please take off those tuners!

Subject: please take off those electronic tuners!
From: Andy7
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 05:15 PM

One of my new pet hates is the large number of guitar players at folk clubs that leave their electronic tuners attached to the ends of their instruments.

Do you keep the kettle in your hand while you're drinking the mug of tea it just helped to make? Of course not, that kettle's part in the tea-making is over!

So please, take off the tuner before you perform your song. You tuned your guitar already - and yes, it's perfectly tuned! - so what's that tuner doing still stuck on the end of your instrument?

I am a fan of useful technology; and electronic tuners are so much easier to use, and more accurate, than pitch pipes. I use mine all the time.

But a guitar is a real work of art. And to me, leaving a bit of electronic plastic stuck on the end while you're performing a song somehow grates. I know it doesn't affect the sound; but it just looks ugly!

Does anyone else feel the same?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 05:18 PM

I doubt it

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 05:25 PM

Quite agree. I saw one recently that was not only attached but switched on giving a light show and constant indication of what notes were being played and how out of tune they were.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 05:33 PM

yes - remove that ugly tuner and put the old battery operated Hawaiian Hula Dancing Doll back on the headstock.....


or the nodding head dog...

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 05:45 PM

very weird......

we need more tuners - particularly on banjos and violins
in fact, I'd make it compulsory

and some singers - I'd fit them with a tuner, in fact an auto tune wouldn't be a bad idea.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 06:24 PM

Does that mean the capo has to go, too?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 06:27 PM

No, they don't worry me at all - insignificant - but yes, switch them off while not tuning or you'll run your battery down as well as piss off those that don't like 'em.

But what does really annoy me beyond belief is so-alled professional performers who have electronic tuners attached but don't actually use them and then spend valuable quarter hours unsuccessfully tuning by ear - recent painful experience - I'll name no names - still ending up with badly tuned guitar, or giving up completely, ditching the guitar, and singing a cappella. Do they actually know how to USE a tuner?
And that in a set that can only last 55 minutes by order of the management - so we've paid to hear you not tuning your guitar properly for at least a quarter of the time there! RANT, RANT, RANT!!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: fat B****rd
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 06:40 PM

Give me a smoking fag on a string any day. No innuendo intended.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 06:41 PM

I agree, Tattie. There is definitely something to be said for "Having your act ready to go."

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 06:46 PM

Big Al, with violins or fiddles they may have perfectly tuned open strings but it's where they put their fingers that counts!!!!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 08:24 PM

Stuck on the end of an instrument means I know where it is. And tuned instruments can go out of tune, and you don't want to have to go rummaging round in your pocket, mixed up with the junk that accumulates there.

They make instruments these days with built in tuners. Tidier, I suppose. But you could guarantee the battery would run down just when you need it.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 08:44 PM

Well, speaking as a melody player of an instrument with fixed tuning, I bless the day that cheapie tuners for strummers became the norm. No more prats who've "tuned by ear" a quarter bloody tone below concert. Many's the time I felt like tuning their bloody ears with a bunch o' fives. I want tuners everywhere, loud, proud and flashing out their civilised and triumphant messages. Viva!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 10:29 PM

Big Al,

and some singers - I'd fit them with a tuner, in fact an auto tune wouldn't be a bad idea.

I want one of those.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 10:39 PM

If the tuner is taken off before performing then it has to be put away or else risk getting lost or broken. This adds an inevitable delay before the performance begins. The guitar could easily get knocked in the process and end up out of tune again.

No! Leave the tuner safely where it is and put it safely away when the song is finished. If you don't like it, don't look. Concentrate on the finger work or the singer's face instead of fussing about things that aren't important.

DC

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:18 AM

If left on the headstock for any length of time, the solvents in the tuner pads can damage the instrument finish.

Dave H

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:18 AM

I put my tuner on with the 'screen' bit at the back of the headstock - visible only to me. That way, I don't offend TWAEO.

I generally take it off once I'm tuned, and put it on the little table or stool I use to put my picks/capos/tuner on (and thus avoid 'losing' them during performance).

