BS: Tory party conference

Subject: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 05:26 PM

So, it would seem that Theresa May is somewhat to the right of Mr Farage.

And Boris Johnson has the temerity to accuse supporters of Jeremy Corbyn of having 'vested interests'. and the Tories don't?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 05:41 PM

Aye, the turkeys voted for Christmas......necks out lads and lasses, here it comes!
And the feeble-minded will continue to be bamboozled into voting for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 06:34 PM

What Woodie said.

If the ballot box will not bring the toffs down, then there has to be another way. Ireland 1916 or 1966 anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 08:48 PM

my mum is 83.

Today I had to visit her while the nurse from the memory clinic made an assessment
One of the standard questions is "Do you know who the prime minister is ?"

Mum stumbled on this question.. frustratingly trying to dig deep in her mind..

"Ooh.. I know who he is.. I know his face.. I know his horrible face.. he's that tory..."

You could savour the disgust in the tone of her voice as she spat out the word "tory" - it was brilliant... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:21 AM

That should have been 1922.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 03:43 AM

Right!... I accept that you are probably all Labour voters and I am certainly a socialist, but on one particular issue the Tory party have now altered their view and agree with Mr Farage that unlimited immigration is madness.....we have net immigration of 350000 per annum when only a tear ago Mr Cameron was talking about "tens of thousands". £50000 and rising......for ever?

We also have the grave danger of refugees and economic migrants arriving from the Middle East and North Africa, without adequate checks being done on their status......I and others have warned of this scenario for years on these pages and you sneered and insulted

Don't let you ideology blind you to the reality of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:13 AM

And you wonder why people sneer at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:51 AM

We who pointed out the idiocy have been proved correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:57 AM

Realism in politics is imperative.

I don't agree with 90% of Tory policy, but policies should be viewed on merit not through the prism of ones ideology.

A remark like "And you wonder why people sneer at you" is completely meaningless in the context of debate.

It is simply Mr Shaw attempting to be a smart arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:59 AM

ask the guys at calais about our policy of 'unlimited immigration'
do you kippers ever think that maybe immigration is not the major problem facing our countries? could it just be a distraction for the dull-witted and racists who will vote for a party who cut their wages, sell-off vital public services, slash benefits and victimise our young people - as long as they can pretend to talk tough on foreigners.
these tories are eagerly getting stuck into the job of decimating the nature of our state - no matter how many folk come here or leave is insignificant until these criminals are stopped.
and when they are we can start paying people in this country proper wages, restore rights at work and stop our well-qualified workers leaving.
in the care sector the charity i work for can't afford to pay workers properly, so have difficulty in recruiting and retaining staff. there are hardly any immigrants round here to 'do the low paid work that the brits won't do' so our company is in danger of having to downsize/close while trying to get the existing workers to work longer hours. we have already lost sick pay, some holidays and maternity rights. and all this while the disabled people are losing allowances and benefits and workers are due to have their tax credits cut.
sorry for moaning about my work but even there i hear folk going on about being swamped and the dangers of sharia law (in cumbria? really?) it's the duty of all of us to not be taken in by all the media/tory lies and distortions. keep your focus on the problem - it's capitalism- sanctioning racist attitudes towards imaginary demons is not the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 06:52 AM

achmelvich, in the first few sentences of your excellent post above you've aptly described The Tory party here in the U.S. (Republicans) and the racist dullards who make up a sizable chunk of their constituency.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 07:08 AM

Brilliant post, achmelvich. Are you listening, akenaton? As you're so obsessed with immigration (a handy enough topic to keep you away from your other aberrations I suppose), perhaps you can tell us all about the damage it's doing. About how hardly any immigrants come here for a life on benefits, that would be a good start. About how the people who employ them on criminally low wages and in terrible conditions are nearly always British. Before you launch into your litany of the evils of foreigners again, perhaps you could keep at the back of your mind that you'll be talking about actual human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 07:13 AM

Great post Achmelvich - hats off to you! 👍

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 07:16 AM

its sad that sensible debate is not possible on this subject on this forum?

quite predictable is the stream of abuse from the usual suspects.

it is an interesting subject, worthy of debate and it would interesting to know how our different experiences could provide enlightenment and discussion.

however you may as well close the thread now.

lets cut to the chase. this thread merely provides for unpleasant people with a talent for abuse, an interstice in which they can and will exercise their talents.
lets avoid the unpleasantness - cut it off at source.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 07:39 AM

I think that most people agree that unlimited immigration is not sustainable, but it was the language that Theresa May was using. Immigrants are taking our jobs, immigrants are forcing wages down, they are a strain on our services.
I found the following comments from Tom Bradby (ITV political commentator) quite interesting---------

He wrote, on his Facebook page.......


Sometimes, politicians do things that are really hard to understand.

Theresa May has just given a rather tough speech to the Tory Conference. In it, she said of immigration that the 'net economic and fiscal effect is close to zero.'

But here are a few obvious problems with that.

1) It was her government that promised more than five years ago to reduce immigration to the 'tens of thousands' so her speech can be read as an attack on her own policy and record in government.

2) We have no control over our borders because citizens of EU member states can come here at will. So far as I am aware, the government has no plans to attempt to change this.

3) The OBR (the independent statistical body set up by the government itself) issued a detailed study a few years ago on the long term impact of immigration on the public finances. It came up with some stark conclusions; if net immigration runs at a level of 140,000 per year for the next fifty years, our debt to GDP ratio would be 99%. But cut immigration to zero, it concluded, and you'd end up with a ratio of 174%. In other words, in a country with an ageing population as we are, a reasonable level of immigration is essential to keeping the public finances healthy. This is because most immigrants are educated elsewhere (which saves us a lot of money) and quite often return to their countries of origin in retirement (saving us a fortune in health and social care).

Of course, it is possible Theresa May doesn't actually read her government's own statistics but someone in her office surely must. And it is certainly hard to see how they fit with her claims today.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 07:43 AM

There has been no stream of abuse. Well, unless we classify my being called a smart arse as a stream of abuse (I don't). What's yer beef, Al?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:15 AM

The Lib Dems and Labour also say that immigration is too high, and damagingly so.

They also accept that wages of low and unskilled are driven down.
It is undeniable that more people put more pressure on services. We have a massive housing shortage already.

What specifically should she not have said?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:53 AM

Achmelvich, Unlimited Immigration is one of the major problems facing our country.
It was instigated to provide cheap labour for our service industries at the expense of poorer countries. Instead of developing their own economy and infrastructure they exploit there working people. Hardly a defining principle of socialism?

Times have changed, now the swarms of immigrants no longer make a beneficial contribution to the UK economy plus the fact that OUR infrastructure is crumbling and bursting at the seams.

I repeat, are we expected to accept 350000, 450000, 1 million, per year for ever?....just to satisfy an idiotic and completely lopsided ideology.    Dream on!    Proper students of political thought are realists first and foremost.

As to the others, including Mr smart arse, I disagree with most of the Tories economic policies and they fucked up big time in supporting our loss of sovereignty and relinquishing control of our borders through membership of the EU, but at least they are pragmatic enough to realise when they are simply wrong.    The pretend liberals here have been wrong in almost every issue that they have been involved in, but very few have had the balls to admit it.    Al being an honourable exception.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:55 AM

Teresa May BTW is my confident bet for next Prime Minister of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:03 AM

Ake, you may well be correct about Teresa May but I am reminded of an old saying that conservatives would vote for a pig with a blue rosette. In the light of recent claims that would seem quite apt.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:20 AM

Mrs May is a powerful politician, do not underestimate her.

She has been an excellent Home secretary.....with a coupe of staggers, but strong and inspiring to those with no particular ideology to service,..... in the mould of Mrs Thatcher

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:24 AM

theres a sort of inevitability about the abuse Steve. racist, dopey liberal....as General Custer said , i feel it in my gonads.

or perhaps thats just balls.

what is genuinely weird and unsustainable is the concentration of wealth in the south east of the country.

in Ripley, Derbyshire - Sainsbury's is regarded as agood job. the people on the checkouts are educated civil - they go home to reasonably priced homes that they pay a mortgage on.

go down to Slough - they need desperately the immigrants to work on the checkouts. they can't speak English. god alone knows how they pay for a place to live with the 'homes under the hammer gang' property speculating like mad in the background.

thats the situation -if the wealth of the country were more evenly spread we could take a more realistic and sensible view of our labour requirements, and how many immigrants we could sustain.
we need a better infrastructure and incentives for firms to locate outside the tory triangle.

the tories won't be thinking along those lines.

no doubt that view makes me a candidate for Britain First in some peoples view on this site. however i am a lifelong labour party supporter. i do not see my views as racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:45 AM

Excellent Home Secretary my fat bottom. She has presided over the very thing she claims as a major evil (I profoundly disagree with her, but on her own terms she's an abject failure). The shameful border controls fiasco of several years ago happened on her watch. With her fierce talk of protecting our borders, etc., she is pandering to her fellow Tory hard-liners on immigration and even more to the racists of UKIP and she has to keep one eye on Cameron's stupid hostage-to-fortune referendum. She is instituting extremely harsh measures for immigrants in her attempts to keep people out, many or even most of whom would be of great benefit to this country. Without immigration on a large scale, for example, the NHS would collapse. It's all political manoeuvring with hardly a thought as to the best interests of this country. Immigration has never been a burden and need never be, as long as we decide to adapt to what is as plain as the noses on our faces, that mass migration is here to stay, and that we'd better get used to the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:52 AM

.. ironically [yes - checked with Alanis Morissette - think I'm using it correctly...]

ironically, a large proportion of migrants may very well be potential tory voters.... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Stu
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:19 AM

"She has been an excellent Home secretary"

Yer wot? Under her supervision the immigration she was rallying so vehemently against in her speech to the faithful has gone through the self-imposed roof of her own manifesto. Her policies have failed utterly. The prisons are in an appalling state, the roads are falling to bits and the infrastructure can't cope.

Her speech yesterday was a joke; she pretended as if her not insignificant failures had never happened. Truth is, at these conferences she could have come on stage and performed a rendition of "This Little Piggy" by farting and they would have cheered.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:32 AM

I fail to see how Akenaton can describe himself as a socialist.

The Conservative party conference has revealed plans to drive the poor further into poverty, while the economists say that austerity has failed to produce economic improvement, and tax cuts for the rich and for international capitalists continue.

The poor who fail to force their children to the schools filleted and driven to failure by Gove are to face deductions of fines directly from their benefits - while (for example) G4S get given government contracts while accountants magic their profits out of the UK to avoid UK tax - yet the government will not tax them at source.

The elderly face cuts now on the cynical basis that by the next election they will be dead or too senile to remember who took their money away.

Hunt proposes that UK workers should be driven to greater poverty to compel them to work like the Chinese - who have suicide nets outside their factories and where salespeople who fail their targets are forced to crawl in public.

Plans are leaked to halve the number of beds in the NHS - while statistics from the US show that medical bills are implicated in 60% of US bankruptcies.

As for housing - councils and housing associations face plans to make them sell at huge discounts properties they have built and which house tenants at rents that do not contain a profit element (in effect making them give away money to the property speculators who will finish up owning the houses and rack renting them) - and proposals for "affordable housing" to replace it will create houses that will need a salary of £50,000 pa outside London and £75,000 pa inside London.

Then there are the proposals on council tax - which will give the richest councils more money and take money away from the poorest who most need it for social purposes.

And Trident - roundly condemned by the senior military as useless (and which needs US consent and codes to be used - some "independent deterrent" - planned to be kept in some bizarre international nuclear willy-waving contest and useless against the current waves of theocratic international disruption of civilisation. It doesn't even deter anything - compare the number of times that the non-nuclear Switzerland has recently been invaded.

Then there are the headline grabbing lies - for example that Corbyn called Gaddafi's death but not 9/11 a tragedy - he quite simply did not say that. His words are out there. He said the failure to bring Gaddafi to justice and try him was a tragedy and also said that 9/11 was a tragedy.

Then there's Johnson, calling protesters pierced and tattooed crusties. Look at the pictures. A simple lie based on prejudice.

And IDS - forever calling abject failure a success, ducking and diving frantically to hide how many deaths he has caused.

And the calls for the disabled to earn more by work - calls from the same government that culled Remploy.

I could go on but need to stop.

Finally we come back to Cameron - demanding respect. His total failure over the last government and a bit is no basis for him to be respected. Rather he and Sniffing Gideon (and his lies about the "economic success" that only he and his cronies can see) have earned the contempt and hatred of every right-thinking person.


Perhaps this will be the subterranean movement that will finally unleash the tsunami against these rogues and thieves - now that the dead tree media and right-wing TV can be bypassed. When the people realise how roundly they have been betrayed surely their revenge will be unstoppable.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:37 AM

You've got to admit it, the Tories are working hard on making this country one no-one would wish to migrate to if they weren't desperate. The trouble for that being people are that desperate.

But maybe given time the strategy will succeed. We've got one minister, Jeremy Hunt, explaining how taking thousands of pounds a year from the working poor will encourage them to work harder, like Chinese workers in sweatshops, and Ian Duncan Smith justifying cuts as a way of setting up a Chinese model two-child family society (though of course not for the well-off), and a think tank calling for cuts to pensioner's help, on the basis that a lot won't be alive by the next election, so there's no need to fret about losing their votes, and with luck a lot will have lost their marbles, and won't remember who brought in the cuts.

Yes. the Nasty Party is back in the open once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:40 AM

Labour and Lib Dems agree that immigration needs to be greatly reduced.
Whoever owns the houses, there are already not enough for everybody, and the population grows much faster than it is possible to build them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 10:54 AM

Dear Dopey

Migrants, on average, benefit our economy by about £500 per year, each.

There are MANY vacant houses, almost all capable of being restored - albeit many in some impoverished places although the drive and innovation of many migrants would doubtless go a considerable distance to revitalising those impoverished places.

All that needs to be done is to tax the rich (and international money-smugglers) and spend wisely.

How long did the housing programme after WWII take to get rolling? There are dozens of designs for pod housing, pop-up housing, containerised hosing. It's not about CANNOT build - it's about WILL NOT build.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:06 PM

So there is no "housing crisis."
Look it up Richard.

The benefit or otherwise to the economy is disputed.
It depends how you try to calculate it.
All three parties say immigration is much too high.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:57 PM

May was half right which is what makes her dangerous.

Generally there is a net benefit from migration BUT there are social and logistical problems over sudden surges of mass migration.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:02 PM

Judging by David Cameron's speech today Jeremy Corbyn has got him very rattled.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:13 PM

Stu, you can hardly blame Mrs May for the rise in immigration, she has absolutely no power to stop immigration from inside the EU.

Richard, I have said that I disagree with 90% of Tory policy, but I believe their change of tack on unregulated immigration is right. If a bit late , considering Mr Farage has been telling them about it for the last five years.

Do you still think he is a racist and a bigot, now that all political Parties agree with his assessment?

Guest, according to the Home Secretary, there is absolutely no net benefit to the exchequer from the present rates of immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,English Voter
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:32 PM

I never cease to be amazed at the pure hatred that 'socialists' have for anyone who doesn't share their view of the world. As a member of the self interested majority in this country, I'm happy that we have a Tory government again and, thanks to Labour's tendency to self destruct every couple of decades, will probably have one for many years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

The people you see here guest are not "socialists"
I am a "socialist" who recognises some good is social conservatism, and some idiocy in "liberal" ideology.

A true socialist hates no one, but is dedicated to the dismantling of the Capitalist socio/economic system, poverty and worthlessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 02:11 PM

'Hate' is a bit of a a vague unfocused fluffy kinda word... like 'nice'... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 02:18 PM

i think the wat you express yourself Ake, polarises opinion.

no one wants the low wage economy except the tories - so they may cccasionally flash their knickers at the ant-immigration lobby (as Thatcher famously did to get the NF vote). but really the more immigrants and the lowlier the status of the working men suits them down to the ground.

the fight is not about conservatism and liberalism.   or even really about immigration.

its about running this country on a sustainable and business like basis.

we have lived through an age of galloping pragmatism, and the old horse ain't what it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 02:35 PM

.. and before petty tory diehards accuse 'us' on the broad spectrum from centre to left of being 'haters'..

maybe they should consider that pure toryism lacks 'love' for anyone else but themselves and their own pockets... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 03:12 PM

There was plenty of hate spewed by Porky in his speechto the Self-Servative Conference today.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 03:40 PM

'the people you see on here are are not socialists......i am a socialist'

forgetting for a moment how you define and express your politics, akenaton, this is a massively arrogant and dangerously fanatical statement.

you know nothing about how i or others here live their lives. as for 'hate' speech- i have never indulged in abusing anyone (er ....apart from the above obviously....) as a union rep, i have to deal with and sometimes represent people who i profoundly disagree with, while also liking them. (eg if i went around calling ukip types racist or ignorant, i wouldn't last long -not noble tolerance, just self-preservation!)

however, i must admit i do hate tories, arms dealers, gun nuts, and any other psychopathic greedy fuckers who are wrecking all that is good about our country and the world. should any of that lot turn up in the pub, i would of course be off my high moral horse. however, these are the guys in control who manipulate and divide all the rest of us - i can't sensibly dislike anyone who is a victim of media lies and oppressive governments.

don't forget it is the 1% against the rest of us - we might squabble on here but we are are all, potentially, on the same side.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:04 PM

I laugh because we have another 4.5 years of Tory government, by which time there will be less of an opposition than there is now, then we will have another 5 years of Tory government, and other 5 years, and another 5 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:24 PM

boko - are you feeling alright? should someone near you be calling an ambulance?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:29 PM

Don't agree Achmelvich, we will never abolish poverty and give all a stake in society until financial aspiration is removed from the equation.

I don't see another person here proposing the abolition of capitalism, although all seem to agree that resources are finite and the planet becomes more polluted daily by the search for wealth and power.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:30 PM

Laughter at the Croydon Conservative Club

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:34 PM

ok.. we abolish capitalism 12.00 noon tomorrow.. agreed.. there.. job done...

Right then tory capitalists, you are given fair notice.
Behave yourselves from tomorrow lunchtime. share your wealth.. and be generally nicer to people....😇

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 04:41 PM

Unfortunately its not that easy PFR   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 05:00 PM

of course it isn't easy - but we have to try surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 05:45 PM

while i'm having one of my sporadic rants on here (rest assured i will get annoyed and leave for a while again soon) can i just say - this is ridiculous and totally unnecessary what is happening to our country. can't we at least try to emulate the more progressive and successful (mostly) northern european countries? do we have to slavishly follow the worst aspects of the usa warmongers?
just back from visiting our daughter who is a printer in estonia and was struck first - by how cheap, and enjoyable, the football was (go fc flora!) how positive the people are, who have suffered greatly. a usually tragic (independent for 40 of its 800 year history) country is doing its best to progress, while our government strives to take us back to some victorian wage slave economy. come on people - we can do better than this. either a revolution is just round the corner or we are truly fucked by fascists. and their pathetic supporters....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:19 PM

Overwhelmingly immigrants are intelligent hard-working adults with abilities they have developed as they grew up in their countries of origin. They come here like a gift to our society.

Of course they need things like houses and schools and medical services and so forth but among them are the people to provide all those things, builders, teachers, doctors and nurses, and all the other skills.

But we have fallen down so badly in the way we organise our society that those skills don't get used as they could be. And the reason for that is an economic and political system that is functionally and morally insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:19 PM

Overwhelmingly immigrants are intelligent hard-working adults with abilities they have developed as they grew up in their countries of origin. They come here like a gift to our society.

Of course they need things like houses and schools and medical services and so forth but among them are the people to provide all those things, builders, teachers, doctors and nurses, and all the other skills.

But we have fallen down so badly in the way we organise our society that those skills don't get used as they could be. And the reason for that is an economic and political system that is functionally and morally insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 07:38 AM

No upper limit?
Ten thousand?
Millions?
A billion?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM

Oh my word!! I can see them now.

Making a human bridge across 26 miles of the English Channel. Swarming into and over Kent.

Spreading their tentacles past vast swathes of the Home Counties. Heading was to Hampshire, Dorset, Devon, Somerset and Cornwall. Eastwards to Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and eventually HERTFORDSHIRE !!! Heaven forfend.

Entering London.

Making inroads to the North as far as Durham, Cumbria and Northumberland.

It's about time someone wrote a fairy story about it, What!? They already have.

Oh bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:58 AM

MoH wrote: "Overwhelmingly immigrants are intelligent hard-working adults with abilities they have developed as they grew up in their countries of origin. They come here like a gift to our society."

Watching the evening news it struck me that those refugees slogging through Europe carrying their children and what meager personal possessions they could manage on their backs, are the kind of determined, courageous people we need in this country (the U.S.).

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:03 AM

When I was a teenager there were 2 darker faces in our small market town in Scrumpyshire.

An Indian doctor and a postman, who rumour had it was the offspring of an American GI stationed during the war.

I'm sure some of the locals fueled on the rhetoric of Enoch Powell
considered them sufficient number to get in a panic about being 'swarmed'..... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:15 AM

One thing that the Con-servative party conference has done is demonstrated how many lies they tell. How keen they are to reduce all of the less fortunate to penury and serf status. This could be the moment when we see how naked they really are, and sweep over them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:23 AM

So it goes like this. Tory party know that they are in danger of being found out so they tell their press mates to create scare stories about immigrants. Press co-operate in return for favours granted to them by Tory party. Everyone gets how bad immigration is pushed down their throats morning, noon and night. Tory party then tell everyone how good they are because they are addressing an issue that they made up in the first place. And people keep falling for it...

To give the thread a bit of a folky flavour - When will they aver learn?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:26 AM

BTW - To those claiming to be socialists while also being nationalists. Can I remind you National Socialism has been tried before. Can't remember where...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Stu
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:34 AM

"Stu, you can hardly blame Mrs May for the rise in immigration, she has absolutely no power to stop immigration from inside the EU."

Really? You might want to read this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immi from Marchgration/11446218/Theresa-May-defies-Cabinet-colleagues-with-pledge-to-meet-migration-target.html

You can blame her because she said it. Then ignored the fact net migration had risen during her time as Home Secretary. Even business leaders were pissed off with her for spewing out such a nasty little speech.

Any how, in reality the tories and kippers anti-immgration stance ignores the published figures (see here for instance: http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk ). This comes as little surprise as evidence-based policy formation is virtually non-existent in British politics at present (see climate change and the government's green policies for more).

