BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:15 AM

Last Tuesday programme was called "girls to Men" and has met with various hostility from the trans community due to the lack of proper langauge, pronoun useage and using film that was 'stolen' off youtube without the owners consent and put in the film.

The overall idea of the programme seemed sound but the stereotyping of people and language was very apparent, which was a major distraction to what could have been a much better educational attempt. Sadly some people witll still be no better enlightened and carry on using the 'bad' language in the programme.

Trans people seldom argue they go from being a man to a girl or a girl to a man. They ARE identified as being something they are not, based on genitalia, when born which sends them certain pathways of conformity in early life. The programme sadly placed too much emphasis on genitals and surgery being a 'target' to become the correct gender. It simply is not the case.

The last programme in this series appears to be based in America (a kind of trans camp where children can just be who they want to be) and is screened on Tuesday night on Channel 4, 10.00PM

Fingers crossed that better care is takien in both representation and fact!

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 05:31 PM

thread drift......what is this about anyway?

preserving gender... you can't pickle it like gherkins or walnuts.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:46 PM

Continuing thread drift.......postman pat, postman pat, postman pat ran over his cat.       Blood and guts went flying, postman pat was crying.    Ever seen a cat as flat as that...

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 01:50 PM

Let me say I prefer the silent picture version! ;)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 12:42 PM

As it's Saturday I'll verge a bit on the crude & dodgy side...

That image links to a version of the song that goes something like..

"Post-op Pat, Post-op Pat, Post-op Pat and his brand new twat..."

Which is why I was hesitant about posting it.

Now.. I don't know if there is any more to that version of the song,
or if that's all there is...??

But as this is a folk song site.. somebody amongst us lot [Big Al ???]
could be more than capable of knocking out a funny rude positive parody version..???

"Post-op Pat, Post-op Pat, Post-op Pat and her brand new twat..."...?????

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 09:02 AM

@ GUEST @ 08 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

My apologies. I have been busy and not got back to this until now

Your link (and many more like it) point almost certainly as can be of some genetic and hormonal modelling that may be affected by environment. I touched on epigenetics below (or above depending how you read the pages) as it promises much explanation if not a complete answer to so many traits that humans have and express as well as sexuality and gender.

Thank you for posting it up

@ punfolkrocker

I so tittered when I saw your cartoon. My poor daughter loved Postman Pat as he was but am sure she would accept Postess Pat too quite happily. I suspect Jess will be happy no matter who feeds her ;)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

Some current findings on the nature vs nurture debate regarding sexual orientation:

Researchers Find Link Between DNA Marks And Sexual Orientation

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

Sorry about the double post, I get impatient with the slowest computer in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:07 PM

Madame likes it.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:07 PM

Madame likes it.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:32 PM

sorry.. I've been struggling against my better judgement for three days
but the inner immature pillock in me has won the battle....

Whatever the intent behind this image was - good or bad..
I just can't help finding it charmingly amusing...

And the earworm melody from the bloody song has been driving me completely nuts... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:04 PM

@ ellen V

You know ellen I walk around these days and am facinated at just how much things have changed. It is almost surreal. I now have an office on a street my Mum used to walk me as a little boy holding my hand, taking me to get a new tractor (I loved diggers and still do love watching them!). I walk those same pavements now as a woman, and see how far the path is I have travelled. Many are no longer on the path with me - their choice and I do not blame them - while others remain steadfast and loving.

45 years ago, when I was in the RAF, if I had ever been found out to be as I am I would have been arrested, dishonourable discharged and put in military prison. Not so these days where we have trans soldiers, sailors and airmen.

There are still prejudices. You can make laws but some people's behaviour will not be changed. However, most people seem to embrace this seachange of feelings and open respect for others who live different lives. I am most grateful for that opportunity and put back what I can when I can. It is so easier to give when you are whole :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:56 AM

@ Jim C

Ah, Jim :(

I know a great many gay folk that could tell similar stories. They made great parents and, most of them, their children have done well and still accept them. Lavender marriages are certainly no stranger to these shores, as it offered protection to both partners in 'seeming normal' to those ho would frown about them or worse. I know some great gay parents and it is extremely common these days for women to eventually come out late in life as gay and live with a woman once the children have flown the nest. I also know some remarkably unselfish partners who have know 'the secret' and made no demands. A gay man and a gay woman who love each other emotionally but not physically is not unusual these days.

So many trans folk are forced to comply and lead an exaggerated life in order to try and fit in but, eventually, the genie cannot be kept in the bottle any longer or suicide ensues. Even being trans can lead to a very early violent death (as being gay can too). All because people cannot live and let live.

I hate hate :(

But I also know the greatness of those beautiful folk who support and accept, love and care. It's not all bad news thanfully.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:35 AM

I watched the programme with someone who said 'I wish it had been like that for me when I was a child."

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:30 AM

"When the parent of a child who is transgender force them to behave as if they weren't,"
Don't know if anybody saw the (perhaps repeat of the) programme honouring outstanding individuals of the latter half of the 290th century.
The example that sticks in my mind is of the now elderly man who discovered he was gay at an early age and was told by his parents to pull himself together and behave like a man.
He married and raised a family and when they grew up and left home, and when his wife passed away, 'came out'.
Now well into his 80s, he is one of the leading figures in the Gay Pride movement on the South coast of England.   
Talk about oppression - and sacrifice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:36 AM

Here is a copy of the poem little Paddy's Mum read out to her in the programme...

Mother's Inspiring Poem


The poem makes much more insightful reading if you saw the programme but is, nevrtheless, still quite beautiful

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 06:44 PM

I hear you Pete fssl. Complex indeed but at least not as hidden and more out in the open where hope can remain viable :)   I feel for all involved, truly I do

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 03:02 PM

I watched most of it and it is certainly a difficult situation for all concerned and I don't want to say anymore than that. There are a lot of uncertainties involved and challenges all round.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 11:33 AM

Just got through watching the programme and it was a far better standard than the title. It was quite touching. What it did show is also the effects that a loving family can have when support is in place. I have a great deal of admiration for the parents and their other children too. Well done on a good programme and good luck to the families involved... each individual :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 08:50 AM

To mine too!

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 08:27 AM

When the parent of a child who is transgender force them to behave as if they weren't, the parents are clearly manipulative or psychologically abusive. See Leela Alkorn. Welcome on board.

That is so subtle as to be sublime :) Ellen you brought a big smile to my face

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 08:23 AM

Absolutely Ak. When the parent of a child who is transgender force them to behave as if they weren't, the parents are clearly manipulative or psychologically abusive. See Leela Alkorn. Welcome on board.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM

Kid is not an Americanism. The use of the word for child predates Christopher Columbus by several hundred years. Don't always believe what you believe.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 06:37 AM

I think you are looking at the wrong thread, ake. Try the pope in America one. I think you are becoming confused and need a good rest. Keith did not mention anything in a PM but in a thread. You mentioned it in a PM but, like you, I will not reprint anything sent in confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 06:03 AM

In Scotland, we still use the word "wean" for small children I like it, it's natural sounding and comforting to wee ones.

