Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Dan Evergreen
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 07:46 PM

Woundwort was a Hitler if you were Pipkin.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 06:20 PM

Two big heavy ppbks on the man - that does seem a bit steep, even for a complex man! Could that perhaps be transatlantic title changing going on?

Penny

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: paddymac
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 06:09 PM

Dame Antonia has also penned "Cromwell: The Lord Protector". It's a bit over 700 pages of text in paper back. It's been sitting on my shelf for two years now, but I confess I've done naught but an occasional scan with it. It makes a dandy paperweight, however.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 04:45 PM

Bruce O, thanks for the correction. I'm writing on my lap, and the book is on the top shelf on the other side of the room, and if I put the machine down, it crashes!

A problem with the book is that Firth does not give references to the source documents. I think that "Cromwell - Our Chief of Men" by Antonia Fraser has much better references, but I have lent my copy somewhere, and have no idea where, so I can't check it.

Penny

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 04:07 PM

And the mighty tree of American democracy was chopped most of the way through during Shays Rebellion, tipped and cracked during the Palmer Raids, Stripped of leaves and bark by Joe MacCarthy, dried out by the propaganda of TV culture, made into a 2 by 4 by Richard Milhouse Imperial Presidency Nixon, made into a toothpick by Regenomics, but is being watered in the way Jefferson meant it to be in Seatle last week, so... should we thank Cromwell? Hmmmmmmmmm

all the best

In One Big Union

Larry

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Pete peterson
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 03:45 PM

And I can remember the way in which English and French agitators encouraged each other. There was a broadside put out at the time of the Spithead mutiny in 1797 that went something like "For some time now, the English and French have taken turns cutting of the head of kings. The French did it last." Very few people manage to be totally and completely evil. I don't think Cromwell was one of them. As Shambles has pointed out, he never managed to have total and absolute power, or he would not have had to try to convince people against their will. "I beseech ye. . ." As an American, one of the Good Things he did without intending to was to distract the English from controlling every aspect of life in the colonies until they had a tradition of some "democracy" to go on. . . and that seed grew into a mighty tree by the 1770s. (this is the argument made in The Cousins' Wars) If I were Irish, I would probably feel very strongly about what he did to the Irish, starting with Drogheda! Even W.S. Churchill is unable to conceal his dislike for the man. (my starting point for almost all English history) Anyway. . .

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Bruce O.
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 03:04 PM

That's Charles Harding Firth. See www.bookfinder.com for his histories, very good ones.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 03:00 PM

If you actually do want quotes, there are some in C M Firth's biography, which I have in an Everyman edition. This was the first written with access to Cromwell's own documents and attempted to counter the centuries of royalist propaganda. He did not attempt to justify Cromwell's Irish actions, or the execution at Burford. He did suggest that the intelligence from Ireland during the preceding attempt to gain freedom had seriously exaggerated deaths during the action into a major atrocity of Balkan proportions, and that Cromwell believed this. He does not regard this as an excuse. It does seem that Cromwell would have regarded his actions as politics, as he saw Ireland as a route for royalist re-invasion of England, and he wanted to prevent this. The whole business in Ireland, which was as appalling as the events of the end of this century, seems very complex, as does the character of Cromwell himself. It does seem to me that the use of Cromwell as a target can result in attention being drawn away from other ill-doers. It is a very odd partnership in which the Irish join with the royalists.

As to the results of his rule, Britain had seen a temporarily successful revolution. Who else had got even that far? It was with the background of that that later revolutionaries knew it could be done. Without a general able to defeat the Stuarts, who knows what would have happened, or not happened?

Penny

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 02:58 PM

On the subject of the film. Is it not also ironic that Charles I, was played by someone called Guiness?

Black humour, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 02:37 PM

No, George I'm not trolling (which I understand to mean being frivolously and insincerely provocative)

The point I was making about Stalin and Lenin wasn't to equate them with Cromwell. (And I don't imagine yiou were intending to equate Charles I with Hitler, though it almost ereasds at one point as if you are.)

At this point in history, it's easy enough for socialists to recognise that Stalin (and I'd say Lenin) did enormous harm to socialism, by identifying it in people's minds with cruel and incompetant totalitarian government.