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:37 AM

You are ignoring the fact that all the other parties also argue that the level of immigration is too high.

What specifically have the Tories said on the subject that you all object to?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punlfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:00 AM

..as tory propaganda & press struggles to scrape through the bottom of the barrel
desperately seeking new bizarrely imagined petty accusations to discredit Corbyn..

How long before they attack his integrity, patriotism, and competance
in dealing with potential impending Alien Invasion or Zombie Apocalypse...??? 😬

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:07 AM

Stu, your link does not support the views expressed here about the benefit to the economy.

"MigrationWatch UK (2014) criticised the assumptions of Dustmann and Frattini (2013). The criticism covers many factors, but overall it suggests that Dustmann and Frattini (2013) exaggerated the revenues the government obtains from migrants and underestimate the cost of public service provision to migrants. Using new multiple assumptions, MigrationWatch UK (2014) finds that during the 1995-2011 period the fiscal impact of EEA migrants was GBP -13.6 billion and the fiscal impact of non-EEA migrants was GBP -135 billion. Looking at the recent EEA migrants, MigrationWatch UK (2014) estimates that the total fiscal impact of recent EEA migrants for the 2001-2011 period was GBP -0.25 billion and the impact of recent non-EEA migrants was GBP -27 billion for the same period."

If there is a net gain but it benefits employers and the wealthy while hurting those at the bottom, is that beneficial?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:39 AM

...all the other parties also argue that the level of immigration is too high.

Of course they do. They are politicians and tell people what they want to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:51 AM

So why do you all only attack the Tories over immigration?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

"So why do you all only attack the Tories over immigration?"

.. possibly because...
.. although any sensible citizen recognises that there would be a theoretical finite space for occupants on this island,
and accept a rational informed debate on the subject;

only the tories and even further right wing zealots
are at this present time cynically manipulating it as a scare tactic issue
to panic the voting population into pernicious paranoid xenophobia... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:03 PM

.. and yes that does include labour right wingers who place personal opportunism, ambition and power above party and nation... 😠


One interesting question for academic researchers may be..

All those tory MP rats who fled a sinking ship to join labour when Blair became prime minister...

To what extent do they now influence & dominate the right wing of the labour party ???

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:28 PM

"If there is a net gain but it benefits employers and the wealthy while hurting those at the bottom, is that beneficial?"

No it doesn't, but that applies to everything in society. It's what capitalism in the form we have it is largely about. If there is net gain it ought to be shared out fairly, and it can be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:31 PM

Mr McGrath is right, it's not about political Parties.

It's about a system which it no longer working efficiently enough to provide for the citizens of the UK.
The wealth gap has never been wider, and like it or not the flood of immigrants add to the problems of the poor, by driving down wages and putting our rocky infrastructure under further pressure.

Calling each other stupid names will make no difference, it just makes you look dim.

Yes, the Conservative Party will keep power for the foreseeable future, but Mr Corbyn has got socialism back on the menu and his job will not be as prime minister, but as an educator of the electorate.

At last a real alternative to clapped out capitalism.

I don't agree with all Jeremy promotes, he's still a bit liberal as far as I am concerned.....to make the middle class accept a drop in living standards and an end to wastefulness will take more than even genuine liberalism!    The steel fist inside the velvet glove.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

Employers and the wealthy benefit from cheaper labour.
Those at the bottom see their wages driven down, rents increased and have to compete for any housing at all and for work.
How can that be reversed?

Pfr,
scare tactic issue
to panic the voting population into pernicious paranoid xenophobia.

Can you give an example of a Tory doing that?
Nothing TM said could be so described.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:30 PM

"Can you give an example of a Tory doing that?"

No.. I could but I won't.. I've got more pressing things to do with my time..

look for yourself..

come on.. don't play so innocent and unaware..

just open your eyes to the reality of mass press & media content and see for yourself..

there's plenty of it about .. now.. and historically.. 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

'BTW - To those claiming to be socialists while also being nationalists. Can I remind you National Socialism has been tried before. Can't remember where...'

couldn't agree more. i'm a nazi, and a racist.

this what i warned about.just abuse, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Stu
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:10 PM

"Stu, your link does not support the views expressed here about the benefit to the economy."

I'm arguing that Theresa May is a cynical hypocrite that knows she can woo a conference of tory drones, not entering into a discussion about the details of the net gain to GDP from immigration; it's a net gain. Suggesting that they cost the taxpayer to use public services is not an argument: it costs for all of us to use public services and we should not expect to make a profit from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:13 PM

"Those at the bottom see their wages driven down, rents increased and have to compete for any housing at all and for work."

The wages are driven down by British employers applying "market forces". The rents are driven up by greedy British landlords who bought their houses with favourable terms determined by the British government and who are entitled to a lot of bogus "allowances against tax". Housing shortages are the upshot of British government policy over decades. The ones at the bottom are competing for part-time jobs, jobs with no security, zero-hour contract jobs and bogus apprenticeships, all British government policy eagerly snapped up by British employers. Of course, you can always declare yourself bogus self-employed, which is another way of saying employment that doesn't require British employers to pay national insurance, again encouraged by the British government. Oh gosh, sorry, I don't appear to be able to blame immigrants for anything...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:28 PM

Yes I noticed that Al, but just passed by holding my nose.

The SNP are certainly not socialist, they are in favour of the EU and "freedom of movement" and are a bit too media friendly for my taste, but I vote SNP for independence in the hope that it can serve our population better. They also stand for the removal of WMDs from Scottish soil, which is a must as far as I am concerned.

I am also heartened to know that the Scottish people(what's left of them) are socially conservative, regardless of what the career politicians would have us believe.

Any similarities to "National Socialism" as practiced by Mr A Hitler, reside only in the dark recesses of little trollish minds. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

"Oh gosh, sorry, I don't appear to be able to blame immigrants for anything... "

I don't think anyone here is blaming the immigrants for the idiotic state of affairs which afflicts this country, the EU is responsible and successive governments are also to blame for not withdrawing years ago.

If I was young and living in a foreign hell hole, I would certainly be an economic migrant, the UK must look like heaven to these people.

While I'm at it, those of you who showered Keith with abuse when he first brought up the subject of unregulated immigration....remember "racist", "bigot" and worse, do you ever feel just a little bit ashamed of yourselves now that his opinions have been vindicated.........no I don't suppose you do :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:49 PM

"Do you ever feel just a little bit ashamed of yourselves now that his opinions have been vindicated."
They haven't, other than in the mind of racists and bigots - not mentioning any names, of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:57 PM

I think Keith's opinions HAVE been vindicated .....why else would all the major Parties reverse their views on unregulated immigration? other than that they were simply untenable?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:09 PM

"I think Keith's opinions HAVE been vindicated"
Of course you do - why wouldn't you?
Bet you're one of those 'Socialists' who thought that Eunuch (whoops, nearly forgot) Mr Powell was an awfully nice man too.
"why else would all the major Parties reverse their views on unregulated immigration?"
Because you couldn't squeeze a credit card between any of them.
Put not your trust in - politicians, they're (nearly) all unprincipled self-serving sharks.
Gi' us a break Jimmie
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:16 PM

That doesn't make sense Jim and what is, "of course you do, why wouldn't you", meant to imply?

Keith and I disagree regularly on this forum......difference is we prefer to treat one another with respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:32 PM

.....why else would all the major Parties reverse their views on unregulated immigration?

I am not aware that any party has "reversed its views". No party, to my knowledge, has ever had a policy of "unregulated immigration", therefore there can have been no reversal of views. Certainly, there has been a sharpening of the rhetoric, especially from the Tories. There is a glaringly simple reason for that. The Tories are being led by the nose by the racists of UKIP and their camp-followers. The Tories have no answer to their simplistic, populist and bigoted " policies" so they panic and try to talk ever tougher. But talk is all it is. Think of all the failed promises of politicians over the decades. The Tory promise of getting immigration down to the tens of thousands was the biggest lie, the egregiously biggest broken promise, OF ALL TIME. Not a principle in sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:34 PM

The first line of that was a quote from akenaton that I was responding to which I forgot to put in quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 03:56 PM

racists, bigots and nazis...

well thats folk music for you!


not of course that we're entitled to call ourselves folk music...the racist bastard folk nazis want the term for the einsatz Grupen of the Ewan MacColl Division.

don't like being caled a racist, bigot fascist Jim...well don't do it to others

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 04:22 PM

So why do you all only attack the Tories over immigration?

I don't. You need to ask 'all'. Whoever they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 04:22 PM

I look forward to the day you get back to your usual, buoyant, witty self, Al. It's bloody miserable is this.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 04:44 PM

Fucking post eater. There is no absolute, universal, absolute right to immigrate to England.

As usual, Akenhateon, KtheA, and Terribilis are frothing at the mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 06:29 PM

I agree with Ake in that equating the SNP with the Nazis because they are Scottish 'nationalists' and see themselves as 'socialists' is one for the trolls. It is like saying any party who sees itself as a democratic party must equate with Soviet style communism as East Germany called itself the German Democratic Party!

The SNP are an inclusive welcoming party who are as outward looking as any other party and more so than some of the other parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 06:50 PM

Where did anyone equate the SNP to Nazis, Allan?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,puinkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 06:56 PM

Goose Stepping in kilts.. ooer.. not in front of grannies and small children..!!! 😱

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 07:30 PM

"Where did anyone equate SNP to Nazis Allan"

Well there you have it, there is trollery at its inane and boring worst.
Dave, most people here have you taped. You don't contribute to debate, you simply try to wear people down by insinuation followed by wide eyed denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 07:51 PM

Wait a minute, I'll write it for you Dave!

"How do you know my eyes are wide"!!! :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 07:51 PM

In other words, you don't agree with Dave and can't stand the fact that most of us find him to be an engaging and thoughtful contributor. It really is time you dropped this silly troll business. All it does is make you look like a whingeing fool who doesn't really know what "troll" means. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:46 AM

Dave......."BTW - To those claiming to be socialists while also being nationalists. Can I remind you National Socialism has been tried before. Can't remember where"

I took that to be directed towards left leaning SNP supporters as obviously did Ake. If it isn't then who on earth is it directed at? The sentence seems to suggest that if you are left leaning nationalist then this has already been tried by the nazis. Sorry but it is there in black and white! That is how it reads. If this is not what you meant then fair enough it is just a clumsy sentence which is not meant.

And Steve I often agree with your views and to tell you the truth your views would generally (obviously maybe the independence debate aside) sit in well with the Nats. If people are going to be likened to nazis then there has to be evidence to back this up - otherwise it does look more like trolling. What we have though rather than a nazi like party is a party that views everyone legally living in Scotland as Scots regardless of their ethnic origin or birthplace; a party who have called for more immigration into Scotland; and a party who are more enthusiastically pro-European than either of the two main UK wide parties; and a party who are very pro gay-rights etc. Not all the party members agree with that of course as it is a wide church - however that is the views of the party as a whole. Where is the likeness to the nazis?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:48 AM

It seems to me that Akenhateon with his racism and homophobia is the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 03:36 AM

I don't agree with your definition of my views Richard, but any views I have, I state them clearly and stand by them. These are not the actions of a troll.

A troll makes personal attacks, like adding "hate" to the usernames of other members, or makes clearly false charges then refuses to admit them.
I cannot remember the last time Dave made any meaningful contribution to a thread which I have been involved in, his purpose seems primarily to derail constructive debate and cause interruptions, like discussing the merits of different types of beer in the middle of a serious political thread.

Trolls are easy to spot, Steve is not a troll, he is an ideologue. Richard is a hybrid.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 03:40 AM

""of course you do, why wouldn't you","
Keith is anti- immigration and so are you
You have taken to defending Keith's excesses
What do you think I meant?
Lip service to "differences" do not get away from the fact that you share Keith's politics in general - you are both of the right.
You choose not to answer about Powell (answer enough in itself)
Can we get it clear about immigration.
Despite claims of the right, Britain is not an overcrowded country due to its immigration policy
Housing shortages and lack of accommodation is due to the predatory nature of the money-making property industry and it is centered round the south-east of England where the work is - where there are jobs, prices rocket - a legacy of the Thatcher regime.
This would be the case if there were no immigrants entering Britain.
Is is regularly said that immigrants drive down the wages of the indigenous population - they do not.
Ruthless employers prepared to replace British workers with those prepared to work for less do this.
The right in Britain either smashed or bought off the unions that, to some degree negotiated a living wage for its members and replaced it with the free-for-all that now exists.
Britain has a partly enforced minimum wage policy which falls far below a necessary living wage - S.F.A. to do with immigration - everything to do with greed.
Britain bears a responsibility to accept both economic immigrants and refugees.
Historically, we are responsible for the state the colonies were left in following the fall of the British Empire.
You asked once how long we have to go on paying for past crimes - as long as it takes to put it right.
We fill our shops with cheap goods produced under near slave, dangerous and often lethal conditions - it is little wonder immigrants seek a better life here.
The entire history of Britain is based on our own economic migration - only we sent armies of soldiers and priests to 'civilise' and plunder the places we went (within my lifetime certainly)
For all the problems Britain has, it remains a wealthy country due to our history of Empire - unfortunately that wealth is mainly centred in the hands of the few - not the fault of immigrants.
You sneer at the people in some of these third-world countries who try to better their lot - your "so called" Arab Spring protesters - what are they supposed to do - bend their neck and put up with their lot? - apparently so, you offer no alternative.
The West, in its dealing with despotic feudal dictators, takes a large share of responsibility in what is happening there.
Isis would never have got to where it has had the West done what it is now doing in Syria.
We have an actual, a moral and a humanitarian obligation to welcome these people (god knows here God features in the thinking of those who claim to be Christians in these matters - totally beyond me.
Anti-immigration was once the stamping-ground of the fringe nutters - the The National Front, B.N.P., the rabid right as typified by Powell, so extreme, he was considered to far off the wall for his own Party and only accepted by Northern Ireland Unionists.
Now it is main line policy - neo Fascists like Farrago and his Ukippers, official Tory Party policy - the Labour party (hopefully due for a change-of-=heart under a new leader.
Anti-immigration has become a vote-catcher based on the Xenophopbia drummed into us all by centuries of our being told that we were the finest on the planet.
Surveys have indicated that over 50% of the population holds and has openly expressed racist vies at one time or another - not a thing to be proud of.
Anti- immigration can only help to inflate that shameful statistic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 03:44 AM

I've disagreed with Ake on various points before which he would concede. That isn't the point though. I wasn't talking about Ake here. What I replied to was the suggestion that people who see themselves as both nationalist and socialist should remember it has been tried before. That doesn't appear to be only pointed at one person but could be directed towards a significant chunk of the Scottish population. And there is no basis to it! There is no comparison or similarity between the SNP (or in fact the Scottish Greens) and the Nazis. It is perfectly possible as I said in the last post that it was not meant like that - but that is how it reads.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 04:34 AM

I am not anti-immigration, but like most of the population and every political party, I think the current rate is too high.
While it benefits government, employers and the rich, the deleterious consequences fall upon the poor.

Steve<
I am not aware that any party has "reversed its views".

The Blair/Brown governments encouraged immigration.
Members of that government have since admitted that they allowed the rate to get too high, with harmful consequences.

There is a case for and against high levels of immigration.
To have an informed debate, both sides need to be put.
May put the case against.
Why do people object?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 05:23 AM

Allan - The statement I made was referring to 'those who etc.' was not directed at the SNP. Clumsy sentence it may be but I would have thought anyone would have spotted the obvious pun. It is not advisable to call yourself a national socialist in light of events in the mid 20th century.

Ake - Define 'troll' for us please so we can at least know what you are rambling on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 05:32 AM

anti immigration is just shop window dressing for the tories. it is just bluster to appease the blimps. it is never reflected in their policies. i'm not suggesting it should be.

but let's be honest. the actual open door policies they pursue is not borne of love for our fellow man. it is there out of simple supply and demand principles. if they can come up with a supply of desperately poor immigrants - there will never be a way to unionise and get decent wages and living conditions. it is a policy based on bloody wickedness.

when therre are parts of the country where houses change hands for pennies, and pissy little flats in london cost millions. the economy of the country is so skewed and out of kilter, adding more to the workforce in the south east is just making a bad situation worse.

as for the new immigrants being a gift from heaven. we already have such a gift - our own young people we teach them in slum schools with crappy old textbooks with teaching techniques reminiscent of a billy bunter novel. we teach them standards of behaviour with the Jeremy Kyle Show. we care for them in under resourced hospitals when they get ill. when they have fought in our armies and worked in our factories we give them shit pensions and in many cases let them die on the street. we have them live in filthy cities where class a drugs are available on every main street.

that is society the tories have given us and which they are trying to drive down the demands of the citizens by pricing them out of employment.

i'm bloody miserable Steve because you Dave and Jim think its okay to call me a racist, a bigot, a nazi.

Alan Whittle - lifelong Labour voter.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 05:34 AM

Sorry, ake. I see you have already done that.

A troll makes personal attacks, like adding "hate" to the usernames of other members, or makes clearly false charges then refuses to admit them.

I have already advised you that for compassionate reasons I have stopped referring to you as the village idiot, even if I believe you deserve it at times. Yet you still make personal attacks on me. Fine, all can see what is going on. I have never made any false charges. What else have you got?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 05:45 AM

Al, I never referred to you as a racist, a bigot or a nazi. I Said that some comments you made were racist and gave you the opportunity to address them. You did not do so but took the huff and decided to leave Mudcat in a fit of pique. Which no-one can take seriously as you are obviously still here. Your memory of the events are different to mine. You know you are right. I know I am right. Neither of us can provide any evidence but no-one ever brings it up apart from you. I can only suggest you leave it alone or, every time you bring it up, I shall repeat my memories of the event.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:00 AM

I don't think I've ever called you any of those things, Al. Nor would I, on the strength of anything I've seen in your posts. I haven't got the time or energy to go jumping around policing what other people who you may think are in "my gang" are saying. I assure you that they are entirely separate entities from me!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:08 AM

I am not aware that any party has "reversed its views".

"The Blair/Brown governments encouraged immigration."

That is an extremely dishonest response to my post. My comment referred clearly to UNREGULATED immigration, not "immigration". I would also point out that in the Blair/Brown era you refer to, we were desperate for those plumbers, electricians, dentists and all the rest and we welcomed them with open arms. Funny how so many people can get a little bit racist when times change, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:11 AM

Why Steve?
There is no debate about "unregulated immigration." Everyone is against that.
The issue is the level of immigration and if it is too high.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:21 AM

"I don't think I've ever called you any of those things,"]
Nor me, to my recollection.
I may have taken you up on something you have said, but I don't recall anybody having referred to you as such Al
Getting unionised has nothing to do with immigrants, who appear to take a lot of stick for something that has nothing to do with them
The Tories, under Thatcher, systematically took away our right to a say in the workplace, the Labour right and all who have coalesced with the Tories in order to hold office have continued her policies.
Ruthless employers deliberately using immigrants to drive down wages dates back at least as far as the Irish Famine, when coalowners used Famine refugees to drive down miners' wages.
If all immigration ceased tomorrow nothing would change - the right don't believe we should have a voice in the workplace - never have and never will.
It really doesn't help immigrants or your own image to blame immigrants for something that fas nothing to do with them.      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:24 AM

Akenaton made a comment about parties reversing their views on UNREGULATED immigration. That is what I responded to and that is what you have tried to twist. You'd better tell akenaton that his views don't count as "debate" in your eyes, hadn't you? So dishonest, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 07:36 AM

you say a nationalist and socialist is a national socialist - a nazi.

aren't we all nationalists to some extent. we love our country. some of us are socialists.

it doesn't make us nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 07:54 AM

Agreed. Some SNP members, whilst being strongly nationalist, are left-leaning and progressive. I tend to think that "internationalist" fits better with socialism, however. The interests of the people whose blood, sweat and tears make our nations wealthy don't stop at borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:02 AM

Akenaton made a comment about parties reversing their views on UNREGULATED immigration.

The Blair/Brown policy is often described as "unregulated immigration" even though obviously some regulation was in place.

They were responsible for levels becoming very high.
They then reversed their view, saying they had allowed levels to get too high.
That is what Ake referred to.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:05 AM

If people posting here could down and stop throwing playground insults at each other, even when they might be "deserved", this discussion has a better chance of being allowed to proceed rather than being prematurely shut down.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:07 AM

Twist, twist, twist. Pathetic. You got it wrong and you won't admit it. It's there for everyone to see, just like your Wheatcroft fiasco. Why am I not surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:09 AM

Continual misrepresentation is hardly going to advance the conversation either, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:09 AM

Al - you say a nationalist and socialist is a national socialist - a nazi.

Who did? My exact phrase was -

"To those claiming to be socialists while also being nationalists. Can I remind you National Socialism has been tried before."

Which as I have already explained is reminding people that national socialism does have a negative connotation. Did someone else say what you suggested?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:10 AM

yesterday my wife haad a basal cell carcinoma removed from her face. One of the nurses in the operating theatre could not understand or speak English.

Now entrance to the medical profession is quite difficult for English people. Nursing is an all degree profession these days. Every year hundreds of peoplw with excellent A level results - some with science degrees are refused the right to train as a doctor for various spurious reasons.

what you have to understand Jim is that the tories are slimey fuckers. they are clobbering the working classes from both ends. denying them upward mobility and flooding the lowlier ends of the labour market.

It is a very conscious policy. You must have heard that bastard the other day who wants Chinese standards of employment to be the thing in England.

really you shouldn't be surprised. its the summation of the Thatcherite policies. The services led economic recovery. First they did away with all the heavy industries and all the skills and union strength that went with it. Now its time to take the last vestiges of self respect.

Chairman Dave has aceded to a further how many more thousand immigrants. Out of human decency...yeh sure!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 09:40 AM

Very good points here. Money isn't restricted by borders, so why are people?