I of course don't object to "kids" which I believe is an Americanism.
I do object for infant boys or girls being referred to as the opposite gender, this shows the parents to be manipulative or psychologically abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 05:43 AM

Sorry admin, I have just noticed the offending comments have been removed, please feel free to remove my response as it now seems out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 03:19 AM

I never reprint or comment on PMs.....from anyone, unless criminally abusive.    It is common knowledge that my wife is very unwell I mentioned it in a pervious thread over a year ago, you were involved in that thread.

If Keith did mention it in a PM, I'm sure that it was with the best intentions, though I would rather that he did not.
I consider you a troll and your condescending attitude reinforces that opinion, you had no need to mention the matter at all.

My wife's condition has absolutely no bearing on anything I write here or any opinions I may put forward.

I advised you to "put your opinions clearly and I would do the same."

That is all that I require from you.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 07:12 PM

I agree that we should all keep up and try to be sensitive about our use of words. I think there are some informal contexts in which "kids" is sort of all right. Most of the families with, er, children that grew up with our children called theirs and ours kids. I do share your dislike of that expression used for the programme title, though. Catchiness bordering on the offensive can jar.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 05:38 PM

I am not sure if it will forward the discussion or understanding both of situations and the language, but there is a programme on UK televison tomorrow night (Tuesday) at 10pm on Channel 4 called "Transgender Kid"

I am not a great lover of the word "transgender" to be honest, nor "kid". Transgender is a bin word that includes widely disparate types of people and situations. It does not great justice in my experience as all get 'binned together' and yet are extremely different.

I like children to be called children because that is what they are and I think they deserve the privelige of their label for as long as they can keep it.

The programme, words aside, has potential. I have seen other channel 4 programmes to do with transsexuality, racism, disability, etc., that have presented quite balanced views. I hope this is not different. Sensationalism is never fair on the the subject being sensationalised. Rational presentation of facts is a good way forward.

The whole language around gender is evolving rapidly, because as research shows and explains many changes, the subject evolves. Gender is far from simple and is not quite the social construct many would believe it is. It goes much deeper, as does sexuality, and in some cases is even 'fluid' for some.

I hope the programme helps answer some things for any with an honest curiosity on the subject. I just saw it and thought to post. I will be recording it as I am out singing tomorrow night.

Thank you good people too for your good wishes I have received. You know who you are :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 04:24 AM

"a group that was granted a meeting because of the Pope's "usual kindness and availability".
I am aware that the Vatican is now distancing itself from the incident - it has been reported here (Ireland) as fact and up to now has not been questioned.
The story they are circulating doesn't ring quite true as one thing the Pope did dot have on his trip was "availability" see Reuter article
REUTERS
Either could be true, but given the Church's approach to issues such as Gay Marriage and pregnancy termination (yet another scandal concerning a rape victim here), they have a greaty deal of ground to cover to reach even the middle of the 20th century on these matters.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 03:45 AM

Well, that has shone a new light on what has been happening here jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:16 PM

Thanks, Steve. Don't know how I missed her post, but I did.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:54 PM

I did mean Ellen, Jeri, but I endorse what Ebbie said too.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:37 PM

"Come in, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò. I have a nice little parish you can look after: Craggy Island, I think it's called."

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:35 PM

Steve, I think you meant "Ebbie"?
Thank you for understanding what I meant.

As for debate, there are some things I might care to debate, and some people I would care to debate with. Quite a while ago, I realized that debating with people who were entrenched in their beliefs and refused to acknowledge any evidence that didn't support their opinions, was time wasting and pointless. So no, I won't bite that bait.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:27 PM

Yeah, apparently the Pope and the Vatican weren't happy about being used by Davis. Story

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:13 PM

Well said, Ellen.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 04:43 PM

Jim Carroll, note that the Vatican, through a spokesman, denies that there was an individual meeting between the Pope and Davis, and says that she was in a group that was granted a meeting because of the Pope's "usual kindness and availability".

Methinks Davis's lawyer, Staver, is beyond credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 04:27 PM

Oh Ak, have you read nothing? Gender and sexuality are not the same thing. Children may be unaware of their sexuality until puberty but they are well aware of their gender - and well aware when something is horribly wrong. But perhaps you think transpeople are lying when they say they knew from earliest childhood that their gender identities don't match their bodies. If you allow a child to live a life which accords with their identity they will have a happy childhood. The abuse is forcing and bullying a child to conform to what others think they should be rather than what they know themselves to be.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 04:23 PM

MP could you please explain where I said anything illegal.
You make stuff up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 04:15 PM

Jeri, my remarks were not initially directed at M P, she jumped in and decided to take offence where none was intended.

My remarks were on a related subject. As I have made clear many times, what she wishes to call herself is absolutely no concern of mine.

RIGHT and WRONG don't come into this particular discussion, as MP and I are talking about two different things.
If you think I am wrong about the manipulation of small children, I am more than happy to debate the topic thrown up by my link.

My point is that infants and small children should not be encouraged to question their sexuality. Childhood should be a time of adventure and excitement.....my own childhood and that of my friends was almost idyllic, though we were all as poor as church mice.

We were never forced to confront problems which we could not possibly understand.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:30 PM

Incidentally
Were people aware that the 'liberal' Pope, on his recent visit to The U.S., congratulated the registration clerk who refused to issue same sex marriage licences and was jailed for the same, and encouraged her to carry on with her crusade.
Tourists get away with murder while they're on holiday nowadays - it's the same in Faliraki, I believe!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:24 PM

"anyone's bollocks dropped off yet with the chemicals?"
We.....lllll
World War two hero, Alan Turing's (the man who cracked the Enigma Code) where 'helped off', thanks to some of the enlightenment on display here.
Jim Carroll

Homosexuality, Conviction and Death
Homosexuality was illegal in the United Kingdom in the early 1950s, so when Turing admitted to police—who he called to his house after a break-in—in January, 1952, that he had had a sexual relationship with the perpetrator, 19-year-old Arnold Murray, he was charged with gross indecency. Following his arrest, Turing was forced to choose between temporary probation on the condition that he receive hormonal treatment for libido reduction, or imprisonment. He chose the former, and soon underwent chemical castration through injections of a synthetic estrogen hormone for a year, which eventually rendered him impotent.
As a result of his conviction, Turing's security clearance was removed and he was barred from continuing his work with cryptography at the GCCS, which had become the GCHQ in 1946.
Turing died on June 7, 1954. Following a postmortem exam, it was determined that the cause of death was cyanide poisoning. The remains of an apple were found next to the body, though no apple parts were found in his stomach. The autopsy reported that "four ounces of fluid which smelled strongly of bitter almonds, as does a solution of cyanide" was found in the stomach. Trace smell of bitter almonds was also reported in vital organs. The autopsy concluded that the cause of death was asphyxia due to cyanide poisoning and ruled a suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:16 PM

I liked your 09.47 post very much, Jeri. It was crystal clear to me, but it don't think akenaton got it.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:12 PM

