BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 10:29 AM

I got grade B in my Biology O level in 1975 - so that makes me an expert....

I vaguely remember reading that all human embryos [when they are still eggs] start off female,
but have the potential to change into tiny little bloke babies
if one of Daddies loud mouthed aggressive male chromosome spunk tadpoles
competes and wins the race to barge into the egg first.

So yeah it makes much sense that environmental pollutants
can disrupt, damage, and mutate the delicate balance
of genetic precarious male or female default chemistry in our bollock bags... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 15 - 09:32 AM

so essentially - what you're saying:-

we're all turning into women, because of chemicals. the ones that have worked on frogs and mice.

the implication being that our mauvepink friend is a victim of these chemicals

seems abit half arsed to me. There have always been byways and off piste bits of sexuality in human kind. look at Isherwoods Berlin. that's nearly 80 years ago.

as one of the characters in Goodbe to Berlin sain, eventually we're all queer....

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 01:17 PM

Of course it was a joke!
The guy on the ESC has a problem, or he's a self publicist.
Certainly didn't do him any harm, but now he'll be quietly forgotten about......it'll never catch on!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 12:49 PM

:)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:26 AM

[blame me for the bad gerkin gag - well.. it's the weekend...]

Yeah.. I'd hate to live in a world were serious subject matter and a healthy ribald sense of humour is not allowed to co-exist positively...

I've learnt that from my old mum [83 this year] and my nan before her [died age 80 with a 'boyfriend' in his 40s]

I know if I were to ever tell my mum I needed gender reassignment surgery
there'd be no end of genuine loving support
or rib tickling near the knuckle filthy jokes about it.... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:20 AM

I saw the post in question and my first reaction, knowing the poster of old, was that it was insulting, offensive etc. etc. However, and this is something I don't often find myself doing, I think I may be able to explain that it was a (poor) joke about the effects of estrogenic chemicals rather than an overt attempt to offend anyone. I could be wrong of course but in this case I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:13 AM

Apologies... I was GUEST at 2/10/15 10.56AM. Would a mud elf kindly put my nick to it? Thank you :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

I, too, see a post has gone missing so am not sure if it is a glitch or a mud elf who has removed it. Either way, I hope my post is allowed to stay in answer to the transphobic remark that was issued and in hope of clearing up any misunderstanding about Conchita Wurst and the Eurovision.

He really suffered a great deal in order to make the point he did and, because of the discussion he launched on the whole topic of trans, TV/CD, drag, and the differences he does deserve better treatment than he often gets.

This has happened before. The dragkings and transvestites stood alongside each other and gay peers at the Stonewall Inn to highlight the great discriminations against the gay community way back when. That started a whole change of attitude and education. Conchita Wurst is, I believe, along such lines as those involved with Stonewall. They are no threat to anyone's gender, no more than transsexual folk are. They just want to live unhampered and unmolested for the most part

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:56 AM

'The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of an eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract.' Oliver Wendell Holmes

Conchita Wurst has never referred to himself as a woman and nor does he identify as one. He has stated uneqivocably that he is happy being a man in a dress and does not in any way wish to be confused. In his own words "I'm strict about the difference. What I do is performance, it's staged, it's glamour – it's not real life. But for trans people, being born in the wrong body – there's nothing glamorous or easy about that."

It really is time some people learned the difference of the reality and not the fantasy that goes off in their own minds that they see as fact. Adding transphobia to a CV of ignorance says more about the person dishing it out than the person it is aimed at.

Gladly, the majority of people are not affected by such discrimination and hate. Cheap shots and insults, as opposed to true humour and laughing with someone instead of at them, separates the men for the boys in more ways than one it seems!

Mauvepink

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM

The corny music hall culture gerkin gag was in response to an exchange between *k* and another mudcat poster,
which have vanished while I| was posting.
Not meant in disrespect to anyone else here.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:47 AM

On the subject of cross dressing, gender reassignment, and cheap laughs;
if only Les Dawson were still alive.

"oooh, preserve gender ?, what a lot of fuss about such a little thing,
the mother in law could have sworn it was a pickled gerkin !"

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 09:27 AM

@ Big Al Whittle

Al, there is much research going on at the moment about estrogenic chenmicals leaching into water (from plastics and plastic linings in some canned foods) that is ellegedly causing men's sperm counts to drop drastically and, in some instance, have feminising effects. Behaviour is already being reported as being changed by effects caused in utero The frogs and mice show effects in other studies. So not only physical but emotional changes are being seen.