It's called 'being organised'.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:34 AM

'If left on the headstock for any length of time, the solvents in the tuner pads can damage the instrument finish.'

most guitars look like they've dragged backwards through a hedge after a few years in folk clubs Dave. you'd have to be very anal retentive to worry about the damage done by the pads of the tuners.

what the original poster fails to recognise is that the guitar usually requires adjustment with every change of key and certainly of tuning. Tarrega said he had spent at least forty of the fifty years he played guitar just tuning the damn thing.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:55 AM

I think I would quite like a big one in a session - mega screen size- to show the notes of the tune. I'm not bad at picking up tunes - but I don't always manage it by the end of the second time through. So lets do away with the little ones and go mega.
FloraG

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:40 AM

the worst are those that leave them on and clipped to their music stands whilst they fumble through reams of paper to find their songs.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:44 AM

I play mandolin, mandolins have 2 states, being tuned or out of tune.

Dave H

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:42 AM

I thought they were just little spotlights intended to make the drops of sweat in the singer's cleavage sparkle or highlight their open fly buttons with glittery reflections? Why would the performer want to look at them?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 07:50 AM

Think yourself lucky anyone bothers to turn up at a folk club to perform at all!!!!!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Anne Lister
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 08:01 AM

Good grief ... surely there are more important things in this world to worry about? Even in terms of performance technique.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 08:20 AM

Can these tuners be configured for perfect intervals or do they always show equal temperament? If the latter, you might want that in a session but not for a solo instrument.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 08:46 AM

For the uninitiated, "perfect intervals" are those where the number of staff serving at the bar matches the number of customers wishing to be served.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 09:31 AM

Excellent explanation of Just vs Equal Temperament tuning.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 10:20 AM

Nigel, I like your definition.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 11:02 AM

Now the original poster has stirred the pot he/she seems to have taken a back seat

Gerry

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 12:14 PM

Not taking a back seat, just interested in reading everyone's replies/opinions.

I agree that it's not exactly the most important thing in the world; or even in the world of folk, haha! But I think it does spoil the line of the instrument, and thus detracts just a little from the performance - especially if accidentally left on.

Imagine Leonidas Kavakos performing Sibelius on a Strad at the Royal Festival Hall, with an electronic tuner attached to the scroll of his violin! Okay, we might only be performing to a few fellow folkies in a draughty hall on a wet evening in November, but performing we still are; and a part of that performance is how the instrument looks.

It only takes a second to take the thing off and pop it into a pocket or bag! It will still be there ready for the tune-up before your next song!

Andy

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,gillymorg4
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 12:53 PM

It doesn't bother me but as Andy pointed out it does break up the line of a nice instrument. It's cool to see a Collings or Santa Cruz haircut headstock or a Bourgeois snake head but it seems that most performers I see don't perform with their better instruments and there's a lot of plainjane Martin and Martin-style head stocks out there.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 01:03 PM

I object to those people who have sex with their tuners, why dont they stick to Pigs, as David Cameron allegedly has a prefernce for.
if David comes to your folk club confiscate his tuner.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 01:19 PM

Tuna? Oh no, not them as well!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 01:51 PM

As an unarmed singer, it is quite intimidating to walk into a room full of guitars, all with bayonets affixed, ready to drown out the dulcet tones of my unamplified voice.

It's kinda like walking through a supermarket parking lot, with those big, evil trailer hitches sticking out at a level that is very distressing for those of us of the male gender.

So, I fear that some day, I'm going to poke my eye out walking into a room full of tuner-adorned guitars.

But what the heck, I'd rather get my balls busted by a trailer hitch, than sing with an out-of-tune guitar. Honey, if it makes tuning easier for you, you keep that tuner wherever you want to keep it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:16 PM

"But I think it does spoil the line of the instrument, and thus detracts just a little from the performance"

But some accessories could actually enhance the appearance and function...