"diffuse things" errr... of course I meant "defuse"...

the pollutants are probably first effecting my eye balls...... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:03 PM

anyone's bollocks dropped off yet with the chemicals?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 02:47 PM

It has become obvious that the usual suspects wish to close this thread as they do so many that proves that they are both wrong and in the minority. Don't worry. Their time is at an end. The new enlightened time is ahead of us thankfully. Keep plugging the new order, MP and friends. The dinosaurs have not long left to go :-)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 02:25 PM

@ punkfolkrocker

I am waiting and looking forward very much to seeing it. As I mentioned in a thread yesterday, it was gay folk (including trans and dragkings) that started the whole PRIDE thing off after the Stonewall riots. In the case of the film you mention I think it reflects that LGB & T folk have just as much a social conscience as 'normal' (whatever that is) left wing or liberal folk do

I have know several gay miners (now most have died of mine related illness NOT AIDS as some would have say) and they lived in great fear of being found out back then. One man I know who goes to a club I sing at was imprisoned for being gay at one spell and he was in a long term relations with him partner (who recently dies after them being together for 35 years!). Thank heavens people are willing to stand up and be heard eh?

:)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 02:15 PM

vain attept to diffuse things a bit...

Anyone seen the recent movie "Pride" - about socialist gay activists fund raising for the miner's strike.

A bit of a corny feel good entertainment, but that's what it set out to do, and achieves it very well.

It's like a BBC historical costume drama.. ermmm..set in the mid 1980s.. Donkey Jackets..

I definitely enjoyed the nostalgia of the reasonably authentic sense of era,
when me and my mates were students involved in all that sort of thing...

Folks here might despise suchlike..
but old lefty class warriors with somewhat dinosaur attitudes to feminists & gays
were common enough fixtures for anyone familiar with socialist worker and morning star way back then....

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 02:07 PM

Pharoah and Professor Kieth are not worth the effort of attempting to engage them in rational discourse.

Resist the urge; That way lies madness (or at the very least, a migraine.
)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM

Ake, I think you're wrong, too.
And FOR THE RECORD, I was definitely NOT talking about EV, mauvepink, or anyone trying to explain what being trans is like when I talked about people who enjoyed being angry.

It just doesn't do any good to say it over and over when you're never going to question what you believe you know, never going to accept fact that don't agree with your opinion. And the defensiveness is inexplicably explosive.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM

I never saw jeri actually telling me to "grow up" but if that is what they meant so be it. I also never threatened you. I pointed out, in FACT, that it was not a threat but there to educate you as to the real law. Not your law but the law of the land (in your case, Scotland I believe).

The thread never was about me and my replies have been in defence of it being said I am "he/she" and needing to clarify my staus. It was you who was asking for special conditions being put on my ability to take part in topics on this forum. You were and are clearly in the wrong, which I pointed out, and you may no doubt go on and act the victim because someone has dared answer you back in a way you cannot comprehend.

Anyway, whether jeri is telling me to grow up or not is for them to make clearer to me. I accepted your word earlier and said I would let it lie and yet you continue this "woe is you" because I dared answr back. Say as you will. You do anyway. Others are free to tell me themselves without you pointing it out.

Talking of disingenuity: trying to recruit moderators to your side to stick up for you will still not make what you said legal. They can shut the thread and they can ban me. The law will remain unchanged.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

Contemptible.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

(Sigh) We try, and we go on trying. Akenaton, who believes that AIDS can be wiped out if gay people aren't allowed to marry, expresses his opinion and people try, try and try again to explain to him. It's been going on for years. We must feel that somewhere inside the apparent prejudice and truly bonkers logic there is someone who is hurting and needs help.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:11 PM

MP, let ME put YOU right.
I have committed no CRIME on this or any other thread on Mudcat, never threatened you or anyone else never abused you or libelled you.

This forum or even this thread is not just about YOU.

I make no comment on how you live your life, good luck to you, but understand this....I will never be threatened, browbeaten, or intimidated by people quoting law at me.
YOU have no chance, the tactic has already been tried here by experts, I am still here and they are gone.....thanks to moderators and an owner who understands the meaning of free speech.
You disagree with anything I say, I will gladly debate with you, if I don't have ALL the facts I will give a civil opinion, or express an opinion related to the subject(like the link that I gave) you and the usual subjects jump in desperate to be offended, when there was no intention on my part to do so.

As to the last post by EV it is absolutely contemptible and saying that someone's considered opinion is "simply wrong" does not an argument make.

I think jeri has it about right....grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 11:55 AM

Akenation -
You've said that transgender must be psychological because you know 35 people who have all grown up happy and normal. Do you? If you'd met me (and maybe you did) 15 years ago you would have seen someone happy and normal (and fertile, since you seem to associate have children with being normal and happy). That's what I showed to people. That's how I behaved. Then I decided I could no longer go on living someone else's life and I made some major changes - not the same as Mauvepink, but still major.

As other people have said, you don't know what you are talking about. If you want to, you can find out what transgender means. If you prefer, you can continue in your happy ignorance. That's your choice, as my choice of how I live is mine.

As for your belief that children are forced into pretending to a gender other than their apparent biological gender, you are wrong, desperately wrong. You are wrong about their parents, wrong about them and very damaging.

Sort out your own life, you've given us enough clues over the years. You can't solve your problems by attacking innocent bystanders.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 10:23 AM

I have to say my intent has never been to 'pee anyone off' simply by standing up for myself and for those who are feared of daring say anything because of their sexuality or gender.

You know the saying "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing", by Edmund Burke? Well it applies for women too. When good men stand up for my rights I need not feel so silenced and almost owe it to them, and those unable to defend themselves, to speak up.

I still get scared and I know fear of assault every day of my life but somehow my need to have a life is greater than the fear and, thankfully, to the "good men" (and women) I am extremely grateful :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 09:47 AM

Instead of a thread about gender-based language, this has slipped into a discussion of trans gendered people--still somewhat on-topic. If it goes any further down the bullying/personal attack route, it's not going to last much longer. Subject-based, fine/who-somebody-is-based not fine.
Just a prediction

Ake said "no child was ever put under pressure to address their sexuality in my young days"

Well, yes, assuming we're in about the same generation, we were. You might have missed it because you weren't aware of anything that personally affected YOU.

I was told--and my mother found a fairly objective way to put it--"some people think girls shouldn't climb trees or play with toy trucks or want to be a cowboy". Again, the language. I didn't want to be a cowBOY. I wanted to do what cowboys did and be a girl.

When people start telling you what you should or shouldn't do based on your gender, they ARE putting pressure on you to address your gender--what you probably mean by using the word "sexuality".

I'm probably never going to fully understand trans people because I'm not one. I make mistakes, but I try to listen to people and learn.

What may be a kernel of true evil inside some people is whatever thought process tells them they have the right to tell other people how to live their lives when the greatest harm those other people can do is piss them off. Let those addicted to feeling offended take responsibility for their own living hells.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:41 AM

I think if YOU read carefully Ake you will find I did not mention any name, least of all yours.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:23 AM

Hedgehogs get squashed and birds get hit by vehicles because they have not evolved fast enough to learn to avoid them. Over time the ones who have survived will pass on something that allow more and more to be aware of the environment they now live in.