It has been known for a couple of decades at least and there is no shortage of scientific papers on the research

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 08:24 AM

@ Dave the Gnome

I could tell you some stories of things that have happened and comments from both genuine folk and numpties. I wrote a song about some of it and it always goes down well lol ;)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 08:02 AM

how do the frogs relate to subject?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:50 AM

Forgot to add my 2 funny(ish) stories of transgender people I have met. The first was Harold who became Heather. I was warned that she was a 'bit odd' by my boss at the time. When we met I could not see much odd and put it down to prejudice by the boss. When Heather started to smoke a pipe I realised what the boss meant :-)

The second was Paul who became Paula. We had an all night job to do migrating some software from one hardware platform to another. After a couple of hours of me sat at a console with Paula looking over my shoulder I offered her my chair. Not out of any false courtesy but simply because she had been stood up a couple of hours. No thanks, she said. I am still sore after the op... I didn't know where to look and after a couple of minutes she burst out laughing with 'You should see the look on your face' :-D Very funny lady who went on to become a popular children's entertainer.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:48 AM

@ Dave the Gnome. How very kind of you :)

I keep threatening to go to Skipton but Monday has been my first night of a long week with work the next day. My new job may give me a Tuesday off so the 100 mile round trip is enticing. I am on leave w/c 26th so be careful what you wish for! I don't know the Keighley club but will look it up. I have sung near Hebden Bridge and found Yorkshire folk very friendly when I have been on the borders near Blackburn and Oswaldtwistle. TBH, music is an oil that keeps many cogs happily lubricated between people who are open to diversity :)

I hope you are happy where you are and have kept your Lancashire passport should you ever venture back! lol

THank you for sticking your neck out... it really is appreciated. Yourself and several others have kept my status here on these boards confidential and that has been appreciated a great deal over time

Best wishes to you and all on here :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:34 AM

:-) Not sadly at all, MP, it was my pleasure. I can confirm to all detractors that everything you say about gender and sexuality being immaterial is true.

I have moved out of the area now and if ever you find yourself up in the Skipton or Keighley areas get in touch. I am sure you will find an equal welcome at either club there (Monday and Friday respectively)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 05:46 AM

Sadly, for you, yes we did Dave.

Without any wish to embarass you... your acceptance of me that night, and the club generally, is how I find most people on the music scene. I sing in a lot of places and have only have come across two "folkies" who had any kind of problem with me (at least to my face)

I am hard on the ears and eyes I guess but folks like yourself - with the openess and acceptance they show me - on enriches my life further :)

There are several members on these boards who have met me and sang both with me and been where I have been singing. My trans status never seems to bother any of them. They just see me as another singer :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 05:34 AM

Did we meet once at Swinton, MauvePink?

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 05:31 AM

@ Richard Bridge

Hi Richard. The topic is extremely complex and I would fear that trying to explain a great deal of it would bring out the worse in some who, unlike you, are unprepared to accept transsexuality and give equal measure to all. It was not lost on me that you did say you are prepared to accept equality between cis and trans folk.

Were we to have a national screening programme, looking and the genes of "biological" males and females we would find all sort on anomalies that would point to many not being 'truly' male or 'truly' female and yet their biological appearance (secondary sexual characteristics) would be what was initially recorded on their birth certificates: ie., this body had a penis or a vagina on such and such a date when they were born. Even ibtersex folk are given one or the other label and yet are of 'indeterminate sex' according to whoever sees them into the world. Thankfully the rushed decisions and butchery that used to go on in deciding how a person should be made to look is rapidly being dumped in place for patience and a "let's see and wait" policy.

You may or may not agree but one thing I know is that having a penis or a vagina is not what makes you a man or a woman. A soldier who has his penis shot off does not become a woman (though he may feel much less a man!).

Argument is rife, both in the trans and gay communities, about what is what. The research is scanty (no money in it) except for the dedicated. I actually have had less problems from straight folk than I have from some radical lesbian feminists and trans women when it comes to slinging mud and calling names. Minorities can be terrible to other minorities at times. Basically I just get on with my life because the vast majority of people, straight, gay, bi or trans are not that bothered. My time of self analysis and concern for "Why" went a long time ago. Life has far greater challenges and rewards.

But as trans is to do with gender, and straight, gay, bi has to do with sexuality, it becomes areal mish-mash of concern to some when they try to figure it.

Personally I have no prurient interest in other's sexualities or what they do with each other. That is their business if it is consensual,legal and is not affecting me. I am more bothered in what someone has between the ears than between their legs. Whilst I identify as gay I have no ill will against men. I love men... but not physically.

Times are rapidly changing (I wonder what lyrics Bob Dylan would now add to his song?). Everyone is very different and individual. No trans person is the same as another, no more than a cis male or female is the same as their own peers. In the main we all have a great deal more in common than we do not BUT what makes us interesting is that difference. Just as the 1% of difference between chimps and humans makes for huge difference.

