Passive agressive songs

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 08:19 PM

I agree with you, McGrath of Harlow. I've never heard the term 'passive-assertive' before, but I kind of like it. I've always liked the idea, with any emotion, of recognizing the choice that of regulating the intensity of the emotion by acting 'opposite' to what it urges us to do. And it's still authentic....because I'm not 'pretending' I don't feel that way. I think it's great, when we're angry at somebody, to decide to do something particularly kind to the person we're anger at.   I find it really 'evens' the anger and puts it into perspective.   

But if the person I was angry at asked me if I were angry about what he/she did.....or if there seemed to be a sensitive time to express it.......I'd certainly acknowledge it.

So..........I'm wondering if there are any good 'passive-assertive' songs out there!

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 04:21 PM

I rather like the label passive-assertive. It doesn't carry the same pejorative assumptions as passive-aggressive. I feel it's a pretty good way to act in many situuations.

Mind, the whole assertive/aggressive differentiation has its problems. I've often come across people who would say they are assertive who strike me as extremely aggressive. Particularly when it is underpinned by the assumption that if you feel angry it is a kind of duty to act angry, otherwise it's inauthentic.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 10:38 AM

Johnny McEvoy has written a few good examples of such songs. Hank Williams Snr too specialised in these ytpe, You Win Again is my favourite

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 09:04 PM

Non violence certainly isn't passive-aggressive. There's absolutely nothing aggressive, is there?   Some might argue it's passive.....but 'passive' has it's place. The ideal is 'assertive'......where we state our position while respecting our own needs and the other person's.

Hmmm. if it were a woman walking out of the relationship? Probably the same. It's true that when we call it 'passive-aggressive', we are making some assumptions about the person who is leaving the relationship.......and it may not be passive-aggressive. Maybe he (or, in the 'adjusted' version, she) really doesn't mind that "you could have done better". I suspect he does mind.....after all...."you just sorted wasted my precious time".

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 06:58 PM

How would Don't Think Twice work with a couple of words adjusted, and sung as by a woman walking out of a relationship that had gone wrong for the same kind of reasons?

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 05:58 PM

Is nonviolence counted as passive aggressive? If not, why not? It involves letting someone know they have hurt you, refusing to get angry, and trying to use that to change their behaviour.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: meself
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 05:18 PM

Wait a minute - you didn't think the Don't Think Twice guy is actually saying all that to her, did you? All he's saying is 'Yes, dear', 'No, dear' - all this other stuff is what he'd like to say ....

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 04:27 PM

Good point, Mcgrath of Harlow. Maybe a better word would be to 'acknowledge' it.   I think calling it (at least internally) what it is can keep us from self-blame, guilt, recriminations, etc.   Passive-aggressive people are great at doing that. That woman in "Don't THink Twice" who "could have done better but I don't mind".   It probably wasn't her stuff at all.......just because she decided not to be a 'servant' to this needy guy.   But......the song is so artfully written (effective passive-aggressive behaviour is almost an art) that she could be prone to feeling guilty for not meeting all his needs.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 01:11 PM

Why the assumption that there is a duty to 'confront' hostile behaviour anyway?

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 01:07 PM

But what if you actually are controlling your temper, and the other person isn't? They do have a problem.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 04:28 AM

I don't see where you get that, Richard. Passive-Aggressive behaviour, even according to the wikipedia article, is indirect expression of hostility. It's NOT controlling one's anger. It's letting it out but in a way that's dishonest, and makes it hard to 'confront' the hostile behaviour.   "Who me? I'm not angry. You must have a problem".   That type of response.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 02:02 AM

The Wikipedia article illustrates some of the problems with the concept of "passive aggressive". For example it appears to state that controlling one's anger is "passive aggressive" - yet controlling one's anger is something that any civilisation would require, and teaching children that the tantrums so typical of "the terrible twos" are antisocial is an important part of child-raising.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 02:02 AM

The Wikipedia article illustrates some of the problems with the concept of "passive aggressive". For example it appears to state that controlling one's anger is "passive aggressive" - yet controlling one's anger is something that any civilisation would require, and teaching children that the tantrums so typical of "the terrible twos" are antisocial is an important part of child-raising.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 02:02 AM

The Wikipedia article illustrates some of the problems with the concept of "passive aggressive". For example it appears to state that controlling one's anger is "passive aggressive" - yet controlling one's anger is something that any civilisation would require, and teaching children that the tantrums so typical of "the terrible twos" are antisocial is an important part of child-raising.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 02:02 AM

The Wikipedia article illustrates some of the problems with the concept of "passive aggressive". For example it appears to state that controlling one's anger is "passive aggressive" - yet controlling one's anger is something that any civilisation would require, and teaching children that the tantrums so typical of "the terrible twos" are antisocial is an important part of child-raising.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 10:42 AM

The Wife of the Bauld Tenant Farmer is a fine example of p/a (my opinion anyways).

