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Commercial popular music

The Sandman 15 Sep 15 - 03:40 AM
Joe Offer 15 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM
The Sandman 15 Sep 15 - 05:26 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Sep 15 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Sep 15 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Sep 15 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,Richard 15 Sep 15 - 06:42 AM
The Sandman 15 Sep 15 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 15 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 15 - 07:38 AM
The Sandman 15 Sep 15 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 15 - 08:35 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Sep 15 - 08:41 AM
The Sandman 15 Sep 15 - 08:42 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Sep 15 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 15 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Sep 15 - 09:10 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 15 - 09:36 AM
Stu 15 Sep 15 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 15 - 10:09 AM
The Sandman 15 Sep 15 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Stim 15 Sep 15 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 15 - 10:30 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Sep 15 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Sep 15 - 10:43 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Sep 15 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,HiLo 15 Sep 15 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 15 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,# 15 Sep 15 - 04:24 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 15 - 05:01 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Sep 15 - 05:03 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 15 - 05:06 PM
Smedley 15 Sep 15 - 05:08 PM
olddude 15 Sep 15 - 05:11 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 15 - 05:17 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 15 - 06:03 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 15 - 06:07 PM
Joe Offer 15 Sep 15 - 07:45 PM
Joe_F 15 Sep 15 - 09:03 PM
The Sandman 16 Sep 15 - 01:02 AM
michaelr 16 Sep 15 - 01:58 AM
Doug Chadwick 16 Sep 15 - 05:24 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 15 - 05:27 AM
Stu 16 Sep 15 - 05:30 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Sep 15 - 05:42 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Sep 15 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 16 Sep 15 - 08:13 AM
The Sandman 16 Sep 15 - 09:21 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Sep 15 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 16 Sep 15 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,gillymorg4 16 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM
The Sandman 16 Sep 15 - 12:24 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Sep 15 - 12:29 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Sep 15 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 16 Sep 15 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,gillymorg4 16 Sep 15 - 12:55 PM
Ernest 16 Sep 15 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,HiLo 16 Sep 15 - 01:18 PM
The Sandman 16 Sep 15 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 16 Sep 15 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 16 Sep 15 - 02:19 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Sep 15 - 02:34 PM
The Sandman 16 Sep 15 - 03:04 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 15 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 16 Sep 15 - 03:25 PM
The Sandman 16 Sep 15 - 04:24 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Sep 15 - 04:26 PM
Steve Gardham 16 Sep 15 - 04:57 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 15 - 05:26 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 15 - 05:26 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 15 - 06:31 PM
The Sandman 16 Sep 15 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,# 16 Sep 15 - 08:28 PM
Steve Gardham 17 Sep 15 - 03:12 AM
Joe Offer 17 Sep 15 - 03:29 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 15 - 03:34 AM
The Sandman 17 Sep 15 - 03:40 AM
The Sandman 17 Sep 15 - 05:49 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Sep 15 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Grishka 17 Sep 15 - 06:57 AM
The Sandman 17 Sep 15 - 06:58 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,Grishka 17 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,colin holt 17 Sep 15 - 08:06 AM
Steve Gardham 17 Sep 15 - 01:17 PM
Ernest 17 Sep 15 - 01:40 PM
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Subject: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 03:40 AM

1.will commercially popular song,[eg songs written purely to make money] ever erase songs written by poeople who write purely for fun.
2.do commercially popular songs songs become folk music if they are sung on football terraces and adapted by singing sports fans.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM

1. A lot of commercially popular songs are a lot of fun, and they will endure. The Duke of Earl will live forever, and so will Love Potion Number Nine. But then, I don't think songwriters write songs "purely to make money." Leiber & Stoller and Rodgers & Hammerstein certainly wrote to make money, but I think they also wrote songs because they loved music.

2. Do commercially popular songs become folk music? Depends on how one defines folk music. Are Stephen Foster songs and Carter Family songs folk music? I think they are, but some think they aren't.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:26 AM

I will clarify , I meant songs written purely with the intention of making money rather than songs written for other reasons.
Carter family songs were mostly trad songs either adapted or collected from his neigbourhood or claimed to have been written by A. P Carter, most of them [not all] were not originally written with the sole intention of making money.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:49 AM

1) No! As long as people want to write songs for fun and others want to sing them, they will survive up there with the commercial songs. There is nothing special about commercially written songs that give them the power to erase other songs. I agree with Joe - very few songs, outside of advertising jingles, are written purely to make money.