I think much the same is happening with new ideas and concepts in society. Sexuality and gender, the new research findings and biological basis for such 'phenomena', shall we say, together with new acceptance and legal entitlements are slowly finding their ways into a woder, opem mindset of society at large. Such evolution takes time BUT it is rapidly developing and less random than evolution in the bigger sense.

I am not against folk who have problems understanding new concepts and ideas. Like learning a new song, some need crib sheets and pick it up slower than another would, but in the end the song is learned hopefully and plays a part in wider music scene as it spreads.

I don't understand nor like football. Last night I hated rugby because, after turning up at 7pm for a gig, only to not be able to set up in front of the big screen behind the stage, I had to wait until 9.45 to do it all and hasty sound checks, after the rugby had finished. I respect that others like football and rugby and that is not their fault just because I do not like it. We all still got on well and a good gig was had by all once started.

Acceptance causes far less anxiety for all than enforced tolerance. Times they are a changing ;) lol

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:19 AM

"we are in the process of destroying it."
Those who are forcing children to conform against their natural instincts most certainly are.
"What I am commenting on is the pressurisation of small children to express themselves sexually"
Children are forced to express themselves sexually - and in many, many other ways from the day they were born - in the way they are dressed, in the identity that is forced upon them by what they are taught, shown, given as role models..... all a "ink and blue world" from day one.
Your objection is that same-sex couples do the same (except they don't)
Children are forced into acting unnaturally from birth - by a society that has created 'norms' or right and wrong.
You man never have been honest enough to admit to "hating homosexuals," but you have said yo "pity" them, and you persistently present them as a disease-carrying threat.
What is that, if it is not hatred?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:09 AM

If I don't have to go around declaring my status, why should anyone else? Am I being disingenuous because I'm not actually saying out loud that I am a male heterosexual before I express my opinion on gay marriage? Would you like me to declare my shoe size as well?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:09 AM

I never used ignoramus either

As you are fond of links let me reflect on the CPS handbook for you


In Scotland the law is different
The new law is called the Offences (Aggravation by Prejudice) (Scotland) Act. It will mean that homo/biphobic, transphobic and disability-prejudice crime is properly recognised as hate crime.
This is the first transgender-inclusive hate crime legislation in Europe, and has the most inclusive definition of transgender identity in any European legislation.From tomorrow, any criminal offence which is partly or wholly motivated by prejudice on grounds of disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity, will be dealt with as a hate crime all the way through the system.The offence could for example be an assault, or vandalism, or verbal threats and abuse which can be charged as breach of the peace, or any other crime. If the person committing the offence uses homo/biphobic, transphobic, or disability-prejudice language, or if there is any other evidence of their prejudiced motive, that makes it a hate crime. If anyone witnessing a crime thinks it was a hate crime, the police must record it as a hate incident. If there is any evidence of the hate motive, for example prejudiced language was used, it will be charged as a hate crime. If the person charged is found guilty, the hate motive will be taken into account in sentencing - and the court must
say publicly what difference the hate motive made to the sentence

I put this here in order help you to understand that there are some things you can no longer say to people with protected characteristics. It is not a threat in any way as it's intent is to educate as you were showing ignorance of the law (which is not a defence).

I accept your oversight and will update the screenshots to reflect my acceptance. No disingenuous statements have ever been made by me in regards to my sexuality or gender. Just because I have brought to the fore that I am trans makes no odds to my legal status and it certainly should not make me a target for your derision now or in the future.

I am happy to let sleeping dogs now lie and to get on with the thread :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM

Well MP the he she was because I was unsure of how you wished to be addressed, if you feel offended by that reference, of course I will immediately withdraw it and henceforth you will be referred to as "she".

I would also appreciate the removal of "hater", "bigot" and "ignoramus" in reference to me.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM

Sorry Raggytash but it appears that you are unable to read or comprehend.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM

akenaton said Calm down MP, no one here "hates" you or how you have chosen to live your life.

You have been disingenuous in the past, when arguing on same sex "marriage" in not declaring your status, but that is water under the bridge.

Your continual reference to me as "stupid, ignorant, bigoted etc" are wrong and insulting.
Personally I don't care what you do with your life or whether you want to live it as a man or a woman, I simply have many more important things to address at present

My remarks were addressed to those who wish to manipulate children.

Your remarks made reference to me being "he/she" no matter what the subject of your input. I have never called you stupid and I have referred to your behaviour as ignorant and bigoted which it has been. How have I been disingenuous in the past in not declaring my status? I am female and I am able to marry who I wish jow of either gender if that is what I wanted. I have no need explain any further. No-one else seems to have an issue and none have referred to me or other transfolk in such a way. I do urge you to cease it as I have just taken advice and have done what I need to do in case you get this shut down.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:38 AM

Message received Mauvepink, I wish you a happy and fulfilled life.

As for the hatred which accompanies some posts I for one would be delighted if one of the instigators were taken to court and prosecuted. Not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:37 AM

Calm down MP, no one here "hates" you or how you have chosen to live your life.

You have been disingenuous in the past, when arguing on same sex "marriage" in not declaring your status, but that is water under the bridge.

Your continual reference to me as "stupid, ignorant, bigoted etc" are wrong and insulting.
Personally I don't care what you do with your life or whether you want to live it as a man or a woman, I simply have many more important things to address at present

My remarks were addressed to those who wish to manipulate children.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:27 AM

I wondered how soon it would be before I started getting called "he/she" which, under English and Scottish hate law is arrestable. I have a female birth certificate and my gender is female. Use it or lose it! I will forgive your blind ignorance and bigotry on this one occasion but will not be called a he/she by you. I wonder what your defence would be in court? Please don't test how many rights people like myself have to make your point because in law you will lose. I have not been open and honest on this forum to be attacked by you akenaton and I urgently advise you to wihdraw that kind of offensive hate speech.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:19 AM

I hear you raggytash, and the other who have advised me to keep my head down, and appreciate it. BUT...

You see most of my life I have had to put up with such attitudes: the bullying, bigotry, hatred, wrong diagnoses, rejection. If I am to be hated then I shall be hated for something I am rather than loved for something I am not.

Most people are decent folk. I have come to KNOW that. Most everyone in my life accept me for what and who I am. Acceptance is way way better than tolerance but I'll take tolerance any day over hate.

It is not lost on me that I would not have the rights I have to live my life were it not for those brave folk, straight, gay and cis, who have stuck their necks out in the past and took a stand to help get me the rights I now have and enjoy. Thus, I have right to remain too silent and stay in the shadows when such opportunities present to be out and educate on the subject. Had others done that I would still be living in abject conformity and fear I dare say. I am stood on the shoulders of giants.

