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BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.

Jeri 04 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM
mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Ellen Vannin 04 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Ellen Vannin 04 Oct 15 - 11:55 AM
mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 10:23 AM
Jeri 04 Oct 15 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 04 Oct 15 - 08:41 AM
mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 08:23 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 15 - 08:19 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 15 - 08:09 AM
mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 08:09 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM
mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 04 Oct 15 - 07:38 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 07:37 AM
mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 07:27 AM
mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 07:19 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 07:07 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 15 - 06:57 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 06:54 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Raggytash 04 Oct 15 - 06:42 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 06:36 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 15 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 06:32 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 15 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 04 Oct 15 - 06:27 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 06:14 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 06:05 AM
Big Al Whittle 04 Oct 15 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Ellen Vannin 04 Oct 15 - 05:45 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 15 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,LynnH 04 Oct 15 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 03 Oct 15 - 08:35 PM
Big Al Whittle 03 Oct 15 - 07:25 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 15 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,Ellen Vannin 03 Oct 15 - 06:18 PM
akenaton 03 Oct 15 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 03 Oct 15 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 03 Oct 15 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Ellen Vannin 03 Oct 15 - 11:31 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 15 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,mauvepink 03 Oct 15 - 10:59 AM
Megan L 03 Oct 15 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 03 Oct 15 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 03 Oct 15 - 10:39 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 15 - 10:37 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM

Ake, I think you're wrong, too.
And FOR THE RECORD, I was definitely NOT talking about EV, mauvepink, or anyone trying to explain what being trans is like when I talked about people who enjoyed being angry.

It just doesn't do any good to say it over and over when you're never going to question what you believe you know, never going to accept fact that don't agree with your opinion. And the defensiveness is inexplicably explosive.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM

I never saw jeri actually telling me to "grow up" but if that is what they meant so be it. I also never threatened you. I pointed out, in FACT, that it was not a threat but there to educate you as to the real law. Not your law but the law of the land (in your case, Scotland I believe).

The thread never was about me and my replies have been in defence of it being said I am "he/she" and needing to clarify my staus. It was you who was asking for special conditions being put on my ability to take part in topics on this forum. You were and are clearly in the wrong, which I pointed out, and you may no doubt go on and act the victim because someone has dared answer you back in a way you cannot comprehend.

Anyway, whether jeri is telling me to grow up or not is for them to make clearer to me. I accepted your word earlier and said I would let it lie and yet you continue this "woe is you" because I dared answr back. Say as you will. You do anyway. Others are free to tell me themselves without you pointing it out.

Talking of disingenuity: trying to recruit moderators to your side to stick up for you will still not make what you said legal. They can shut the thread and they can ban me. The law will remain unchanged.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

Contemptible.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

(Sigh) We try, and we go on trying. Akenaton, who believes that AIDS can be wiped out if gay people aren't allowed to marry, expresses his opinion and people try, try and try again to explain to him. It's been going on for years. We must feel that somewhere inside the apparent prejudice and truly bonkers logic there is someone who is hurting and needs help.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 01:11 PM

MP, let ME put YOU right.
I have committed no CRIME on this or any other thread on Mudcat, never threatened you or anyone else never abused you or libelled you.

This forum or even this thread is not just about YOU.

I make no comment on how you live your life, good luck to you, but understand this....I will never be threatened, browbeaten, or intimidated by people quoting law at me.
YOU have no chance, the tactic has already been tried here by experts, I am still here and they are gone.....thanks to moderators and an owner who understands the meaning of free speech.
You disagree with anything I say, I will gladly debate with you, if I don't have ALL the facts I will give a civil opinion, or express an opinion related to the subject(like the link that I gave) you and the usual subjects jump in desperate to be offended, when there was no intention on my part to do so.

As to the last post by EV it is absolutely contemptible and saying that someone's considered opinion is "simply wrong" does not an argument make.