2) Sports fans taking up a commercially popular song to sing on football terraces doesn't automatically make it a folk song but it can happen. It may stick around for a season or two and then fade away or like "You'll Never Walk Alone" it can become engrained in the nation's consciousness to the point where even non-sports fans associate it more with football, and Liverpool F.C. in particular, than with the musical Carousel. At this point it has taken on a life of its own and is a good candidate for being described as a folk song.

DC


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:02 AM

Probably most songs (and poems, novels, etc.) about strong feelings have been written in a sober state of mind - whether for money, for fun, or for a broad desire to do good, or other reasons in arbitrary combination. Good songs can be written by bad people.

We all know examples of successful songs that sound purely commercial. These are bad songs by definition.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:12 AM

A good song is a good song. Why it was written is beside the point. If a song is popular or is z commercial success that does not diminish its value. I think that this issue of "commercial pop music" is an absolute red herring.music is music.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:42 AM

Most of songs we think of as folk songs, in particular Broadside ballads, were written to make money. Lots of them are excellent songs; however, the good ones spawn a host of derivatives, some good, and some bad.(How many Broken Token songs do we need?) This seems to parallel the case of pop music, where eg. the Beatles were followed by huge numbers of embarrassingly derivative "Merseybeat" copies. Mind you, I liked a lot of them at the time; but the originals survive, and are frequently sung in folk circles without too many grumbles.
Richard


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:32 AM

"A good song is a good song. Why it was written is beside the point."
no, i disagree,how many songs that are written purely to be commercial are good songs? most of the songs that i would describe as good songs were written because the writer was passionate to say something.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:34 AM

...an argument could be made that most heartfelt 'amateur' self composed singer songwriter 'contemporary folk' songs
ever inflicted on other people's ears are utter crap....


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:38 AM

"how many songs that are written purely to be commercial are good songs?"

By now, probably many thousands...


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 08:27 AM

"how many songs that are written purely to be commercial are good songs?"

By now, probably many thousands."
what a facile comment, give us some examples.
hilarious, depends rather on what you call a good song, doesnt it?
right,here are some examples of good songs not written with the sole intention of making money, first time ever i saw your face, thirty foot trailer,joy of living, manchester rambler,moving on song,freeborn man. now we all know first time ever became commercially successful , but it was not written with the intention of solely making money.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 08:35 AM

"Facile"... hmmmm...

Ok - I'll swap you 'facile' for 'clueless sweeping statements'.... 😜


..and you want examples... it's not too late to open your ears and find out for yourself...


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 08:41 AM

Dick
People are responding to your questions with perfectly reasoned arguments and you are responding with insults (facile). Your own stance here is simply your own opinion and definitely not fact.

What Richard is saying is actually FACT.

Your 2nd question. I would ask you what you think. Which aspects of songs sung on the terraces do not qualify as folk song? In my opinion they all do!


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 08:42 AM

you stated something back it up with examples, i have no wish to open my ears to the hits of hermans hermits, britney spears or cliff richard ,i have heard enough of that type of commercial shit, go off and listen yourself you supercillious poster


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 08:53 AM

Oh dear! Dick, you are not doing yourself any favours here. Don't be so narrow-minded!


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 08:55 AM

blimey... first time ever I've been called 'supercillious'...

"The first time, ever I got called supercillious
I thought the sun shone out my arse..... etc.. etc..
"


oh dear.. I've been hanging around mudcat too long and it must be starting to rub off.....?????

oh god no... how long before I end up smug and cantankerous...!!!??? 😱


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:10 AM

I don't presume to know the motivation of songwriters, money or passion. I don't see those things as mutually exclusive. I repeat my original statement, good music is good music. Much of opo music is just fun to listen to, it does not claim to be great art, it is the music of its day, people enjoy, then move on. But many of these "pop" songs are great song and stay with us over generations.
   Your view seems to suggest that if music makes money it is bad music and that is just rubbish and a very narrow view, I think.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:36 AM