So I speak up on sexuality and gender issues when I feel the need. I do not wear my sexuality on my sleeve. Neither do I throw my gender in people's faces BUT I will not stay stealthy because I let those who follow down if I do. I choose my battlegrounds for sure but I cannot stay silent when others are standing alongside. I am grateful to everyone who every stood up for me to get rights. I now need to give something back so that those who follow have it easier (and that includes the children. ESPECIALLY the children and their parents who support them).

Too many live have been lost and taken on these battle fields of gender and sexuality. It has to stop. The knuckle-draggers need to know their days are numbered. No-one is trying to take away their rights to be who they are nor silenced. They are being given an opportunity to change their thinking, educate themselves, and get on with their lives unmolested in a free society where hate speech and incitement is not allowed. We have a ways to go.

So I am not an activist. I am not a gender extremeist. I simply stand and be counted alongside those who are kind and brave enough to allow me air to breathe with no resentment. And I am grateful for that, I assure you all, so that neither sexuality or gender stains my being. I have a very normal life (whatever normal is) and I now do all things I ever wished to to, freely, without begging for a chance to just be myself.

The likelihood is, had this topic not come up, I would not have mentioned it. It's no secret, as I 'outed myself' quite some time back on another thread where gender was a topic, and my stance on freedom to be whatever sexuality you are has never been hidden.

Heated though many a BS topic gets, most folk on Mudcat are decent folk, just as in 'real life' and the mix here reflects that of society generally I suppose :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:07 AM

Who is interested in the long term welfare of small children?
We should be nurturing and educating and protecting......not manipulating.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:57 AM

It seems to me that the "people who have problems with their sexuality" have problems mainly because they often find themselves surrounded by the antediluvian attitudes of people who like to see gender and sexuality in incredibly narrow and simplistic terms. Such people should exercise one of two options: either get yourself educated, or shut up and stop hurting people. Jim says it all.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:54 AM

Raggytash...That is a misrepresentation of my views.
MP can live whatever life he/she choses in whatever gender she choses, it will make no difference at all to society and if he/she is happy that is fine.

What I am commenting on is the pressurisation of small children to express themselves sexually ....normal child's play involves all sorts of role playing, that is part of growing up, sex can be addressed and explored after puberty.

If we start manipulating small children to validate adults agendas we are in real trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:44 AM

I am rarely raised to anger, but that article and the radio programme made me very angry indeed. I love kids, and I love the idea of "childhood".....we are in the process of destroying it.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:42 AM

I fear Mauvepink that with some on this forum you are wasting your time and energy.

Most of us are quite happy that you live whichever life you choose. Good luck to you.

However some would insist that your lifestyle is an aberration and should not even be talked about, even less allowed.

I see repeatedly their distaste, even hatred, of your choice.

If you can, I should advise you to ignore them and their ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:36 AM

Has anyone actually read the link which I provided?

We seem to be at cross purposes, the thread is about the "preservation of gender"

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:35 AM

"We must not pressurise our children, simply because a tiny minority of adults have problems dealing with their sexuality."
Absolutely true
The history of sexuality has been one of pressure to conform to the mass, by prejudice and bigotry, by religious teaching, by law (often extreme to the point to using torture, imprisonment and capital punishment to force homosexuals to conform and by straightforward physical terror.
The world, at long last, has moved on, and only a small minority of extremists are desperately hanging on - many of whose personal problems with their own sexuality and sexual identity, have led them to interfere with the natural sexuality of others.
The next step is to prevent their would-be persecution with laws preventing them, or at least discoursing them from doing so - as has happeed to some degree with racism.
It really is about time that those implying a link between homosexuality and child abuse are prosecuted under the law.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:32 AM

Incidentally, I am NOT saying everyone who does not understand trans or sexuality is a bigot. Genuine ignorance is not a crime and most folk actually like to be enlightened and learn something more on something they are curious about but have no way of knowing what is going on.

Looking at this discussion it would seem several are not fully aware of all the issues... but they have not gone off on some rant simply because it is different. There seems a genuine warmth and willingness on this thread to live and let live, be open minded, and be non judgemental.

Times really are a changing. For some they truly do need to start swimming or they will, indeed, sink like a stone :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:30 AM

Oh dear. Ignorance and prejudice are being taken to new heights here.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:27 AM

It would appear someone has no clue about what they are talking about. How is something to do with gender a "sexual aberration"? Why would a correspondent talk to a child about their gender and yet it is referred to as "their sexuality".

I quite agree a great deal of abuse does go on around the issue, but acceptance in letting a child decide how they wish to present themselves until they can make a legal consent on their own futures, is not part of it. Forcing children to conform to societal roles is abuse when they feel very different about it. Allowing them freedom to delve is not.

The fact you have taken gender related issues and gone on the usual sexuality witch hunt actually shows much more of your agenda than you seem to be aware of yourself. You are not alone. Thousands like you do the same thing. It is a difficult subject to get your head around when it's not you who is affected. My advice would be is if it does not affect you then don't talk about something you know (seemingly) little about OR learn something more factual on the subject and put your energies into allowing it to sink in. Not everything is a sexual conspiracy and that include gender issues particularly.

When I was little children we were made to conform to stereotypes that now do not hold up in a more educated and freer (for some) world. We now all have more rights, for one thing, to protect from the hate speech and agenda of some in society who would oppress and supress anything they themselves find 'different' or offensive. What is it they fear, I wonder, when it does not affect them?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:14 AM

Sorry Al, cross posted, I know you're a real nice guy, but sometimes folks have to question what is happening in modern society.

The analogy of my friends is pertinent, no child was ever put under pressure to address their sexuality in my young days.

Play was an important part of growing up, after puberty people were able to accept their gender roles without difficulty.

We must not pressurise our children, simply because a tiny minority of adults have problems dealing with their sexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:05 AM

Interviewed??.....these people are some of my personal friends.
Our school had thirty -five pupils, all taught in one classroom, it was like a huge family....none have changed gender, all seem to be happy and living a normal life.

The ones who moved away, are still in touch with the locals.
I have come to understand that life is controlled by ones upbringing, security in the home, and just the right amount of personal freedom, without the huge pressures that children face today.

Children have become a marketing target for selling and indoctrination, childhood is disappearing, eroded by people who shamelessly use kids to try to advance their strange agenda.

I really fear for the safety of tomorrows children.

As Burns famously said...... "and furrit tho' ah canna see,
                              ah guess.... and fear!"

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:50 AM

Ake, old pal, you should try listening to what these people are saying.

they have described their lives to you and you are not listening.

little tomboys is one thing, transexual is quite another.

child abuse is quite another - no one is standing up for it.

i'm sure there are some people on this site who will accuse you of wilful misunderstanding. its too easy to point such a finger. its quite as bad as what you're doing.

you're being judgemental. there is no point in aspiring to be more 'normal'; more this or that than what we are. we are what we are.

try to be grateful and understanding of diversity. like i am asking the site to be understanding of your diversity.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:45 AM

I asked for evidence, not unsupported anecdotes. Have you interviewed every one of those former tomboys to ensure they are really happy and well-adjusted? Would they tell you even if they weren't. Facts, please.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:59 AM

Read this and weep, if people want something to be "phobic" about, they should stat with the disgusting, child abusing media.
This story, or one very similar, was broadcast on BBC radio 4, unbelievably the creature sent out to interview the little girl(who wanted to be a boy) told her how brave she was to address her sexuality so early in life. He asked when she started having these feelings. The child responded "when I was four...I think".