I've always fancied attaching a bayonet to the headstock of one of my guitars...😜

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:17 PM

Blimey....does it really matter?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:19 PM

oops... now there's a coincidence.. not refreshed this page for a while, so hadn't seen Joe's post

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:32 PM

is the OP a case of hearing with your eyes! If the guy on your CD had an in-line tuner during the recording session would it offend your inner man?

(Thinks - what would he say if he saw this picture)

I tune 'cos I care and with a Swish Army knife of course - it's wot the alien key attachment is for!

Red Drum spells murdder backwards - & I'm not afraid to use it!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:46 PM

so the tambourine bashers are out of tune
?
sometimes I forget to take tuner off before bagging guitar and then wonder where it is next time till I unbag guitar.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM

You're all correct, of course, it doesn't matter. I can still really enjoy songs from performers even with that pesky tuner attached, it's not a big thing (no pun intended).

And yet, it does matter. Because it matters to me, just a little bit. And if I was the only one in the world that it matters to (just a little bit), I'd be pretty amazed!

Interesting that not one poster so far has said that they actually prefer to see a guitar with a tuner attached (as opposed to finding it useful to have one attached to their own guitar)!

P.S. Nice red drum! Shame about the tuner! :-)

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM

I've always fancied attaching a bayonet to the headstock of one of my guitars...😜

so you can kill fascists?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 03:09 PM

There was a time when electronic tuners didn't exist (for anyone here young enough to have missed the days of checking a dial tone in whatever city one found oneself and then using an A-440 tuning fork to figure out what note was sounding on the dial tone. Then, if one lost the tuning fork ya could always get tuned appropriately. Of course, tuning by ear is ideal, and I don't care to see tuners on guitars, but then that's just a matter of taste and aesthetics. I play often with musicians who keep tuners attached and that's fine with me. What I find to be a danger is strings that haven't been clipped or wound so they don't poke holes in one's skin. About that there oughta be a law. YMMV.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:21 PM

The thing is Andy, people who feel that it is important to let everyone know what they don't like have completely worn me out.

Some how or another, when the set is over, they manage to push ahead of the folks who want to say, "Thank you, that was my mother's favorite song" and tell you that you played it in D when it should have been G, or that you shouldn't have sung "Good King Wenceslaus" because is not a Christmas song, and is about "The Feast of Stephen", or that you were wrong to play a "piano blues" on your guitar, that I either should or shouldn't have played something by the Rolling Stones, or that it is immoral to play Maj7th chords.

And yes, they are entitled to their opinion, and yes, because I am the performer, I am obliged to smile and listen politely, and even to apologize. And yes, I shouldn't let that stuff get to me, and I usually don't. Over time though, you don't forget.

At some point, I remembered that customer service axiom that for every person whose complaint you receive, their are ten more who don't say anything. Given that I often played in coffeehouses or such places where a good audience often numbered 20-30,it came to me that it wasn't worth going out anymore;-)

Anyway, Andy, you'll be glad to know that you will never see my tuner on my guitar, or even my guitar, because I decline all invitations to perform. You're welcome to try your hand at it, though, and if I happen to hear you, I'll be only to glad to correct your thumb placement.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 05:38 PM

Wow, Guest.Stim, you make a really good point! And yes, it's so much easier to criticise than to praise; I, like many others, am very sensitive to criticism, and equally slow to believe that praise is genuine.

And so I'll change the viewpoint in my original post, and say, "Just as a point of interest, I slightly prefer watching guitar players if they don't leave their electronic tuners on the ends of their guitars. I always take off my tuner. But that's only a personal opinion, what do others think?"

Thank you for pointing this out! The tuners really don't matter, after all!