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 10:13 AM

"what you have to understand Jim is that the tories are slimey fuckers"
With respect Al - I grew up knowing that - grandmother - suck eggs and all that.
There is no reason to blame immigrants or immigration for that fact.
One of their slimiest of traits is to set one group of workers at the throats of others - while we're kicking the shit out of each other, it's business as usual with them and theirs.
By and large, it really doesn't matter that people coming to Britain not knowing the language, there is little evidence of that affecting the magnificent work done by doctors and nurses from abroad - the National Health service would be in a far worse state than it is without the input of staff from abroad.
How many of our emigrants leaving Britain speak Japanese or German or French.....?
Asian Kids are among the top achievers in Britain - they are said to work the hardest and get the highest marks.
In my experience, emigration has enriched our country and done much to make it a far more tolerant place than it was when I was growing up - if it wasn't for the Jurassic parkers among us, that can continue to be the case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 11:14 AM

Regarding my remarks on unregulated immigration, I was of course referring to the flood of economic migrants from Eastern Europe, who were actively encouraged to come here by Blair and Brown "to make Britain more competitive in the global economy".

All political Parties including the SNP supported that idiocy, the only exception being Mr Farage and UKIP .
All except the SNP have reversed their views and now admit that we must have control of our borders and some control on who and how many come here.
The SNP will regret sticking to the policy of using cheap foreign labour rather than training the hundreds of thousands of young people who at present have no viable future, and live in drug addled sinks all over the Central Belt.
Independence should be the door to a new future and a new mindset, not a platform for prancing career politicians to perform on.

We have all seen that show...."The New Labour Review".

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 11:41 AM

I think the person who posted this is a troll :0)


Sorry, ake. I see you have already done that.

A troll makes personal attacks, like adding "hate" to the usernames of other members, or makes clearly false charges then refuses to admit them.

I have already advised you that for compassionate reasons I have stopped referring to you as the village idiot, even if I believe you deserve it at times. Yet you still make personal attacks on me. Fine, all can see what is going on. I have never made any false charges. What else have you got?

The false charges were that, as I am a Scottish Nationalist and a Socialist, that makes me a Nazi.
Then the poster denied that he had implied such a thing.

Look at the passage about not referring to me as the village idiot for "compassionate reasons", even if I deserve to be called the village idiot.

Could anyone with half a brain take the poster seriously?

Insults do not usually affect me, but this creep trying to use my wife's ill health as a tool to further insult me personally, makes me want to puke.

I think Al has got him weighed up pretty well.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 12:01 PM

When it cmes to party titles you'd find it hard to beat the Liberal Democrat Party of Russia, which is a far right nationalist party with a policy of a renewed expansion of the Russian Empire, ideally to include the whole of Eurasia.

Better watch what that Tim Farron gets up to...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 12:11 PM

" I was of course referring to the flood of economic migrants from Eastern Europe, who were actively encouraged to come here by Blair and Brown "to make Britain more competitive in the global economy"."
Seems a bit racist to single out one particular group of migrants - why am I not surprised?
Perhaps wqe should only encourage those from white, Anglo Saxon countries - waddya think?
I have no time for Blair, but I'm certainly not going to condemn him for an immigration policy that became unpopular among politicians.
THIS WAS BLAIR'S POLICY
Still haven't replied on your opinion of MR POWELL - don't need to really
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 12:26 PM

The false charges were that, as I am a Scottish Nationalist and a Socialist, that makes me a Nazi.

Yes, they are false charges and they were not made.

Then the poster denied that he had implied such a thing.

Yes, it was denied because it just ain't true. As everyone can see.

For someone who is so keen on making sure false accusations are not used, he sure does make a lot of them.

but this creep trying to use my wife's ill health as a tool to further insult me personally

For someone who is so keen on not using personal abuse, he sure uses a lot.

Enough is enough and the gloves are now off. You are a petty minded twisted little man who cannot understand that people are people. No matter what their orientation, country of origin, religion or politics, they are still human beings. Keith may ask again for me to go easy on you but you have shown time and time again that you have no concept of compassion, reason or empathy. For this reason you shall not be shown any.

Now, time for a pint I think. Or for another thread to be totally fucked by your vindictiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 12:45 PM

Seems a bit racist to single out one particular group of migrants - why am I not surprised?

There you go again Jim!
They were singled out because there is unlimited immigration from EU.
All other immigration has some regulation.
That was the issue under discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 01:11 PM

Dave, do you really promise not to show me any more of your "compassion"?.....I really don't think I could handle much more of it.

Allan and others I have contacted privately seemed to be aware of your implications.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

"There you go again Jim!"
Linking Ake's ongoing support of Farrago the Fascist with emotive terms like "unrestricted" then singling out Eastern Europeans as a target says everything that need to be said as far as I'm concerned.
Immigration came with being in Europe - I knew plenty of British building workers who headed East when it took their fancy.
Blair's policy was far from "unrestricted" - he attempted to manipulate and control the flow of immigrants into Britain, far more than I believe necessary - "unrestricted" is a right-wing political slogan - the document I linked refers to the number of European immigrants as "unprecedented", which is more in line with what it was - it hadn't happened before - a far cry from "unrestricted".
I worked with Eastern Europeans throughout the housing boom when it was very difficult to get painters, plasterers, carpenters and other tradesmen - they were efficient, reliable and by and large good tradesmen - and they were around when they were needed most.
I get from Ake's silence that he is a supporter of the late and very unlamented MR Powell - which makes him what he is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 01:44 PM

wasn't Powell the guy that started the whole immigration business back in the mid fifties with campaigns to recruit for 'the mother country'.

I remember reading an article by him where he reckoned the silences in Beethoven were more important than the music.

an odd cove.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:00 PM

Dum de dum de fucking dum!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:35 PM

emotive terms like "unrestricted"

Fair comment Jim.
Can you help us out with an unemotive word that describes the fact that there are no restrictions on immigration from EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:46 PM

"Can you help us out with an unemotive word that describes the fact that there are no restrictions on immigration from EU?"
How about simple immigration
Far from Blair removing restrictions, he attempted quality control for the reason Ake stated
Don't agree with his doing so, but that's me.
The trem "unprecedented" was the one used in articles such as the one I put up (no sign of "unrestricted, which is designed to appeal tho the knuckles along the ground mob, like yourself - a creation of the Tory bum-wipe press)   
Do you claim that the experiences I described in the building trade weren't accurate?
Two is too much for some people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 04:20 PM

Yes, I do promise, ake. Wonder why none of these people you have contacted privately have said as much.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:36 PM

always i find that with whatever group of people i meet, some are absolute saints, some are total bastards but the vast majority of us are decent folk just trying to get through life while not causing any harm to anyone else and helping each other when they can. all this immigrant talk is just bullshit - who gives a damn where anyone comes from as long as they are not in the total bastard group?
get a grip people -peace and love, pete

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:58 PM

.. the local indigenous half wit pisshead / junkie scum far outnumber the decent 'immigrant' family neighbours
on our street in the centre of a fair sized town in SW England... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 03:11 AM

"the vast majority of us are decent folk just trying to get through life while not causing any harm to anyone else and helping each other when they can. all this immigrant talk is just bullshit"
Exactly
Perhaps it's time that some of the people who devote so much time and energy to keeping them out tell us why it's so important instead of hiding behind the old arguments of 'taking our jobs and destroying our way of life'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 03:53 AM

Ach melvich, nobody cares where immigrants COME from and I am sure there are good and bad amongst their number.
The problem is the volume of immigrants who are arriving here annually, while we are struggling to house and care for our own citizens.

As I have said before, we need to be training our own young people in how to run our public services etc.....if we continue to rely on cheap economic migrants the situation will never improve.

I don't like the idea of Eastern Europeans living in third world poverty, but if immigration continues at the present rate, the UK will soon assume third world status for the poorest section of our working population.

This is a political issue of the greatest importance, not an issue of morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:38 AM

Jim,
no sign of "unrestricted, which is designed to appeal tho the knuckles along the ground mob,

The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration."
It is not an anti immigrant or derogatory term.
Immigration from EU is unrestricted.
That is a neutral true fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:59 AM

"while we are struggling to house and care for our own citizens."
Which is down to Government policy and the predatory nature of employers - nothing to do with immigration.
Employers will use immigrants to drive wages down (with the support of politicians) and politicians, in their turn, will use immigration to win elections - Ukip for instance, has no other policy but get out of Europe and control immigration.
Stopping immigration is not going to change the unemployment situation one iota.
You have raised the "changing our way of life" situation more than once - it certainly is a major feature in your Ukip Party policy - if that is your concern, why not have the honesty to raise it here?   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 05:29 AM

"It is not an anti immigrant or derogatory term."
Yes it is - all immigration is restricted in one form or another unless you are part of the E.U.
Britain seems to want to have its cake and eat it as far as Europe is concerned - take the benefits and reject the responsibilities - hence the on-going "shall we-shan't we" blushing bride act
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 06:54 AM

The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration."

Please provide examples of this. As you say "often", about three would suffice. The context of each instance would be essential, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:08 AM

In one sense, Jim, migration is highly restricted even within the EU. Most people don't want to up sticks and leave the country of their birth and their families behind. That is a massive brake on the movement of people. The way the Ukippers and all the other other little Englanders talk (or, in one case here, a little Scotlander) you'd think that the whole continent was charging gleefully towards our borders to take us over and occupy all our houses and steal our jobs and live on benefits and probably eat our babies into the bargain. Well life's not like that. The numbers of people on the move will rise and fall according to economic and political vicissitudes, just like they've always done down the centuries. People in the end regulate themselves. If numbers hit a high for a few years, we either moan and groan about it and try to turn everyone into little racists (the UKIP and Tory right method) or, as we've always done in the past, we adapt.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:51 AM

You are right - of course.
take us over and occupy all our houses and steal our job"
Our women - don't forget about them taking our women!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 11:58 AM

VERSION 1:

"Our women - don't forget about them taking our women!!"

Yes.. those bloody yanks with their flash uniforms, chocolate, chewing gum, and nylons...


VERSION 2:

"Our women - don't forget about them taking our women!!"

they're bloody welcome to them !!!

..though why they'd want to when their E European girls are much more prettier and fitter
than most of our local pudding faced fat lump chav trollops... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 12:06 PM

Indelicately put, though point well made! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

Steve,
Please provide examples of this. As you say "often", about three would suffice. The context of each instance would be essential, of course.

About 258,000 results (0.64 seconds)
Search Results

www.theguardian.com › World › UK News › Immigration and asylum
10 Aug 2015 - Quiz: do you know your European migration facts? ..... This article seems quite unfair in its bias toward unrestricted immigration. No one doubts ...
UK gains £20bn from European migrants, UCL economists ...

www.theguardian.com › World › UK News › Immigration and asylum
5 Nov 2014 - Tax payments by European migrants far outweigh welfare •
Arrivals are better educated ... Photograph: Gary Calton for the Guardian ... on immigration in which the contribution of unrestricted migration from within the EU has ...
EU plan for migrant quotas hits rocks after France and Spain ...

www.theguardian.com › World › Migration
19 May 2015 - An EU plan to impose migrant quotas on member states ... "It's out of the question to have immigrant quotas because we have ... "You can't resettle or relocate someone from one member state to another," one EU diplomat told the Guardian. ..... I'm sure that the people opposing unrestricted immigration or ...
The UK's rock-bottom wages and immigration from within ...

www.theguardian.com › World › Pay
1 Feb 2015 - Photograph: David Levene for the Guardian ... of the Guardian that unrestricted immigration from within the EU to the lower rungs of the service ...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 03:24 PM

okay blame it on the various governments....

the fact remains we aren't taking very good care of the people already here. perhaps we need to sort that out before we add a load more people that we can't care for.

i understand you all feel strongly that we can easily afford to take care of more people. i understand you think anyone who disagrees with you is a little Englander of little account and small intelligence.

however let me assure you, people at the bottom of the pile in this society - they have it very tough....their should be prioritised. before bankers bonuses. maybe before these people who aren't citizens of this country.

i suppose that is the real debate ...whether you think their needs should go to the top of the pile. i can see you have your opinions. all that i would ask is that you accept there are shades of quite thoughtful opinion on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:00 PM

Keith
Your Links:
DOESN'T MENTIIO N THE TERM BUT BLOWS YOUR ARGUMENT OUT OF THE WATER

ONTRADICTS YOUR ARGUMENTS TOTALLY

DOESN'T MENTION THE TERM BUT KICKS YOUR ARGUMENTS INTO TOUCH

MENTIONED IN A READERS LETTER ONLY

All the lings links prove your arguments are shit

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:13 PM

Typical Keith, Jim. At least I kept him off the streets for an afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:50 PM

Jim, you have hit a new low, You asked Keith to supply links to "unrestricted immigration" being published in the Guardian, and he has done so.   It is a recognised expression to define " free movement of labour" within the EU.

What you have done is link to articles supporting "free movement", which is not what you asked for.

Very disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 06:30 PM

how come this thread started about the tory party conference and has descended into squabbling about numbers and 'quality' of folk coming to live in our islands. come on, guys, people are just people and most are great.

(except tories, obviously - who are, of course, loathsome parasitic vermin)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:35 PM

Jim asked Keith no such thing.

Totally agreed, achmelvich.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:38 PM

"You asked Keith to supply links to "unrestricted immigration" being published in the Guardian, and he has done so. "
A - I didn't ask him - Steve did and Keith replied to Steve.
B   He supplied four links - 2 of the articles linked made no reference whatever to "unrestricted immigration" - the one that did was in reference to a reader's letter referring to a previous article and claiming it was unfair - the reference was that of the latter writer, it was not an article from the Guardian.
The fourth said, in essence that "unrestricted immigration" was a fallacy and that emigration in no way effected Britain adversely.
The "new low" here is that Keith Googled the term and didn't even bother to open them to read what they said, and a further "new low" is that you haven't bothered to read the discussion here so you haven't a clue who asked who what and, despite tripping over yourself to defend Keith (H.M.V. or what?) you haven't even opened the links Keith gave, as you were in so much of a hurry to lift him out of the klarts he has dropped himself in - more haste, lass speed laddie.
The high point of this is the only Guardian article mentioning "unrestricted immigration" says it is a figment of the media and that immigration is to the benefit of Britain - thanks for the links Keith.
Let me remind you of Keith's original point (in case you didn't read that either
"The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration.It is not an anti immigrant or derogatory term."
Presumably Keith made his point to show that "unrestricted immigration is a derogatory term."
His links deride the term say that immigration is not harmful to Britain.
Is there a literacy course at your local college (or in Hertford?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:50 PM

Missed a bit
(except tories, obviously - who are, of course, loathsome parasitic vermin)
Drink to that.
Speaking of Tories
Did you know that Mrs Thatcher's mass-murderer friend General Pinochet (he who ordered the detention, torture, rape and mass murder of several thousands of his opponents - many of them students, and who she (Mrs T) described as a champion of democracy) has been found to have ordered the murder of a Chilean ambassador and an American citizen in Washington in 1976?
Washington killings
It seems that "democracy" includes international terrorism to some Tories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 08:09 PM

Gosh, and now we are getting Geoffrey Howe eulogies in reverential tones. Well permit me to speak ill of the dead. He was a complete and utter Tory twat of the first order. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 08:22 PM

when Keith demands 'you' pander him with evidence of your points of argument...

so he can obsessively argue back against them...


Just say NO !!!



life's too short for all this boring petty nitpicking squabbling... 😣

[no matter how much it may appear to be dressed up in fusty grown up's academic big words....]

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 08:31 PM

Keith.. the real world of living breathing politics where people get heir hands dirty and their arses kicked;
is out there.. outside your house....

Not in front of a computer screen and keyboard.. inside textbooks..
or a point scoring one-upmanship game to be played out inside your head.....



...just a friendly reminder..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:13 AM

And everyone else please remember - it takes two to tango.

Jim et al - by engaging with him and his cadre, you come over as the same kind of twats as they are, arguing round and round, making the same points over and over, neither listening to the other. You've managed to fuck yet another thread with your ridiculous, puerile feud. It's childish, it's boring, IT'S SHITE!

We all know who the real cunts are - just ignore the fuckers and they'll fuck of and look elsewhere for their victims.

Jesus Christ almighty, get a fucking life, you bunch of squabbling shit-for-brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:14 AM

Of?

Off!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:04 AM

" you bunch of squabbling shit-for-brains."
These people have taken over thread after thread with their right-wing garbage - attacks on Muslims - on the Irish - support for Israeli terrorism - support for inaction in the Middle East - hompophobia -...... sure, if we ignore them, they will go away - 'course they will.
As far as I am, their campaign needs drawing attention to.
Very few people people take notice of their inhumanity and extremism (hasn't happened by ignoring them), but they're still at it, this little band of brothers.
We could accept these discussions as nice little fireside chats between agreeing adults - I'm more than happy to link what they have to say with what's happening in the world today.
Just received this from Ake's home territory of Scotland - while he and his friends here are telling us of the evil immigrants - this is what is happening there.
Jim Carroll
"David Cameron's Trade Union bill is a dangerous affront to democracy. It permits replacement workers, makes striking nearly impossible, and takes direct aim at the funding of the Tories' political opponents. And Scottish councils are fighting it with everything they've got.
It is truly a stirring display of solidarity. All 32 of Scotland's local authorities have promised to ignore the controversial bill when it becomes law, rendering it useless north of the border. "This is a new generation's poll tax moment," says Gary Smith, the GMB union's acting secretary in Scotland.
Our unions have made our workplaces safer and have raised the standard of living for every working Briton. They are worth defending. Imagine what would happen if councils throughout the UK showed the same defiance and togetherness as their Scottish cousins?
Join us in asking all British councils to reject the undemocratic Trade Union bill and refuse to enforce its terms.
The timing of this bill, launched less than a week after the conclusion of the Tube strike in London, is extremely cynical. It will make it next-to-impossible for workers to exercise their democratic right to job action. A union now needs approval from 50% of all eligible voters to withhold their labour, instead of just a majority of members who cast a ballot. That is a higher standard than Britain uses to elect its MPs, its mayors and its Prime Minister.
This bill also targets the funding of the Labour party -- it will force unions to get their members to "opt in" to the political levy every five years. Most unions don't have the capacity to engage in such an exercise. The right of a union to collect funds to fight for its interests and protection has always been part of its mandate. But the Tories are taking the opportunity to strip that away too --while doing nothing to limit the way corporations and hedge funds fill Conservative Party coffers.
Over 100,000 SumOfUs members are fighting this bill. And Scottish councils just gave us a new tactic. If we stand together, we can turn back this piece of dangerous legislation -- just like when union leaders stopped Margaret Thatcher's poll tax debacle in 1993.
Together, we can stop this bill. Tell your local council to ignore David Cameron's dangerous, undemocratic Trade Union Bill."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:21 AM

'you' pander him with evidence of your points of argument

If only you did.
When I ask for evidence or examples you all fall silent.

Steve, you posted this,

The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration."
Please provide examples of this. As you say "often", about three would suffice. The context of each instance would be essential, of course.



I provided four examples from recent months where that expression was used.
It took a few seconds, not "an afternoon."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:30 AM

Keith.. the real world of living breathing politics where people get heir hands dirty and their arses kicked;
is out there.. outside your house....

I know.
That is where I am looking.
I remind you that my views are mainstream, yours a fringe minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:37 AM

Did you actually read the articles. For example in the first dated 10th August the reporter undermines the statements made earlier in the year by Teresa May and Philip Hammond.

No you didn't read it did you.

Quelle surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:15 AM

For fuck's sake Jim - how many times do you have to 'draw attention to them'? You've done it non-fucking-stop for years, and to what effect?

They're winding you up! Pissing themselves laughing at you, as you try to out-argue their constant flow of circular arguments.

What a bunch of fucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:44 AM

The man is bonkers - nothing to do obviously!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:52 AM

"You've done it non-fucking-stop for years, and to what effect?"
Nobody takes them seriously, Keith has stopped his saturation posting and his 'last wordism'
A start
I suspect we have more in common than we have disagreements - you do it your way, I'll do it mine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:57 AM

Back off, Backwoodsman. Your gratuitously sweary rants are having precisely the opposite effect to what you claim to want, just getting people's backs up. You don't have to read what you don't want to read. Respectfully yours and ducking.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:05 AM

Raggy I do know that Guardian articles tend to be left wing.
I was not citing them in support of my views.
I cited them because they used an expression that Jim said, "is designed to appeal tho the knuckles along the ground mob,"

Guardian readers?

I said Guardian often used it, Steve asked for examples, and I produced them.
What did I do wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:25 AM

Can i put a proposition to you? something that occurs to me. can we do it without name calling?

Morally is there really any difference from pillaging the public purse for banker bonuses than doing it to assuage your consciences for what is the result of our capitalist militarism?

We all like the nice things that capitalism brings us - cheap guitars from China, cheap coal from peasant miners, cheap food from everywhere. and it gives us a tax pot of money. We need that money to educate our kids and take care of our walking wounded - all of whom are really fucked over by our culture.

just because you feel sorry for these immigrants, many of them displaced by military action our politicos have , at very least. condoned - does that give you the moral right to admit them to a place by our fireside? an expense we didn't have in mind when raised the tax.

i know how i feel. unsure. none of the name calling, self righteousness and viciousness convinces me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:25 AM

"Back off, Backwoodsman"

Back off yourself, Steve - your record doesn't make pretty reading if we go back a few months, so don't come all holier-than-thou with me.

And, if you cared to think about it, the tone of my recent posts, plus others who have complained, together with the dozens of regulars who've voted with their feet, and the number of closed threads this past year or so, should tell you how pissed-off many members are with the Keyboard Warriors who insist on fighting the same old battles ad nauseam, and wreck every thread they join.

Yours sincerely,
"Pissed-Off of Lincolnshire".

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 08:02 AM

Fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

"I remind you that my views are mainstream, yours a fringe minority."

.. and that'll be the stagnant toxic polluted stream where wallowing in the mire of inertia,
conformity, ignorance, and delusion is considered a proud virtue...??? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:18 AM

No Pfr.
I only mention it because you so airily dismiss any view of mine as being of no consequence and based on ignorance of the real world.

The real world is where most people live.
Most people hold views much closer to mine than yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:18 AM

Keith appeals to higher forces at all times. This time it's to a mythical majority he thinks he belongs to.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:36 AM

"and I produced them."
One more time Keith;
YOU DID NOT
You produced 4 links - two of those links did not mention "unrestricted emigration" in any way shape or form - it appeared in the search page but but not in the articles themselves - an indication that you don't even read your own links.
The article that does mention "unrestricted emigration" does so to debunk it - to point out that immigration in any way, shape or form does not effect the British people adversely and also that the actual figures are grossly inflated.
The last mention is from a reader and is not part of the linked article.
All the articles say the same thing - immigration and immigrants are being used as political whipping boys.
As Steve has pointed out, "unrestricted immigration" does not exist other than in the mind of the right wing press and racist parties like Ukip.
ALL IMMIGRATION IS SUBJECT TO RESTRICTION IN BRITAIN
How about trying to prove that is not true?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:40 AM

Keith.. you misunderstand.. I do not dismiss your views
[there might actually be an uncomfortable area of accord between our opinions on certain issues ???]..