Well recently I've been editing (which meaning doing a bit of abridging and splicing and making medleys) of mostly pop songs for our local dance teacher and friend. I have to listen to bits of songs over and over to get the cuts and joins right, and I've been utterly gobsmacked by the sheer quality of some of the stuff I'm working on. Much of the most commercial modern pop music is performed and produced to a staggeringly high standard. Most of it is not to my personal taste, but what I've been doing has educated me away from the usual dismal "all this modern stuff is rubbish" school of thought. After all, that's what my mum and dad said about the Beatles. So, to me, this thread is predicated on false premises. A good song is a good song, and a big healthy dose of "matter of taste" and "whatever stirs yer loins" enters into it, and long may it be so.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:53 AM

"britney spears"

Ever heard Richard Thompson singing Brtiney's "Oops I did it again"? A good song is a good song, and the whole thing is subjective anyway. I liked the original too.

As for the intent of the writer, who cares? What we take from songs invariably has sod all to do with what the writers were thinking about when they penned them anyway. If they wrote a song to make a few quid and it's a good song, so what?


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:09 AM

I guess my extensive diverse & eclectic record collection of the last 40 odd years would be Dick's vision of a nightmare hell...

Oddly enough I own very few of the countless thousands
of self written / self produced / self concious pompously self-styled 'folk artist' vanity project cassettes and CDs...

oh well... each to their own....😜


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:18 AM

I care, and i have not been convinced by any posts saying otherwise. firstly i have not said that all commercial songs are not well written, for example.. first time ever became commercial,but it was not written with the sole intention of making money, it was written for peggy seeger to perform at a concert, but it was not written with the intention of being a number one ,it was an expression of how Ewan felt for Peggy., IT WAS WRITTEN AS A PASSIONATE STATEMENT.
contrast, we are all going on a summer holiday, written for the film of the same name, its purpose was to make money, likewise the young ones,both songs are absolute drivel, and typical of many of the substandard songs by elvis and cliff that they performed in second rate commercial films.
lyrics to the young ones here

The Young Ones

The young ones
Darling, we're the young ones
And young ones
Shouldn't be afraid

To live, love
While the flame is strong
'Cause we may not be the young ones
Very long

Tomorrow
Why wait until tomorrow?
'Cause tomorrow
Sometimes never comes

So love me
There's a song to be sung
And the best time is to sing
While we're young

Once in every lifetime
Comes a love like this
Oh, I need you and you need me
Oh, my darling, can't you see?

Young dreams
Should be dreamed together
And young hearts
Shouldn't be afraid

And some day
When the years have flown
Darling, then we'll teach the young ones
Of our own

Once in every lifetime
Comes a love like this
Oh, I need you and you need me
Oh, my darling, can't you see?

Young dreams
Should be dreamed together
And young hearts
Shouldn't be afraid

And some day
While the years have flown
Darling, then we'll teach the young ones
Of our own

The young ones
Darling, we're the young ones
The young ones
Darling, we're the young ones


personally i would not let Cliff near any young people ever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqmNuvHScrc


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:22 AM

Steve Shaw says it all--


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:30 AM

ahhh.. yes... "The Young Ones" an achingly good classic pop song....

I'd love to hear what June Tabor could do with that...😎


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:31 AM

Dick,
Does it make any difference at all that you have been outvoted by millions and millions of 'Folk'? By 'folk' I obviously here mean the people in the street not those cliquey small groups who sit listening to the commercial songs of two centuries ago.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:43 AM

Of course there are loads of bad "Pop" song, there are folk songs that are real clinkers, that is music, some is good and some isn't. You haven't been convinced because you have closed your mind...stop agonizing over definitions and just enjoy the music.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:46 AM

Tin Pan Alley grew out of the need for songwriters and song pluggers to demonstrate the tunes they had to sell to vaudeville and Broadway performers. Out of this came the classic songs of the Great American Songbook. If you want examples of songs that are written purely to be commercial which are good songs, then you will find them here in abundance.

Are you seriously trying to say, Dick, that Gershwin, Berlin, Porter and the like did not produce great music?

DC


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:57 AM

Not to mention Carol King, Gerry Goffin, Lieber and Stoller who toiled away in the Brill Building and created classic pop songs.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 11:00 AM

Dick - publicly vented prejudice of any form, just ...well.. smells bad...