I think jeri has it about right....grow up.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 11:55 AM

Akenation -
You've said that transgender must be psychological because you know 35 people who have all grown up happy and normal. Do you? If you'd met me (and maybe you did) 15 years ago you would have seen someone happy and normal (and fertile, since you seem to associate have children with being normal and happy). That's what I showed to people. That's how I behaved. Then I decided I could no longer go on living someone else's life and I made some major changes - not the same as Mauvepink, but still major.

As other people have said, you don't know what you are talking about. If you want to, you can find out what transgender means. If you prefer, you can continue in your happy ignorance. That's your choice, as my choice of how I live is mine.

As for your belief that children are forced into pretending to a gender other than their apparent biological gender, you are wrong, desperately wrong. You are wrong about their parents, wrong about them and very damaging.

Sort out your own life, you've given us enough clues over the years. You can't solve your problems by attacking innocent bystanders.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 10:23 AM

I have to say my intent has never been to 'pee anyone off' simply by standing up for myself and for those who are feared of daring say anything because of their sexuality or gender.

You know the saying "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing", by Edmund Burke? Well it applies for women too. When good men stand up for my rights I need not feel so silenced and almost owe it to them, and those unable to defend themselves, to speak up.

I still get scared and I know fear of assault every day of my life but somehow my need to have a life is greater than the fear and, thankfully, to the "good men" (and women) I am extremely grateful :)


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 09:47 AM

Instead of a thread about gender-based language, this has slipped into a discussion of trans gendered people--still somewhat on-topic. If it goes any further down the bullying/personal attack route, it's not going to last much longer. Subject-based, fine/who-somebody-is-based not fine.
Just a prediction

Ake said "no child was ever put under pressure to address their sexuality in my young days"

Well, yes, assuming we're in about the same generation, we were. You might have missed it because you weren't aware of anything that personally affected YOU.

I was told--and my mother found a fairly objective way to put it--"some people think girls shouldn't climb trees or play with toy trucks or want to be a cowboy". Again, the language. I didn't want to be a cowBOY. I wanted to do what cowboys did and be a girl.

When people start telling you what you should or shouldn't do based on your gender, they ARE putting pressure on you to address your gender--what you probably mean by using the word "sexuality".

I'm probably never going to fully understand trans people because I'm not one. I make mistakes, but I try to listen to people and learn.

What may be a kernel of true evil inside some people is whatever thought process tells them they have the right to tell other people how to live their lives when the greatest harm those other people can do is piss them off. Let those addicted to feeling offended take responsibility for their own living hells.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:41 AM

I think if YOU read carefully Ake you will find I did not mention any name, least of all yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:23 AM

Hedgehogs get squashed and birds get hit by vehicles because they have not evolved fast enough to learn to avoid them. Over time the ones who have survived will pass on something that allow more and more to be aware of the environment they now live in.

I think much the same is happening with new ideas and concepts in society. Sexuality and gender, the new research findings and biological basis for such 'phenomena', shall we say, together with new acceptance and legal entitlements are slowly finding their ways into a woder, opem mindset of society at large. Such evolution takes time BUT it is rapidly developing and less random than evolution in the bigger sense.

I am not against folk who have problems understanding new concepts and ideas. Like learning a new song, some need crib sheets and pick it up slower than another would, but in the end the song is learned hopefully and plays a part in wider music scene as it spreads.

I don't understand nor like football. Last night I hated rugby because, after turning up at 7pm for a gig, only to not be able to set up in front of the big screen behind the stage, I had to wait until 9.45 to do it all and hasty sound checks, after the rugby had finished. I respect that others like football and rugby and that is not their fault just because I do not like it. We all still got on well and a good gig was had by all once started.