What I do disdain, is your tedious pernickety waffling style of debate,
your perpetually provoking petty circular arguments with your arch rivals,
which usually jams up and derails any interesting threads...

There inevitably comes a point in most threads where discernible groan inducing 'Keith discussion paralysis symptoms'
signal the end of any useful debate, and the imminent closure of that thread.... 😫

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:43 AM

To be more specific, the two linked articles: "10 truths about Europe's migrant crisis" and "EU plans migrant quotas forcing states to 'share' burden", do not mention "unrestricted immigration" in any way shape or form - feel free to show that they do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:12 PM

Keith does belong to a majority, most people in the UK are "centreists"....Keith expounds a centre political philosophy, one which I sometimes disagree with, but he is civil and an excellent debater.   He cuts through all the myths which the soft left love and hold on to, even when these myths are proved to be political idiocy, like unregulated immigration from the EU.
Or the pretence that we have any real alternative to the Conservative Party, if we are determined to run a "democracy" funded by the Capitalist system.

I thought the election of a mild socialist might have changed your minds about the charade which has been Party politics for the last few decades, but no! you just fight the same old faux battles, the moth eaten ideologies which have all failed miserably.

Can't you admit even to yourselves the state that society is in?
Youth unemployment, food banks, bankrupt NHS, wage stagnation, huge numbers of immigrants driving down wages......why do you think this is happening?   Evil Tories? you must be fucking mad!   We no longer balance the bloody books, it costs money and takes time to train our people, many are mired in a benefits swamp, where work is so poorly paid that a young couple with children cannot lead a normal life.

Start looking beyond the soft left ideology, the view that we can be personally well off in an economic system in decline.

Take on board that everyone must be made to realise that our present wasteful lifestyle is completely unsustainable. This system is dead. It is an Ex System.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:18 PM

"Keith does belong to a majority,"
The majority of people in Britain are totally disillusioned with politics and politicians and do not vote.
The Tories hold office with a minority of those who do vote - a minority of a minority.
Keith is in a minority - simple mathematics.
"Can't you admit even to yourselves the state that society is in?"
Yes we can - and your support of fascists like Ukip and attacking the Trades Unions, and those in need like immigrants is going to make matters a damn sight worse.
We don't need right wingers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:39 PM

The majority of people in Britain are totally disillusioned with politics and politicians and do not vote.

Utter nonsense.

"At the 2001 general election the turnout was 59.4%; in 2005 it was 61.4%; in 2010 it was 65.1%; and in 2015 it was 66.1%" From here

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:02 PM

Jim, the "free movement of labour" says that there should be no impediment to economic migrants entering any country in the EU.

That is unrestricted? Or do you know something that we don't? Maybe you should tell the leaders of all political parties?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:36 PM

Free movement of labour within the EU is indeed a myth. You need an EU passport. You need the money to travel. You need the wherewithal to up sticks and leave your home. You need hide like a rhinoceros to put up with the shit you will get. Nothing in this world is free.

BWM. It is a good theory and one that has been expounded on many forums. You are to be applauded for sticking to you beliefs but, sadly, I have seen it fail all to often. If you continue to ignore the the more extreme views they end up taking over. In my opinion the worse thing the majority can do is let a minority take over. I will not bore you with Pastor Martin Niemöller's well known statement but we would all do well to remember it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:58 PM

Dave - Can't disagree with your 2nd point..

But do put up for consideration - effective prioritisation of skirmishes and battle, and best tactics / strategies for confronting and resisting... ???

Certainly the importance of avoiding falling into trap of facilitating letting the 'enemy' set the battleground
and terms and method of engagement...

Just to fuel all side's pride & vanity at not being seen to down a a singleinch...

ie.. squabbling on for bloody days about the use of just one word.. eg.. "unrestricted" 😴

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

"Jim, the "free movement of labour" says that there should be no impediment to economic migrants entering any country in the EU."
There are restrictions - you have had a list of them from Steve - are you claiming anybody can walk in?
The European Union charter allows free movement to and from Member States (with the qualifications Dave just listed), but that is a two way process offered to citizens of Britain who wish to work in Europe - no problem by me - wish it had been available when I was younger.
Am I to assume that you are not going to respond to Keith's and your 'inaccuracies' about what he linked and didn't link and whethet he is in the "majority" or not.
I find your hit-and-run style of debate more and more fascinating the more you indulge in it.
"Utter nonsense."
I was taking elections as a whole - having said which, the Tories took 37% of the vote - not a majority as Keith or Ake claims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:49 PM

The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport.
That is a given, surely? All immigrants everywhere need a passport.....Jesus Christ!! what a bunch of numpties.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:00 PM

A passport. And money. And the bottle to do it. Numpty indeed...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:25 PM

well it won't get you into most places where there is a living to be had. the states or australa for example...

so it does make us fairly unique.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:40 PM

In all honesty, Al, and without wishing to set a booby trap (not a debating tactic I approve of), do you really think that the US and Oz have got better policies than ours?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:27 PM

The point is, anyone of working age and resident in the EU can come here without restrictions.....that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish.
To me that is absolute madness and hellishly unfair to the people who worked hard and fought two wars to keep us free.
They have to watch their children rot on miserly benefits with no self respect and little chance of a proper job....a country fit for hero's?

Is Australian immigration policy more sensible than ours? Very definitely yes, their immigration policy is aimed at benefitting the whole of the Australian people, not wet nursing the world.

America's borders appear to be pretty porous....but that is illegal immigration, we haven't a bloody clue how many illegal immigrants are here for the beer.

In this area, the police have a round -up every few months and a couple of van loads are collected from the Indian restaurants and kebab shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:54 PM

"The point is, anyone of working age and resident in the EU can come here without restrictions.....that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish."

You just don't listen, do you? You know, I've had PMs from mods defending you, saying that you're entitled, etc., but you don't engage, do you? This thread contains measured posts about why the attitude your comments betray is so misguided. Your remark about hundreds of millions is archetypal UKIP scaremongering. You know damn well that hundreds of millions have no such real-world options. Read the bloody thread and learn, or just knock it off with your illiberal and inhumane nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:03 PM

If we left the EU and remained part of the UK then about 60 million people would still be unrestricted and be able to come and live in Scotland. Our schools and sewage system couldn't possibly cope!!! Then again we all know very well that the entire population of the UK isn't really going to move to Scotland.....Just as we know full well that hundreds of millions of EU citizens aren't coming to the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:05 PM

Simply illustrating the idiocy of the policy Steve. Calm down, haven't you had your hot milk yet? Its after midnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:20 PM

to be honest i know sod all about entry to the states or australia. i find it a bit of a stretch going to poole and bournemouth folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:22 PM

Allan ...of course "hundreds of millions" are not going to come here, but they DO have the option.
What is the limit? or is there no limit?
Net immigration is currently running at 350000 per annum, that's over half a million coming here every year and rising.
We have no means of stopping that without pulling out of the EU

What are we going to do about our own young people on benefits or jobs with zero hours contracts, when another couple of million are here working for low wages.
Its heaven for poor Eastern Europeans, but hell for young Scots.

I don't know where you live Allan but have you ever visited the schemes in the East of Glasgow, Possil, Greenock, Dumbarton, Clydebank?.....I have, been through the stinking high rises, seen the effects of the rampant drug culture.....two lost bewildered and hopeless generations.   rotting away because it's cheaper to import labour than give our children a purpose and a fucking future.

Occasionally I get angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:28 PM

BTW AL Thanks for the link to your music, it's great. Enjoyed "Una Bhan" very much. Your guitar has a terrific tone, mine sounds like a cardboard box in comparison. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:28 PM

"Simply illustrating the idiocy of the policy Steve. Calm down, haven't you had your hot milk yet? Its after midnight."

Without any help from me you have illustrated the idiocy of your scaremongering. And you know me. Never anything other than calm. Sensible post from Allan. Read and learn. If you can read at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:35 PM

Allan, have you been taking lessons in irony from Mr McGrath?

Sewage and Education!....tut tut!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 09:38 PM

i think this is the perennial problem with left wing idealists. my parents were cnd/greepeace/quakers.

they were so excited when michael foot pipped Hattersley for the labour leadership. i said well thats the tories in for the next eight years - i was ten years out.

you can NEVER get these people to appreciate what a bad deal poor people get from the tories, and how vital to basic decency they don't get elected.

i see so clearly what you're saying Ake on this subject. the bottom of society is very bad for poor people in England.

i can remember reasoning with some trotskyists who were refusing to let james callaghan make a single campaign speech in 1979. they really didn't give a shit about the poor children in my classes in the inner ring of brum, and what would befall England if Thatcher got elected. not a fucking clue. it was all taking us towards the great revolution.

this present policy can only benefit one section of our society.

we are wasting our time - you reasoning with a paint by numbers liberalism that is just pandering to their guilty conscience for living in a rich country.

i got the the story legend of Una Bhan from an album by Joe Heaney. i sent it to to the local tourist office in Ireland they didn't seem much interested. the bass is a bit wanky on it - i get impatient - i lack that quietude of mind that produces masterpieces. i still think it s a good idea. they'll love me when i'm dead. possibly...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:41 AM

a href="https://twitter.com/junayed_/status/489807629456523264?s=04">Best Daily Mail correction ever.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:46 AM

Try again...

Best Daily Mail correction ever.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:54 AM

"The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport."
No it isn't and the the fact you are studiously ignoring is that it works both ways and British people can step outside of 'fortress Britain' to seek work and expand their horizons, should they wish - one of the greatest advantages of the E.U. to the British people.
Of course, they could be left to stew in their own juice in Britain's boot camps and on the unemployment lines - (1.6m at present time - and this doesn't include those forced to take unpleasant and inappropriate work in order to stay alive).
One of the great differences between British and Irish youth is that so many of the latter have chased work all around the globe, acquired skills, languages and experience that I have seldom encountered in those back home - and I'm not talking about the ones who have had the benefit of a higher education and are looking for careers.
The end result is a broader-minded, far more internationally tolerant group of young people.
Emigration for work should never be forced on anybody, but it certainly is an advantage when offered as an opportunity.   
".that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish"
"Research conducted by the Migration Policy Institute for the Equality and Human Rights Commission suggests that, between May 2004 and September 2009, 1.5 million workers migrated from the new EU member states to the UK, but that many have returned home, with the result that the number of nationals of the new member states in the UK increased by some 700,000 over the same period.Migration from Poland in particular has become temporary and circular in nature."
SECRET STATISTICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:28 AM

"The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport."
No it isn't ...
Yes it is Jim.
And Dave, there are no restrictions on EU citizens entering UK.
No border restrictions.
The need to buy a ticket is not a restriction.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:31 AM

It is if you have no money.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:37 AM

Dave's link has some anti Mail stuff by Mehdi Hasan.
A different story when he tried to get a job on it.
Hypocrite.

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2013/10/mehdi-hasan-please-please-please-can-i-work-for-the-daily-mail/

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:41 AM

It is if you have no money.

Yes Rag.
There is a similar restriction on many everyday activities, but it is not a border control.
There are no border controls on EU migration.
Such immigration is unrestricted.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:41 AM

Hypocrite or learned by his mistakes? And there is a huge difference between attacks on a newspaper and attacks on an individual. But I thought you may have known that, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:44 AM

And, sorry, PFR, I did see your earlier comment but have only just realised the full significance. Yes, you are right, for anyone to get so hung up on the meaning of one word is pretty silly and very indicative of nothing better to do :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM

Hypocrite or learned by his mistakes

Hypocrite.
See these other examples of him.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/willheaven/100239857/mehdi-hasan-and-the-daily-mail-some-context/

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:21 AM

Yet another link from the past. Any recent examples of his hypocrisy in ridiculing a newspaper that would not give him a job in 2010? Any comment of personal attacks on him by a mail columnist for ridiculing a newspaper rather than a person?

In any case, it is window dressing. Yet more derailing tactics. That is certainly one thing you are good at, Keith. I will concede that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:47 AM

You crowd totally ignore the facts and figures of immigration - no threat to British jobs from immigrants - just from predatory employers and Government policy which allows them to do what they do - nowt to do with immigrants.
You ignore the advantage of free movement of employment to British people unable to find work at home - official.
Your arguments have moved very little from the 'Keep Britain White' campaigns of the 50s and 60s, except they now include Europeans.
Ironically enough, the Beeb has has just announced that the boss of M&S has mounted a stay-in campaign, claiming that the advantages of doing so are enormously important to Britain as a whole.
No time for big business,, but it kicks the Little Englander (preserve our way of life) mob right into touch.
Immigratuion is not a threat to the British people, it never has been and it never will be.
Claims that it is is the domain of ultra-right bigots
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:49 AM

Dave - yeah.. now I'm no military historian, but I've watched enough classic old 1950s Black & White war films
and tripe 1970s Kung Fu movies
to have learnt it's best to chose your battles wisely...

As for squabbling for days on end about just one word ?
There is one amongst us for whom the word 'Pedantic' must have been specially invented and introduced into our language.... 😜

He certainly seems to have a special need for the attention of his 'opponents',
as if to validate his own existence...???

"I argue perpetually and obsessively without end, therefore I am..." ...???

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:59 AM

For Kung Fu moves I would certainly recommend

Kung Pow - The way of the fist

Enjoy :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:01 AM

just a further point.. underneath my sarcasm & sardonic exterior lies a caring human being.

If I actually knew Keith in real life, if he was one of the old blokes down the local pub...

[and I actually do know someone not too dissimilar - our crowd's token right winger..]

Then, there are times you'd want to keep an eye on the old fella just to make sure he's alright
and get's home safe ok...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:02 AM

Sorry - Got the name wrong. Enter the fist (Even better :-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:25 AM

Totally agree with PFR's first point - little point in arguing with people who won't discuss the real issues and stick where they are most comfortable - in this case, 'Little England'
Not sure of his second point though - not sure I could sleep comfortably at the thought of snakes under the bed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:57 AM

Who's "you crowd", Jim??

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:57 AM

ake - are you really blaming immigrants for 2 wasted generations of glaswegians? i'd say there have been several wasted generations in all the less successful parts of the uk - and all over the world. poverty, and all the problems it causes are not caused by immigration -it's capitalism.
it's very simple really. a socialist would understand it instinctively, a communist would know it, if nothing else. a liberal would want to help (a few ) immigrants while excusing the capitalists. only a racist would blame foreigners for all our problems.

big al - call me pedantic but 'i see clearly what you're saying ake. the bottom of society is very bad for poor people in england' -isnae right, pal. he was writing about the glasgow area, still in scotland!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:25 PM

"Totally agree with PFR's first point - little point in arguing with people who won't discuss the real issues and stick where they are most comfortable - in this case, 'Little England' "

So why do you keep arguing with KAoH then - over and over and over ad nauseam?
Thanks for proving me right - you can't stop yourself from feeding the troll.
You're as daft as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:44 PM

"So why do you keep arguing with KAoH then - over and over and over ad nauseam?"
Sort of like Everest - because he's there.
Keith has been haunting this forum for as long as I've been on it - don't recall you offering too much in opposition to his extremism, his dishonesty, insulting behaviour and his excesses.
I've said it before - I would love to see some Muslims on this forum - there was one once I believe.
Over the last year or so Keith has been forced to back down and tone down his behaviour - it hasn't happened out of a sense of respect for other members of this thread, but because he and his phantom historians have become a bit of a joke thanks to those who have stood up to him (as I said - not much sign of you there).
The fact that there are those happy to continue to make immigrants, refugees and gays the butt of their prejudices indicates (I hope) that there are those who are prepared to tell it as it is.
I've mostly enjoyed and benefited from genuine discussion here, but there are occasions when that has been somewhat like trying to carry on a conversation with a fractious child in the room, and when the alternative has been to let those who wish to, "win" something and have the last word.
I personally, don't find that satisfactory.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:03 PM

But that's just the point, Jimbo - if you don't argue with them, if you don't interact with them, they don't 'win' anything at all! How can they 'win' a battle that doesn't exist?

You argue and argue and argue, but they never concede even one tiniest smidgeon of anything you say so, in their minds, they 'win' every time.

And frankly, I care far less about who 'wins' the constant round-and-round childish arguments you crowd persist in forcing on the forum, than I do about the thoughtful, interesting, funny, intelligent people you've driven away, and the interesting, threads you've driven the mods to close.

I don't 'offer too much in opposition to his extremism, his dishonesty, his insulting behaviour and his excesses' quite deliberately, because I believe that virtually everyone here can see precisely those things, and I refuse to lower myself to his level (and that of his few supporters). I'm not wasting my time on shit, and I'm not going to make a bloody daft kid of myself.

That's it, I'm finding myself arguing with those whose opinions I support, but whose tactics, sadly, I deplore. And I'm sad about that but, just like you, I have my own standards to maintain.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 02:01 PM

Backwoodsman, I used to respect you as a realist and a fair minded person and a canny debater, well illustrated on
THIS thread

What has happened to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:04 PM

they don't 'win' anything at all!
Couldn't give a toss whether they win or lose - just wnat them to go away and am prepared to allow them to humiliate themselves -
a - Until they do
or - b as a second best
Either way, the result is the same.
I really have tried to ignore him in the hope he'll go away - doesn't work - he's like a cold sore - you have to let him run his course.
Remind me - have I ever told you what or what not to post - apologies if I have - extremely bad manners - not to mention a tad undemocratic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:11 PM

I really have tried to ignore him in the hope he'll go away

Yeah right, Jim. Of course you have....

Delusional? I'm not judging

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:33 PM

Interesting you should chose that thread. It is too long winded to summarise simply but there are some salient points. Firstly, it was about someone leaving and ake managed to turn it round to his pet subject of compulsory testing for homosexuals. Secondly, he predicted, as he does regularly, that the BS section would be closed. That was over 2 years ago. Finally, the thread was closed by the mods. Something that will inevitably happen here.

Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 05:14 PM

Ake, what happened to me is a bunch of cunts wrecking every thread they involve themselves in, driving decent, reasonable people away, and causing a very undesirable change in moderation policy.nwhich results in otherwise interesting threads being closed.

That's it - argue like idiots until you're all blue in the face. I'm gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:19 PM

i am not ultra right wing.
i am not saying that immigrants are to blame for all england's problems.

i am just pointing out that if i want a job doing. the bloke who does my odd jobs sometimes drops hs prices to tempt me to employ him when i can't really afford him.

similarly when my gig diary was empty looking i would phone up my usual clients and offer them a gig at a reduced price. and i'd do it til my diary was full.

supply and demand.

bring in a load of immigrants. you increase the supply of workers. the money employers have to pay goes down. the conditions he has to give workers get worse.

what part of that constitutes neo fascist ideology. racism. little englander-ism.

why do you find commmon sense, and simple economic facts so bloody impossible to take cognisance of?

one of the places those adventurous Irish youths used expand their horizons to was Lincolnshire where they would learn complex skills and face challenges like loading a pea viner. Bob Geldof tells of his summer in Boston in his biography.

not really worth their while any more because they've been undercut by various EU people. pity we didn't keep the Irish out originally, then they would have had to paid lincolnshire a decent rate. anyway - i suppose once the principle had been established.....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:37 AM

You've nailed it Al, It's a con and some here have swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:40 AM

I continue to be horrified by the thought that Akenhateon (so clearly here displaying his hatred of others) can think that he is in any way a socialist. And to object to a nickname that so clearly describes him is most unenglish. It seems he doesn't understand England at all. Jim clearly has the moral high ground here - and also lanced KtheA over the latter's attempt to redefine "the Guardian". Typical KtheA attempt at weaselwording.

An EU summary of freedom of movement is here - http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457

It is not a right of unrestricted immigration. It may be less restricted than the racists here would like but it is not unrestricted. I am, however, not convinced that Bob Geldof was an unalloyed asset to England, and it vaguely looks as if some of his immediate family might have agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:53 AM

I agree with some of what you say Big Al, you are certainly correct.


"the money employers have to pay goes down. the conditions he has to give workers get worse"

However you blame immigrant workers and NOT the employer. I think you have that the wrong way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 07:16 AM

Richard,
It may be less restricted than the racists here would like but it is not unrestricted.

Please help us out by detailing the restrictions against EU citizens entering this country.

Some nonsense has been posted about me here.
Bwm, you liken me to your "token right winger" but I am not right wing at all.
I have asked many times, but no-one has ever produced a right wing view from me.
That is because I have none.
Jim accuses me of "extremism, his dishonesty, insulting behaviour and his excesses."
Completely false. He will find no example of any one.
Jim also says,
"Keith has been forced to back down and tone down his behaviour "

I have not changed at all!
More tosh.

Challenge what I actually post instead of personal attacks on me please.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 07:30 AM

"Challenge what I actually post instead of personal attacks on me please."


We challenge the excessive amount you post

We challenge the 'passive aggressive' antagonistic and provocative nature of what you post...


Calling you a right winger is an objective statement of fact
- from most rational perspectives of the political spectrum, apart from your own...

Some might even consider you an extreme right winger ...???

On the other hand, Genghis Khan might think your'e a bit of a wet softy... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 07:52 AM

I do not post excessively.
My posts are short.
Sometimes I have to field posts from several people, but it is not my posts that predominate.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 07:58 AM

Calling you a right winger is an objective statement of fact


I am of the centre.
I have voted for all three parties, and voted Labour under Blair.
I was briefly a member of the Green Party, otherwise no party affiliations.

I get called right wing by left wingers who have no other reply to what I say.
Can you identify a right wing view I have ever posted?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 08:10 AM

I do not post excessively.

Let me see, ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED POSTS THIS YEAR ALONE. Nearly SIXTEEN THOUSAND in 15 years.

Over 500 on a subject you admit you have not read about and have no interest in.

Excessive ................. of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 08:42 AM

"Can you identify a right wing view I have ever posted?"

Well from my perspective as a moderate centre to 'loony' left, with somewhat right leaning views on law 'n' order,
lifelong labour voter...

