BS: Piggate

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 12:02 PM

We all know someone who regularly changes the goal posts don't we. Except Keith.

How do you know this Dave, if you are not just referring to your little gang.
You can nmot even give a single example of the behaviour you complained of.
What is it all about Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 11:56 AM

Dave, the only goal post moving you referred to was "The centre now occupies the space that right of centre occupied not many years ago."

Are you saying it goes on in Mudcat too, or not.
If it is, please give an example.
If you can't, it looks like an entirely spurious claim.
Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 11:01 AM

Hi Raggy, of course political parties follow the people - what the hell did you think created "New Labour"? Up until it's creation Labour had proved to be unelectable.

Under Corbyn it will prove to be equally unelectable.

Interesting statistics - ~9.3 million voters voted Labour at the last General Election (a number insufficient to win) only ~250,000 voted in the Labour leadership election of which ~150,000 voted for Corbyn - his supposed mandate comes from a tiny minority posing as a majority.

How do "the people" form their views and opinions? Don't know about them or about you Raggy but rather than have any political party staffed to the gills by people who have never actually worked a day of their lives in the real world tell me what to think I tend to inform myself as best I can, apply commonsense, try to look further forward than the length of my nose , then make up my own mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 10:59 AM

There are some arseholes who just can't help themselves but I won't mention any names of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 10:57 AM

Leave me outta this, Keith. I did allow you to remain nameless. Be fair. Now where's that bloody Geoffrey Wheatcroft thread. It was all goalposts and no football field...

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 10:52 AM

I provided an example of moving goal posts in the post you are talking about. In the light of your denial my original statement seems incorrect. I shall change my statement.

We all know someone who regularly changes the goal posts don't we. Except Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 10:51 AM

Steve, I am not nameless.
Can you provide examples of the goal moving behaviour.

When Dave said "we" was he just referring to a gang or clique of Mudcatters, and not all?

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 10:47 AM

OK Dave, then please give an example of this goalpost moving behaviour.
Rag, you may know who it is but I do not, which shows that Dave's assertion, that you supported, is wrong.

"We all know someone who regularly changes the goal posts don't we."
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 10:45 AM

OK, I'll compromise. How's about this: Keith, you shall remain nameless.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 10:29 AM

Sort of like this of Facebook.

I have liked it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 09:49 AM

and why not name them?

Because the moderators recommend that we do not name names. I thought you know that?

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 08:35 AM

Dave put forward a proposition, I indicated I agreed with his proposition.

That should not concern you.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 08:21 AM

Dave and Rag, you say "We all know someone who regularly changes the goal posts don't we."
I do not.
Please give an example of that behaviour, and why not name them?

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:08 AM

Talking about abstracts here gnome.

Indeed. Glad you were clever enough to spot that. I presume that also mean that everyone else talking about left, right and centre are talking abstracts as well?

no "obvious trick by the right" at all.

You did disappoint me with that one though. If tailoring their manifestos to suit the centre is not an obvious trick then I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:01 AM

How do the people form their stance on issues.?

they ask themselves, would i want this man shagging my pig?

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:56 AM

So the Political Parties follow the people, not the people the Political Parties. Interesting thought.

How do the people form their stance on issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:41 AM

"The centre now occupies the space that right of centre occupied not many years ago. Changing the goal posts does not make the right wing any less right wing but it does make the left seem more extreme. A very obvious trick by the right to stay in power. We all know someone who regularly changes the goal posts don't we..."

Talking about abstracts here gnome. What the "centre" you refer to here represents is what could be described are the political views and opinions that would appeal to the majority of the electorate and as such is the target for any and every political party that seeks power through the ballot box - the centre as such does not move the political parties seeking election shift their stance and tailor their manifestos accordingly. As the largest and fastest growing social class across the entire planet is the middle-class then it should come as a surprise to no-one that political opinion has drifted the way it has - no "obvious trick by the right" at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:14 AM

Fabulous Thank You.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM

Nice to see you back, Raggy. Have a good time?

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:05 AM

Yes...

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 11:16 AM

No.....