I think it would have been pretty easy for radical republicans in the time of the Restoration to make the same kind of judgement about Cromwell.

Yes, he was a brilliant war commander, and without him it is quite likely that a Parliamentary victory would not have been achieved. (And you could say similar things of Lanein and Stalin.) But as a ruler, he discredited the ideals that he had seemed to represent, and the experience of his time in power was a barrier to moves towards democracy. The Commonwealth was a historical cul-de-sac.(And you could say similar things of Lenin and Stalin, and the Soviet system.)

If anything it got worse rather than better for ordinary people after the Restoration, and subseqently with "The Glorious Revolution". It was 1832 before the Reform Act. It was 1829 before Catholic Emancipation.It was 1999 before the House of Lords got its partial comeuppance. The Hereditary Monarchy is is no danger.

So far as Ireland is concerned Cromwell was just another in a line of oppressors, worse than many because more efficient. I think it is a mistake to talk of him as uniquely evil. It was to get worse over the next century and a half.

I can understand that from an English viewpoint it is possible to see the Irish side of it as peripheral, though regrettable. I can't see it that way, because for me Cromwell's role in Ireland is central and Cromwell's role in England is peripheral. But in any case, as I explained, I do not see how his influence on English history has been in any significant way beneficial.

And yes, Harlow is geographically in Essex. Notting Hill is in London.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Mbo
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 09:49 AM

Maybe he should have followed his own advice. I think he just should have stuck to politics instead of a misguided mission to destroy evil from the earth, or whatever.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 09:28 AM

I don't really know if the simple words good or bad can ever be used to describe the whole of a person's life or the effect they may have had on the world around them. Cromwell did however come up with a quotation that has guided me well throughout my life. I have posted it here before, but with apologies to those who may have seen it before I would like to do so again.

"I beseech you, in the bowells of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken"

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Mbo
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 09:03 AM

The Haughs O' Cromdale to you to, George!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: GeorgeH
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 09:00 AM

More interesting comments. But McGrath of Harlow (Essex Irishman??) of course there's a case for saying Cromwell delayed democracy (and no, the UK does not yet have true democracy, nor will it after the abolition of the House of Lords). You can make a case for just about any interpretation of history as you like (but few as offensive as that I recently heard, from a couple of "respectable" UK academics, that the UK should have formed an alliance with Hitler rather than going to war with him). That's why I stuck to specific "artifacts" from his regime which were at least semi-official. Without wishing to defend Cromwell IN ANY WAY, he has suffered from an excess of propagandist "bad press" - from Irish sources (justified) and from generations of royalists (largely unjustified, in the context of their own "acheivements"). (A rare piece of Republican Irish /Royalist English collaboration, this!)

However when you write of a possible socialist viewpoint being that "Lenin and even Stalin did a lot of bad things, but they did advance the cause of socialism" I do wonder at your(trolling) analysis; as far as I can see socialists are the first to recognise that Lenin and Stalin did great harm to the cause of socialism, and it is hard to see any ground suggesting that view might change. And as for history "winding its way back" to a socialist consensus, outside the US the socialist influence on contemporary society is strongly evident - even though many of us look forward to the advance towards a more socialist world, which even embraces the good ol' US of A.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: AndyG
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 07:17 AM

Actually, I always loved the irony of Cromwell having his role in the biopic played by an Irishman.

AndyG

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Gint
Date: 06 Dec 99 - 07:10 AM

well said mick & paddymack Cromwell was as bad as has been said, but alot of the time it gets forgoton that theb uk had to put up with the man for a lot longer. and we had the levers thanks to him. a man rightfully hated by all sides.

all the best ferret

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 11:07 PM

Seriously, that mole was a turn-off as well. But like all tyrants (most leaders who're allowed to finish the job they started) he got his come-uppance. Having Richard Harris play you in your bio-pic has to be cruel and unusual punishment. Even Harris' buddy, Peter O'Toole called him the the "ultimate scenery chewer". Me, I just couldn't help thinking about "MacArthur Park".
Sometimes I'm amazed at how the imformation passed on to grade 7, 8, and 9 history students differs from country to country. As a Canadian kid I learned ONLY that Cromwell was a parliamentarian, who wanted the average man and woman to have a say in government. Seriously, I was taught that he was simply "one of the good guys".
One of the reasons that my schooling was a total disaster, was that my parents had a library and I became a print junkie at an early age. After you've plowed through some "real" books on history, written from different points of view, it's damned hard to take a school book seriously. I didn't.
Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Áine
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 09:57 PM

You've got it in one, Markf!