I'd say most probably, 99.9999999...% definitely.. yes..

That is if I could be bothered wasting time trawling through all your posts on a forensic search for 'evidence'...

But as it is, I've got housework to do, computers to fix, guitars that wont play themselves,
elderly mother phoning with new problems to deal with every day... etc.. etc.. etc..

Mudcat can only be allocated occasional 10 minute bursts of my attention
and I'd rather spend that time learning from wise well informed articulate posters,
or being amused by the daft jokes & flights of imagination of talented creative writers....


get the drift..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 09:40 AM

Re number of posts on Mudcat
According to Boardreader, top authors during last week.
No1 Steve Shaw 166
No2 Guest 111
No 3 Keith A of Hertford 80

If you discount Guest on account of it being many people Keith would be number 2

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 11:08 AM

Keith, it's on the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 11:32 AM

"
I continue to be horrified by the thought that Akenhateon (so clearly here displaying his hatred of others) can think that he is in any way a socialist. And to object to a nickname that so clearly describes him is most unenglish. It seems he doesn't understand England at all"

Richard, could you please explain the above diatribe?
I have been a socialist all my life, I think Robert Tressell's book started me off, In fact many of the Mudcat membership could be straight out of "Mugsborough".... I have a little game matching them up, I won't let you into the secret of your particular character as you probably wouldn't like it very much. :0)

I see myself as Owen smiling and reasoning against ideological idiocy, sometimes getting angry, but not often, letting opponents hang themselves with their vicious anger.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 11:40 AM

Additionally, I wish you had the intelligence to be a little more specific in your charges of "hatred", continually repeating the word proves nothing ....could it be that you have no evidence of "hatred" from me and just wish to create that impression?

I have already stated that if I lived in an Eastern European "hell hole", I would also be an economic migrant.
The fault is not with the immigrants but with the "EU project"

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 01:27 PM

'However you blame immigrant workers and NOT the employer. I think you have that the wrong way round.'

its no ones fault, though maybe god's got a lot to answer for.

its the laws of supply and demand - rather like the laws of gravity.

if god had arranged it that we had we had infinite supplies of everything in England, everything would be hunky dory.

its that miserable bleeder's fault

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 01:40 PM

So, Steve has more than double my posts, and mine are very brief.

Pfr, do not pretend you could find examples if you had time.
The fact is that I have never posted a RW view and your assertion is baseless.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 01:56 PM

ake - come on, you just wrote that 2 generations of people in the glasgow area had been 'wasted' or had their lives ruined because of immigration. don't you reckon that a socialist might have looked at other reasons for this - capitalism for example?

i see a headline in the paper today that 1% of the world's population now own 50% of the world's wealth. this thread is about the tory party conference - obviously they are totally happy with this state of affairs. however, many of you folk on here would rather divert the thread onto the subject of a few thousand people crossing borders into the uk. i've nothing against thread drift but be aware it does make you look at least a bit racist. you are letting the tories define 'the problem' for you and letting them off the hook.

entirely reasonable behaviour for tory sympathisers - but please don't call yourself socialist. or liberal. or green. or decent.....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 02:10 PM

"Pfr, do not pretend you could find examples if you had time.
The fact is that I have never posted a RW view and your assertion is baseless."

...well... errr... seeing as you are so certain and dogmatic... you must be... errrmm.. right... 😏

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 02:19 PM

Achmelvich, you have completely misunderstood my post, of course unregulated immigration has not caused the plight of a huge number of young people in the UK, BUT it is hindering the resolving of their predicament......I am a life long member of the CP, until I changed my vote to SNP, but not my ideals. An independent Scotland is more likely to construct the sort of society which I favour.

While huge numbers of low paid immigrants come here, our own young people will never receive the help they need to get worthwhile satisfying jobs. Capitalism will use the cheapest form of labour available, "to hell with the countries being denuded of workers to run their own public services or build up their own economy, to hell with expensive to train UK citizens who require a house of their own, a wife and a couple of kids. Unregulated immigration can make us competitive in the global economy.....let them rot"

"Decency"?.....you have no understanding of the problem, or obviously, the meaning of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:05 PM

'it's heaven for poor eastern europeans but hell for young scots' i'd say poverty and lack of opportunity is hell for anyone - no matter where they are from. immigrants are doing their best to improve their lives and given a chance will do what they can to improve the areas they arrive in. i've been out of work a few times and twice moved up to aberdeenshire (from cumbria) for care jobs. i wouldn't say it was heaven but it was a beautiful area and good for my family. anyone have a problem with that?

'we need to train our own young people to run our public services rather than rely on cheaper immigrants'

our public services need to be properly financed and run, the staff trained and with secure jobs. this isn't happening, and in the care sector, never has. not the fault of immigrants, it's the fault of the fucked up values of our system.

the people who currently run the system are surely not 'decent'- the people who excuse or them should maybe take a closer look at the realities of the problem. it's capitalism, not people.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:14 PM

"Pfr, do not pretend you could find examples if you had time.
The fact is that I have never posted a RW view and your assertion is baseless."

Oh btw.. it's not just lack of time - please understand, it's mostly lack of inclination...

I just don't care to get drawn into your game...

Tell you what.. here's a new one we can play.

You use your skills of empathy and imagination to pretend you are me;
and you search back through all your posts to find any possible hint or clue
that could a lead moderately extreme lefty like me [remember it's you pretending to be me]
to even remotely misinterpret your writing as indicating that you are a right winger...

Award yourself 10 points for every potential scrap of evidence, no matter how insignificant or seemingly irrelevant...
or how much you are sitting in front of your screen scratching your head with a glazed expression on your face...

right.. sounds like fun.. ????

Let's call this new game: "What could I have possibly said that makes folks think I am a right winger ???"........ 😐

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:18 PM

I think it is more likely, unregulated capitalism, achmelvich (Guess 03:05 PM is you?) Now, that really is unregulated and has gone completely out of control. The Tories, as you say, love it and as I said earlier their media mates are happy to create scare stories about immigration to fool people. Sadly lots are obviously still being fooled :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:25 PM

yes -sorry - the most recent 'guest' was me

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:32 PM

there was just a programm on telly about loch lomond. one of the blokes taking care of it was called David Cameron. then another chap came on - riding a horse round the lake, and his name was Roy Rogers.

perhaps you need a famous name to get a job in Scotland.

i bet they have parties where they go ,och aye! I'm Clint Eastwood...this ma friend Elvis Presley!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:23 AM

Pfr, I know myself.
I oppose right wing views as much as I oppose the left.
I know I have never expressed a RW view, and if I had you would I am sure remember something of it.

You are not alone in believing that any criticism of your LW dogma must be RW.
Do you not understand that there is a middle ground where I and most of the population stand?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:56 AM

Once again you're appealing to the majority, a well-known version of a logical fallacy. You are an unconditional supporter of the extreme right-wing regime currently endured by the unfortunate citizens of Israel. You won't hear any criticism of them and you defend or deny their most egregious wrongdoings such as the mass killings of citizens in Gaza, the theft of the best Palestinian land for settlements, the construction of an apartheid wall that divides farms and families and the 1982 massacres in Lebanon. This is a clear example of your right-wing leanings and I'm not responding to any attempt you may make to revive the Israel squabble.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:41 AM

Steve,

I think that you're wrong to accuse Keith of using an argumentum ad populum here.

Taking the (I think reasonable) assumption that left to right political views have a normal distribution, Keith's statement is entirely valid.

Where he stands on the continuum is irrelevant, and something I don't care to argue about.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 05:52 AM

"Do you not understand that there is a middle ground where I and most of the population stand?"

This is a constant tactic of Keith's, aligning himself with the safe mainstream masses. In fact, he uses mainstream quite a lot. His attitudes to Israel, immigration, at least one ethnic minority in this country and his defence of Tory politicians are, er, just a tiny giveaway, huh? As for left-right displaying a bell curve, well you have a big uphill struggle there, your biggest hurdle being to define your terms. I look forward with interest to hearing your more detailed take on your, er, reasonable assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:37 AM

"You are not alone in believing that any criticism of your LW dogma must be RW.
Do you not understand that there is a middle ground where I and most of the population stand?"

Keith - The presumption that anyone with a different view to yours must be your 'adversarial opponent',
an ideologue with a blind adherence to extremist socialist dogma,
is a near certain indication of a right wing mindset.

Yes of course I understand there is a middle ground.
I for one have always saught a consensual non confrontational resolution to disputes.
My stance in interactions is one of self disciplined objectivity and neutrality.

I have never been a member of any political party,
and have voted Labour every time out of reasoned 'best choice' rather than habitual conformity..
[Apart from the the failed experiment of voting for Liberals in the tory safe seat where I reside
- which was rewarded with betrayal and a cynical coalition].

Yours is a so typical recognisable symptom of right wing arrogance,
to insist that you commandeer the reasonable common sense middle ground,
whilst dismissing your imagined 'enemies' as for instance "you lot" / "all you lefties" / etc..
or any variant on a theme that lefties are naive simpletons who all act and think the same....

To emphatically insist that I or anyone else who actually uses their brain & education to think for them self
is some kind of political innocent...

is... well it's rather a bit of a give away of your subordination to a dominant culture of right wing ideology.....

Now if you were only as entertaining as Alf Garnett... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:45 AM

Great last line there, mate! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:56 AM

As for left-right displaying a bell curve... your biggest hurdle being to define your terms

Agreed. The terms are probably more difficult to define than 'folk'. That's why I used the word 'assumption'. I used the word 'reasonable' in that every successful UK government of recent decades has concluded that appealing the 'centre ground' is essential, hence my conclusion that the centre holds the majority.

Again, you may well argue as to what that means and disagree. However, we'd only get into a pointless semantic discussion. And I'm not doing that, but I stand by what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:13 AM

That's reasonable enough! I do think any assessment of Keith, which is probably not worth sweating over in any case, should be based on his long history here, not a denial in his most recent post. The bottom line is that he resents being called right-wing yet wishes to espouse just about every right-wing angle of the topics that come up. The answer to his displeasure lies in his own hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:28 AM

I think you see everything you read in black and white. Keith and I disagree about many things, but I cannot fault his reason, his research, or his personal credibility.

Keith has been vilely abused for years, for pointing out the inherent flaws in mass unrestricted immigration.

Remember when this issue first came up how you called him a bigot and a racist just for discussing the topic.

Now only the ideologically blind or the terminally stupid cling to the idea that we can continue to accept the present rates of immigration.
How about a mass apology to someone brave enough to "think the unthinkable" amongst a hostile company?

This is the value of Mudcat, it exposes cant and cronyism.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:36 AM

Bearing in mind the last time I needed to draw a graph was in my Economics A Level in 1977....

I visualise my political make up as a waveform similar to a recorded music track in a software DAW,
or to a heart rate monitor blip screen in Hollywood action movies
where the innocent victim is in a near death condition after a shooting.


If the vertical axis depicts extreme left to right,
and the horizontal is a list of political issues....

Then I see my waveform as fairly consistently flat in the centre on mixed market economics / green environment /
any issues I have no strong opinion on, or lack sufficient knowledge or interest;
with leftward spikes on Trade Unions & industrial relations/ health & safety /social housing /healthcare..
and veering right directional spikes on law and order / conventional defence [non nuke] /
mobile phone users with irritating ring tones...

I think I might be wary of, or prepared to take the piss out of anyone with all their spikes
or even a dead flat line way off in either extreme from zero point in the centre... 😜

But it does make sense to be constantly self aware of your own wave form just as a health and sanity check up....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM

Now only the ideologically blind or the terminally stupid cling to the idea that we can continue to accept the present rates of immigration.

Why? Because the politicians say so? Because the newspapers say so? Does anyone actually think for themselves any more or is it all based on what they are told by their 'betters', by 'experts' with hidden agendas and on what the majority think?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:46 AM

My name's Rob Roy MacGegor, I'm a personal friends of Winston Churchill....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 08:57 AM

What the majority thinks ! God forbid that we pay any attention to that .

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:10 AM

Ever had a look at the UKIP manifesto. One wonderful example:

"Abolish inheritance tax. Assets bought out of taxed income should not be taxed again when their owners die. We will strike out the hated 'death tax.' It hits the middle classes hardest, those who have worked to provide for their dependents, because the wealthiest almost always manage to avoid paying it"

Not lets change the law so that no-one can avoid paying the tax, the threshold for payment after expenses is £325,000 by the way, but lets abolish the tax because some people get away without paying.

Brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:16 AM

Another piece just for Ake:

"UKIP believes the Barnett Formula has passed its sell-by date.
Spending has become increasingly unfair, with Scotland receiving
a considerably higher per capita spend, despite moving towards
further tax-raising and spending powers of its own. Scotland receives almost £1,400 more per person in public spending than the UK average and nearly £450 more than Wales. This is why Scotland is able to spend in a manner not possible elsewhere in the UK"

and:

"Scotland has 'markedly lower overall need than Wales"

Scotland up S**t Creek without a paddle if UKIP were ever elected me thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:29 AM

"Remember when this issue first came up how you called him a bigot and a racist just for discussing the topic."

This is just a lie, and a pretty silly one at that. You make things up as you go along, you poor thing.

"What the majority thinks ! God forbid that we pay any attention to that."

A huge majority was in favour of keeping hanging just before we abolished it. A huge majority in Germany in the 30s supported Hitler. We should pay attention to it all right, and then decide that we are not sheep.

If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. -- Henry David Thoreau

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:46 AM

I agree we need to pay attention to the majority, it is what I meant in my post.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:50 AM

Fine, but that was not the sentiment of that post, and you know it. You were being sarcastic and your sarcasm was misplaced. However.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:11 AM

'
Now only the ideologically blind or the terminally stupid cling to the idea that we can continue to accept the present rates of immigration.

Why? Because the politicians say so? Because the newspapers say so? Does anyone actually think for themselves any more or is it all based on what they are told by their 'betters', by 'experts' with hidden agendas and on what the majority think?'

well Dave i think a fair indication of the fact that things have come to a pretty pass is when someone recounts to you in a fair reasonable manner ( refusing to embellish with anything he didn't see or hear)an incident that befell him, and he gets denounced as making a racist remark.

like it said in a few good men, you can't handle the truth. or recognise genuine concern. disagreement with your extremely limited and doctrinaire viewpoint is ascribed dastardly motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:17 AM

Big Al, Could I make a suggestion without you having a go at me. There is only one person who keeps bringing this issue to the fore. Why not drop the matter as there is only one person being damaged by the recurrence of it.

Best Wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:11 AM

Al - As I said before. Every time you bring it up I shall mention that your recollection of events is different to mine. I believe you made a racist remark and said so. I gave you the opportunity to explain as I believe you are not really a racist. Instead of doing so, you spat out your dummy and stormed off in a huff. You know you are right. I know I am right. No one can substantiate any of it.

Feel free to keep on mentioning it as I now have the above as a note I can C&P every time. I suggest however, as Raggy does, that you get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:19 AM

you really don't get it.

keith gets called right wing

ake a homophobe.

i get called the kind of person who goes round making racist remarks.

you are hurtful, and none of you give a shit how hurtful.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:33 AM

Sorry, Al, but you pressed on this.

You really don't get it. You call east Europeans criminals. That is hurtful to me and you don't give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 10:10 AM

No he didn't. Your attack on him, Dave, was nasty and uncalled for. I remember it well, one of the nastier incidents on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 10:27 AM

so not long after the Keith & Jim feud quiets down a bit..

the Al & Dave feud kicks off again..

Can't these things just be settled with a public pillow fight
staged on a plank over a large kiddie's paddling pool filled with jelly or baked beans...

At least that might help a raise a few quid for charity... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 11:12 AM

well look. its just this. if you'e got an opinion - i think thats fair enough. i f you've got an opinion about someone else's opinion - that's fair enough. there are ways to go about expressing your opinion without abuse and name calling.

if you are an lying abusive lout. become an MP , and go on prime ministers questions time. go on the jeremy kyle show - there are avenues for you to express yourself.

mudcat can really do without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 12:45 PM

there again, PFR, Keith does in my opinion talk 24 carat bollocks about the first world war. the general impression yu get talking to veterans of ww1 and ww2. is that they really had to watchrheir arse as the officers were always handing out orders that could have got you killed every day.

however it is not up to me to deduce that he is some sort of fascist. right wing and left wing? Stalin handed out a fair few stupid orders to commit suicide.

No one has any business impugning Keith's character.

Ake's views on same sex marriage remind me of the same sort of shit my Dad used to talk. And he was a policeman who used to spend his time trying to catch cottaging gays. I have seen the lecture notes supplied with a lecture that taught that anal intercourse could kill you.

However I don't know how Ake came about his views. Perhaps he came into contact with same bonkers brigade that educated my Dad.Its a thundering cheek to pretend that his views give you an insight into his character.

And I'm not a person who goes round making racist comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:18 PM

Sorry, PFR, but I am only responding to some very serious allegations here. Al said that east Europeans were criminals, increased crime in the areas in which they settled and then denied having said it. I didn't imagine it. I didn't make it up. I was very sensitive to it at the time as I had just lost my (Polish) Father and was rather taken aback to find that some believed him to come from criminal stock, even though he was the most honest person I have ever known.

I know one truth. Al, apparently, knows another one. Luckily for him the thread in question was deleted. Luckily for me it doesn't matter who believes who as my work means that I do not have to win friends and influence people. Unluckily for Al, his occupation means just that and if I were a music promoter reading this I would have serious doubts about booking someone who may not be entirely honest.

Even after all that I am happy to let it lie. But, as you can see, Al wants to resurrect it at every opportunity regardless of what damage it is doing to both Mudcat and himself. Takes all sorts to make a world...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:25 PM

Al - you're one of my favourite blokes here...

Jim/Steve/Dave/Ake [yes even Ake]/ and all the other usual characters..

I like and respect different aspects about all of them as well..

Just much as I can find things to criticize, or even dislike about some of 'em....

Keith is different.. I find him very boring and far too disruptive, and a liability.

So if I appear to be having a go at him, it's basically out of self interest..

He seems to be the one who most derails the threads I enjoy,
usually starting the rot that brings them to a premature end.

Now I don't even dislike Keith.. He's probably too bland to upset me that much,

But I just wish he'd think more carefully about how he gives the impression to other people
that he is right wing.

He clearly doesn't like being evaluated as a right winger.

So surely it would help him and us if he tried to became a little bit more self aware and considerate
of how he presents his persona to all the rest of us.
Plus the mainly negative impact he has on what start out as and interesting and entertaining discussions ....???

I come here to waste a few minutes leaning from and being cheered up
by seriously good quality wise and creative minds...

What is frustrating about Keith, is he is clearly an intelligent bloke, who can make solid astute points in a debate
whenever he's not droning on with petty dragged out pedantic squabbles.....

Now I'm no amateur psychologist..
but for Keith's and our own mutual benefit - maybe we could view this as a positive friendly community effort
at 'intervention'...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:35 PM

No he didn't. Your attack on him, Dave, was nasty and uncalled for. I remember it well, one of the nastier incidents on mudcat.

HiLo. You are simply wrong. It was called for. I have confirmation from a very reliable source that it was as I have said. But there is no point in trading memories and, without the required validation, there is even less point in trying to prove or disprove anything. I will ask you to look at the past few times it has been mentioned though to see who brought the subject up in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

So, anyway, I am always to to use the phrase 'it did not matter who started it. It is who finished it that counts.' I am more than happy to stand by that adage and stop right here and now, Al. How about it? You don't bring it up. I will not respond. Only a handful of people read these things anyway and even those will have forgotten in a day or two. Surely you don't want to continue the same argument on every thread that you get the opportunity to, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:48 PM

Dave - I make no secret that I save all threads that I've posted to, or interest me.

[It actually helped out a little bit to restore some of the damage after the last great Mudcat server crash]

But annoyingly, my own Hard Drive failure during summer lost all data that hadn't been backed up since last Nov.

Including one inexcusably deleted thread with some excellent insightful posts from Joe.

So if your thread was before Nov 2014, there's a chance I might still have it on a back up drive somewhere....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 02:00 PM

Thanks for the offer, PFR, but as my Dad passed away in January this year I do know it was after that. I think it was towards the end of May this year but, to be honest, I can't confirm that. I can't even remember what the thread was about and it would have been entirely forgotten by now had the argument not have been resurrected by someone. I don't like feuds but I will stand up for myself if someone keeps having a go at me! If you can find anything from around the end of May-ish I would appreciate it as it may help to close the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 02:21 PM

Sorry, I lost everything [all six months of links to resources and articles, and saved info] between Nov and June-ish

I was actually preparing a much delayed back up when the drive suddenly refused to switch back on ever again...

A Lesson to be learnt there.. 😞

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

nobody likes being described as a racist, doesn't mean they aren't. no-one it seems likes being described as right-wing either but obviously there must be a few around. i can honestly say that i have had less than half a dozen conversations with folk prepared to argue a Conservative point of view in my life. i reckon that UKIP supporters are preferable to tories, as at least they are far more honest about their views and more likely to argue their case. scarier but not as sleekit.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 03:16 PM

Ah well - Thanks anyway PFR. Much appreciated. I backed up mine last week - It had been 3 months since the last one! Must do it more regularly. You would think being a computer specialist I would but you know what they say - The cobblers wife is always poorest shod. Or something like that.

Anyway, back to the Tories. Did you see PMs questions? Bunch of hooray Henrys laughing at the plight of the poor. If nothing else, Jeremy Corbyn is showing the Tories off in all their heartlessness. If any more proof was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 03:34 PM

i could have easily have lied in the first instance, and said that i heard Polish accents. I didn't. I am honest.

You are dishonest and abusive Dave.

You wish to bury your lies and dishonesty with bluster.

You have no shame. Thankfully I found outlets for my music outside the folkscene.

Never had to pander to likes of malevolent nowters.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:00 PM

i suppose you want me to say.

lets forget. and you will go on picking on the people you see as unpopular or marginalised and seeping in poison.

i can't promise to be on hand every time the mods let you get away with it. but everytime i see you at it, it reminds me of how i felt when iwas the object of your censure.

i doubt i will be able to keep quiet on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:32 PM

No lies or dishonesty from me, Al, and there is only one person I can see blustering with abuse rather than reason. But if that is the way you want to play it, so be it.

You said specifically that there was a crowd of east Europeans looting a shop when you had no evidence at all that they were east Europeans.