I eat and sleep like you. I work and pay taxes like you. In the last week I have been made redundant and, luckily, got another job on Monday. I bleed the same, I cry the same, I smile and feel joy, anxiety and love.

The one area that affects me the most is my voice. I detest it. Others love it. I love singing and I love music. I am on mudcat for the music, mostly, but do enjoy discussion on other things too (away from any bigotry).

I hope I have answered some of your questions. I do not need to like you physically to respect you. I suspect you are saying the same about me all in all? Where our physical boundaries are set is different in everyone. I'm not that different except I chose to make my body more congruous to my emotional soma

As for the word manifest. As I say, I do not see myself as any kind of manifestation. I am simple living my life as a contributing human being within the community and society I live. I am just me :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 11:58 AM

"I concede that the eye may be deceived and that touch may also mislead."


Warning - do not get too drunk in bars in Thailand.

Then again.. if you wake up next morning with a big smile on your face,
friends and family back home need ever know.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 11:52 AM

Mauvepink, I merely wished to avoid implying that a former woman who appears to be a man, and a former man who appears to be a woman (the former being a transman and the latter a transwoman) are not merely exercising a lifestyle choice. I am open to a better word than "manifest". The gender descriptor applies to the outward appearance, the clothing, the social conduct.

In that sense I would not describe someone biologically male but who appeared to be female, but whose sexual preference was for sex with women, as a transwoman. I have not to date seen any serious consideration of the concept of a biologically male lesbian, or a biologically female gay man. Can you direct me to sensible debate on the matter?

Be that as it may I am (as far as I know) exclusively sexually attracted to the biologically female although I concede that the eye may be deceived and that touch may also mislead.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 07:27 AM

No its just that we obviously have a personality problem Joe. :0)

You're one of the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 05:02 AM

I rather like the Opposite Sex.

Does this make me a horrible person?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 04:33 AM

Funny how motivations in debate appear; couldn't you have been more open when debating on other threads, it would have contextualised your stance.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 09:04 PM

No transwoman MANifests herself as anyone other than herself and not all transwomen have a wish to "get it on" with men.

This transwoman loves men but has no wish to wake up with one as I am also gay. Why do so many men think they are the dream come true of transwomen? If it is truly a man's world I am happy being a woman in i

I'm only here for the music :)

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 07:17 PM

you think screwing frogs can make you queer....?

try not to worry

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:17 PM

Forgive me for being serious. Or don't forgive me; I don't care.

With glyphosate destroying gender in frogs and other water creatures, how long do you think it will take before humans are affected. It is a known that hormones and environmental toxins are clearly affecting gender in humans.

If you have a concern: do something!

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 01:16 PM

that's interesting Mcgrath, but I assume bert was commenting on the usual meaning of the word. I have heard that there are instances of adding ...other.. to male or female to whichever box the person wishes to tick .

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 12:49 PM

Gender actually means kind, so there are millions of genders. Being a Mudcatter means belonging to that gender, and so does being a Mormon. And so of course does being male or female.

I suppose it got used as a replacement for "sex" because some people think it's a bit naughty to say the word.

I think it is high time the original mean got revived and preserved.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 11:44 AM

There is a difference between gender and biological sex. And while I am very prepared to approve of equality between cis and trans people of the same gender, I really could not, I think, get it on with a trans woman (for the benefit of the ignorant that is a person who is biologically male but manifests as a woman).

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 08:35 AM

... you know all that early 1970s Glam Rock androgyny,
and bisexuality is cool and the future lifestyle sexuality of mankind....
and similar early 1980s New Romantic gender bending...

well being smart progressive arty farty daring youths
me and my mates dabbled with a bit of eyeshadow and face paint at gigs & parties for a laugh..

but when it came to snogging other blokes....
nah.. too stubbly and beery breathed, and they don't have knockers and foofs...

So that was the end of that trendy late 20th Century cultural engineering experiment as far as we were concerned... 😜


...mind you though, one of my girl friends did get some kind of kinky thrill from putting make up on me..
those long ago passionate nights are some great memories
now that I'm a boring conventional old fat married bloke with bad feet and sciatica..............

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:18 AM

Formaldehyde is pretty good for preserving pigs' willies.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 06:13 AM

It's made by Hartleys. Gender Preserve, Next to the Strawberry Jam at Morrisons...

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:45 AM

Humour. It seems to have bypassed you, sour Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 04:09 AM

Given that nature has managed perfectly well on its own for millions of years, I not sure what contribution you intend to bring?

Subject: RE: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 04:01 AM

Which is why cricket boxes were invented.

Subject: BS: RE, Vital to preserve gender.
From: Bert
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 03:33 AM

If we didn't we wouldn't be here.