When I was a boy, out in the country, ALL girls were "tomboys", they climbed trees, raced, played "Cowboys and Indians", they were happy normal kids. We were very poor and all wore utilitarian cloths mostly home made, seldom new.

All of these girls grew up to be happy well adjusted women and almost all of them produced children and are now proud grandparents.

Many of these "tomboys" still live in this area and still keep in touch with old chums who have moved away.

This sort of behaviour in children is normal and not a sign of sexual aberration.
The aberration comes from those who try to turn normal childish behaviour into a sensational media story......I call it child abuse!!

Child abuse

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:31 AM

Hence the well known expression,"It takes one to know one"?

Transphobia probably has similar causes and is probably particularly prevalent amongst 'hetero' males in particularly macho jobs- military, police etc.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 08:35 PM

Being bi or gay was taken off the medical books a long time ago as being a mental health issue, ie psychological.

Interestingly, the latest research shows that you are not born with bigotry - you learn it or it occurs in your own mind often based on ignorance or fear ei psychological - and that homophobia is most prevalent in closeted gay males!

Harvard study on homophobia in males will give you the gist.

There is no evidence at all that being bi or gay is psychological in origin no more than being straight is. It occurs quite naturally and, most likely, is hard wired before we are born. Thus, it has an organic origin albeit the wiring is in the brain.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 07:25 PM

i remember thirty odd yearsago i had a residency in a gay bar in Barnsley.

i remember telling a fiend and he was amazed.....a gay bar in Barnsley!.....where were all these people in years past...

in hiding, i guess.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 06:24 PM

Yep, my comment was aimed at a guest who was having a go at me but who had posted in the wrong thread and whose comment has now disappeared. It's hard to make any sense of it all now. Just ignore it!

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 06:18 PM

Evidence, Akenaton?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 06:12 PM

I think that in most cases it is much more likely to be psychologically based......

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 01:00 PM

@ Ellen

I figured something had been said but that Steve was not aiming the comment to me. I could be wrong but you are of the same mind, thanks

@ punfolkrocker

You never can tell and what does it matter? You are who you are :)

What I read loudly from your quick bio is that you were open to others being open. No closed mind. That is all that counts. You can never be what you cannot be. I have seen girls going after gay men and trying to 'covert them' but it cannot be done if they are gay. Likewise, some straight guys seem to think all a gay woman needs is the right man to show her a good time!

Some bigots use twin studies to show how sexuality is not genetic just because the so-called 'gay gene' has not been found. But you can have identical twins where one is bi and the other straight. It is very easily explained too when we invoke epigenetics and the hormonal environment in utero where one twin gets more or less blood supply than the other. Indeed it is common. It is highly likely gay gene will never be found as it is probably a whole subset of genes that need to be influenced some way to make it happen.

Thankfully my sexuality was a walk in the park to deal with after all the trans stuff I went through. It's not a great influence on my life at all. I am grateful that music has been with me like forever :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 12:25 PM

From the age of about 12, me & my mates and wider peers,
were influenced [a certain minority here might shout brainwashed]
by all kinds of post 'summer of love' pop culture;
that open mindedness to personal sexual liberation and freedom and experimentation
was the cool superior way of being - the new positive future
for our young generation of students / musicians / artists / actors....

From 70s Glam Rock to 80s New Romantics, we grew through teens to early 20s
to accept bisexuality as a cool viable option;
maybe even an expectation or obligation to conform to this newly establishing norm and try it at least one time..

Though I never actually did...
I went to plenty of gigs and parties, even gay pubs, so there was no lack of opportunity...???

I knew enough gay men wanted me.. quite flattering to my young ego I guess..

I just didn't fancy blokes.. not even the pretty ones in make up.

One boozy night though, a guy sat down next to me on a sofa in the student union,
and suddenly put his arm round my shoulders and began licking my ear..
I froze in discomfort...... told him I wasn't up for it, and made a dash for the bar.

By the time I reached 25 I just finally accepted that I had no sexual interest in blokes,
and despite my progressive ideological mindset, it was nothing I should feel guilty about.

However my younger sibling, after suicide attempts,
and long spell in residential mental healthcare, did come out to the family as gay.

Odd really, We both grew up in the same council estate,
went to the same infant & primary schools.. ???

Yet I was the one who went to grammar school and 6th form college in the big town,
and hung around an arty, druggy, bohemian scene,
acted in youth theatre and played in punk bands, and had outrageous gay mates..

While sibling went to the local council estate comprehensive, ended up in conventional 9 - 5 office and shop jobs..
and did normal 'straight' evening & weekend pastimes like piano lessons and dog obedience training and shows...

..and.. I was the one stern old uncles had suspicions and concerns about....

Life just seems to confound expectations.... 😕

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 11:31 AM

I think Steve's comment relates to a deleted comment not to Mauvepink!

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:59 AM

Don't talk to poor Megan like that!   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:59 AM

Given that VERY few people are uber male or uber female, uber straight or uber gay, we ALL sit at some point on the axis of gender and sexuality. Unless it is someone I would wish to have aphysical relationship with it does not matter one hoot to me how they define themselves regarding their sexuality. Whilst I physically am attracted to women, I love men and women quite happily because sex is not the centre of my universe.

I have no idea what 'caused' me to be as and who I am. The recent, and rapidly evolving, field of epigenetics covers so many wonderous concoctions of nature and nuture affecting so many animals in very different ways.

Many of us are hard wired toward being a certain type of being well before we are born (in utero where hormonal highs and lows can really effect more than just physical sexual characteristics) and then the rest is down to environmental effects from all sorts of directions (not least our parents and immediate surroundings).

There is no 'set model' for any animal, human or non human; just a blueprint that has all sorts of things that can be changed as it gets built.

In my case I do not think any estrogenic chemicals ever got a chance to affect my body in any way I would not have welcomed. The chances are my 'fate' was sealed before I was born. That said, I have no regrets for myself. I do regret having caused people who know me pain and hardship at times (often when I had no idea that was what I was doing). I would certainly go about the whole transition process different BUT would still transition.

I do not pretend to be perfect or anyone's cup of tea. All I know is that I am happy and function better now as a whole human being than at any time in my life. I am individual. Just like all of you :)

I do thank those of you who have obviously thought more deep about the topic for your input and insight :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:44 AM

why can't folks jist be folks I diny gie a damb if they are tartan wie a majinty border as long as they treat folk decent.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:43 AM

seeing as I haven't read any textbooks in any subject for at least 25 years..

my grasp of concepts and terminology might be a bit dodgy... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:39 AM

I also studied a bit of socio biology for my degree,
in considering various theories on the wide spectrum / diversity of human gender & sexuality.
But best to leave that well alone as it is a science more often abused by reactionaries and bigots
to explain / define / categorise 'abnormalities' and 'deviants' for their own pernicious ideological agendas....