You reported that an old friend of yours from the police force said that crime increases where there is a high influx of your east Europeans.

These are, in my mind, both racist comments.

Feel free to carry on. I will lend you my shovel if you like but I really would recommend that you stop digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:56 PM

'You reported that an old friend of yours from the police force said that crime increases where there is a high influx of your east Europeans.'

i have no old friends in the police force so i know this another damned lie.

the other one was outed by Hi-lo, whom i don't know.

you and your friends pick on the tainted wethers of the flock cos you think you can get away with being very nasty bullies. it is just so despicable. you make the air around you on mudcat foul - you are SO out of control.

then you wonder why threads get closed - not me guv.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:54 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 12:45 PM

Ake's views on same sex marriage remind me of the same sort of shit my Dad used to talk. And he was a policeman who used to spend his time trying to catch cottaging gays. I have seen the lecture notes supplied with a lecture that taught that anal intercourse could kill you.
...
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:56 PM

'You reported that an old friend of yours from the police force said that crime increases where there is a high influx of your east Europeans.'

i have no old friends in the police force so i know this another damned lie.


Is your Dad not an old friend then? Do you not know any of his former colleagues? Carry on digging, Al. I am happy to help.

It is abuse like calling people liars that gets threads closed. I could well have been mistaken about the police bit but old friend it definitely was. Followed by you making some excuse about 'single men in barracks'. It is not made up.

Are you really going to follow me round every thread chanting names in the hope I go away? Sad really and it won't work. Except to get threads closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:47 AM

no he left in 1965. he's dead, so's everyone who knew him - i expect.

so basically the scenario we are faced with this morning.

you intend to carry on denouncing people from your unassailable position of moral superiority. you intend to carry on abusing, distorting and getting hot under the collar if anyone cuts up rough at the antics of the nasty gang.
and the platform you have chosen for this is a humble, idealistic website about folk music.

believe you would fit in so much better on the platform of the tory party conference. they would love and honour you. Peter LIlley used to do these wonderful speeches denouncing unmarried mother, disabled people and other such stinkers -used to go down a storm. they'd love you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 05:11 AM

you intend to carry on denouncing people from your unassailable position of moral superiority. you intend to carry on abusing, distorting and getting hot under the collar if anyone cuts up rough at the antics of the nasty gang.

I am not sure where to start with that but I will try

- I have no position of 'moral superiority'. I am no better or worse than anyone else.

- I have not distorted anything

- I do not get hot under the collar.

- I may denounce and abuse but only when the situation warrants it. EG, now.

You are talking through your arse. I know what happened. You know what happened. They are two different views that, luckily for you, no one can substantiate. You are making allegations about me that far outstrip anything that I am supposed to have said about you and you do so at every opportunity. If anyone is being vindictive it is obvious who it is. Luckily, your opinion of me is none of my business and no one of any consequence to me would believe a word you say anyway. Feel free to carry on with your futile vendetta but remember to get more blood pressure tablets before you blow a fuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:47 AM

Al, This is the post you placed:

"People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston. As keith says - its very easy if you live faraway from a problem to get sniffy and dismiss what other people are going through.
I suppose i am a comfortable lefty these days. boston was an insular sort of town - maybe the awakening was long overdue. but i think its been a rough passage for boston people. ! stood on boston green. an old school friend, who nowadays runs a quid shop was standing next to me.. Somme Eastern european looters ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. i sad - why don't you call the police? no point Al, he said. nothing to be done there. my old man was a cop in boston. god knows what he would have made of it"

In the post you PRESUMED the looters were eastern European, you did not KNOW they were and that is the bit that matters. That is the bit that caused offense.

Now as I said yesterday I would really suggest you stop mentioning the subject. Time to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM

That last post was I

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:47 AM

Thank you, Raggy.

...at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston...

Is just one of the comments I railed against. There were others. I think this supports my indignation. Maybe I was being over sensitive but I did offer every opportunity to explain. That was thrown back in my face and I was called every sort of name under the sun.

I am still happy to let it drop but I suspect it will not be.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:37 AM

The legendary Hatfield–McCoy feud festered on for nearly half a century....

But at least they got a very entertaining mini series out of it,
with loads of exciting violent gun fights and murders.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:55 AM

I had never heard of it PFR so I looked it up :-)

For those interested.

Don't think i can beat that!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 09:03 AM

Pistols at dawn would keep the thread shorter. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:21 AM

I would prefer PFRs earlier suggestion of a pillow fight over a pool of jelly. But then again it does go against my restraining order...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:32 AM

i didn't presume the they were eastern europe. but iam an honest decent man. i knew they were. i could not   remember why i knew. i was unwilling to lie on this point. i could have fabricated evidence

you were willing to lie by calling this a racist comment. rather than an account of events that befell me and things that were said on a rare visit to my home town

no apology about your lie saying i had been talking to policemen.

in conclusion

you are an abusive liar.
you have neither honesty. straightforwardness. nor decency. coupled with that is veiled threat to smear my name.

simple as.

people will have to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:59 AM

I am happy to apologise for saying you were talking to a policeman. I have already said I could well be mistaken about the policeman comment but if it makes you happier, sorry for saying it. I was obviously conflating two sets of ideas in one. In my defense, it has been proven that both lawlessness and police were mentioned by you in the same post and it was almost 6 moths ago.

It is not a lie to call it a racist comment. It is a racist comment, simple as that. Both the comment about it being east Europeans looting and them causing lawlessness are propagating a negative image of east Europeans. Which make them racist comments. Why should I apologise for a lie that I have not committed? Neither have I made any threats, veiled or otherwise, but you have accused me of making something up that has now been proven to be true. I do not expect an apology as you were obviously mistaken, as I was about the policeman. We all make mistakes. Once again I make the same offer. You stop bringing it up and I will stop telling my side of the story. It really is a no-brainer.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:01 PM

...back to the Tory party conference. I think pistols at dawn would be a good idea there. It could halve the Tory party in one morning. Except they would probably all miss...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:05 PM

Al, I am caught between a rock and a hard place. Firstly I know Dave slightly and the little time I have spent with him leads me to believe he is a good man. I read your post as mentioned below and thought "how can you know" that the perpetrators where Eastern European. With the evidence you put forward you could not KNOW and I could quite easily consider it a racist remark as Dave has done.

They may well have been Eastern European, equally they may have come from Lancashire. Without specific knowledge your statement was at best ill judged and at worst........................

I realise you are upset at the accusation and would suppose from your vehement denials that you are not racist but given the evidence I don't KNOW

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:28 PM

well i did know they were eastern european, but i can't remember why i knew. they didn't come from Lancashire.

do you remember how you knew that you made an evaluation of everything. something in this case that happened in the twinkling of an eye - several years before. however, iam quite positive of what was my experience was. i am not being dishonest or prejudiced.

there was no malevolence in my comments. just a simple account of something that happened to me. there was no racism in my heart.

there is however an extraordinary amount of self righteousness in the way Dave has done this. you can see his insistence that he is right about an incident he wasn't there at. something that is of no account to him.

all i can say is, his attitude is here for all to see. when you're with a friend like this, watch your back.

at stake is the fact that i don't like being characterised as someone who goes through the world making racist comments. Dave thinks i should let it drop and accept his judgement about myself - made in public - not going to!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 12:43 PM

One of my best mates since grammar school is definitely not racist.
Far from it, he goes out of his way to forge links with overseas musicians and artists;
and works actively to look after the needs of refugees
and make all feel welcome.
He is an internationalist socialist.

But from his careless casual language amongst old pals
he could be overheard and misconstrued as a bit of a old fashioned racist
[and homophobe - I'm fairly sure he's not really that either..].

Stupid language lapsed into for transgressive old schoolboy humour effect after too many pints.....???

Like me he is a child of the early 60s with deep ingrained cultural influences
from dodgy 60s and 70s TV comedy and sitcoms.
But he has stayed most of his life in a small backwater W. Country town.

Technically, some of his words are, by higher educated modern standards, 'racist'
and he is daft not to have stopped using them outside his own house and closest circle of old mates...

Though, where he lives, works, and drinks,
he is surrounded day to day by real bonehead ignorant Daily Mail readership racism......

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:24 PM

you can see his insistence that he is right about an incident he wasn't there at.

I am not and never have insisted anything at all about the incident. As you say, I was not there. What I know I am right about is that both remarks are, in my opinion and that of many others, racist.

Simplistic gnomish lesson (I know no other sort) in racism...
Gang of east Europeans looting = racist
Gang of criminals looting = not racist
very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston = racist
very upset at the current lawlessness in Boston = not racist

Is it so difficult to understand that when race is mentioned in a negative light it is racist? Can you not see that by repeating negative stereotypes it is feeding the flames of racism?

I have insisted over and over again that I believe that the remarks were made carelessly rather than maliciously and have given ample opportunity for you to confirm that. Instead you have accused me of everything from being deceitful to threatening you. Neither is true nor are the many other accusations you make against me but I am happy to let those go as anyone who know me knows they are simply not true. Just as anyone you know will, I am sure, confirm that you are not a racist. Let it go for heavens sake before you do yourself any serious damage.

PFR - Nail on the head. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:41 PM

Btw... I'm quarter Polish/Russian border jew by blood..

My old mum seriously believes her jewish half makes her genetically mean with money.
Something she is genuinely proud of.

It would be embarrassing and 'offensive' if some of you heard her..

These are truthful examples:

Stopping on the pavement of a busy shopping hight st to stoop over and pick up a dropped penny,
proudly declaring "it must be the Jew in me"..

Standing in a shop and questioning the price of items with the till assistant

"I don't like wasting money and spending too much.. it must be my jewish blood.."

I could continue - I've had years of public embarrassment walking round town with her.....

It's a small town where some of the more extreme right wing thug factions
would instantly agree with her that "that's what jews are like"...


I'm happy to trust that Al is not a racist, same as I can understand Dave's [over ?]sensitivity on the issue...


Im my simplistic world view..

when two of the good guys fall out and fight.... that's another minor victory for the tories.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:59 PM

so everyone has to lie about what they experience. or risk being upbraided by you.

they have to edit the truth.

the truth is not racist. not communist. not pacifist. not of any particular political complexion.

its just the truth.

some of us tell the truth. some don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:15 PM

so everyone has to lie about what they experience. or risk being upbraided by you.

Not in the slightest, Al. You experienced a bunch of criminals looting a shop. End of story. Whether they were east Europeans, Black, White or Martian should not and does not have any relevance.

And what about you repeating the lie that east Europeans increase lawlessness? You seem to be concentrating the statement that I found least offensive and ignoring the other one. Why is that?

PFR - Same here. One if my Mum's favourite phrases is 'I'm not a Jew, just a careful Christian.' Acceptable from an 84 year old lady but, hopefully, getting less and less mainstream.

And, yes, you are right about ordinary run of the mill blokes like us arguing. Which is why I keep suggesting putting an end to it. But while I am being accused of lying, threatening, making things up and all sorts of other nonsense, I will keep defending myself.

I am, for the record, keeping a full record of this thread from the point that the subject was brought up again. Just in case.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:20 PM

...anyway, it's Friday night. (It's 5 o'clock and it's CRACKERJACK! - Remember that?) I had a real bad start to the day with a call at 4am but have had 2 excellent bits of news since. A very nice bottle of chilled Chilean Sauvignon Blanc awaits. Any thing I post later may be somewhat nonsensical...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

I'm chuffed because I took delivery today of my first Electro-harmonix Big Muff Pi fuzz box
since I owned one for a few weeks in 1978 [only 39 quid brand new from Germany]...

Now if any machine can kill fascists.. that gnarly nasty fuzzcker should... !!! 😎

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:30 PM

keep on saying nothings happening

Al's a liar, a racist, a stinker.

hands over your ears. turn up the big muff to 11. no ones allowed to repeat what they've seen and heard. not if disagree with Dave's view of the cosmos.

it may work. i wish you joy of it. and i wish those who give Dave encouragement in his one eyed view of the world a peaceful night.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-20193087

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:57 PM

I did say the rest of tonight may be nonsense. Al, your intellect appears to have been overtaken by the velocity of its own exuberance. Why don't you just take a step back and look at yourself. (It would have been easier to say why don't you just fuck off, but I am not so crude.)

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 05:22 PM

Al - I said, I think quite unmistakeably, that i don't accept or believe you are a racist..

I've certainly not taken Dave's side against you....

But you do seem to have worked yourself up into a such state of resentment.
that your're now having a poke at enemy, mediators, and innocent bystanders alike...????

A bit like the kind of scuffles outside pubs at closing time in the town where I live...

Now to place you & Dave's tiff in a wider context of ugly Mail skewed reportage on the situation in Boston...

"...the invasion of immigrants into every corner of England..."


By PETER HITCHENS FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
PUBLISHED: 00:17, 31 March 2013 | UPDATED: 10:49, 28 June 2013

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 05:46 PM

Any chance of us all moving swiftly on?

Yours sincerely

Innocent bystander

(only because, for some reason, I missed out on the beginning of all this...)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:09 PM

"I now believe that the unreasoning hatred comes almost entirely from the liberal Left. Of course, there are still people who harbour stupid racial prejudices. But most of those concerned about immigration are completely innocent of such feelings.

The screaming, spitting intolerance comes from a pampered elite who are ashamed of their own country, despise patriotism in others and feel none themselves. They long for a horrible borderless Utopia in which love of country has vanished, nannies are cheap and other people's wages are low.

What a pity it is that there seems to be no way of turning these people out of their positions of power and influence. For if there is to be any hope of harmony in these islands, then it can only come through a great effort to bring us all together, once again, in a shared love for this, the most beautiful and blessed plot of earth on the planet."


Peter Hitchins is right on the button.    The ideologically blind are the real "haters".

It must be a sad place they inhabit, when they feel obliged to set themselves against obvious truths.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:34 PM

Yeah - when I read that bit earlier today and considered merits of posting here...
I thought.. hmmm... could be an 'interesting' range of responses..


Now what if the exact same paragraph were published in Socialist worker...????

There were enclaves of extremist socialist theorising that seemed confounding and paradoxical to me 30 odd years ago..

... and it seems there still are...?????



I suppose if I had to have any qualm at all about Polish and other E European migrants,
it might be wondering how many might be neo -n@zis bringing their hatred with them to over here....???? 😕


I'd might even pay to watch gangs of our indigenous nationalist thugs
battling it out with migrant E.Euro fascist skin'eads...

Could turn it into a day event on Brighton Sea front or Minhead Butlins...???? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 06:57 PM

Don't think I've ever read "The Socialist Worker" PFR, but that passage would be true no matter where it was printed....I don't read the Mail either!

I prefer my own brand of Socialism, and it ain't no Utopia, it's mainly about survival and society before self.

Where the immigrants come from is of no importance, my opposition has fuck all to do with creed or colour.....the real hate pedlars here are those who colour every issue with debate stoppers like racism , homophobia, bigotry. The problem is NUMBERS and SPEED of change.
As Hitchins says, it's not evolution, it's revolution.

We live in interesting times and there are some serious issues and problems which require sensible discussion, something we never get from the media.

I have always considered myself a socialist, but have come to realise that to achieve socialism we need strong social values, and many of these values happen to be conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:57 AM

well sadly the link i provided was not from the daily mail, or the socialist worker - or anyone with an axe to grind. it was from the local bbc news.

sadly i was a witness to what seems to be happening in Boston. i made the mistake of telling you on mudcat.

a left wing prig said it was a racist comment.

i don't like being told i have made a racist comment. it not something i would do,

confronted with the fact. he makes up nonsense about me -that i have been briefed by policemen, he tells me that i will become known as a racist unwelcome on the folkscene.

now he tells me to fuck off.

you pays your money - you takes your choice. who is being reasonable?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:42 AM

No Al,

Dave didn't tell you to f**k off he wrote "Why don't you just take a step back and look at yourself. (It would have been easier to say why don't you just fuck off, but I am not so crude.)"

As PFR suggested "But you do seem to have worked yourself up into a such state of resentment. that your're now having a poke at enemy, mediators, and innocent bystanders alike...????"

We do realise you are upset at the suggestion of racism, however you made a statement that was unsubstantiated with evidence that could easily be construed as racist.

That was and remains the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:10 AM

Thanks, Guest, but it is OK anyway. I have had worse things said about me. Al has told me I am a liar, when the facts show I am not. He has said I have made threats against him, when the facts show I have done no such thing. I have been told I belong to a race of criminals. I have been called dishonest, a prig and all sorts of other things that are untrue yet I am told I am the one being unreasonable. As Al says, it is up to others to make their choice. Yet he still brings it up at every opportunity in the forlorn hope that he will seem to be the one hard done to. I have constantly said I do not believe he is a racist but made some unfortunate comments but he will not accept that olive branch. I will give it one more try.

Al, just what is it that you believe? Do you believe, to paraphrase your own statement, that an influx of east Europeans has brought lawlessness to towns like Boston? Do you believe it is any significance that the race of the looters matters?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:12 AM

oh right! everyone has to collate substantiation for what you witness. one has to tell lies and fabricate evidence. or get witnesses.

one's general honesty is not enough to leave one free of a charge of racism.

correction i am not 'upset', i am fucking livid. that i have been told i made a racist remark and utterly pissed off that you lot keep making excuses for this slander.

your compliance with his evil gives him the opportunity to repeat it.

racism is un acceptable. i should be able to tell you in a simple unbiassed way what happened to me one day in Boston - wthout laying myself open to a charge of racism.

he is TOTALLY unapologetic. he won't think twice about doing it again after all the support you lot have lent to him.

he's utterly cynical and feels he can get away with it. support it with lies. you won't bother to point out that he shouldn't lie

oh what the hell!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:22 AM

So, Al? Bearing in mind that I have said I do not believe that you are a racist. That I have not threatened you. That I have not lied to you. What is it that you are so livid about? It is my opinion that you made racist comments. Why are you so livid about the opinion of someone you so obviously care nothing for? And, once again, what is it that you believe?

BTW - Apologies to all for seeming to be dragging this out but I will keep responding as long as Al keeps following me round threads bringing up the subject at every opportunity. There is only one person who can put an end to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:23 AM

I should have also asked, what lies have I told?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 05:54 AM

you said i'd talked to policemen on this thread. that was an untruth.   unlike yourself i haven't got devoted followers who will dig up references.

you've said i make racist comments

i care cos you do it in public and you think it doesn't matter that you do it.

you don't give a shit how hurtful or damaging it could be.

i saw what i saw in Boston. i don't how i knew they were eastern european but they were. they had a way about them. you could tell.

the atmosphere of racial tension in Boston is on public record. it referred to in every episode of police interceptors. but you don't attack channel 5. you attack me. because you think you can get away with it. and your mates back you up.

that is me being honest.

now get on with being dishonest and repeat that i made a racist comment, and shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 06:28 AM

"i saw what i saw in Boston. i don't how i knew they were eastern european but they were. they had a way about them. you could tell"


For goodness sake Al, pack it in. Do you not realise just how puerile the above sentence is. Nobody is saying you didn't witness a crime but for you to state CATEGORICALLY that the perpetrators were Eastern European is beyond my comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 08:10 AM

okay categorically that is what happened. that was my understanding of the situation. my profound and and complete understanding.

you don't give a shit about him saying categorically what i said was racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 08:57 AM

Al,

I think if you look back Dave has said repeatedly he doesn't think you are a racist but that the comment itself could be construed as racist.

He has offered the olive branch on several occasions and you seem to have thrown it back at him.

As I've already stated I know Dave slightly and I've no axe to grind with you but in this instance I could well perceive that Dave was upset.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:49 AM

you said i'd talked to policemen on this thread. that was an untruth.

Al, as you seem totally incapable of reading anything I write I have serious doubts as to whether this will sink in. I can but try. That has already been addressed -

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 11:59 AM

I am happy to apologise for saying you were talking to a policeman. I have already said I could well be mistaken about the policeman comment but if it makes you happier, sorry for saying it. I was obviously conflating two sets of ideas in one. In my defense, it has been proven that both lawlessness and police were mentioned by you in the same post and it was almost 6 moths ago.

Yes, it was not true. I got confused. So what? We all do at times. At least I have the decency to apologise when I have been shown to be incorrect.

unlike yourself i haven't got devoted followers who will dig up references.

I don't have any devoted followers. There just happens to be people on here who recognise the truth.

now get on with being dishonest and repeat that i made a racist comment, and shame on you.

Well, you said

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.

and

Somme Eastern european looters ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. i sad - why don't you call the police? no point Al, he said. nothing to be done there

In my opinion those are racist comments and you made them. There is no shame in saying so. There is shame in perpetuating myths about the integrity of a whole block of people based on their place of birth though. What else can I say?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 09:54 AM

Tell you what though. How about that I categorically state that although I believe it was a racist comment, you did not mean it to come across that way. In future I shall withold saying it was a racist comment and simply say it was a stupid comment. Is that any better? Only trying to help here.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 10:40 AM

is it stupid to tell the truth.

look- put racial tension boston lincolnshire into google. that bbc thing was the first thing that came up for me

you go to boston. talk to the locals, come back and tell me i'm talking stupid.

this what the original conversation was about. that your comment derailed.

i was saying its easy to talk in generalities, but if you live in a hotspot - you will see stuff that doesn't fit in with preconceptions.

its a bit like Keith with his apparent faith in historians who thought that the first world war generals had something approaching competence. the guys on the ground really thought otherwise.


Siegfried Sassoon (bloke who was there)


The General

"Good-morning; good-morning!" the General said
When we met him last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
"He's a cheery old card," grunted Harry to Jack
As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack.

But he did for them both by his plan of attack.

if we cannot make our honest testimony - what is this life worth. i appreciate you're trying - but theres nothing stupid about telling the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

Al - .. if this is any tiny help rather than petrol on flames...

Where I live there is a significantly growing E.European population..

I'm biased - I like it - I have a [probably emotionally romanticised ?] affinity with E. European culture.

I can be walking in town and see new faces and automatically think to myself

"I bet he/she's E.European" it's a silly game I play, hoping to hear them speak to confirm my hunch.

I aint no anthropologist, but in my experience of extensive travels to Czech/Slozakia throughout the 90s
I think I can say without negative prejudice that there are some slightly recognisable Slavic features...

Which I think I still have some remnant of an intuition for noticing...???

Plus - and here is a negative racial stereotype - E.European young women tend to be far better looking than our lot....