To mildly misquote Kurt Cobain'''

"Smells Like Old Man's Spleen Spirit"..... 😬


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 04:24 PM

This thread is a testament to the belief that there's one born every minute.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:01 PM

Offhand, I think one of the best examples of how a song can transcend genre is "If you gotta Make a Fool of Somebody". Compare the Freddie and the Dreamers banal version with the poignant Bonnie Raitt rendering.    If it had another verse I'd sing it myself.


"Poison and Wine" is another damned good pop song with a layer underneath it.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:03 PM

i suppose the real difference is that the music you call drivel is loved and known by millions.

play the The Young ones to any roomful of people in England they'll sing along - knowing every word. i can't think of a single Mac Coll that is true of. they know most of the first verse of Dirty Old Town but thats it.

you dedicate your life to whichever you think .....

i think i've tried to bear in mind both. that way you despised by both schools of songwriting.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:06 PM

Hi Al. Travelling Light is another guilty pleasure....


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Smedley
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:08 PM

I'm a bit baffled why 'The Young Ones' is being held up as an example. It's half a century old & popular music has taken, to put it mildly, a few twists and turns since then.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: olddude
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:11 PM

No right or wrong when it comes to music. People have fun either way. I listened to barry manilow taking about his jingle days and what fun it was to write for mcd's and Pepsi etc


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:17 PM

What was MacColl's day job ?


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:03 PM


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:07 PM

Oops, sorry about that. I was about to say that the listening to any music is an entirely voluntary pastime. You're entitled to your opinion, but, get all heavy about it and, well, you'll look like a bit of a twit, frankly.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:45 PM

I think that the idea of songs written "purely for commercial purposes" is, for the most part, a myth I used to believe in. But as I study a wider variety of music, I find genius in all genres. Sure, there are lots of flops, but the flops are not all commercial.

I've been following Taylor Swift's recordings lately. Her "Mean" is a classic. I think she's an extraordinary songwriter, and very clever and insightful. When I researched songs for the "Millennials" chapter of the Rise Again songbook, I was amazed at the intelligence of lyrics of songs that were popular when my kids were teenagers.

Here's a very commercial song, Feist's 1, 2, 3, 4, released in 2007. And here's the Sesame Street version.

Oh, and here's Sons and Daughters, recorded by the Decemberists.

There's still a lot of very good music being written - some of it for profit.

-Joe-

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:03 PM

Why I wish there were less of it:
Book review


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:02 AM

thankyou for that book review,at last a post worthy of reading.
the young ones is an example of banal lyrics Smedley.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:58 AM

Just watched the Steve Coogan/Rob Bryden film The Trip, in which they sing the Abba song "The Winner Takes it All", and had to admit to myself that that is actually a very well-written song. It certainly seems heart-felt, the way "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" does.

No one here can claim to know what was motivating a songwriter at the moment of creation (although reams of speculation have been published analyzing, say, Bob Dylan's work). All that counts is whether the song speaks to you, engages you on some level. If it engages many, it becomes a commercial success; if it engages few, it may still be an artistic success. The two are not the same; neither are they mutually exclusive.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:24 AM

An interesting book review, Joe_F, though it didn't really explain to me why you want less of it. The more that's out there, the bigger the choice. It might take more effort to sort the wheat from the chaff but it should be possible to find something that suits.

The first thing it shows, for me, is how subjective the appreciation of music can be. The reviewer sets out his own stall by the comment:

"Briefly, in my book popular music peaked about 1900 and became vile about 1940."

but, for me, the period between the two world wars was the Golden Age. Others, of course, will have their own views.

DC


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:27 AM

Anyone who wants less of it simply needs to turn the wireless off!


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:30 AM

Lyrics are for singing and not every lyric needs to have meaning, they can just be fun. 'The Young Ones" (as has been mentioned) is a great singalong, as is 'Highway to Hell' by AC/DC or 'When Jones' Ale was New'.

There's heaps of really good music being made now, by talented young musicians who write wonderful songs. Spend a couple of days listening to BBC 6 Music and revel in the diversity and joy of all genres modern, old, folk, rock, pop and everything else.