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:37 AM

As a biology graduate, may I ask that you couch it in slightly less technical language so that I can understand it? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:29 AM

I got grade B in my Biology O level in 1975 - so that makes me an expert....

I vaguely remember reading that all human embryos [when they are still eggs] start off female,
but have the potential to change into tiny little bloke babies
if one of Daddies loud mouthed aggressive male chromosome spunk tadpoles
competes and wins the race to barge into the egg first.

So yeah it makes much sense that environmental pollutants
can disrupt, damage, and mutate the delicate balance
of genetic precarious male or female default chemistry in our bollock bags... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 09:32 AM

so essentially - what you're saying:-

we're all turning into women, because of chemicals. the ones that have worked on frogs and mice.

the implication being that our mauvepink friend is a victim of these chemicals

seems abit half arsed to me. There have always been byways and off piste bits of sexuality in human kind. look at Isherwoods Berlin. that's nearly 80 years ago.

as one of the characters in Goodbe to Berlin sain, eventually we're all queer....

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 01:17 PM

Of course it was a joke!
The guy on the ESC has a problem, or he's a self publicist.
Certainly didn't do him any harm, but now he'll be quietly forgotten about......it'll never catch on!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 12:49 PM

:)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:26 AM

[blame me for the bad gerkin gag - well.. it's the weekend...]

Yeah.. I'd hate to live in a world were serious subject matter and a healthy ribald sense of humour is not allowed to co-exist positively...

I've learnt that from my old mum [83 this year] and my nan before her [died age 80 with a 'boyfriend' in his 40s]

I know if I were to ever tell my mum I needed gender reassignment surgery
there'd be no end of genuine loving support
or rib tickling near the knuckle filthy jokes about it.... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:20 AM

I saw the post in question and my first reaction, knowing the poster of old, was that it was insulting, offensive etc. etc. However, and this is something I don't often find myself doing, I think I may be able to explain that it was a (poor) joke about the effects of estrogenic chemicals rather than an overt attempt to offend anyone. I could be wrong of course but in this case I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:13 AM

Apologies... I was GUEST at 2/10/15 10.56AM. Would a mud elf kindly put my nick to it? Thank you :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

I, too, see a post has gone missing so am not sure if it is a glitch or a mud elf who has removed it. Either way, I hope my post is allowed to stay in answer to the transphobic remark that was issued and in hope of clearing up any misunderstanding about Conchita Wurst and the Eurovision.

He really suffered a great deal in order to make the point he did and, because of the discussion he launched on the whole topic of trans, TV/CD, drag, and the differences he does deserve better treatment than he often gets.

This has happened before. The dragkings and transvestites stood alongside each other and gay peers at the Stonewall Inn to highlight the great discriminations against the gay community way back when. That started a whole change of attitude and education. Conchita Wurst is, I believe, along such lines as those involved with Stonewall. They are no threat to anyone's gender, no more than transsexual folk are. They just want to live unhampered and unmolested for the most part

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:56 AM

'The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of an eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract.' Oliver Wendell Holmes

Conchita Wurst has never referred to himself as a woman and nor does he identify as one. He has stated uneqivocably that he is happy being a man in a dress and does not in any way wish to be confused. In his own words "I'm strict about the difference. What I do is performance, it's staged, it's glamour – it's not real life. But for trans people, being born in the wrong body – there's nothing glamorous or easy about that."

It really is time some people learned the difference of the reality and not the fantasy that goes off in their own minds that they see as fact. Adding transphobia to a CV of ignorance says more about the person dishing it out than the person it is aimed at.

Gladly, the majority of people are not affected by such discrimination and hate. Cheap shots and insults, as opposed to true humour and laughing with someone instead of at them, separates the men for the boys in more ways than one it seems!

Mauvepink

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM

The corny music hall culture gerkin gag was in response to an exchange between *k* and another mudcat poster,
which have vanished while I| was posting.
Not meant in disrespect to anyone else here.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:47 AM

On the subject of cross dressing, gender reassignment, and cheap laughs;
if only Les Dawson were still alive.

"oooh, preserve gender ?, what a lot of fuss about such a little thing,
the mother in law could have sworn it was a pickled gerkin !"

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 09:27 AM

@ Big Al Whittle

Al, there is much research going on at the moment about estrogenic chenmicals leaching into water (from plastics and plastic linings in some canned foods) that is ellegedly causing men's sperm counts to drop drastically and, in some instance, have feminising effects. Behaviour is already being reported as being changed by effects caused in utero The frogs and mice show effects in other studies. So not only physical but emotional changes are being seen.

It has been known for a couple of decades at least and there is no shortage of scientific papers on the research

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 08:24 AM

@ Dave the Gnome

I could tell you some stories of things that have happened and comments from both genuine folk and numpties. I wrote a song about some of it and it always goes down well lol ;)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 08:02 AM

how do the frogs relate to subject?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:50 AM

Forgot to add my 2 funny(ish) stories of transgender people I have met. The first was Harold who became Heather. I was warned that she was a 'bit odd' by my boss at the time. When we met I could not see much odd and put it down to prejudice by the boss. When Heather started to smoke a pipe I realised what the boss meant :-)

The second was Paul who became Paula. We had an all night job to do migrating some software from one hardware platform to another. After a couple of hours of me sat at a console with Paula looking over my shoulder I offered her my chair. Not out of any false courtesy but simply because she had been stood up a couple of hours. No thanks, she said. I am still sore after the op... I didn't know where to look and after a couple of minutes she burst out laughing with 'You should see the look on your face' :-D Very funny lady who went on to become a popular children's entertainer.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:48 AM

@ Dave the Gnome. How very kind of you :)

I keep threatening to go to Skipton but Monday has been my first night of a long week with work the next day. My new job may give me a Tuesday off so the 100 mile round trip is enticing. I am on leave w/c 26th so be careful what you wish for! I don't know the Keighley club but will look it up. I have sung near Hebden Bridge and found Yorkshire folk very friendly when I have been on the borders near Blackburn and Oswaldtwistle. TBH, music is an oil that keeps many cogs happily lubricated between people who are open to diversity :)

I hope you are happy where you are and have kept your Lancashire passport should you ever venture back! lol

THank you for sticking your neck out... it really is appreciated. Yourself and several others have kept my status here on these boards confidential and that has been appreciated a great deal over time

Best wishes to you and all on here :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:34 AM

:-) Not sadly at all, MP, it was my pleasure. I can confirm to all detractors that everything you say about gender and sexuality being immaterial is true.

I have moved out of the area now and if ever you find yourself up in the Skipton or Keighley areas get in touch. I am sure you will find an equal welcome at either club there (Monday and Friday respectively)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 05:46 AM

Sadly, for you, yes we did Dave.