Acceptance causes far less anxiety for all than enforced tolerance. Times they are a changing ;) lol


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:19 AM

"we are in the process of destroying it."
Those who are forcing children to conform against their natural instincts most certainly are.
"What I am commenting on is the pressurisation of small children to express themselves sexually"
Children are forced to express themselves sexually - and in many, many other ways from the day they were born - in the way they are dressed, in the identity that is forced upon them by what they are taught, shown, given as role models..... all a "ink and blue world" from day one.
Your objection is that same-sex couples do the same (except they don't)
Children are forced into acting unnaturally from birth - by a society that has created 'norms' or right and wrong.
You man never have been honest enough to admit to "hating homosexuals," but you have said yo "pity" them, and you persistently present them as a disease-carrying threat.
What is that, if it is not hatred?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:09 AM

If I don't have to go around declaring my status, why should anyone else? Am I being disingenuous because I'm not actually saying out loud that I am a male heterosexual before I express my opinion on gay marriage? Would you like me to declare my shoe size as well?


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:09 AM

I never used ignoramus either

As you are fond of links let me reflect on the CPS handbook for you


In Scotland the law is different
The new law is called the Offences (Aggravation by Prejudice) (Scotland) Act. It will mean that homo/biphobic, transphobic and disability-prejudice crime is properly recognised as hate crime.
This is the first transgender-inclusive hate crime legislation in Europe, and has the most inclusive definition of transgender identity in any European legislation.From tomorrow, any criminal offence which is partly or wholly motivated by prejudice on grounds of disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity, will be dealt with as a hate crime all the way through the system.The offence could for example be an assault, or vandalism, or verbal threats and abuse which can be charged as breach of the peace, or any other crime. If the person committing the offence uses homo/biphobic, transphobic, or disability-prejudice language, or if there is any other evidence of their prejudiced motive, that makes it a hate crime. If anyone witnessing a crime thinks it was a hate crime, the police must record it as a hate incident. If there is any evidence of the hate motive, for example prejudiced language was used, it will be charged as a hate crime. If the person charged is found guilty, the hate motive will be taken into account in sentencing - and the court must
say publicly what difference the hate motive made to the sentence


I put this here in order help you to understand that there are some things you can no longer say to people with protected characteristics. It is not a threat in any way as it's intent is to educate as you were showing ignorance of the law (which is not a defence).

I accept your oversight and will update the screenshots to reflect my acceptance. No disingenuous statements have ever been made by me in regards to my sexuality or gender. Just because I have brought to the fore that I am trans makes no odds to my legal status and it certainly should not make me a target for your derision now or in the future.

I am happy to let sleeping dogs now lie and to get on with the thread :)


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM

Well MP the he she was because I was unsure of how you wished to be addressed, if you feel offended by that reference, of course I will immediately withdraw it and henceforth you will be referred to as "she".

I would also appreciate the removal of "hater", "bigot" and "ignoramus" in reference to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM

Sorry Raggytash but it appears that you are unable to read or comprehend.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM

akenaton said Calm down MP, no one here "hates" you or how you have chosen to live your life.

You have been disingenuous in the past, when arguing on same sex "marriage" in not declaring your status, but that is water under the bridge.

Your continual reference to me as "stupid, ignorant, bigoted etc" are wrong and insulting.
Personally I don't care what you do with your life or whether you want to live it as a man or a woman, I simply have many more important things to address at present

My remarks were addressed to those who wish to manipulate children.


Your remarks made reference to me being "he/she" no matter what the subject of your input. I have never called you stupid and I have referred to your behaviour as ignorant and bigoted which it has been. How have I been disingenuous in the past in not declaring my status? I am female and I am able to marry who I wish jow of either gender if that is what I wanted. I have no need explain any further. No-one else seems to have an issue and none have referred to me or other transfolk in such a way. I do urge you to cease it as I have just taken advice and have done what I need to do in case you get this shut down.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:38 AM

Message received Mauvepink, I wish you a happy and fulfilled life.

As for the hatred which accompanies some posts I for one would be delighted if one of the instigators were taken to court and prosecuted. Not before time.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:37 AM

Calm down MP, no one here "hates" you or how you have chosen to live your life.

You have been disingenuous in the past, when arguing on same sex "marriage" in not declaring your status, but that is water under the bridge.