Sorry if I'm talking unscientific bollocks... 😕

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:06 PM

Al, I understand your anger, but trying to reason with these people from your perspective is hopeless. The guy is a 25ct troll, he actually enjoys this stuff.

I've had to put up with all kinds of shit just for producing a few facts and asking a few questions that they do not like to hear.

Just stop responding, you are knocking your head against a brick wall, all sensible and reasonable people on this forum know you for what you are a kind and helpful guy and a great musician.

Admin have already passed judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:12 PM

I have no doubt whatsoever about racial tensions, Al. I have seen it at first hand. I have been victim to racial abuse as well, in my childhood. It is not nice I can assure you. And I lived most of my life in racial hotspots. I still work in one. Try googling Salford or Bradford. But that is not what my point is about. I simply believe that what you said can be construed as a racist comment. Other people have agreed. Can you not see it? Maybe not.

Since you mentioned Keith (Sorry to use you as an example Keith but you will understand where I am going.) There are things that Keith and I can never agree on because he says one thing and I understand it a different way and vice-versa. It is akin to speaking a different language. Maybe that is what is happening here. I cannot understand how you can not see that -

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.

and

Somme Eastern european looters ran out of his shop with things they'd nicked. i sad - why don't you call the police? no point Al, he said. nothing to be done there

cannot be seen as racist comments. To me they are. To others they are.

I am as sick of this as you are so I'll tell you what. You tell me what you feel about east Europeans. Tell me whether you think they bring lawlessness where they settle. Then you tell me what you think I can to help mend your wounded pride. I will try my best to oblige.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:18 PM

ake - Al is not responding. I am. Look where the first mention of this was. No idea what you mean by admin has passed judgement unless you are referring to Joe's NON-admin diatribe when I seemed to touch a raw nerve of his the other day. The only time admin have been involved in this is when the thread in question was deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:48 PM

REMEMBER - this thread is about the Tory Party Conference

SEE - how much time and energy is being wasted with the wearying distraction of fighting amongst ourselves...

... and the ultimate WINNER will be....????? 😫

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 12:50 PM

historians -100 years distant

Sasoon - there in the trenches

me - Boston market place

Dave - other side of pennines

world authority on what happened - Dave - in his opinion

first prize - the moral right to talk utter bollocks about racism.

can't help you or your daft mates Dave. you're bonkers.

you're looking at the reason people won't engage with mudcat, and so many people are leaving.

i can only think of Brian Peters as a reputable Brit folkie who uses mudcat. The others just laugh at the mention of mudcat. They don't want to leave themselves open to utterly mindless thick abuse - like I have been subjected to.

there is racism in English folk music. my god there is! you wouldn't know racism if it bit your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:07 PM

.....?????

errmmm... on balance I think I've leaned marginally more towards supporting you than Dave on this 'misunderstanding'.....

So if you are counting me as one of 'Dave's daft mates'
it's my humble honour to hope I am equally daftly one of your as well.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 01:31 PM

i gigged Salford for years - The Drill Hall Vaults, Mulvaney's Bar.

i taught for years in Brum. the rough bits Newtown, lived on the Hamstead rooad Handsworth. my wife taught in aston. the older teachers remberd ian cambell's kids being there.
in erdington - a landlady wouldn't rent us her flat cos we weren't Irish.

Boston is qualitatively different. go there and see it - you'll see what i mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 03:54 PM

Racism?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:24 PM

i can only think of Brian Peters as a reputable Brit folkie who uses mudcat.
well there is also Roy Harris, Dick Miles, John Breeze,Vic Smith, it is true none of us chhose to engage in these paticular battles, but we do use Mudcat for other things

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:41 PM

sorry GSS -no offence intended. but you know what i mean about mudcat's reputation. shotty criticism from people who probably couldn't hold a tune in a paper bag. people simply won't stand for it'

this debate over what is racism pales in comparison to the poor sods who have poured their lives into English folk clubs to have some anonymous herbert tell them, they werent actually performing folk music.

its basically the same clever dick rattiness over semantics. i know what something is - you don't - and i pronounce judgement on you!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 04:45 PM

"this debate over what is racism pales in comparison to the poor sods who have poured their lives into English folk clubs to have some anonymous herbert tell them, they werent actually performing folk music"

This must rate as the most inane, insensitive, thoughtless sentence that has ever been placed on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 15 - 07:06 PM

well i see we have with us yet again a judge of human frailty.

what i was saying is that mudcatters have spent more time rubbishing the honest sincere efforts of English folksingers than they have debating racism.

the weight of evidence is on my side this time

when i need one well versed in inanity thoughtlessness and insensititivity - i will know who to turn to - avery solomon of the inane insensitive and hurtful thoughtless and bloody nastiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 03:54 AM

" I know what something is, you don't"

Excellent point. They THINK they can decipher some offence in what you think....bloody arrogance!   Only you KNOW what you mean, AND have denied any offensive intention.

Should be end of story with full apologies. Then there's the "thought police"   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:03 AM

So you will not tell us what you think or tell me what I can do to help? But you intend to carry on this vendetta? Ah well. At least I tried.

Out of interest, I know Mulvaney's lounge, off Chapel Street somewhere if I remember rightly, but I have never come across the drill hall vaults. Where in Salford is (or was) that?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:28 AM

This morning I had every intention of letting this thread go and then Ake sticks his oar in.

"They THINK they can decipher some offence in what you think....bloody arrogance"

Well Ake, someone THINKS they can decipher where someone comes from just by looking at them. Now if the person being looked at where black they may be from Africa, they may be from Trinidad they may be from Manchester but you are quite happy to defend that are you not. In your book that is not arrogance that is perfectly alright isn't it.

Give your head a shake.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 04:51 AM

were not where

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:00 AM

try and imagine mudcat, if the elder statesmen of the brit folk revival came and sat own by the cyber campfire like the yanks do and just shared their memories and thoughts.

they don't. mention mudcat and they laugh - why put yourself through grief with gang of idiots, they ask.

and the reason is - you keep up this bombardment of specious criticism.

if a person is sexist, racist , plain old and daft - that's their problem. nowt to do with you.

there are one or two folks on mudcat who are too old and certain they were born in a state of political correctness ever to mend their irascible ways - you know who i mean. you guys - just try to raise the tone of the place instead of learning from the worst examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkjfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 09:39 AM

"Excellent point. They THINK they can decipher some offence in what you think....bloody arrogance!   
Only you KNOW what you mean,"

errr.... "no man is an island"...???

If something is said that sounds dodgy, then by reasonable educated deductive judgement
it may indicate the speaker to believe in that something dodgy.
If that dodgy thing is said by the same speaker on more than a few occasions,
that may indicate the speaker holds with dodgy beliefs, ideology, and political persuasion...

The onus is on that speaker to communicate their thoughts more clearly so they are not misunderstood &misconstrued...

So not necessarily 'bloody arrogance' by any means....

Though it could be considered 'bloody arrogance' to accuse a person in public
of being that 'something dodgy' if there is so far insufficient evidence....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 10:53 AM

Or... more succinctly - It is necessarily drummed into school pupils, FE students, & undergrads
that "Well... I know what I meant.."
is simply not good enough for good effective communication of ideas and intent....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 11:14 AM

well of course you wouldn't allow racist talk in your front room under any circumstances. and you'd walk away from it in the pub.

you have to walk past it in the supermarket on the front page of the daily mail.

but when it gets to the point that people are saying i'm ditching a great project like a folk music site because i don't want to be embroiled in endless fucking silly arguments about my suspected sins. this song isn't politically correct. that song isn't REAL folk music.

well then at that point. ithink some people ought to be examining their consciences.

they couldn't have created something great mudcat, and they are fucking it up and dragging it down.

really its pure bloody vandalism and negativity. everyone who actually goes to folk clubs and talks to the artists knows this is the case.

if you don't know the artists, don't go to folk clubs. don't give a shit about mudcat and its aspiration to provide an open forum for folk music people. why are you here.

there are sites where you can kick up shit and cause trouble. they will welcome you. you've outlived your welcome here though.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 11:43 AM

Al, who do you actually mean by 'you' ?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 12:24 PM

if a person is sexist, racist , plain old and daft - that's their problem. nowt to do with you.

That is indeed a very good point, Al. But by the same token that people should be allowed to say sexist, racist, plain old and daft things, others should be allowed to comment on them. There is no such thing as free speech for some but not for others. It is an all or nothing situation. People on Mudcat are allowed to say what they like. Others are allowed to comment in a way the see fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 12:31 PM

Still can't find the Drill Hall Vaults in Salford, BTW. All I can come up with on Google is the actual drill hall. Might you have been mistaken about either the name or place? I am intrigued!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 01:16 PM

Al witnessed the incident, he says they were Eastern Europeans, they are easily recognised by appearance and accent. I have no reason to disbelieve him. End of story.

They could have been Scots, or Irish, or local men, but they were, according to a reliable witness EUs.

What do you not like about the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 01:33 PM

Pray tell, oh font of such majestic knowledge (as I really wish to learn) how can a simple soul like myself can gain such wondrous insight. I too desire to be able to discern someone's origin merely by looking at them. What a superb skill. Sublime in all it's glory. How powerful that must be. Please enlighten me, tell me the secret.


yeh...............


I even want to learn your song................

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 01:40 PM

god i played that place every friday and sunday afternoon for ages. i may have got the name confused - there was a drill hall vaults in Derby - both Irish places.

it was along from the university - there was a railway bridge fairly near to it. the estate mulvaneys was on was about three hundred yards to wards the university and the police station. little pub. lovely old landlady.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 01:58 PM

"What do you not like about the truth?"

I adore the 'truth'.. it's great.. probably ultimately even better than electric guitars and ladies private parts..

Trouble is the truth can be such a difficult phenomena to identify and hold up for all to see, agree, and marvel at... 😜

Regarding that specific instance - Al's experience in £shop Bolton - I agree with you !!!

[which I think.. ok.. hope I've communicated clearly enough in previous posts in this thread...]

Though in general terms, 'some'* regular mudcatters would benefit all if more effort were made at clarity in their writing.

Would save a lot of 'misunderstandings' and frustratingly wearisome divisive protracted arguments...


[* 'some' - including myself.. I know I'm not a very good writer any more.
My written skills of expression have deteriorated substantially since my 'intellectual' peak quarter of a century ago...


That's one of the main reasons why I value mudcat so much - daily stimulation from some exceptional good quality minds.
Even those I am not in agreement with on specific issues]

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 02:44 PM

Al. Just glad it was not me not knowing a pub in Salford :-) We all make mistakes, as I have said before!

PFR - Agreed!

ake - Al has said specifically that he was NOT referring to appearance or accent. He did not know why he thought they were east European but has some reason to believe it. That is the truth. Check it out if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 02:51 AM

Fret not Dave, Ake is going to tell us how we can all acquire this great skill aren't you Ake?

..................Ake?


................. Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 05:55 AM

Ahhh - Quite possibly the Kings Arms on Bloom Street - Pretty close to Salford Central Railway station. Could it be that one? Mulvaneys is nearer to the Uni and the where the Police (and Fire) stations were on the Crescent.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 06:02 AM

...and just remembered. Relevant to this off shoot and the earlier discussions. One of the best music sessions I ever came across was in the Crescent pub. We had been invited to a cultural exchange type event at the old Lowry gallery on the Crescent. It was a pretty staid affair with performers from all over Europe having only the commonality of being recent immigrants to Salford. Polite applause and nothing too exciting going on. We made our excuses after a couple of hours and went across the road to the Crescent - A very quirky place at the best of times. Shortly after various musicians came in and sought permission to play, which they got. It was brilliant. Can't remember were they were all from but I recall a Bosnian fiddle player and a Lithuanian guitarist who had never met before playing a set of tunes that you would have thought they had practiced for years! Mind you, the beer was very good in the Crescent and that may have coloured our opinions as well :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 02:20 PM

i suppose looking back on this whole sorry episode.

what you have to understand is that its not so long ago that Nick Griffins lot made up a lot of fake websites under my name implying that i was a sympathiser with his creed.

presumably this was to pay me back for the anti fascist sentiment of one of my songs. i always suspected someone on mudcat was at the root of that. though i never found out. les worral got the same treatment and never really came back to mudcat. in his case they photoshopped a picture of him shaking hands and sharing a platform with Griffin.

either way its not a charge to be tossed around lightly. its too sensitive.

as we trying to clear the air, let me state unequivocally here and now that i have no truck with racism and right wing extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 02:41 PM

Hi Al,
Thank you for explaining that. Life is far too short.

Having said that I look forward to Ake explaining his comments, but there again I'm an awkward bastard. I will continue to ask HIM to clarify how HE can differentiate between people.

PS. Did you ever get to the Duke of York in Eccles?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 02:55 PM

Al Whittle wrote:-
"what you have to understand is that its not so long ago that Nick Griffins lot made up a lot of fake websites under my name implying that i was a sympathiser with his creed."

This happened to a lot of us, Al, including all those who were active in Folk Against Fascism. I could give you the name of the actual person responsible but if I post it here, it will be deleted, and possibly the thread closed because of a private arrangement between Mudcat and the-party-that-must-not-be-mentioned-on-this-forum. You could ask me by PM if you are interested though it is all water under the bridge now.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 03:56 PM

Happened to me as well, Al. Bearing in mind my background you can imagine how it affected me :-( I agree that life is too short and, funnily enough, was only thinking as I sat down at the computer that there must be a resolution. I think if I was to say that I was being over sensitive it would be best. It is still my opinion that the comments can be construed as racist and I am surprised that you cannot see that but I fully accept that it was not your intention.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 04:05 PM

Might it have been the Kings Arms BTW? Lovely pub now but I did not go there until about 10 years ago or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 04:29 PM

If anyone doubts that the right words make a difference, check this out. Cheesy but beautiful and delivers the message far better than I could :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 01:36 PM

This was 36 years ago. Has anything changed?

Tory Party Conference

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 01:39 PM

So Sorry - Picked up the wrong link. That one was still funny but not the Tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 03:18 PM

I have to say I'm a tad disappointed. I thought Akey Baby was going to enlighten me as to how I can differentiate between nationalities just by looking at them.

Come on Akey wakey, I'm sure I'm not the only person waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 07:45 AM

Baited breathe is at hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 04:08 AM

Ake, I'm still waiting for the "truth" from you about differentiating between people of different nationalities.

Could it be that you were just spouting off with no realistic chance of being able to justify your remarks.

You could of course apologise but I doubt very much you will do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 06:04 AM

Don't be unkind, Raggy. Take a look at this You Tube footage and it is blatantly obvious that they are all east Europeans ;-)They are sooooo different to the gangs of hoodies and thugs that you generally see around Salford precinct. It is the, erm, thingies and, errrrmmm, whatsits that give them away...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 08:28 AM

oh come on, it's dead easy to tell E Europeans in the shops and town centre.....

...they're much healthier looking, fitter, and more attractive than most local indigenous british white people... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 08:34 AM

I anticipate Ake will be on to the mods to get this thread deleted as he obviously doesn't want to add to his ridiculous statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 10:21 AM

much healthier looking, fitter, and more attractive than most local indigenous british white people

Speak for yourself, PFR. As you can tell by my handle I am a veritable Adonis... :-P

Mind you, the Mrs said the other day that if she saw a stomach like mine on a woman she would say she was pregnant. I said it has been and she is.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 03:58 PM

Really interesting discussion on BBC Question Time last night concerning removal of tax credits for working families.

Very complicated issue, more complicated than one would imagine at first glance......like most political issues.

Mr Farage once again illustrated the need to be well informed to make credible points.....wiped the floor with postman Johnston and the Tory talking head.    Amazed at the improved Germaine Greer, who seems to have developed a dose of sanity and ditched her PC "liberal" stance......even praising the Chinese government for saving their people from starvation.....and not a word about "human rights" :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 04:28 PM

Diversion tactic? or just a load of Taurus excreta

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 06:11 PM

Just seen Germaine Greer on Newsnight BBCTV.....my opinion of her has just risen another couple of rungs :0).....What a job she made of that weasel Wark.

Isn't it refreshing when someone...even Germaine, points out in good old Aussie fashion,....    that the fucking emperor/empress, has no fucking clothes.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 07:12 PM

Germaine Greer
Link to newsnight interview

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 15 - 03:32 AM

Good people, please allow me to recap. Akenaton made a bold (some would say stupid) statement that it was possible to tell someone's nationality merely by looking at them.

I personally do not think this is so and questioned this. I was asked by Ake " What do you not like about the truth?"

So I ask again Ake, how can I tell a persons nationality just by looking at them. I do not believe it is possible you are quite adamant it is possible so explain how it is done.

Or explain why you are a charlatan.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 15 - 06:02 AM

"Or explain why you are a charlatan."
Give him a break Raggy - he seems to be having a lot of woman trouble lately - first Hilary C, now Kirsty Wark soon there'll only be Mrs T (and she's dead) and Nige the Nasty Nazi to support his cause.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Oct 15 - 07:38 AM

I don't give a stuff about Kirsty Wark, she is simply another weasel journalist......but what do you think of the new improved Germaine, now THAT'S a woman with "balls".    :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 15 - 08:22 AM

You can prevaricate as much as you Ake.

We now have conclusive proof that whatever you write can be totally ignore in future as it has no substance.

Charlatan indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 15 - 08:36 AM

Time for a beer I think, Raggy ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 15 - 08:43 AM

Not at the moment, time to carve a pumpkin for the children and then the Rugby Union this aft. A Howling Wolf is in order today to go with the witch on a broomstick that I did last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 04:43 AM

Allowing Israel's side of the story to be put is not right wing.
All Western governments, including LW France, support Israel and deny that it is guilty of atrocities.
I have never expressed a RW view.
My views on immigration are those of all three main parties including Labour.

Your assertions that I am RW can not be supported.
That is not me claiming to be part of a majority.
That is me stating that my views are mainstream and not RW.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 05:11 AM

Which silly bugger stopped his medication?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 06:27 AM

There is no shortage of people around to "put Israel's side." Every major political party in the US, Europe, and the UK, all the western media and a host of powerful lobby groups. Don't talk as if there's no-one to speak up for them, please. And one thing in common with all the groups I've mentioned is that they are predominantly right-wing. You're a good fit, Keith. Would you like to dissociate yourself from them all? Do feel free.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 07:53 AM

"Allowing Israel's side of the story to be put is not right wing."
The Israeli Regime is right-wing extremist - some of its own employees (namely it's retired security heads have described it as fascist, one compared it to the Nazis
Supporting their line (particularly as you do) is right wing by any standards.
Your attitude to Ireland, Travellers and immigrants, your extremist attacks on the Muslim culture (whoever you claim put you up to them) and your unquestioning support for the establishment makes you as right as they come.
All this is compounded by your persistent claim that anybody who disagrees with you is "a leftie" - (a virtual confession of your rightness)
The Labour party's line on race is now right wing extremist, by the way.
In teh past, no political party, apart from the openly fascist ones have ever dared make immigration an issue - now they are all at it - all extremist right wing - pretty much as you have described yourself "My views on immigration are those of all three main parties including Labour."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 08:14 AM

Oh Jim, please don't encourage him. It's been quiet for a while until someone forgot his medication.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 08:59 AM

"Oh Jim, please don't encourage him. It's been quiet for a while until someone forgot his medication."
Was becoming a little boring without him - very much missed winding him up
By the way Keith - very few governments (if any) have ever denied that guilty of atrocities and have actually supported their behaviour
What they have done is decided not to do anything about them out of self-interest - pretty much as Britain and the US haven't rocked the boat as far as Saudi (and now Chinese) human rights abuses - self interest and oil rules OK!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 09:57 AM

Sometimes it's concerning when you've not heard from an older mudcatter for quite a few days..

oh well at least he's still breathing..

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 12:14 PM

"In teh past, no political party, apart from the openly fascist ones have ever dared make immigration an issue "


What a fucking joke in every way!

We have NEVER seen immigration on the present scale at any time in history.

Is it correct that people should be afraid to oppose ANY political policy?

Do you believe immigration should be completely unregulated? If not what would be your RED LINE.

You are completely disingenuous twisting every thing that Keith has posted. You are a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 01:02 PM

There is no shortage of people around to "put Israel's side."

There is no shortage of people putting the Palestinian side, but on Mudcat there is a shortage of anyone putting the other side.

Your attitude to Ireland, Travellers and immigrants, your extremist attacks on the Muslim culture

All made up slurs.
Give an example.

The Labour party's line on race is now right wing extremist, by the way.

That shows how out of touch with reality your views are.

By the way Keith - very few governments (if any) have ever denied that guilty of atrocities and have actually supported their behaviour
Give an example of France or any Western government accusing them of atrocities.

(I have been in hospital. This my first chance to reply.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 01:47 PM

there is a painting of a belgian refugee from the first world war in the kelvingrove art gallery in glasgow. he is one of 200,000 belgian refugees who came to britain when that country was invaded by germany.

doubtless we have accepted many refugees during wars in europe and further afield. it's one of the reasons why we (still) have a reputation as a tolerant and inclusive society. why would anyone have a problem with that? surely we should be proud.

those of you who complain so frequently and vehemently against 'uncontrolled immigration' seem to forget that everyone is an individual with a story. be honest -how many 'immigrants' have you actually met and listened to? and of those people how many of them were trying to make life harder for you in any way?

the description of the belgian refugee painting adds that many belgians settled in glasgow. does anyone seriously believe that they -or the italians, pakistanis or irish and others are responsible for the deprivation and wasted lives in that city? (apart from you ake, obviously)

these and other problems in the country are caused by capitalism and particularly the free market global variety. we are pursuing policies coming from the tory party (and the usa, chinese, saudis etc) and their friends. this is the topic at the top of this discussion but some of us have repeatedly been sidetracked into discussing immigration. exactly as our government would like us to.

sorry for repeating myself -and getting sucked into the immigration theme- but, come on people! you surely wouldn't want to be mistaken for a racist - or even worse, a tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 03:01 PM

" those of you who complain so frequently and vehemently against 'uncontrolled immigration' seem to forget that everyone is an individual with a story. be honest -how many 'immigrants' have you actually met and listened to?"

Achmelvich, Too true.

However I think there is another question to ask.

How many of those people who intensively object to immigration can say they are British or even English. I doubt if more than a few percent can claim to be entirely of either group.

