen agreement...It is certainly hobbleing me. After summer break....winter holidays in the Netherland will not happen.

As noted on a travel advisory:

Anyone travelling temporarily to a Schengen area from a country that is subject to visa requirements, be it an individual or group visitors, tourists, or business travelers is required to purchase travel insurance that covers the number of days he/she will be spending in the Schengen Area.
The insurance must be valid throughout the territory of the Member States and cover the entire period of the person's intended stay or transit. The minimum coverage must be EUR 30,000!

t may be

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 02:38 PM

"British army should be sent over to hose them, drench the bastards with paint or ink"
Great idea - why not Just shoot one in ten of them; that'd soon put a stop too their "freeloading"!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:56 AM

British army should be sent over to hose them, drench the bastards with paint or ink, why are the French allowing them to camp there ? A load of free loaders looking into the UK and seeing us as a soft touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 09:57 AM

Musket (presuming this is actually Ian Mather that I'm replying to)- there's nothing odd regarding what I said about you. I've read too many of your fucking posts. You regularly sneer, smear, and ad hominem. You're supposed to have a brain. Or you like to remind us you're a doctor of some description with a degree or three, which is presumably the same thing.

I may well be a prat, but with occasional exceptions (you being one), I try to get my point across rather than resorting to your methods. If I treat you with contempt, it's because you usually behave contemptibly. Along with one or two other posters here. Unlike them, you could make your points. But you prefer to make a bigger prat of yourself than I ever have.

As I pointed out in the thread that was recently closed, are people here to get their point across, or simply to listen to themselves? All too often, you sound to me like the latter. I suspect it isn't only me that thinks that.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 07:29 AM

Calais is the place we know about because it affects us. There are many places where the human tragedy of regimes have a catastrophic effect.

I wanted to take Mrs Musket to Kos next month, being where I popped the question as it were, ten years ago. The truly horrendous and sad situation there, the human tragedy that many on here, together with their soul mates in The Tory party think are chancers trying to get a better deal in life rather than fleeing poverty, war and victimisation is too harrowing for such a romantic plan.

Taking her to Cyprus and hoping she doesn't notice the difference. (Of course she will. Many doctors make a bit of a pilgrimage to Kos, the home of Hippocrates. That's really why we were there in the first place.)

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 05:17 AM

Nice reference with facts Backwoodsman.
Thank You.


A quick three minute visual of the situation.

Calais Chaos

It certainly resembles the Tiajuana border with Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 04:20 AM

I think the problem is determining if they are actually refugees.

As Raedwulf has sais they seem to have enough money to travel, the real persecuted people are those still sitting in Syria and other countries that we have helped to de-stabilise.

The alternative I suppose is to just open the doors to everyone, as we have been forced to do within Europe, due to our membership of the EU.

Italy and Greece cannot cope with more refugees, but we already have 250,000 economic migrants per year, coming from Eastern Europe, so an open door policy on all entrants would be catastrophic.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 03:49 AM

and most of them do stay in mainland Europe, we're hardly taking our fair share of all those who flee to Europe.


Or do you think they should all stay in Italy and Greece where they land? After all those two countries are easily able to cope aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 03:42 AM

Oh well, if The BBC managed to find people stating the obvious...

Luckily, most people are intelligent enough to factor in such interviews rand take such comments in context rather than pounce on them to feed their own shallow bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 06:04 PM

Well Kampervan, if it was simply safety they were looking for, why continue on the arduous journey to the UK? I'm sure they would be just as safe anywhere in continental Europe.

Some of the people were interviewed for BBC tv they said quite openly that it was for a better lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 04:18 PM

Akenaton - how do you personally work out exactly how many are fleeing persecution and which ones just see it as a step up the wealth ladder?

To me, most of them look pretty desperate,and I certainly wouldn't set myself up as being capable of differentiating.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 02:42 PM

Get with the programme Keith, air is the next thing to be privatised. We will be charged by the breath. Its going to be hard to work our where it comes from, so the charge will be levied where it is used. No breathing if you are behind with your bills.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 12:38 PM

"There don't seem to be many who are fleeing from persecution."

Beggars belief. Just when you thought it couldn't sink any lower, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 10:53 AM

yes that's what I meant when I questioned Raedwulf, we simply don't have much space or infrastructure to cope with unregulated EU economic migrants.

Regarding refugees, there don't seem to be many who are fleeing from persecution, so why are they coming here rather than staying in continental Europe.....better job prospects higher benefits?

Our interventions in the Middle East and North Africa in support of "freedom and democracy" caused much of the mayhem, so I suppose we are obliged to pick up the pieces.

Firstly I would hang the whole Labour war cabinet....THEN I would hang, draw and quarter Mr Hague and Mr Cameron

The fate of Mrs HtH Clinton must be decided by the American people.
Maybe they will elect her President?

Subject: RE: BS: Problems at Calais. Why?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 15 - 10:30 AM

That would not work Greg.
All countries have equal access to all the world's air.
Drinking water is an issue in some places. England's SE for instance.