Your continual reference to me as "stupid, ignorant, bigoted etc" are wrong and insulting.
Personally I don't care what you do with your life or whether you want to live it as a man or a woman, I simply have many more important things to address at present

My remarks were addressed to those who wish to manipulate children.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:27 AM

I wondered how soon it would be before I started getting called "he/she" which, under English and Scottish hate law is arrestable. I have a female birth certificate and my gender is female. Use it or lose it! I will forgive your blind ignorance and bigotry on this one occasion but will not be called a he/she by you. I wonder what your defence would be in court? Please don't test how many rights people like myself have to make your point because in law you will lose. I have not been open and honest on this forum to be attacked by you akenaton and I urgently advise you to wihdraw that kind of offensive hate speech.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:19 AM

I hear you raggytash, and the other who have advised me to keep my head down, and appreciate it. BUT...

You see most of my life I have had to put up with such attitudes: the bullying, bigotry, hatred, wrong diagnoses, rejection. If I am to be hated then I shall be hated for something I am rather than loved for something I am not.

Most people are decent folk. I have come to KNOW that. Most everyone in my life accept me for what and who I am. Acceptance is way way better than tolerance but I'll take tolerance any day over hate.

It is not lost on me that I would not have the rights I have to live my life were it not for those brave folk, straight, gay and cis, who have stuck their necks out in the past and took a stand to help get me the rights I now have and enjoy. Thus, I have right to remain too silent and stay in the shadows when such opportunities present to be out and educate on the subject. Had others done that I would still be living in abject conformity and fear I dare say. I am stood on the shoulders of giants.

So I speak up on sexuality and gender issues when I feel the need. I do not wear my sexuality on my sleeve. Neither do I throw my gender in people's faces BUT I will not stay stealthy because I let those who follow down if I do. I choose my battlegrounds for sure but I cannot stay silent when others are standing alongside. I am grateful to everyone who every stood up for me to get rights. I now need to give something back so that those who follow have it easier (and that includes the children. ESPECIALLY the children and their parents who support them).

Too many live have been lost and taken on these battle fields of gender and sexuality. It has to stop. The knuckle-draggers need to know their days are numbered. No-one is trying to take away their rights to be who they are nor silenced. They are being given an opportunity to change their thinking, educate themselves, and get on with their lives unmolested in a free society where hate speech and incitement is not allowed. We have a ways to go.

So I am not an activist. I am not a gender extremeist. I simply stand and be counted alongside those who are kind and brave enough to allow me air to breathe with no resentment. And I am grateful for that, I assure you all, so that neither sexuality or gender stains my being. I have a very normal life (whatever normal is) and I now do all things I ever wished to to, freely, without begging for a chance to just be myself.

The likelihood is, had this topic not come up, I would not have mentioned it. It's no secret, as I 'outed myself' quite some time back on another thread where gender was a topic, and my stance on freedom to be whatever sexuality you are has never been hidden.

Heated though many a BS topic gets, most folk on Mudcat are decent folk, just as in 'real life' and the mix here reflects that of society generally I suppose :)


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 07:07 AM

Who is interested in the long term welfare of small children?
We should be nurturing and educating and protecting......not manipulating.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:57 AM

It seems to me that the "people who have problems with their sexuality" have problems mainly because they often find themselves surrounded by the antediluvian attitudes of people who like to see gender and sexuality in incredibly narrow and simplistic terms. Such people should exercise one of two options: either get yourself educated, or shut up and stop hurting people. Jim says it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:54 AM

Raggytash...That is a misrepresentation of my views.
MP can live whatever life he/she choses in whatever gender she choses, it will make no difference at all to society and if he/she is happy that is fine.

What I am commenting on is the pressurisation of small children to express themselves sexually ....normal child's play involves all sorts of role playing, that is part of growing up, sex can be addressed and explored after puberty.

If we start manipulating small children to validate adults agendas we are in real trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:44 AM

I am rarely raised to anger, but that article and the radio programme made me very angry indeed. I love kids, and I love the idea of "childhood".....we are in the process of destroying it.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:42 AM

I fear Mauvepink that with some on this forum you are wasting your time and energy.

Most of us are quite happy that you live whichever life you choose. Good luck to you.