Without any wish to embarass you... your acceptance of me that night, and the club generally, is how I find most people on the music scene. I sing in a lot of places and have only have come across two "folkies" who had any kind of problem with me (at least to my face)

I am hard on the ears and eyes I guess but folks like yourself - with the openess and acceptance they show me - on enriches my life further :)

There are several members on these boards who have met me and sang both with me and been where I have been singing. My trans status never seems to bother any of them. They just see me as another singer :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 05:34 AM

Did we meet once at Swinton, MauvePink?

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 05:31 AM

@ Richard Bridge

Hi Richard. The topic is extremely complex and I would fear that trying to explain a great deal of it would bring out the worse in some who, unlike you, are unprepared to accept transsexuality and give equal measure to all. It was not lost on me that you did say you are prepared to accept equality between cis and trans folk.

Were we to have a national screening programme, looking and the genes of "biological" males and females we would find all sort on anomalies that would point to many not being 'truly' male or 'truly' female and yet their biological appearance (secondary sexual characteristics) would be what was initially recorded on their birth certificates: ie., this body had a penis or a vagina on such and such a date when they were born. Even ibtersex folk are given one or the other label and yet are of 'indeterminate sex' according to whoever sees them into the world. Thankfully the rushed decisions and butchery that used to go on in deciding how a person should be made to look is rapidly being dumped in place for patience and a "let's see and wait" policy.

You may or may not agree but one thing I know is that having a penis or a vagina is not what makes you a man or a woman. A soldier who has his penis shot off does not become a woman (though he may feel much less a man!).

Argument is rife, both in the trans and gay communities, about what is what. The research is scanty (no money in it) except for the dedicated. I actually have had less problems from straight folk than I have from some radical lesbian feminists and trans women when it comes to slinging mud and calling names. Minorities can be terrible to other minorities at times. Basically I just get on with my life because the vast majority of people, straight, gay, bi or trans are not that bothered. My time of self analysis and concern for "Why" went a long time ago. Life has far greater challenges and rewards.

But as trans is to do with gender, and straight, gay, bi has to do with sexuality, it becomes areal mish-mash of concern to some when they try to figure it.

Personally I have no prurient interest in other's sexualities or what they do with each other. That is their business if it is consensual,legal and is not affecting me. I am more bothered in what someone has between the ears than between their legs. Whilst I identify as gay I have no ill will against men. I love men... but not physically.

Times are rapidly changing (I wonder what lyrics Bob Dylan would now add to his song?). Everyone is very different and individual. No trans person is the same as another, no more than a cis male or female is the same as their own peers. In the main we all have a great deal more in common than we do not BUT what makes us interesting is that difference. Just as the 1% of difference between chimps and humans makes for huge difference.

I eat and sleep like you. I work and pay taxes like you. In the last week I have been made redundant and, luckily, got another job on Monday. I bleed the same, I cry the same, I smile and feel joy, anxiety and love.

The one area that affects me the most is my voice. I detest it. Others love it. I love singing and I love music. I am on mudcat for the music, mostly, but do enjoy discussion on other things too (away from any bigotry).

I hope I have answered some of your questions. I do not need to like you physically to respect you. I suspect you are saying the same about me all in all? Where our physical boundaries are set is different in everyone. I'm not that different except I chose to make my body more congruous to my emotional soma

As for the word manifest. As I say, I do not see myself as any kind of manifestation. I am simple living my life as a contributing human being within the community and society I live. I am just me :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 11:58 AM

"I concede that the eye may be deceived and that touch may also mislead."


Warning - do not get too drunk in bars in Thailand.

Then again.. if you wake up next morning with a big smile on your face,
friends and family back home need ever know.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 11:52 AM

Mauvepink, I merely wished to avoid implying that a former woman who appears to be a man, and a former man who appears to be a woman (the former being a transman and the latter a transwoman) are not merely exercising a lifestyle choice. I am open to a better word than "manifest". The gender descriptor applies to the outward appearance, the clothing, the social conduct.

In that sense I would not describe someone biologically male but who appeared to be female, but whose sexual preference was for sex with women, as a transwoman. I have not to date seen any serious consideration of the concept of a biologically male lesbian, or a biologically female gay man. Can you direct me to sensible debate on the matter?

Be that as it may I am (as far as I know) exclusively sexually attracted to the biologically female although I concede that the eye may be deceived and that touch may also mislead.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 07:27 AM

No its just that we obviously have a personality problem Joe. :0)

You're one of the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM

I rather like the Opposite Sex.

Does this make me a horrible person?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 04:33 AM

Funny how motivations in debate appear; couldn't you have been more open when debating on other threads, it would have contextualised your stance.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 09:04 PM

No transwoman MANifests herself as anyone other than herself and not all transwomen have a wish to "get it on" with men.

This transwoman loves men but has no wish to wake up with one as I am also gay. Why do so many men think they are the dream come true of transwomen? If it is truly a man's world I am happy being a woman in i

I'm only here for the music :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 07:17 PM

you think screwing frogs can make you queer....?

try not to worry

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:17 PM

Forgive me for being serious. Or don't forgive me; I don't care.

With glyphosate destroying gender in frogs and other water creatures, how long do you think it will take before humans are affected. It is a known that hormones and environmental toxins are clearly affecting gender in humans.

If you have a concern: do something!

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 01:16 PM

that's interesting Mcgrath, but I assume bert was commenting on the usual meaning of the word. I have heard that there are instances of adding ...other.. to male or female to whichever box the person wishes to tick .

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 12:49 PM

Gender actually means kind, so there are millions of genders. Being a Mudcatter means belonging to that gender, and so does being a Mormon. And so of course does being male or female.

I suppose it got used as a replacement for "sex" because some people think it's a bit naughty to say the word.

I think it is high time the original mean got revived and preserved.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 11:44 AM

There is a difference between gender and biological sex. And while I am very prepared to approve of equality between cis and trans people of the same gender, I really could not, I think, get it on with a trans woman (for the benefit of the ignorant that is a person who is biologically male but manifests as a woman).

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 08:35 AM

... you know all that early 1970s Glam Rock androgyny,
and bisexuality is cool and the future lifestyle sexuality of mankind....
and similar early 1980s New Romantic gender bending...

well being smart progressive arty farty daring youths
me and my mates dabbled with a bit of eyeshadow and face paint at gigs & parties for a laugh..

but when it came to snogging other blokes....
nah.. too stubbly and beery breathed, and they don't have knockers and foofs...

So that was the end of that trendy late 20th Century cultural engineering experiment as far as we were concerned... 😜


...mind you though, one of my girl friends did get some kind of kinky thrill from putting make up on me..
those long ago passionate nights are some great memories
now that I'm a boring conventional old fat married bloke with bad feet and sciatica..............

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:18 AM

Formaldehyde is pretty good for preserving pigs' willies.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:13 AM

It's made by Hartleys. Gender Preserve, Next to the Strawberry Jam at Morrisons...

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:45 AM

Humour. It seems to have bypassed you, sour Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 04:09 AM

Given that nature has managed perfectly well on its own for millions of years, I not sure what contribution you intend to bring?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 04:01 AM

Which is why cricket boxes were invented.

Subject: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Bert
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 03:33 AM

If we didn't we wouldn't be here.