Why close your mind off? Life's too short!


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:42 AM

Well done, Steve: "wireless" not "radio". Jolly U! Nancy Mitford would have been proud of you!

≈M≈

Now, back to my nice lie-down -- nothing if not obedient to my masters!...


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:55 AM

How nice to see "wireless" and "lie down", the latter as distinct from "lay down" which might be more fun although less restful.

How about Billy Idol's "White Wedding" - that really gets them yelling along on the dance floor, and "Hi Ho Silver Lining"?

And some of Pink's stuff is damned fine too.

Christina Aquilera is fun but "Horny" is not great literature.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:13 AM

Basically, none of us and the vast majority of music lovers need to justify or apologize our enjoyment of all kinds of music
to a useless minority of dead in the ears & heart & heart old dogmatic fundamentalists... 😣

If they don't get it - f@ck 'em... it's their loss... 😜


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:21 AM

Basically, none of us and the vast majority of music lovers need to justify or apologize our enjoyment of all kinds of music
to a useless minority of dead in the ears & heart & heart old dogmatic fundamentalists..
a very offensive statement,
Iam not asking anyone to apologise for anything.
my belief is that the best commercial songs were not written with the intention of being a commercial success, and that all the best written songs were written because the writer felt strongly about his subject and his motive was not solely to make money, I would classify three songs immediately in this category, masters of war, imagine, first time ever.
now i do not know, about the first two, but i think its unlikely, it has been recorded, why MacColl wrote the last song and it was not to be a number one hit. now punk folk rocker reead my posts and stop making childish and offensive comments


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:34 AM

Masters of War is a rip off of Nottamun Town.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:39 AM

Dick - with all due disrespect - you cannot sit up there in your damp dusty shrine of self-righteous superiority
pronouncing all you dislike as 'facile' 'banal' childish', or 'unworthy' of your wise sagelike consideration...


From down here you do make yourself look somewhat pompous, ignorant and silly...😐


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,gillymorg4
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM

The Gershwins, Rodgers and Hart, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin et al wrote thousands of beautiful, heartfelt songs for Broadway musicals with the intention of "packing them in" and in the process produced many of the greatest songs ever written.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:24 PM

Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:34 AM

Masters of War is a rip off of Nottamun Town.
another facile comment, it is a use of a traditional tune that was only found in the richie family, the words are original, nothing unusual about that songwriters in ireland use tradtional tunes all the time, the words are original and powerful.
"The Gershwins, Rodgers and Hart, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin et al wrote thousands of beautiful, heartfelt songs for Broadway musicals with the intention of "packing them in" and in the process produced many of the greatest songs ever written."
a matter of opinion, they may be melodically interesting, lyric wise its the same old rehashed pap


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:29 PM

I wouldn't say that of some of the Hammerstein lyrics in such as Oklahoma & S Pacific, Richard.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:30 PM

.. I meant Richard as in Dick there, of course.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:44 PM

... and another thing, I see absolutely no reason to stop me enjoying Dick's youtube videos
of him fingering his squeebox and interpreting good old trad songs
as much as I can can find pleasure in some obscure Herman's Hermits B sides and LP tracks...


..depends on the mood I'm in...


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,gillymorg4
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:55 PM

Your man McColl wrote some excellent songs but he never wrote a lyric that rivaled the best of Ira Gershwin, Lorenz Hart, Cole Porter or the other great lyricists from the golden age of song


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:58 PM

As MGM Lion quoted in the "Actors who play/sing folk music" thread:

"Many of MacColl's best-known songs were written for the theatre. For example, he wrote "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" very quickly at the request of Peggy Seeger, who needed it for use in a play she was appearing in..."

I presume one had to pay an admission fee to see the play - so it seems to be written for commercial reasons too.

Now how does that change the value of the song, GSS?


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:18 PM

I am curious as to why you would start a thread and then be so rude and disrespectful to so many who have responded to your post. If you don't want people to disagree with you, don't post. This is a forum, not a soapbox.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:57 PM

From: Ernest - PM
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:58 PM

As MGM Lion quoted in the "Actors who play/sing folk music" thread:

"Many of MacColl's best-known songs were written for the theatre. For example, he wrote "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" very quickly at the request of Peggy Seeger, who needed it for use in a play she was appearing in..."