Andy

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:01 PM

Thank you for listening, Andy;-)

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:05 PM

You're welcome! :-)

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:10 PM

It's so important to listen to what others say, and to change our opinions if they need changing. This has worked for me, in this discussion. So, thank you.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:20 PM

I think for me, it's about listening to a guitar player...aesthetics aside, at the end of the day, surely it's about the music and not the tools? All of us on this thread are lucky to be able to access it being played live and therefore well placed to comment about that little plastic piece of digital wizadry that we see perched on the end of a multiplicity of instruments. We all may have our own preferences, likes and dislikes and this thread has explored the pros and cons quite nicely...Let's say 'each to our own' and get on with enjoying the folky stuff.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 06:30 PM

Ps...I perch the red Snark on the end of my guitar...and funnily enough, I'm often out of tune :)

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 07:14 PM

"I think for me, it's about listening to a guitar player...aesthetics aside, at the end of the day, surely it's about the music and not the tools? All of us on this thread are lucky to be able to access it being played live and therefore well placed to comment about that little plastic piece of digital wizadry that we see perched on the end of a multiplicity of instruments. We all may have our own preferences, likes and dislikes and this thread has explored the pros and cons quite nicely...Let's say 'each to our own' and get on with enjoying the folky stuff."

Nicely said!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 21 Sep 15 - 08:23 PM

Andy7, you are a nice guy despite having ignored my question about the capo. :-)

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: PHJim
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 12:41 AM

It's your guitar/banjo/mandolin/nyckelharpa. . . and if you want to leave stuff fastened to your headstock, it's up to you, but I'll admit to not liking the look of tuners, capos, cigarettes and unclipped strings (sometimes all on the same instrument), especially one with an attractive shape or some tasteful pearl inlay. These same folks will sometimes even have those stick-on pick holders as well.
If you're one of the folks who like to do this, I'll still jam with you, and won't even spend a lot of time thinking about how ugly these things look.
I'll also admit to having most of my cases covered with stickers, even though some of the musicians I play with think it's ugly.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 03:46 AM

Just a thought
Is there a capo/tuner combination out there? Might this solve the problem?
With modern electronix it is eminently possible and not over the top.

I might say...............








Nothing to fret about.






I'll get my Aran sweater........

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 04:00 AM

Now if they could do one of these for fiddle...

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 08:39 AM

I was always taught to tune it by ear,as close as I can get it, then shrug and mutter "It's close enough for folk" . Can't do that nowadays though, what with my 70s drawing near and my tinnitus etc.Still, there's always young Callum now,in South Zeal ; he can tune up and I'll tune to him !

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Cool Beans
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 09:03 AM

How about the aesthetic appeal, or lack thereof, of a player who visibly keeps a flatpick in his mouth until he needs it? I saw that the other day. It didn't bother me. The player was Pat Metheny.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 09:53 AM

the problem pre-tuners was not so much being out of tune as the fact we had to be in tune with the bossiest member of the band. one bloke who shall remain nameless used to fiddle with my machine heads on stage if he didn't think i wasn't in tune with him.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Uncle Len's Guitar Tutorials
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 10:33 AM

1] Tune up then squirt superglue all over the machineheads, bridge and nut slots...

wait one minute to set, then'll you'll never need to tune up again

Why this never occurred to Martin or Gibson to do this straight from the factory work bench ...????

Call themselves Professional Luthiers.... Bah bloody useless !!!???



Next:


2] How to play slide guitar without a slide or bottleneck

simply press drawing pins into the tips of your fretting fingers.


Stay tuned in for more helpful practical advice. [please press like and share with friends]

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 11:39 AM

Dear Uncle Len,

I just finished a welding course and I wonder if you have considered permanently affixing the strings in that manner?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 12:25 PM

...in DADGAD

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Uncle Len
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 12:38 PM

Welding is a terrific idea [Guitar manufacturers take note]
but in practical terms a little beyond the scope of most home DIY enthusiasts.

One alternative I am prototyping at the moment is to entirely remove and discard all strings.
Then with use of a long metal ruler and fine tip indelible ink pen,
carefully draw 6 [or 12 if you are an advanced player] parallel lines along the length of the fingerboard from nut down to bridge.

The stumbling problem I am encountering at the moment is that bloody big hole in the centre of the guitar body....

This needs some more thought... stay tuned...