However some would insist that your lifestyle is an aberration and should not even be talked about, even less allowed.

I see repeatedly their distaste, even hatred, of your choice.

If you can, I should advise you to ignore them and their ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:36 AM

Has anyone actually read the link which I provided?

We seem to be at cross purposes, the thread is about the "preservation of gender"


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:35 AM

"We must not pressurise our children, simply because a tiny minority of adults have problems dealing with their sexuality."
Absolutely true
The history of sexuality has been one of pressure to conform to the mass, by prejudice and bigotry, by religious teaching, by law (often extreme to the point to using torture, imprisonment and capital punishment to force homosexuals to conform and by straightforward physical terror.
The world, at long last, has moved on, and only a small minority of extremists are desperately hanging on - many of whose personal problems with their own sexuality and sexual identity, have led them to interfere with the natural sexuality of others.
The next step is to prevent their would-be persecution with laws preventing them, or at least discoursing them from doing so - as has happeed to some degree with racism.
It really is about time that those implying a link between homosexuality and child abuse are prosecuted under the law.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:32 AM

Incidentally, I am NOT saying everyone who does not understand trans or sexuality is a bigot. Genuine ignorance is not a crime and most folk actually like to be enlightened and learn something more on something they are curious about but have no way of knowing what is going on.

Looking at this discussion it would seem several are not fully aware of all the issues... but they have not gone off on some rant simply because it is different. There seems a genuine warmth and willingness on this thread to live and let live, be open minded, and be non judgemental.

Times really are a changing. For some they truly do need to start swimming or they will, indeed, sink like a stone :)


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:30 AM

Oh dear. Ignorance and prejudice are being taken to new heights here.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:27 AM

It would appear someone has no clue about what they are talking about. How is something to do with gender a "sexual aberration"? Why would a correspondent talk to a child about their gender and yet it is referred to as "their sexuality".

I quite agree a great deal of abuse does go on around the issue, but acceptance in letting a child decide how they wish to present themselves until they can make a legal consent on their own futures, is not part of it. Forcing children to conform to societal roles is abuse when they feel very different about it. Allowing them freedom to delve is not.

The fact you have taken gender related issues and gone on the usual sexuality witch hunt actually shows much more of your agenda than you seem to be aware of yourself. You are not alone. Thousands like you do the same thing. It is a difficult subject to get your head around when it's not you who is affected. My advice would be is if it does not affect you then don't talk about something you know (seemingly) little about OR learn something more factual on the subject and put your energies into allowing it to sink in. Not everything is a sexual conspiracy and that include gender issues particularly.

When I was little children we were made to conform to stereotypes that now do not hold up in a more educated and freer (for some) world. We now all have more rights, for one thing, to protect from the hate speech and agenda of some in society who would oppress and supress anything they themselves find 'different' or offensive. What is it they fear, I wonder, when it does not affect them?


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:14 AM

Sorry Al, cross posted, I know you're a real nice guy, but sometimes folks have to question what is happening in modern society.

The analogy of my friends is pertinent, no child was ever put under pressure to address their sexuality in my young days.

Play was an important part of growing up, after puberty people were able to accept their gender roles without difficulty.

We must not pressurise our children, simply because a tiny minority of adults have problems dealing with their sexuality.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 06:05 AM

Interviewed??.....these people are some of my personal friends.
Our school had thirty -five pupils, all taught in one classroom, it was like a huge family....none have changed gender, all seem to be happy and living a normal life.

The ones who moved away, are still in touch with the locals.
I have come to understand that life is controlled by ones upbringing, security in the home, and just the right amount of personal freedom, without the huge pressures that children face today.

Children have become a marketing target for selling and indoctrination, childhood is disappearing, eroded by people who shamelessly use kids to try to advance their strange agenda.

I really fear for the safety of tomorrows children.

As Burns famously said...... "and furrit tho' ah canna see,
                              ah guess.... and fear!"