Slán, Áine

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: bunkerhill
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 09:06 PM

How could anything good come from someone who did not appreciate the beauty of the Burren?

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 08:43 PM

I think I've had this discussion a few times before. I think there's a good case for saying that Cromwell did more to delay true democracy than to bring it about. (That's on the arguable assumption that we've got it now, or ever have had it.)

Without Cromwell the war in England might have ended differently, though even then it might well have been not with a Royalist Victory, but with some patched up compromise, like they had after the Restoration. But without the memory of the Commonwealth, the idea of a Republic, or of a sovereign Parliament might not have been a dirty word for centuries. Maybe even in time a revolution that actually took root might have come about.

I suppose in a few hundred years, if history winds its way back to a consensus which is essentially socialist, there may be people who will cheerfully say that Lenin and even Stalin did a lot of bad things, but they did advance the cause of socialism. But we who are living now know that, especially for Stalin, that is the precise reverse of the truth.

As for Cromwell in Ireland - paddymac says it right. It's misreading history when we pick out Cromwell as if he was the sole architect of ethnic cleansing,murder and oppression. He was one of a long series, in Ireland, and in many many places. Not the first, not the last, not even yet by a long way.

Mind, one thing that set him apart from most of his predecessors and successors was that he couldn't stand Morris Dancers and Maypoles and all that Christmas stuff. I hate to think what he'd do to Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 08:14 PM

Well done, Paddymac. Sourced out and to the point. I was just about to write a response but I bow to the Master.

And while I may disagree on some of the opinions expressed, I must offer my congratulations to the parties on a debate carried out very well, and within the true spirit of the Mudcat. I have always felt that bards can debate controversial subjects in a reasonable manner. Who knows better than we about the propaganda put out on all sides. In the environment I was raised in, Cromwells name has been spat out. GeorgeH, you have given my much to ponder and read about. My view of this person will likely not change much. His acts in the land of my people were too horrendous. But my understanding of his motives and the surrounding issues will likely be enhanced. Thanks for the solid information. And thanks to Diesel for starting a very interesting thread.

Slán,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 08:05 PM

God love this crew! Having made my pilgramage to Montaillou, and even when playing the Uilleann pipes for Catholic mass, I have a Cathar cross sewed onto the bag cover of my pipes... I can only smile at the free association from Cromwell to Cathars. Bless us everyone, Merry Christmas, Happy Chanuka, Thoughtful Ramadan, and to all a good night!

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: paddymac
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:42 PM

Carl Jung would absolutely love the collective consciousness of our little corner of the universe. Where else would a simple and direct query as originally posted by Diesel (with appropriate disclaimers) lead to the brilliant debate reflected in the postings by Larry, GeorgeH, and Jack. I would only add (to Jack's post) that Pope Innocent III also qualifies as a "Hitler" if you were a Cathar caught up in the Albigensian Crusade when christians started killing christians in the name of christ. Innocent III went on to receive the Crown of England and the keys to the treasury from King John as part of their "deal" to excommunicate all those nasty barrons trying to secure their rights against the crown.

While Cromwell is indeed the most reviled figure in Britain's oppression of Ireland, genocidal policies actually started as early as 1521 when Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey, serving in the place of Kildare, told Cardinal Wolsey that Ireland "will never be brought to due obeisance, but only with compulsion and conquest." Asked to explain further, he made clear that he meant genocide- nothing less than the total extermination of the Irish race and their replacement by English settlers. Of course, this was before Henry VIII's split with Rome, so Henry told his ministers to "proceed politically, patiently and secretly" (Landon, 1981; "Erin & Britannia; Historical background to a Modern Tragedy. ISBN 0-88229-766x). Thus began the plantation system which went on to wreak untold havoc on Ireland, in America, and virtually any other place on the globe where the Empire extended its rapacious grab.