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 12:50 PM

Dear Uncle Len,

Call me crazy, but have you considered turning the guitar backwards? That will solve the bloody big hole problem. Hey, Solutions R Us.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Uncle Len
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 01:28 PM

Top idea Mr [or Ms] #.

That offers a viable solution.
The curved profile neck is a much more ergonomic fingering surface than the flatter fingerboard.
Once the carefully drawn and spaced pen lines are applied - no more embarrassing audible fluffed notes or fret scrapes at folk music sessions.

Plus we could then incorporate another idea I had in mind to entirely fill the guitar with Builders expanding foam,
then seal off the hole with duct tape or a more permanent nailed on sheet of metal cut from the case of a disused VHS video recorder.

This would prevent drafts entering, circulating, then leaving the guitar,
and provide valuable insulation in winter saving an estimated 0.12 pence in wasted heating costs.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 01:53 PM

Yes, always remove your tuner unless one or all of the following apply:
a) You have new strings
b)it is exceptionally humid, exceptionally dry, warm, cold etc
c)you are playing a 12 string guitar
d)you bend notes a lot
e)you are afraid of leaving it on the table

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM

Try listening instead of just lookinng.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM

I thought those little screens were so football fans could see the results while singing Matty Groves or some other longwinded songs?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 09:53 AM

Dick, you are so radical and so right.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 10:42 AM

Dick, you're making an incorrect (and, dare I say, high-handed) assumption that people who use tuners don't listen to their instruments. I use an electronic tuner to 'get into the ball park' quickly, then I tweak the tuning by ear to get it 'dead on' - by which I mean into temperament.

Most of those I play with and around follow exactly the same process.

There's no shame in using a tuner - have you ever tried to tune by ear during a session in a pub, with boxes, fiddles, whistles and bodhrans all blasting away (not to mention bar-flies bellowing in each other's ears)?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 11:02 AM

Think Dick meant the audience, not the player, BWM!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 11:10 AM

Aaaaahh, I think you may be right, Tattie! Brain-Fade strikes again! :-)

Apologies to Dick if that's the case, my bad!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 11:24 AM

I took my guitar out of the room to tune it, returned, waited until singer finished and walked back to the seat next to my guitar case and drink, to be roundly told off for trying to 'jump the queue'.
Me being shy I said nothing and waited until the entire room had sung once, and a couple twice by which time the guitar was out of tune with the heat.

I bought a tuner.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 12:40 PM

rumncoke, i cannot criticise you for that

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 01:44 PM

A very good point. Not only do too many folk leave them attached but several ,leave them switched on wasting the batteries. My guitar comes with a built in tuner and I'd never leave it on never mind want to keep looking at it! I reckon to many it has the same function as their car horn, there to prove they own one, take them off please!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 02:03 PM

Hmmm, Richard Thompson was on UK television last night (Later with Jools Holland) and kept his tuner attached whilst playing.

But you are all better guitarists than him, of course...

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 02:15 PM

My guitar, capo and tuner are tools of my trade, and I like to have 'em where I can get at them - as close as possible. The headstock is perfect for tuner and guitar. Would a blind audience notice?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 02:44 PM

Some guitarists on YouTube have taken to attaching a small camcorder to the headstock - pointing down the fretboard so that their finger action can be captured on video.

Mmm... I think I'll get one and link it to a large monitor facing the audience, so everyone can see what my old fingers get up to.

Tuners? Tuners schmooners - camcorders for everyone... :-)

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 04:09 PM

IMO, if having or not having a tuner or capo affixed to one's guitar makes a jot or tittle's difference to the performance, it's likely the performer is in the wrong line of work and/or the audience is really screwed up.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Hesk
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 04:15 PM

One of the problems with Mudcat is that every conceivable topic seems to have been aired, over and over again. There are, obviously, a number of Catters who rack their brains thinking up new threads. Unfortunately they are often negative, as is this one. Any one taking these seriously would never perform again, as there is nothing that is acceptable, it would seem.
Perhaps it is time to to go back to basics, and just have fun!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: maeve
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 04:27 PM

On the other hand, Andy7 as the OP started with a premise, listened to other posters, changed his views and gracefully so. Nice little thread in many ways. Uncle Len and # had a bit o' fun too. :)

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: BanjoRay
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 07:30 PM

I have the misfortune to be a regular at a session where I seem to be a member of a very small minority who even bother bringing tuners, let alone using them. Now that's a MUCH worse misfortune......