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:50 AM

Ake, old pal, you should try listening to what these people are saying.

they have described their lives to you and you are not listening.

little tomboys is one thing, transexual is quite another.

child abuse is quite another - no one is standing up for it.

i'm sure there are some people on this site who will accuse you of wilful misunderstanding. its too easy to point such a finger. its quite as bad as what you're doing.

you're being judgemental. there is no point in aspiring to be more 'normal'; more this or that than what we are. we are what we are.

try to be grateful and understanding of diversity. like i am asking the site to be understanding of your diversity.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 05:45 AM

I asked for evidence, not unsupported anecdotes. Have you interviewed every one of those former tomboys to ensure they are really happy and well-adjusted? Would they tell you even if they weren't. Facts, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:59 AM

Read this and weep, if people want something to be "phobic" about, they should stat with the disgusting, child abusing media.
This story, or one very similar, was broadcast on BBC radio 4, unbelievably the creature sent out to interview the little girl(who wanted to be a boy) told her how brave she was to address her sexuality so early in life. He asked when she started having these feelings. The child responded "when I was four...I think".

When I was a boy, out in the country, ALL girls were "tomboys", they climbed trees, raced, played "Cowboys and Indians", they were happy normal kids. We were very poor and all wore utilitarian cloths mostly home made, seldom new.

All of these girls grew up to be happy well adjusted women and almost all of them produced children and are now proud grandparents.

Many of these "tomboys" still live in this area and still keep in touch with old chums who have moved away.

This sort of behaviour in children is normal and not a sign of sexual aberration.
The aberration comes from those who try to turn normal childish behaviour into a sensational media story......I call it child abuse!!

Child abuse


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 04 Oct 15 - 03:31 AM

Hence the well known expression,"It takes one to know one"?

Transphobia probably has similar causes and is probably particularly prevalent amongst 'hetero' males in particularly macho jobs- military, police etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 08:35 PM

Being bi or gay was taken off the medical books a long time ago as being a mental health issue, ie psychological.

Interestingly, the latest research shows that you are not born with bigotry - you learn it or it occurs in your own mind often based on ignorance or fear ei psychological - and that homophobia is most prevalent in closeted gay males!

Harvard study on homophobia in males will give you the gist.

There is no evidence at all that being bi or gay is psychological in origin no more than being straight is. It occurs quite naturally and, most likely, is hard wired before we are born. Thus, it has an organic origin albeit the wiring is in the brain.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 07:25 PM

i remember thirty odd yearsago i had a residency in a gay bar in Barnsley.

i remember telling a fiend and he was amazed.....a gay bar in Barnsley!.....where were all these people in years past...

in hiding, i guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 06:24 PM

Yep, my comment was aimed at a guest who was having a go at me but who had posted in the wrong thread and whose comment has now disappeared. It's hard to make any sense of it all now. Just ignore it!


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 06:18 PM

Evidence, Akenaton?


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 06:12 PM

I think that in most cases it is much more likely to be psychologically based......


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 01:00 PM

@ Ellen

I figured something had been said but that Steve was not aiming the comment to me. I could be wrong but you are of the same mind, thanks

@ punfolkrocker

You never can tell and what does it matter? You are who you are :)

What I read loudly from your quick bio is that you were open to others being open. No closed mind. That is all that counts. You can never be what you cannot be. I have seen girls going after gay men and trying to 'covert them' but it cannot be done if they are gay. Likewise, some straight guys seem to think all a gay woman needs is the right man to show her a good time!

Some bigots use twin studies to show how sexuality is not genetic just because the so-called 'gay gene' has not been found. But you can have identical twins where one is bi and the other straight. It is very easily explained too when we invoke epigenetics and the hormonal environment in utero where one twin gets more or less blood supply than the other. Indeed it is common. It is highly likely gay gene will never be found as it is probably a whole subset of genes that need to be influenced some way to make it happen.

Thankfully my sexuality was a walk in the park to deal with after all the trans stuff I went through. It's not a great influence on my life at all. I am grateful that music has been with me like forever :)


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 12:25 PM

From the age of about 12, me & my mates and wider peers,
were influenced [a certain minority here might shout brainwashed]
by all kinds of post 'summer of love' pop culture;
that open mindedness to personal sexual liberation and freedom and experimentation
was the cool superior way of being - the new positive future
for our young generation of students / musicians / artists / actors....