There is a sort ob balance, thought, at least as to Cromwell. He died a rather nasty death of a malarial "tertian ague" on sept 3, 1658. Upon restoration of the monarchy two years later, vengeful royalists dug up his well preserved body (a side effect of the arsenic used then to treat malaria) and hung him from Tyburn Tree, then decapitated him and spiked his head on the roof of Westminster Hall, where it stayed for 25 years, until it was blown down and landed at the feet of a sentry who, no doubt sensing a "windfall" (sorry, I just couldn't resist), took it home. A century later, an actor by the name of Josiah Wilkenson bought the head from a museum near Clare market for #230, and gained a measure of notoriety by taking it to parties. (the first "talking head"?) Wilkenson's grandson ultimately gave the head to Cromwell's alma mater, Sidney Sussex in Cambridge, where it was reportedly authenticated and rerburied on the grounds. (Wilkins, 1996; "Death: A History of Man's Obsessions and Fears", Barnes & Nobel Books)

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 04:39 PM

GeorgeH I do think a case can be made that the US war in Iraq is at the very least terrorism, as so much of the efforts are directed at civilan populations, to a degree that the euphamism of colateral damage makes many peoples skin crawl, and though I would not be as quick to use the word genocide, at this point in that instance, as I would in the attempts to depopulate areas of origional populations in Ireland and the US, an arguement may be made that it is indeed genocide, though an aspect of genocide is the intent to completely remove a population, as opposed to terrorism, the definition of which has become so politicized as to be obscured, but in its origional meaning - war against civilians. As a fan of highway man songs, I have to find a reference to return this to the intent of the board, though of course, folk musicians should be politically aware as we produce the music of the people, but anyway, the reference, there was a highwayman and pickpocket, who picked the pocket of both Charles and Cromwell, Ill look him up and post, looking for any good ballads on...

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 03:39 PM

The history of emperors and monarchs is a history of blood. Henry VIII was Hitler if you were catholic. The Ceasars were Hitlers if you were just about anybody but a Roman. The Pope was Hitler if you were Galileo. Robespierre was Hitler if you happened to get renounced in late 18th century France. Sheridan, Custer, et al were Hitler if you were native american.

Truth is, Hitler wasn't all the unusual. He just caught the century off-guard at a time when it had fooled itself into thinking the human race had gotten such stuff out of its system (at least that's what we thought in the Western Democracies). Then came Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Teng, Amin, Pol-Pot, Milosevic, Shah Pavli, Hassan Assad, Kissinger, and the rest of the usual suspects. We want to believe that Hitler represents some kind of anomaly because that way we can dismiss his kind as defeated.

T'were that it were (sigh).

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 01:36 PM

InOBU. I readily accept the wrongs of "my" nation; indeed I recognised those of Cromwell in my comments. And while I believe your claim of "genocide" by Cromwell in NI is actually inaccurate, and tending to devalue that word itself, my knowledge of that aspect of those times is far from great, and the semantics we use to describe the killing of innocents doesn't change the evil of the actions. (Has the US sought to carry out a policy of genocide in Iraq? I would say there was a stronger case for the use of that word in that case than of Cromwell in Ireland, although it remains the wrong term in that case as well).

However, my point is that while Hitler suppress original thought and debate throughout his time in power, at least in the early years of Cromwell both were encouraged, and some of the results have "resonated down the centuries". For that reason - and without in any way condoning the evil also committed during that period - I reject the comparison.

And why to I make such an issue of this? There remain too many enemies of individual freedom and power who would dearly love to discredit those messages of liberty and of the human spirit which emerge from, say, the Putney Debates. Dismissing Cromwell as a "Hitler" plays into the hands of those forces of repression.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Áine
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 10:58 AM

Beautiful and succinct, Larry. Maith thu!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 10:29 AM

Welcom the 'Cat, Larry. I really value your ideas and turn of phrase. I look forward to having your opinions with us in the future!