Ray

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 10:38 PM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the real reason for tuners on headstocks: it dramatically decreases the amount of time it takes to tune the instrument between songs. When I'm on stage I'm always very conscious of the ratio of music time to not-music time. Also, almost anything that makes the mechanics of being on stage easier is worth it. It frees one to concentrate on the important things, like the music and the audience.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 10:48 AM

Makes sense.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 12:59 PM

last Guest - why do you tune between songs? Surely its easier to hear that you're in tune or not while you're playing? (except when using high levels of amplification) And if the next person you play with is out of tune with you, and you both use tuners, then the tuners are at fault. So the question is - how do you ensure your tuner is in tune with everybody elses?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 01:12 PM

ripov, why do you tune between songs, you may be changing from standard to some other

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 01:14 PM

"Surely its easier to hear that you're in tune or not while you're playing? (except when using high levels of amplification) ".. eh...???

If your guitar goes out of tune playing through a good sized decent powered amp... you and everyone else in the venue will immediately know about it...

There's nowhere to hide !!!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST, DTM
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 02:00 PM

Two points-
1) Leaving the tuner on when not in use surely reduces battery life expectancy.
2) Leaving tuners clipped to the stock eventually will weaken the spring (thereby the grip) so that the resonance will be harder to pick up by the tuner.

Bottom line:
It's your tuner. Do what you want with it. I don't care.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 04:22 PM

$14.99

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 04:23 PM

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 04:35 PM

Good Soldier Schweik ; ok, good point re scordatura.

punkfolkrocker ; I was thinking of playing in a group. Yes if you were solo you would hear immediately if you were out of tune, amplified or not. But would you wait till the end before retuning, unless it was impossible to find time to tweak the peg?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 05:05 PM

depends...

When our band was playing regularly, I gigged with electric mandos & 6 + 12 string solid body electric guitars

I used a tuner with a mute foot switch for silent tuning.

If I suddenly went that badly out of tune
eg, another band member accidentally colliding with my guitar's machine heads.
Then just hit the mute switch during a part of a verse or chorus
when no one will notice if you drop out from playing
for a fraction of a minute..

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: PHJim
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 07:42 PM

Maybe a true story, maybe an urban legend:

When Herb Ellis was playing with Glen Gray's Casa Loma Orchestra, he was once criticized by Gray for constantly touching up his tuning.

Gray said, "I saw Andre Segovia play a whole evening and he didn't have to retune once."

Herb replied, "Well, some cats just don't care."

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Hamish
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 05:20 AM

I might use three or four different tunings in a set. I don't have several decent guitars nor a guitar-tech so often have to retune during a set on multiple occasions. Of course I'm going to keep it attached during the set. But I do switch it off.

Before the days of electronic tuners, I'd construct a set to start in standard tuning and get progressively towards an open chord (cos it's easier to do by ear in that order) e.g. standard > drop D > double drop D > DADGAD > open D. Then in the interval retune to standard and perhaps end in open G.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 05:55 AM

Hamish, spot on.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Young Buchan
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 11:21 AM

The correct sequence is this:

Tune the guitar(optional)
Remove the tuner
Replace guitar carefully in case
Perform song whilst holding tuner firmly in hand.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,who likes to be in tune
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 11:23 AM

ripov,
last Guest - why do you tune between songs? Surely its easier to hear that you're in tune or not while you're playing? (except when using high levels of amplification) And if the next person you play with is out of tune with you, and you both use tuners, then the tuners are at fault. So the question is - how do you ensure your tuner is in tune with everybody elses?

I don't think I entirely understand your question, but I'll give it a go.