@displaysong.cfm?SongID=9389

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 10:19 PM

Wikipedia has an article: Passive-aggressive behavior.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 01:20 PM

With "don't think twice" we know he's angry, and bitter, and giving up on hoping for a reconciliation, and pretending to himself he's coping better than he is. We're hearing his version, and a different song could be written from her point of view. It's not our job to judge, we're observers, drawing on our own life experience which affects what we see.

A much more complicated song than it seems.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:59 PM

True, McGrath. The first one is a closed question----the 2nd is an open one that invites discussion.   I like your suggestion of asking, (maybe still using 'passive-aggressive' behaviour as the guideline), what does this song tell us about the people involved?

That Tom Paxton song I posted, for instance.   Others feel a lot more empathy for the father than I do, while my empathy is totally directed toward the son. I have always had a very judgmental attitude toward the narrator of the song...probably related to my own experiences and my own 'abandonment' issues. There's no question that our judgments say more about us than they do about the people they are judging.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:40 PM

It just strikes me as a very judgemental label that often seems to be applied to patterns of behaviour that can be quite appropriate. It's prescriptive, not descriptive. The question "is this song passive aggressive?" Isn't like "what does this song tell us about the people involved", it's more like "is this song racist?"

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:11 PM

Interesting take on "Don't Think Twice", and also about Good Year For the Roses.

"And from the bedroom those familiar sounds
Of our one baby's cryin' goes unheard"

I don't think he's taking out his anger or aggression towards her by refusing to tend to their baby (or in another line, make the bed). I just don't think he sees them as his 'job'.   Weird, I know.   Could be passive-aggressive if he's doing this to get back at her.


I didn't understand where You Picked a Fine Time to Leave Me Lucille was passive-aggression. Sarcasm yes.   Maybe the narrator's refusal to have an affair with her might be.......because he is judging what she is done.   Is that what you meant, Mayomick? (Maybe my ignoring your suggestion the first time could be interpreted as 'passive-aggressive......even though that wasn't my intention).

As for the guilt trip you were illustrating-----I'd call it 'whining'. Nothing passive about it.

Like any label,McGrath, people can use it in an accusatory and distorted manner....as a way of justifying their own cruelty by totally discounting somebody else's feelings. Absolutely.

But masters of passive-aggression end up having a lot of power, and you can't nail them on it because of the 'self-righteousness' and declarations of innocence that go with it.

I'd also be interested in finding some really good 'passive-aggressive' songs.....and have it as a topic for one or my "Musical Therapy" radio programs. So far....all I have is "DOn't Think Twice", Glasgow Lullaby (a good one), possiby "Good Year for the Roses" or "These Boots Are Made For Walkin" (she hasn't really taken any specific action or inaction yet), .... And in Long Before Your Time by Johnny McEvoy, he's setting up his daughter for future passive-aggressive behaviour, but I don't know if he's doing it yet.

On a similar vein to Long Before Your Time is "When I GO To See My Son" by Tom Paxton. I feel anger towards this father who is taking out his 'loss' on his on by making no connection with him.   What do you think, Andrew Murphy? Is it passive-aggressive.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/tompaxton/whenigotoseemyson.html

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Andrew Murphy
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:07 PM

Some good examples here. I dont think it matters what the exact definition of passive agressive is, as it is a bit of a vague term and means different things to different people but its interesting to see what songs people feel fall under the catagory.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 08:32 AM

Bob Dylan's snarled-out lyrics are examples of verbal, in-your-face, active aggression.He is a victim of passive aggression in the song and genuinely doesn't mind any longer because he's getting out. Passive aggression is hypocritical.
By the way ,I have noticed everybody ignored my example of You took a fine Time To Leave Me Lucille in my last post . But never mind,I'm getting used to people not taking notice of anything I say around here after all the hard work I put in .Just take your shoes off when you walk all over me in future please , if that's not too much trouble - I really wouldn't like to put you to any effort.Now I'm going to make myself that cup of tea SOMEBODY promised to make me but didn't . Maybe someday when I'm not around you'll appreciate me .
The guilt-tripping Good Year For the Roses is another example .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m9BObgOcng

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 06:03 AM

I still feel suspicious of the term. The implication seems to be that if someone refuses to react in an angry way, for example to an insult, that is in itself insincere, and deserves to be criticised. The assumption is that there is a duty to be open about our feelings in all circumstances.

Different countries and societies, different assumptions. And maybe we are prone to assume the way it is with our culture is normative everywhere.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:33 AM

Joe You are a WONDER! ! !

The links are precisely the way I should have presented the thread.