Cheers!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 10:24 AM

Hi GeorgeH: Comparisons in history are indeed dangerous, and often not helpful. On the other hand, what is meant by the comparison to Hitler is that in order to accomplish a political, social and ecconomic end, Hitler, Cromwell and Andrew Jackson committed genocide. One can make distinctions in scope, in the historical times in many ways, but if you are a Choctaw or Irish mother witnessesing the murder of your child before you are raped and murdered, those distinctions do not mean much. I have spent decades responding to the defensiveness of people about their history. Most large agressive nations have a lot to look at with some sense of remorse, which if we do not, England will again have its Jillianwallas, and America will again have its Mai Lais, Ireland will have its Balliseedies, and Germany will have its Bergin Belsons and the killing of the innocent will go on. GerogeH, like a parent who must see the wrongs a child does in order to be a responcible parent, a citizen or subject has to ackowlege the wrongs of ones government in order not to be the worst kind of trator, a trator to humanity. If you are ever in New York, I hope I can by you whatever you are drinking and we can toast to putting past behind us, but not by negating the wrongs of the past which make the present possible. Well, short of that, a drink to contiuned talk towards freindship and understanding. Slan Larry Otway

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 09:04 AM

But I liked Charles the First! He shouldn't have been killed!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Dec 99 - 08:58 AM

The comparisons between Cromwell and Hitler are as offensive as they are simplistic. Without wishing to support the (undoubted) wrongs Cromwell did - and he is hardly alone, in UK history, in treating the Irish as expendible in the "cause" of solving his "domestic" (i.e. English) difficulties there is much for which we should be grateful to him - including the first steps towards true democracy in England. And no, I'm not going to engage in futile argument on this.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 11:33 PM

Barry beat me to the quote I was going to pass on about Englands own Adolf. It was the Burren, a slate grey landscape, which gives one the feeling of being on the moon. I was deeply moved every time I was on the Burren, remembering that quote. It ranks with Andrew Jacksons statement, when driving the five civilized tribes out of Georgia, against the ruling of the US Supreme Court, that being, they have made their decision (The Court) now let them enforce it. Most countries have huge blindspots when it comes to their own history of genocide. As Phil Ochs said... Keep singing louder than the guns, Larry Otway

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Diesel
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 11:31 PM

Thanks folks

Aine - I have tried some of the engines before now but get bogged down in rubbish,You have given a few new names I've never heard of - I'm off to try them now - thanks

Mbo - Not to worry - the reason for the search is a good one and worth the input.I'm not out to improve the man's name by a longshot - just to learn...

Agus A Mairtin , Is feachfaidh liom an leabhair amarch.

Is Mise

Diesel

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 11:24 PM

I find the statement "Cromwell's depth of feeling" lacking, isn't it "thirst for blood". "I hate this &%$#@ country, not a tree to hang one (Irishman) from nor a drop of water to drown one in nor a enough earth to bury one in". Said something to that effect (about the Burren), I believe, while taking one of his, quite, pleasant, casual head hunting, blood curdling, mid morning, strolls. Barry

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Mairtin
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 11:06 PM

You could try to find a copy of Cromwell's Letters and Speeches by Thomas Carlyle. Fear coir, dar leis fhein.

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Áine
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:57 PM

Diesel,

Here is a list of search engines. Please use these to search for the information that you require. I think you'll find plenty of quotations to keep you busy.

Northern Light Search - http://www.northernlight.com/search.html

Yahoo! - http://www.yahoo.com/

WebCrawler - http://www.webcrawler.com/

Direct Hit Home - http://www.directhit.com/

Starting Point (TM) - http://www.stpt.com/

AltaVista: Main Page - http://www.altavista.com/

Welcome to Dogpile - http://www.dogpile.com/

Subject: RE: Help: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Mbo
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:50 PM

I don't think I could bear to type that man's name into a search engine. Too much like Hitler.

Subject: Oliver Cromwell quotations
From: Diesel
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 10:46 PM

Folks

I do not wish to start (dis)agreemnts on this discussion line - its too valuable a site for that.

But I am interested in Locating some quotations from Oliver Cromwell - specifically on his depth of feelings for the Irish poeple.A colleague of mine has seen fotage of a documentary where they quoted Cromwell when discribing the Irish in 'not so glorifying terms' much rather the opposite.

Anybody know where I might search for these ?

thanks

Diesel