I presume one had to pay an admission fee to see the play - so it seems to be written for commercial reasons too.

Now how does that change the value of the song, GSS?
dont be ridiculous
as far as I am aware the song was written after a telephone
conversation between MacColl and Seeger, she requesting a song, Ewan wrote it for her. MacColl did not write it for the purpose of making money, he wrote it because he was expressing how he felt for peggy seeger.
to say that something is a facile comment, is not rude, please look it up in the dictionary
superciliious means disdainful, my comments were statements of fact, the rudeness came later from punkfolk rocker


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:59 PM

😇


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 02:19 PM

seriously Dick - while you are googling dictionary definitions - check out 'spurious' & 'irrelevant'...


and errrr.... perhaps maybe 'irreverence' & 'truce'... 😜


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 02:34 PM

... & further re Richard Rodgers, the songs he wrote with lyrics by Lorenz Hart, before he teamed up with Hammerstein after Hart's death, are well worth considering. Are there many songs better than "Lady is a Tramp"? And Hammerstein had plenty of fine form to cite, from his earlier collaboration with Kern on Show Boat, for instance. Ole Man River not too PC these days perhaps; but Paul Robeson sang it without demur, it would seem.


≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:04 PM

now if i wanted to be rude i would tell you to fuck off, but i have not despite silly provocation, and ridicuously pedantic comments from S Gardham,
yes of course broadsheets were written for pennies so in a pedantic sense he is correct, but broadsheets being sold for pennies is vastly different from manufactured groups like the monkees and later boy bands performing rehashed banalites, which Provided financial benefit to the record producers and management of these musical simpletons


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:10 PM

This thread makes me realise why I hear folkies snigger when Mudcat is mentioned.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:25 PM

yes 50 years ago - the Monkees were a manufactured band - no big surprise or secret.

Guess what.. rumour has it so were The Archies..


What is widely acknowledged is that the songs written for them
were produced by the best and brightest professional songwriting teams and session musicians of that era.

Many of their records are established respected and cherished classics.

You don't approve, and dismiss then and their ilk as banal...

ok - well.. we've all known or been amateur songwriters, those who write only for fun & self expression,
who's entire output of songs have been dismal shite...

To call some of them banal would be a great compliment...


.. no big deal.. the world keeps turning...


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 04:24 PM

I listen and and then make judgements on everything.
I applaud anyone who has a go at anything creative, particularly if their love of making music for the sake of it is evident, if they ask me for advice,i will try and help as best that i can.
if someone gets up and says I have written this song, because i want to be a star,and appear on x factor, my attitude would be different, do you understand where i am coming from?


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 04:26 PM

'songs written by poeople who write purely for fun.'

Can you give us some examples, Dick?


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 04:57 PM

'and ridicuously pedantic comments from S Gardham,'

Could you remind us which ones on this thread you thought were ridiculously pedantic, Dick? Just interested.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:26 PM

Dick I'm really surprised that you have not taken the opportunity to present yet another of your sad blue clickies to make a pointless thread even more pointless


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:26 PM

Now guys. Dick has painted himself into a corner here. The merciful thing to do would be to commence a period of silence. Only if you're the merciful type, mind. :-)


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:31 PM

Cole Porter wrote "Miss Otis Regrets" for a bet.

He was in a New York restaurant one lunchtime with a circle of friends, one of whom bet him that he couldn't write a song based on the next thing they heard spoken near their table (so the story goes). A waiter appeared at the next table and said, "Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today, madame."

And so was born one of the shortest and most poignant ballads ever written - in my view - encapsulating a seduction, a betrayal, a murder and a lynching in just 3 simple verses. How's that for a murder ballad? I think it's one of the greatest popular song ever written, along with "Brother, Can You Spare A Dime?"

It was originally supposed to be sung by a black female singer (whose name escapes me), but was actually performed on the stage for the first time by the brilliant female impersonator, cabaret artist and pantomine dame Douglas Byng. Dougie - whose punchline was "Bawdy, but British" lived his last days in Brighton - and it was he who told me the story of how the song came to be written.