Thank You. WELL DONE

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

That opening bit about MAX was obviously in jest as an example of the thread's theme.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 02:33 AM

pay us no mind by the Staves

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:52 AM

"Say that B is a bully - big, loud, self-righteous. Say also that B has done something bad to V, his (or her) usual victim. V is afraid to protest, but his distress shows in his body language, etc. B knows he's been a jerk, but doesn't want to admit it. He observes V's behavior, and it irritates him. So he sneers at V for being passive-aggressive. Therefore, it's all V's fault once again"

Leenia, I don't think V is being passive-aggressive. There's nothing aggressive about the body language of 'distress'.

Now......if V ended up silently changing B's song titles into links....that might be a different story.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:34 AM

Most of those type of songs should be classified as "maudlin."

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 10:59 PM

Hmmmm....Well, Joe, I guess if you were changing them all to links just to *show* him that that's the way it's supposed to be done and to demonstrate how bad he is----but pretending that this is just your job......yeh that could be passive-aggressive.   On the other hand, if you're truly being the good guy I suspect you are and you just want others to be able to understand better..........nothing aggressive about that.

So the question is......."is it alright"....whether you think once or twice?

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 10:12 PM

So, if I silently change all the song titles into links, is that being passive-aggressive toward Gargoyle?

Gargoyle and I are old friends, so don't think twice, it's all right. Isn't it Garg?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 09:41 PM

Way to go, Larry. That makes two of us.

And how about when he sings, "Good-bye is much too a good a word, babe. So I'll just say Fare Thee Well."

It makes no actual sense, but the insult is clear.
========
However, I want to point out that a label like 'passive-aggressive' can be abused. Say that B is a bully - big, loud, self-righteous. Say also that B has done something bad to V, his (or her) usual victim. V is afraid to protest, but his distress shows in his body language, etc.

B knows he's been a jerk, but doesn't want to admit it. He observes V's behavior, and it irritates him. So he sneers at V for being passive-aggressive. Therefore, it's all V's fault once again.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:58 PM

Joe's example isn't a bad one at all.....his father being 'passive-aggressive'. It's getting back at someone by non-action rather than action.   It entails not acknowledging that you are upset with somebody or that you are reacting to a situation.........but you are!   Like 'accidentally' forgetting an appointment with somebody who previously stood you up.   

I think that "Don't Think Twice" is a great example of it. ("You could of done better, but I don't mind").

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:55 PM

"I've never quite understood the meaning of passive aggressive." I think it involves insincerity: if Zimmy really didn't mind, he wouldn't even be bothering to sing "You coulda done better."

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:47 PM

Passive-aggressive...I grew up with parents like that. My mother was always angry, and I don't know why. My dad, on the other hand, was sweet and saintly and kind. It drove her crazy.

It was the most effective way he could deal with her. Sometings, he laid it on so thick that he passed over to the Dark Side himself. He was no dummy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:40 PM

I don't know that song, but I couldn't see how that verse was accusatory in itself in any way.

Context can change things like that, so I searched out the lyrics, and I'd take it not as being a love song, as that term is normally used, but as a song by a father to his daughter about her desd mother, and nothing accusatory or "passive aggressive" in it.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Andrew Murphy
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 03:54 PM

I guess ot overtly aggressive but still undermiining someone. Sorry guest here is the Johnny McEvoy bit from long long before youre time.

One lovely year was all we had
Until the sickness came
And stole the roses from her cheeks
My tears they fell like rain
For nine long months she carried you
But in the end she died
She chose to go so you might live long
Long before your time

Overtly the song is a love song but there is this accusatory verse in there.

Glasgow lullaby is also Eric Bogle's: "Hush, now, babbie, yer daddie's comin' in".

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 01:39 PM

I've never quite understood the meaning of passive aggressive. It seems to be used to mean saying something to someone that they find annoying, as if there's necessarily simething wrong with that.

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 01:16 PM

I guess Max is behind paying his bills

This did not register below your posting.

Mr. Murphy...I am not familiar with "Long Before Your Time"

It helps when starting a discussion to give some lyrics.

BTW - never heard of "Glasgow Lulaby" either.



Nice idea though - should be a fun thread.

You're so vain you probably think this song is about you.

These boots were made for walking.

Now I know you're not the only starfish in the sea. (Red Rubber Ball)

I got a letter from LBJ, saying this is your lucky day

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:43 AM

You Picked a Fine Time to Leave Me Lucille. No wonder she left him

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 11:53 PM

Bob Dylan's (?) 'Don't Think Twice It's All Right', which contains the verse -

I don't say you treated me unkind.
You couldna done better, but I don't mind.
You just sorta wasted my precious time.
Don't think twice that's all right.
======
"You just sorta wasted my precious time!" Now isn't that a line designed to sink into your soul and fester?

Subject: RE: Passive agressive songs
From: Andrew Murphy
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 07:13 PM

I guess Glasgow Lullaby too.

Subject: Passive aggressive songs?
From: Andrew Murphy
Date: 23 Aug 15 - 07:11 PM

Just heard song Long Before Your Time by Johnny McEvoy on the radio and thought there was a very passive aggressive element to it.
Any good examples of passive aggressive folk songs?