1. I don't tune between every song. But I probably should. The guitar goes very slightly out of tune in the course of playing a song.

2. I use a capo a lot. When going from open strings to having a capo on the 5th or 7th fret, the bass strings go slightly sharp. A quick touch-up of a string or two takes almost no time if I don't have to fumble around picking up my tuner. Most performance situations I'm in are noisy enough that trying to tune by ear is ill-advised.

3. I occasionally tweak a string that's way out in the middle of a tune, but since I'm the sole accompaniment the music dies if I stop playing. I can do a spontaneous arrangement change and make a space for me to tune in if I need to, but since I tune my guitar and cittern pretty regularly between songs, they are rarely all that far out of tune.

4. Everyone I play with except fiddle players use tuners. We're always in tune with each other -- there's never a problem with tuners being out of tune with each other. Fiddlers usually get an A from another instrument and then tune the instrument to itself. Most are pretty good at doing that very quickly.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 11:29 AM

I bought a fancy Korg poly tuner in the black friday sales,
Excellent discounted bargain -
but have never used it because I can't remember where I put the box just as soon as it was delivered.

It's a big chunky metal tuner that's supposed to show simultaneously how far out of tune all six strings are..

Apparently the same technology has now been shrunk down into headstock tuners...???

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 12:53 PM

I'm starting a non-profit "Free the Tuner Organization" in Canada. If anyone wants to represent the FTO in a specific country please respond here because we don't intend to have a website until 2093. We have taken our modus operandi from a mixture of various things so well known there's no use naming them. No membership fees, no oaths to take, no meetings, no minutes of meetings, no committees to join, no deadlines. If this sounds like your kind of group, then we have accomplished our goal and the organization can now fold.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 05:00 AM

No.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 05:01 AM

Can't.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM

Won't.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 05:03 AM

Stamping feet! ONE HUNDRED!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 07:19 AM

I hope there is not a "stop mics fixed to glasses for recording gigs" organisation - it's very important to have mics as far away from the feet of potential foottappers as possible!!!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Lanfranc sans cookie
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 09:22 AM

One thing that frustrates me as a self confessed guitar nerd about permanently clipped on tuners is that they obscure the maker's name on the headstock. I have seen numerous Martins with a foil headstock decal that has been worn away by the tuner. May I commend the Planet Waves micro tuner which can be attached so as to be read from behind the headstock? Much more discreet.

Alan

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 09:38 AM

Hmmmm - doesn't work very well that way on any of my Martins, because:-

a) The machines obstruct the placing of the PW Micro, i.e.there is insufficient room to place the PW Micro and rotate it so that you can read the (very small) display, because of the proximity of the D and G machines to the end of the headstock and the restricted space between them. In other words, the Micro doesn't fit very well in the restricted space at the back of the headstock.

b) When tuning the guitar, your hand blocks the view of the PW Micro.

And anyway, even if you place the tuner at the back of the headstock, the 'rear' arm of the clip still covers part of the headstock decal.

I have a D-18, an HD-28V and an OM-28 Marquis, and the above is true on all three.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Lanfranc the cookieless
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 12:12 PM

It works fine on my '68 D-18, my Brook Tavy and my Tanglewood parlour. My Alvarez guitars all have built in tuners.

The trick I find is to locate the PW micro between the 1st string tuner and the nut with the display underneath the headstock and angled toward you. No interference with the decal and even my podgy hands don't get in the way when tuning. The display is small, but as long as I wear my glasses ...

Comment invited.

Alan

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 12:32 PM

Yes, Alan, it works fine on the end of the headstock of my Lowden, which has a greater distance between the D/G tuners and the tip of the headstock.

It doesn't work for me in the position you suggest because, when I'm playing out, I use two guitars and the Hercules stands with the opening and closing jaws. The tuner in that position fouls the jaws, and the guitar won't hang.

It's a shame really, the Micro is a neat, accurate little tuner, if only I could work out a position to place it that works for me!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 01:30 PM

Hi

Being one of the "older Brigade" most of my performances were before electronic tuners came out.