So - what's the motive for writing the song here? A bet, amusement, performance, money? Who gives a toss - it's a great song. Full stop.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:08 PM

If you want to believe that writing songs with the sole intention of making money is the best criteria for producing good quality songs then you are welcome.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,#
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:28 PM

"If you want to believe that writing songs with the sole intention of making money is the best criteria for producing good quality songs then you are welcome."

Nobody said that. 'Cept you.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:12 AM

I'm with SteveS


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:29 AM

I think, Dick, that people are asking that you give some examples of successful songwriters who write "with the sole intention of making money." There are very few people who do anything well, if they do it "with the sole intention of making money."

I think you're arguing against something that really doesn't exist.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:34 AM

Indeed, Joe. And the other variable in the equation is one's definition of "good quality songs" - one man's meat, etc.

I've heard excellent songs in the genres of folk, jazz, pop, opera, blues, and so on - and I've heard utterly crap songs in all those same genres. So...?


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:40 AM

joe, the following
Steve mac, wayne hector,David Krueger, Jorgen Elofsson, Per Magnusson Anders Bagge, Laila Bagge, H. Sommerdah, S. Diamond         Karl Twigg, Lance Ellington, Mark Topham,ned albright, red baldwin jeff allbright roger atkins.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:49 AM

well written songs can undoubtedly be defined that is not a matter of taste


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 05:54 AM

Even bad music can be well written. We're not there yet, are we, Dick?


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:57 AM

The phenomenon meant by the OP undoubtedly exists, but the phrase "purely to make money" does not describe it properly. I suggest "Successful songs in whose message the writer did not believe". Evidence can be either the song itself, in which case it is a bad song, or knowledge about the writer's convictions or lifestyle.

For example, the hippie movement was shamelessly exploited by writers whose lifestyle was definitely bourgeois. Nevertheless, they may have had fun and artistic satisfaction from disguising as hippies.

We must face it: entertainment business, including serious art and literature, will always look for trends in society to exploit. We may call that cynicism, but what really counts is the results.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:58 AM

yes we are i have named song writers who wrote commercial recordings for the sole intent of making money, their wotk may be popular but that does not make it good. nobody else as yet has given an example of 20 or 21st century popular music that was written with the sole intent of making money , that was any good. There is no proof that Gershwin wrote solely for money, the guys i mentioned did and their songs are ephemeral


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM

May I add that what really worries me about the entertainment industry is the shows on TV and other media, in which presenters sell songs and other items as if they were the real world. Faked song contests and casting shows, news that are either blatant lies or amount to that by their selectiveness, etc.

Compared to that, all songs and novels etc. are completely honest, since they are openly declared fictional.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM

... forgot to sign; sorry.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: GUEST,colin holt
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 08:06 AM

Can we go back to the original questions... as so often, they get lost in the mix
1.will commercially popular song,[eg songs written purely to make money] ever erase songs written by people who write purely for fun.

How can they be erased... question makes no sense at all. Something written just to make money does not automatically become popular, and therefore not commercially successful. A Song has to be liked by a lot of people before it becomes popular.... it has to be purchased by a lot of people to be commercially successful..
2.do commercially popular songs songs become folk music if they are sung on football terraces and adapted by singing sports fans.
No to that one ....
.Surely.. Most professional writers do so with the notion that they will be commercially popular. (earn a living ).. The best of them make the songs they write sound as though they are heart felt !!!!!They make a connection....and its seamless seamless Nothing wrong in that Dick !!. So cleverly done you would never know !!..


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:17 PM

No 2. As I asked Dick, and he declined to answer.....Colin, what is it about terrace songs that excludes them from being folk in your opinion? Most academics would classify them as 'folk'.


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Subject: RE: Commercial popular music
From: Ernest
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 01:40 PM

GSS,

you still haven`t convinced me: I believe Ewan McColl knew that Peggy Seeger wanted a song for the play that she was appearing in - so maybe he had no intention to make money with the song, but help her to make money with the play. Once somebody is making music as part of making a living, money is at least an issue on the side.

In my point of view the difference between a good and a bad song is not about the money, but about the understanding/feelings one has about the topic of the song - plus of course some "technical" knowledge about composing, instrumentation etc. and putting it together with the lyrics.

As to the songwriters you mentioned I am afraid I don`t know any of these names - can you name some of their songs that might be known?


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