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:55 AM

It is all comparative. The centre now occupies the space that right of centre occupied not many years ago. Changing the goal posts does not make the right wing any less right wing but it does make the left seem more extreme. A very obvious trick by the right to stay in power. We all know someone who regularly changes the goal posts don't we...

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:52 AM

mods - it's happened again... I posted and it froze and hung for bloody ages..
I reopened mudcat 'home', then this thread again.. and it had still not posted

so I had time to tidy up some spelling, try to post again..

then find both posts had been recognised..

some odd delay / latency in the system somewhere.. ???

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:47 AM

see... as far as I can remember my understanding of politics developed from my mid teens
over 10 - 15 years of rigorous intense comparative critical analysis of the full spectrum of right/centre/left 'ideologies'...

On balance I, as many of my contemporaries, found more value in ideas & possibilities from centre to left...


Now I'm in my late 50s and battered and wearied from all life's shite..

My politics are based far more on experience [mostly negative]...

It's all about striving to achieve a sensible balance of opinions and priorities...

Some of you might be surprised how easily I can reconcile my 'leftist' views on socio economics
and trade unions & nationalisation,
with my somewhat less forgiving 'rightist' views on law 'n' order -
particularly regarding street corner drug dealers, drunk drivers,
publicans who don't serve their cider fresh,
and full grown men who ride their bicycles on public pavements...

Now that does bring out the flog 'em and hang 'em baser baser instincts of my human nature..... 😜


btw.. left or right it's only 'human nature' to take the piss out of twattish crude stereotypes of the opposition...

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:46 AM

see... as far as I can remember my understanding of politics developed from my mid teens
over 10 - 15 years of rigorous intense comparative critical analysis of the full spectrum of right/centre/left 'ideologies'...

On balance I, as many of my contemporaries, found more value in ideas & possibilities from centre to left...


Now I'm in my late 50s and battered and wearied from all life's shite..

My politics are based far more on experience [mostly negative]...

It's all about striving to achieve a sensible balance of opinions and priorities...

Some of you might be surprised how easily I can reconcile my 'leftist' views on socio economics
and trade unions & nationalisatin,
with my somewhat less forgiving 'rightist' views on law 'n' order -
particularly regarding street corner drug dealers, drunk drivers,
publicans who don't serve their cider fresh,
and full grown men who ride their bicycles on public pavements...

Now that does bring out the flog 'em and hang 'em baser baser instincts of my human nature..... 😜


btw.. left or right it's only 'human nature' to take the piss out of twattish crude stereotypes of the opposition...

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:22 AM

Pfr, none of that applies to me.
It does not describe me.

How can I be RW if I hold no RW views?
Just being critical of the Left is not enough.
We on the centre do that too.

There is much anti-left criticism within the Labour Party right now.
That does not make them RW either!

If you need to label someone as RW, produce a RW statement from them.
If you can not do that, ask yourself why.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:21 AM

And equally true pfr as demonstrated in thread after thread on this forum from the Brit contingent:

"Basically, the "socialist" left adhere to beliefs that their perception of how the world should work is the only state of things that can ever be tolerated.

The "socialist" left 'know' their beliefs and values are incontestable, absolutely right, and common sense - irrespective of how many times they are proved to be nothing of the sort.

Therefore it follows, that a bog standard conformist "socialist" would agree that any one else with ideas that diverge from socialist dogma, those who propose ideas for change are the folks who are actually being ideological and politically naive, impractical, or downright dangerously and threateningly right-wing and wrong.....

Oh once again Keith A hits the nail on the head - he and I are classified as being "right wing" not for espousing and advocating right wing views or beliefs but because we tilt at the dafter ideas put forward by the political left.

I am delighted that Corbyn won the election for the leadership of the Labour Party - It more or less guarantees that Labour will be resigned to the opposition benches for as long as he is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 10:06 AM

There you go, KAoH, punkfolkrocker expresses it far more eloquently than I ever could - even if he thinks that his explanation is a bit 'tatty'. That's YOU in a "nutshell" that is, Keith. Perhaps you should winkle out your kernel and hold it up to the light ... errr ... on second thoughts ... keep your kernel where it is and out of the light!