From 70s Glam Rock to 80s New Romantics, we grew through teens to early 20s
to accept bisexuality as a cool viable option;
maybe even an expectation or obligation to conform to this newly establishing norm and try it at least one time..

Though I never actually did...
I went to plenty of gigs and parties, even gay pubs, so there was no lack of opportunity...???

I knew enough gay men wanted me.. quite flattering to my young ego I guess..

I just didn't fancy blokes.. not even the pretty ones in make up.

One boozy night though, a guy sat down next to me on a sofa in the student union,
and suddenly put his arm round my shoulders and began licking my ear..
I froze in discomfort...... told him I wasn't up for it, and made a dash for the bar.

By the time I reached 25 I just finally accepted that I had no sexual interest in blokes,
and despite my progressive ideological mindset, it was nothing I should feel guilty about.

However my younger sibling, after suicide attempts,
and long spell in residential mental healthcare, did come out to the family as gay.

Odd really, We both grew up in the same council estate,
went to the same infant & primary schools.. ???

Yet I was the one who went to grammar school and 6th form college in the big town,
and hung around an arty, druggy, bohemian scene,
acted in youth theatre and played in punk bands, and had outrageous gay mates..

While sibling went to the local council estate comprehensive, ended up in conventional 9 - 5 office and shop jobs..
and did normal 'straight' evening & weekend pastimes like piano lessons and dog obedience training and shows...

..and.. I was the one stern old uncles had suspicions and concerns about....

Life just seems to confound expectations.... 😕


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 11:31 AM

I think Steve's comment relates to a deleted comment not to Mauvepink!


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:59 AM

Don't talk to poor Megan like that!   :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:59 AM

Given that VERY few people are uber male or uber female, uber straight or uber gay, we ALL sit at some point on the axis of gender and sexuality. Unless it is someone I would wish to have aphysical relationship with it does not matter one hoot to me how they define themselves regarding their sexuality. Whilst I physically am attracted to women, I love men and women quite happily because sex is not the centre of my universe.

I have no idea what 'caused' me to be as and who I am. The recent, and rapidly evolving, field of epigenetics covers so many wonderous concoctions of nature and nuture affecting so many animals in very different ways.

Many of us are hard wired toward being a certain type of being well before we are born (in utero where hormonal highs and lows can really effect more than just physical sexual characteristics) and then the rest is down to environmental effects from all sorts of directions (not least our parents and immediate surroundings).

There is no 'set model' for any animal, human or non human; just a blueprint that has all sorts of things that can be changed as it gets built.

In my case I do not think any estrogenic chemicals ever got a chance to affect my body in any way I would not have welcomed. The chances are my 'fate' was sealed before I was born. That said, I have no regrets for myself. I do regret having caused people who know me pain and hardship at times (often when I had no idea that was what I was doing). I would certainly go about the whole transition process different BUT would still transition.

I do not pretend to be perfect or anyone's cup of tea. All I know is that I am happy and function better now as a whole human being than at any time in my life. I am individual. Just like all of you :)

I do thank those of you who have obviously thought more deep about the topic for your input and insight :)


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:44 AM

why can't folks jist be folks I diny gie a damb if they are tartan wie a majinty border as long as they treat folk decent.


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:43 AM

seeing as I haven't read any textbooks in any subject for at least 25 years..

my grasp of concepts and terminology might be a bit dodgy... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:39 AM

I also studied a bit of socio biology for my degree,
in considering various theories on the wide spectrum / diversity of human gender & sexuality.
But best to leave that well alone as it is a science more often abused by reactionaries and bigots
to explain / define / categorise 'abnormalities' and 'deviants' for their own pernicious ideological agendas....


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Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:37 AM

As a biology graduate, may I ask that you couch it in slightly less technical language so that I can understand it? :-)


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