I have used them and found them to be very useful as my hearing deteriorated.

I keep mine firmly fixed to my guitar and am not bothered about doing so. During a performance guitar strings can ( and do ) go out of tune.
I find the device aids my speed in re-tuning quickly and it helps me not to have to do the embarrassing and boring ( for the audience ) tuning and re-tuning.

Many of today's performers use them to a greater or smaller effect.

As other people here have pointed out we come to watch and listen to the music. For me, I don't really notice the tuners. Certainly they do not detrimentally impact on my enjoyment.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 02:07 PM

I have seen numerous Martins with a foil headstock decal that has been worn away by the tuner.

I thoroughly approve of obliterating brand names.

Can somebody persuade people wearing t-shirts with huge logos that they need to keep them in tune?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 12:50 PM

I like your point about the t-shirts, Jack. I think musicians should try to eliminate visual distractions. People have a hard enough time listening rather than looking.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 01:29 PM

Seems that scantily-clad young lady is facing the same conundrum.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:15 PM

she needs to make sure that the guitar strings do not cause a leakage of silicon from busts

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:20 PM

Too true. Also, playing slide guitar will be a real sonuvagun.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: PHJim
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 07:36 PM

Hey GUEST,#, I didn't notice a tuner on the head of her guitar.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 07:49 PM

I thought that's what she was holding in her right hand. Honest.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 01:31 AM

Mudcat is predominantly negative. I wore my tuner last night.

Get a life!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 02:51 AM

Guitarists, whatever you decide to do with tuners, please DON'T refrain from tuning. It hurts to try to sing with an out-of-tune guitar.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Brakn
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 02:55 AM

Threads about tuners? Nah.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 04:49 AM

Regarding the young lady, I would refer to Rule 34 and possibly wetriffs.com

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 06:21 AM

That young lady could tune to her G string, if she were wearing one.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 06:38 AM

That photo - I think I'm reaching an age now where I noticed the guitar first.... 😬


.. and neither the guitar, or the woman with grotesque fake enhancements look all that truly desirable...

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 08:31 AM

My deepest sympathies, pfr.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 08:34 AM

Try her with a piano accordion?

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 04:55 AM

Or cymbals!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:08 AM

Two excellent suggestions. If she plays piano accordian and cymbals simultaneously it will obviate the tuner problem. Eureka.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 05:12 AM

Apologies if this tuner has been posted but
1) You can't see it
2) It can't be removed
3) It was in tune when he bought it!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Andy7
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 08:26 PM

"On the other hand, Andy7 as the OP started with a premise, listened to other posters, changed his views and gracefully so. Nice little thread in many ways"
Thank you, Maeve! I only just came across your post.

Btw, I'm not trying to restart this topic, I think we more or less covered it from every angle.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,R oger Knowles
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 07:38 PM

Seamus Kennedy says it for me.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 01:05 PM

When I was a sprog, many years ago, I spent hours and hours tuning. In my first band, with cheap guitars, inferior machine heads and a bunch of egos, most than half the time allotted for learning new material would be spent on tuning, at which point the drummer would decide he had a problem. All tuners are good, headstock ones even more so.
Especially as I could never afford to pay a Maple Byrne.

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 06:04 PM

I'm pleased to report that all guitar playing floor spot performers had tuners fixed to their guitars last night at Croydon Folk Club - before a superb performance by Coope, Boyes & Simpson of their In Flanders Fields show!

Subject: RE: please take off those tuners!
From: GUEST,Guest Billj
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 11:09 PM

Really? That's what's got your knickers in a knot? I have some stable guitars and some that slide out of tune a little easier. When I'm playing with someone else I want to stay in tune so the harmonies are crisp. I've had a guitar go out of tune in the middle of a song, temperature, humidity, tuners aren't tight, string wasn't installed quite right or wasn't stretched, who knows why. It's easier and less painful for the audience to just turn that tuner on and tweak the offending string. Worry about something more earth shattering, like why some people play Elk River Blues in 4/4 all the way through.