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 09:00 AM

Keith - I'll agree with shimrod, what he states is a fair and accepted appraisal of the normative mindset of conservatism.

If my memory was healthier I could point you to academic sources,
it's frustrating that I might actually still have some textbooks rotting away in the back of the damp musty room downstairs..

Anyway.. I keep harping back to when I was a student 35 years ago...
but the courses I studied provided a very acute understanding of human behaviour, belief systems, and ideology,

Basically, the tory right adhere to beliefs that their perception of how the world does and should work is the natural timeless state of things.
Tories 'know' their beliefs and values are incontestable, absolutely right, and common sense.
Therefore it follows, that a bog standard conformist tory would agree that any one else with ideas that diverge from this natural state,
those who propose ideas for change are the folks who are actually being ideological and politically naive, impractical,
or downright dangerously and threateningly lefty and wrong.....

That's the tory arrogance in a nutshell - why tories can delude themselves that they are apolitical, while all their opponents are deranged utopian ideologues..

Now I'm fairly certain I wrote a far more articulate long essay on such matters back in the 2nd year of my degree,
but unfortunately this tatty explanation is the best I can do off the top of my head right now...

Someone else please take the batton and explain and expand more clearly - I need a strong mug of tea and a banana...

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 08:56 AM

Not right wingers.
Challenging left wing views is a game for those of us at the centre too.

I suppose we all look the same to you from out there on the left.
You imagine that anyone not of the left must be of the right.
In your little world there is no centre view.
Yours is a silly little world indeed.

Will you produce one single right wing view I have ever expressed?
No.
How could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 08:39 AM

"Apparently if I say I am not, that proves that I am!"

It doesn't 'prove' anything. But I tend to agree with 'Guest' above:

"You can tell by the things people actually post, it's not too difficult (for most observers)"

And I know that it's childish, immature etc., etc. but I do like winding right-wingers up!

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 07:19 AM

will someone do a montage for this song for youtube? if you know anyone twould be a great favour
its called
Don't put your willy in the mouth of a pig

https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/dont-put-your-willy-in-the

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 06:25 AM

It clearly is too difficult, because I have never expressed a right wing view but get called right wing.

Apparently if I say I am not, that proves that I am!

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 05:24 AM

You can tell by the things people actually post, it's not too difficult (for most observers)

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM

Shimrod,
As I think I've observed on another thread, Right-wingers always claim to be apolitical - it's a dead give-away!

So, what do apolitical people claim Shim?
How do you tell the difference?

Right-wingers always claim to be apolitical

An assertion based on what?
An equivalent assertion would be "Left wingers can not tell the difference."

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 04:59 AM

well of course - such a wise decent man - so well known for his fair decent regime....

sometimes Terry...!

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 04:49 AM

I somehow believe that the King of Saudi Arabia gives little credence to unsubstantiated rumour and stories and that relations between our two countries would be based on things a damned sight more substantial than personalities - a view coming from observing how the "real" world works Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 27 Sep 15 - 04:28 PM

Stu says:

"From now on everyone who meets Cameron in person will be thinking "you stuck your jake in a pig's mouth, you dirty git".


And this "everyone", will include, for instance, the King of Saudi Arabia. Thats the point, on the world stage, he is toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Sep 15 - 03:58 AM

" ... just for the record I am probably one of the most a-political posters on this forum ..."

As I think I've observed on another thread, Right-wingers always claim to be apolitical - it's a dead give-away!

" ... only too prepared to believe the worst of those they don't like on the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever."

Wasn't Cameron 'shopped' by another Tory? That's, so far, uncorroborated evidence - but evidence all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 11:31 AM

Only when viewed by someone from your biased and intolerant perspective Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 11:18 AM

Blimey. You're a dyed in the wool Tory, Teribus, unless the Pope's a Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 11:11 AM

"the gullible, the ignorant and the biased."

That's me! Woof!


"I am probably one of the most a-political posters on this forum"

You are taking the piss! Knew it.


"never, ever been a member, or supporter, of any political party"

That much is obvious. It might do you some good to get involved in a political party to see how they actually work at grass roots level. In my case as a Young Conservative I couldn't believe what I was seeing some of the time. When we had a socialist to talk the scales dropped from eyes. Tell what though T, it really put me off joining ANY political party for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 10:06 AM

yeah.. there's certainly an interesting added social dynamic to consider in how politics works at the highest levels
if in any meeting or committee,
an elected MP or high ranking civil servant is seated next to his childhood bully/tormentor/abuser....????


At least in our all boys grammar school there were no known rumours of any forced bummings in the showers...!!!??? 😜

Though one of the nastier PE teachers and rugby coaches was later arrested for... shhhh.. and him a married man with children...

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 09:51 AM

If you want to know about Tory mutually assured silence and secrets, I commend to you last Tuesday's extract of the good lord's book of revenge in last Tuesday's Mail. It dealt with the doings of the Chipping Norton set. I mention this again for the benefit of Teribus, who, of all people, will surely believe what he reads in the Mail. Piggy necrophilia doesn't even begin to describe the fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 09:48 AM

Ah but there has been absolute denial - by those who supposedly "ran" the club referred to - no such incident ever took place and no such "initiation test" ever existed. Cameron more than likely on advice from his advisors saw no need to dignify the totally unfounded allegations with any response - leaving such gleeful magpie chatter as can be seen here to the gullible, the ignorant and the biased. Just think Stu if the positions were reversed and you found yourself in the position of the accused and those unsupported allegations were leveled at you, would you rather have someone with your mindset judging you than someone who by nature would demand some substantive proof, like Fred McC or myself?

Oh by the way Stu - just for the record I am probably one of the most a-political posters on this forum and have never, repeat never, ever been a member, or supporter, of any political party - which makes it impossible for me to "swallow" any "party line". Unlike you I have observed in my travels that not one single "socialist" government has ever worked or delivered on its promises, that that great evil "capitalism" allied to democracy has worked a damned sight better than any other alternative, and has lasted far longer - (EXAMPLE: All the refugees fleeing Africa and the Middle-East are headed where Stu? Why aren't they headed for Iran/Russia/China? - Don't struggle too hard with it Stu because I already know the answer).

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 08:43 AM

"That has more to do with all male Public Schools"

yes.. now merely speculation..

but because so many MPs and Ministers went to the same elite schools;
irrespective of party membership or professed adult sexulality
there's probably many an open secret and mutual assured silence about who wanked who off or more
after lights out in the dorms....???

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: GUEST,porkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 08:28 AM

"It doesn't matter whether it is true or not. The accusation has been made and it will not go away.
The damage is done and most people will inevitably wonder whether he did or not."


yes.. there's no smoky bacon without fire....😜

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 07:20 AM

Not so, Teribus. It doesn't matter whether it is true or not. The accusation has been made and it will not go away. The damage is done and most people will inevitably wonder whether he did or not. Hopefully something will come of it and the Tories, who are past masters of the art, will realise what a two edged sword scurrilous claims can be. If it results in clipping the wings of their press lapdogs (excuse the mixed metaphors) that can only be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 07:19 AM

The evidence is there or Cameron's spinners and pads believe it might be, hence no absolute denial. The chatter around the Westminster bubble as leaked onto pro-tory sites such as order-order.com make it clear pretty much everyone believes it. Truth is, they don't care what hayseeds like you or I think and I think the tories, generally are uncompassionate, easily brought, unintelligent, idealogically-driven, establishment twats. There are exceptions I suppose, but they're not in cabinet and they're not my Tory MP, who cannot grasp what "evidence-based policy making" even means. Mind you, he's not alone there, that's another tory trait.

As for Dave being nasty, well Tezza it appears you'd follow the party line whatever they told you but my personal experience of the tory party as a young conservative over 30 years ago tells me not to trust the buggers.

Thing is, I still can't tell after all these years whether you actually totally unquestioning as appears and truly believe all this twaddle they you or are taking the piss.

Subject: RE: BS: Piggate
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 06:42 AM

Ehmmm No Stu - only everyone like you, who are only too prepared to believe the worst of those they don't like on the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

In so doing you only succeed in making decent human beings think that you yourself are "a right nasty, vindictive, over-confident, thick tw*t".