As far as I understand my family came here with the Vikings over a thousand years ago. So am I English?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 03:51 PM

"Give an example.
Belligerent Orange marches just "a pleasant family day out" will do for a start
Irish famine refugees depicted as apes - just the humour of the time.
Remind me how much effort you put in to claim that "no Irish Need Apply" notices didn't exist.
Didn't you describe generations of Irish children as "having been brainwashed" - or was that someone else?
"That shows how out of touch with reality your views are."
No it doesn't.
Back in the day, no respectable party would openly use race as an election issue, if immigration surfaced during an election campaign as "playing the race card" - now it is the policy of all parties, as you have just stated.
Enoch Powell was rejected by his party for his attack on immigrants - now they are common utterances
Since those balmy Blair days you couldn't squeeze a credit card between the policies of all the major parties - all different shades of the same extremism and all coalescent - as elections have shown
You failed miserably to show there is a left-wing press - now show us a left--wing political party.
Still no examples of countries supporting Israeli atrocities in any shape or form - both Cameron and Obama condemned last year's bloodbath and they were informed that they could no longer rely on a US veto to lift them out of the klarts - so much for support.
"Give an example of France or any Western government accusing them of atrocities"
I said they'd ignored the atrocities (no question that they have, we watched a lot of them on tele last year - I said they have ignored them - you suggested that they supported them - where has any govenment supported last years bloodbath, the settlemts policy, the Sabra Shatila massacre, the ethnic cleansing of the Bedouins, the use of chemical weapons on civilians, the destruction of hospitals and schools, the creation of an Apartheid State, the attempts to sell weapons to Apartheid South Africa.... where is the support you claim? SILENCE IS NOT SUPPORT – Israel has been accused of extremism and atrocities by virtually all human rights organisations – if they had the support you claim, we would be deafened by protests of Israel's innocence WHERE ARE THESE PROTESTS – WHY IS THE WORLD SILENT ON THESE INJUSTICES?
One sure sign of right wing extremism it a total acceptance of all actions of the state - classic fascism - you have at not time criticised or accepted criticism of this Governments right wing policies - you have never at any time criticised or accepted Briticism of Israel's ethnic cleansing - you have never at any time accepted the criticism of the neural human rights groups which have unanimously condemned Israeli behavour towards the Palestinians - instead, you have uncritically put the arguments of the Israeli regime - if this is not the case - show us where you have.   
You are an extreme right wing extremist Keith   
You have just been given two examples of leading western governments   
"We have NEVER seen immigration on the present scale at any time in history."
And we have never treated immigrants the way they are being treated now - just imagine a pre-war government chasing the Jews back to where they came from - exactly what is happening today)
Your national socialism may not support the immigrants and refugees - my socialism does - socialism in international, not national (something entirely different and with a track record to prove it)   
The West helped create the immigration crisis - they should not be allowed to walk away from that fact.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 09:02 AM

Jim, there are hundreds of Orange marches.
All but one or sometimes two pass off entirely peacefully and are indeed a happy family occasion.
Bigots like you would have them banned and that whole culture crushed.

Irish famine refugees depicted as apes - just the humour of the time.

I have never seen such a thing and do not believe it ever happened.
We did discuss how Victorian Punch cartoons sometimes ridiculed the Irish, as they did royalty, politicians and, especially, the English poor.

Remind me how much effort you put in to claim that "no Irish Need Apply" notices didn't exist.

None.
I know they existed.
You just made that up. A lie Jim.

Still no examples of countries supporting Israeli atrocities in any shape or form

Have you forgotten that I supplied quotes from many Western governments expressing warm friendship with Israel, not contempt for war criminals.
When will you provide an example of a Western government accusing them of war crimes?

The Labour party's line on race is now right wing extremist, by the way.

If you believe that Jim, then you show that your judgement is worthless.
If Labour is extreme right wing then the whole world is.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 09:12 AM

"Irish famine refugees depicted as apes - just the humour of the time"

"I have never seen such a thing and do not believe it ever happened"

Here you go Professor, tell us again how you don't believe it ever happened.

Just for the Professor

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 09:18 AM

Or try this one.

Deny this one

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 12:43 PM

Rag, the Irish were lampooned in Victorian Punch cartoons, as were the aristocracy, royalty, politicians and, especially, the English proletariat.

Can you find any examples of "Irish famine refugees depicted as apes?"
I do not believe that there ever were any.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 01:00 PM

Here we go again,
Happy as can be...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 01:36 PM

"Every major political party in the US, Europe, and the UK, all the western media and a host of powerful lobby groups. Don't talk as if there's no-one to speak up for them, please. And one thing in common with all the groups I've mentioned is that they are predominantly right-wing."

So Steve every major political party in the US, in Europe and in the UK is predominantly right wing??? - News to me and quite few European nations with left wing governments.

Ehmmm Christmas looking after a nations self-interest IS precisely what the job of any government is.

Raggy had a look through both those "links" for the Professor - pity that you didn't - the worst examples shown were all American. The strong antipathy towards Irish immigrants in the USA is the reason that "St Patrick's Day" as we know it today came into being.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 01:43 PM

" GUEST,Raggytash - 26 Oct 15 - 01:10 PM"

Ah, the razor sharp wit, the insightful remarks and witty observations, the cut and thrust of intelligent conversation and debate - your amazing lack of skill in any of those qualities is beautifully captured in that single post of yours Raggy - By the way it is you who should go and do some reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 01:47 PM

Hello Teribus, have you learnt to read a compass yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 01:47 PM

My prediction - not long before this one gets shut down - well done boys you've made this site such a wonderful place to visit - NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 01:53 PM

It is "learned" Raggy and apparently I read one a damned sight better than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 01:57 PM

In your dreams

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 02:06 PM

Tell me again how Cork is on the East Coast of Ireland I liked that one. Kept me amused for hours!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 02:19 PM

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/learnt-vs-learned

Once again Teriblunder do try to get your facts correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 02:45 PM

Funny that Teri disappears for ages and then only reappears the day after KA returns.

Just saying like...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 02:57 PM

Can you find any examples of "Irish famine refugees depicted as apes?"
Rag?
Jim?
I do not believe that there ever were any.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 03:55 PM

From Raggy's first link, under one of the cartoons -

Cartoons for magazines such as Harper's Weekly featured cartoons by Thomas Nast and depicted Irish immigrants as ape-like barbarians prone to lawlessness, laziness and drunkenness. "St. Patrick's Day, 1867...Rum, Blood, The Day We Celebrate" shows a riot with policemen and ape-like Irishmen.

Some more information here. It is not really difficult to find anything if you are prepared to look.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 10:34 PM

Keith.

I am not going to take part in your silly little games, picking individual words to try to create a invidious scenario where you can be the "winner"

I'm really not interested in attempting to have a discussion at such a puerile level when life is so short and there are so many wonderful things to discover.

I would suggest, albeit in a vain hope, that you might try to read a book about the subject. I would recommend you attempt to read Tin Pat Coogans "The Famine Plot". I read it a few weeks ago and it is fascinating and horrific at the same time.

You could also try Kathleen Villiers Tuthill book "Patient Endurance" which looks specifically at the famine on the Connemara, again a fascinating book.

........ If you be bothered to read one.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 05:18 AM

Dave, most of those were US cartoons, and I know about the issue of cartoons because I have discussed it here before.

Rag and Dave, Jim said I described "Irish famine refugees depicted as apes" as "just the humour of the time."

I questioned that famine victims have ever been depicted as such.
I still do not believe that they have.
Do you?
Why?

Jim also believes that "The Labour party's line on race is now right wing extremist,"

Do you defend that as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 05:58 AM

So, here we go again with the excuses. Cartoons depicting Irish immigrants in the USA in 1867 are nothing to do with famine refugees I suppose? Like Raggy said, silly little game. I am not partaking either if you don't mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 08:29 AM

Dave, Jim lied.
He quoted me as justifying anti Irish cartoons as "just the humour of the times.
That is a lie. I did not, and never said any such thing.
The discussion is in this thread, starting about 13th July 2013.
thread.cfm?threadid=151520

He just said the cartoons depicted famine refugees as ape like.
Such cartoons were never even discussed, so how can they be evidence of me being right wing?
Even if they exist, which has yet to be shown!

To make a case against me Jim has to lie.
None of you have yet produced a single right wing view from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 08:31 AM

Sorry.
Starting 16 Jul 13 - 06:02 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 08:50 AM

So we have now moved from I do not believe that there ever were any (cartoons depicting Irish immigrants as apes) to I never said any such thing (it was the humour of the times)

Why does that not surprise me? It's like wrestling a bucket of eels.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 09:52 AM

Jim accused me of saying something I never said, about something we never discussed.

That is what you are defending Dave.

I do not believe there are any cartoons depicting famine refugees as apes, but if there are I have never expressed an opinion about them.

I never said any cartoons were "just the humour of the time."
Jim has made the whole thing up.

He also made up the lie,
"Remind me how much effort you put in to claim that "no Irish Need Apply" notices didn't exist."

I never made that claim. I know they were all too real.

What exactly have I said that you object to Dave??

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 09:53 AM

I once had a bucket of eels... [Kilve beach - mid 1960s]

Bugger . does that make me right wing !!!???

how can they be evidence of me being right wing?
Even if they did exist.
None of you have yet produced a single right wing view from me....😜

slightly sexist... hmmm... ok...

slightly agist... hmm.. alright fair cop

slightly racist.. no no no no no never, how dare you...
my wife is a fanny foreigner mail order bride ..

just like the wives of many a prominent right wing jingoist,
except mine's one of the cheaper ones from across the Severn Bridge..
I could't afford one of the better types from Europe or the far east....

But that is not proof that I am right wing,
that you can make a case of or which will hold up in etc etc etc etc ...





sod it.. see how bored I am right now waiting for a courier to deliver new bargain guitar gear...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 09:58 AM

Pfr, I have never posted a right wing view, because I have none.

That is why all of you can only make the assertion, but can never produce anything in support (except more unsupported assertions.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 10:09 AM

My mother had an appt with a memory clinic specialist Dr yesterday.

The diagnosis was Mixed Dementia, which explains the part of the brain which no longer functions correctly,
leading to constant frustrating obsessive circular repetition.

But the good news is there are tablets which can be taken on a 3 month protocol trail,
which can in 50% of cases arrest the decline to a healthy extent...

The Dr also suggested I'd be wise to ask to see a consultant about my memory failings,
as Dementia is now significantly on the increase amongst younger middle aged population.

Do I need to repeat this... 😐

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 10:12 AM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 05:18 AM

Dave, most of those were US cartoons, and I know about the issue of cartoons because I have discussed it here before.


From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 09:52 AM

Jim accused me of saying something I never said, about something we never discussed.

That is what you are defending Dave.

So, were these cartoons discussed or not? Or were they only not discussed between 05:18 and 09:52? What is it I am defending, and how? There is no evidence of me defending anything or having sex with a bucket of eels, Stop these lies at once, Sirrah!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 10:33 AM

That is a lie. I did not, and never said any such thing.
Yes you did Keith - you excused the cartoions in this way, to be exact
"Punch caricatured everyone like that.
In the same edition your quote came from, a few pages further on an Englishman in a top hat is a gorilla.
Of your list, only one was from Punch and not America.
The Punch one was suggesting Britain was creating Frankenstein's monster in Ireland.
Political not racist."
And
"Views held then were undoubtedly racist.
People believed in racial superiority in those days.
Not just in Britain but everywhere.
But, there was no hatred of the Irish in Britain.
At that time, the most celebrated national hero, Wellington, was Irish as were the best writers."
Excusing the British hatred of Irish people - whichever way you phrase it.
"I do not believe there are any cartoons depicting famine refugees as apes, but if there are I have never expressed an opinion about them."
You lie - you were given themse
IRISHMAN AS APE - PIG
And still supporting Orange marches
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 12:15 PM

So, were these cartoons discussed or not?

Look at the discussion Dave. (Use my link)
It was never once suggested that any cartoon depicted famine refugees as apes.

I never once dismissed any of the cartoons as just the humour of the time. As Jim has just said, I acknowledged that there was racism.

I said nothing that could remotely be construed as right wing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 12:30 PM

"I said nothing that could remotely be construed as right wing."
You described cartoons depicting the Irish apes and pigs as "not being racist" - not to a extreme right-winger such as yourself maybe.... par for the course in fact.
The Punch one was suggesting Britain was creating Frankenstein's monster in Ireland.
Political not racist.
You also claimed you didn't give an opinion and called me a liar for pointing it out.
On a thread which you have already been given, you described Irish children as having been brainwashed to hate the English - how many of your stereotypes do you want?
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 12:33 PM

I've just looked up Hertford on a political map, just for proof that it actually exists...

Not exactly situated amongst the most politically and culturally progressive constituencies of the UK.. innit...!!!???

Then again.. I live surrounded by a vast arid expanse of of blue
and I'm not completely right wing yet...

I'd better start taking the tablets.. just in case... 😨

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 12:39 PM

What the fuck is a "culturally progressive constituency"?

Sounds like something out of an Orwellian nightmare? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 01:13 PM

Do you understand the word cultural ? Do you understand the word progressive ?

Work it out, it's really not that difficult.


Well not for anyone with a modicum of intelligence. It's no wonder you struggle with maps.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 01:16 PM

I don't need to wade through reams of your boring twaddle to know that you did discuss the cartoons, Keith. You already told us you had. You then denied you had discussed them. Jim accused me of saying something I never said, about something we never discussed. What does that tell us of your integrity. Not that we needed any more proof of your tortuous manipulation of the facts.

I see Nod has turned up to complete the trio...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 01:19 PM

"What the fuck is a "culturally progressive constituency"?"

errrmmm... poetic license... fun with sounds and words... 😜


.. and probably something with real meaning in the real world for some folks..

or is it all just imaginary...

is Keith an odd exasperating hallucination conjured up by my tortured brain......????

tablets pleases....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 01:53 PM

As it happens Raggytash, I do not understand either "cultural" or "progressive" in the context of a constituency.

Surely a constituency consists of all shades of opinion, including socialist and conservative?
I think perhaps PFR made a joke which went slightly astray.

BTW.....What's the point of all the insulting posts to me, I treat you with respect on this forum... Is it just that you enjoy throwing you weight about? If so, it is rather cowardly, I am not stupid, do not need to continually look up the meaning of words, and have no bother with maps.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 01:54 PM

Dave, we discussed Punch cartoons.
We did not discuss any cartoons that depict famine refugees as apes.
Jim made that up.

You described cartoons depicting the Irish apes and pigs as "not being racist"

I did not.
I said they were racist.
I think they were all American.

The Punch cartoon depicted Ireland as Frankenstein's monster.
Shelley's novel was very popular at the time.
The message was that Britain was creating a monster that would turn on its creator.
Not racist. Political.

My comment about how Irish history had been taught in Irish schools came from a history journal.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 01:58 PM

Christine Kineally.
"Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains. This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. In the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths. Thus, at the launch of the influential Irish Historical Studies journal in 1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 02:06 PM

Dave,
"Cartoons for magazines such as Harper's Weekly featured cartoons by Thomas Nast and depicted Irish immigrants as ape-like barbarians prone to lawlessness, laziness and drunkenness. "St. Patrick's Day, 1867...Rum, Blood, The Day We Celebrate" shows a riot with policemen and ape-like Irishmen."

Harper's Weekly was an American magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 02:13 PM

Ake - I had a whole bunch of words - synonyms - jumbling about in my head...
and i quickly picked 'constituencies', as it's near enough in meaning and I liked the sound of it,
to get the thoughts typed and posted and out the way with,
so i could get back and finish watching a documentary on Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid,
before the wife gets home...

Priorities...



I think on my acoustic guitar, I should boldly print the slogan...

"This machine pisses about with pedants".... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 02:34 PM

"My comment about how Irish history had been taught in Irish schools came from a history journal."
No it did not - children being brainwashed was purely your invention.
In fact, the articles pointed out that the revisionist view of history (avoiding appointing blame to anybody) was the one that had been taught and that Kinealy's and others' views were now challenging that revisionist view
"We did not discuss any cartoons that depict famine refugees as apes."
Yes we did and you were given examples of those cartoons which you described as non-racist - sort of like claiming depictions of black men with big willies were not racist.
You have had your own statements - suggest people pull up 'The Irish Potato Blight - Cause found" thread for more of your nuggets of wisdom!!
The depiction of the Irish as a subhuman species was common WHAT ELSE WAS IT IF IT WAS NOT RACIST?
Why do you do this Keith - self-harm maybe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 02:41 PM

Some examples of racism towards Ireland by Britain
Jim Carroll

Famine Unit II: Racism
Nebraska Department of Education

Massacres, the slave trade, and the theft of vast tracts of other people's land, have all been justified by claims of religious, cultural and racial superiority. Such myths often hide the harsh reality of exploitation and colonization.

Anti-Irish prejudice is a very old theme in English culture. The written record begins with Gerald of Wales, whose family was deeply involved in the Norman invasion of Ireland.


Anti-Irish racism
Wikipedia

Negative English attitudes to Irish culture and habits date as far back as the reign of Henry II and the Norman conquest of Ireland. In 1155 the Papacy issued the papal bull Laudabiliter which granted Henry II's request to subdue Ireland and the Irish Church.


Racism and Prejudice
Moving here

The Anthropological Review and Journal of 1866 claimed that "Gaelic man" was characterised by "his bulging jaw and lower part of the face, retreating chin and forehead, large mouth and thick lips, great distance between nose and mouth, upturned nose, prominent cheekbones, sunken eyes, projecting eyebrows, narrow elongated skull and protruding ears". This sort of "scientific" racism was not uncommon in the nineteenth century and was also directed against Jewish and African people. "Without intending offence", stated an article on the London Irish in Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine of July 1901, "we would point to this common feature in the Hibernian and Negro idiosyncrasy, that a dull manhood follows upon a youth of the highest promise". This "no offence, but -" introductory remark always heralds a statement that will be offensive and is one commonly experienced by migrant groups.

Similar attitudes often lie behind anti-Irish jokes which stereotype Irish people as stupid or ridicule their accents, as in the Preston Lock-out [en dash, not em] cartoons. A survey carried out as part of Discrimination and the Irish Community in Britain by Mary Hickman and Bronwen Walter found that 70% of those surveyed found such jokes offensive and only 30% accepted them as "harmless fun". Only in 1994-95 did the Commission for Racial Equality commission this study, a move ridiculed by the Sun newspaper as "a load of codswallop". It greeted the news with a page of Irish jokes "to give the researchers a flying start".



'Nothing but the Same Old Story'
(Book review)
Amazon: UK and US

[This book] was published with support by the Greater London Council as an educational effort in the early 1980's after more than a decade of virulent anti-Irish feeling in England. [It] looks at the form of that expression and at its historical roots. Those roots span seven hundred years. Particular instances of almost genocidal behavior in different centuries are looked at not just in terms of what was done but how it was justified. Not many people realize the signifance of the expression 'the Irish race'. The Irish were, and are to some extent, considered biologically distinct from the English 'race'.


Anti-Irish quotes throughout history
Politics.ie

They live on beasts only, and live like beasts. They have not progressed at all from the habits of pastoral living. ..This is a filthy people, wallowing in vice. Of all peoples it is the least instructed in the rudiments of the faith. They do not yet pay tithes or first fruits or contract marriages. They do not avoid incest.
- Giraldus Cambrensis/Gerald of Wales, The History and Topography of Ireland, 12th Century

How godly a deed it is to overthrow so wicked a race the world may judge: for my part I think there cannot be a greater sacrifice to God.
- Edward Barkley, describing how the forces of the Earl of Essex slaughtered the entire population of Rathlin Island, Co. Antrim, 1575

I have often said, and written, it is Famine which must consume [the Irish]; our swords and other endeavours work not that speedy effect which is expected for their overthrow.
- English Viceroy Arthur Chichester writing to Elizabeth I's chief advisor, Nov. 1601

The time hath been, when they lived like Barbarians, in woods, in bogs, and in desolate places, without politic law, or civil government, neither embracing religion, law or mutual love. That which is hateful to all the world besides is only beloved and embraced by the Irish, I mean civil wars and domestic dissensions .... the Cannibals, devourers of men's flesh, do learn to be fierce amongst themselves, but the Irish, without all respect, are even more cruel to their neighbours.
- Barnaby Rich, A New Description of Ireland, 1610

All wisdom advises us to keep this [Irish] kingdom as much subordinate and dependent on England as possible; and, holding them from manufacture of wool (which unless otherwise directed, I shall by all means discourage), and then enforcing them to fetch their cloth from England, how can they depart from us without nakedness and beggary?
- Lord Stafford, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in a letter to King Charles I, 1634

So ended the fairest promise that Ireland had ever known of becoming a prosperous and a happy country.
- Sir William Temple, about 1673, (the export of wool from Ireland to England was forbidden in 1660)

Ireland is like a half-starved rat that crosses the path of an elephant. What must the elephant do? Squelch it - by heavens - squelch it.
- Thomas Carlyle, British essayist, 1840s

...being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure had been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Providence in a manner as unexpected and as unthought of as it is likely to be effectual.

The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.
-Charles Trevelyan, head of administration for famine relief, 1840s

[existing policies] will not kill more than one million Irish in 1848 and that will scarcely be enough to do much good.
- Queen Victoria's economist, Nassau Senior

A Celt will soon be as rare on the banks of the Shannon as the red man on the banks of Manhattan.
- The Times, editorial, 1848

I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country...to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black one would not see it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours.
- Cambridge historian Charles Kingsley, letter to his wife from Ireland, 1860

A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862

This would be a grand land if only every Irishman would kill a Negro, and be hanged for it. I find this sentiment generally approved - sometimes with the qualification that they want Irish and Negroes for servants, not being able to get any other.
- British historian Edward Freeman, writing on his return from America, about 1881

...Furious fanaticism; a love of war and disorder; a hatred for order and patient industry; no accumulative habits; restless; treacherous and uncertain: look to Ireland...
As a Saxon, I abhor all dynasties, monarchies and bayonet governments, but this latter seems to be the only one suitable for the Celtic man.
-Robert Knox, anatomist, describing his views on the "Celtic character", 1850

The Celts are not among the progressive, initiative races, but among those which supply the materials rather than the impulse of history...The Persians, the Greeks, the Romans and the Teutons are the only makers of history, the only authors of advancement. ...Subjection to a people of a higher capacity for government is of itself no misfortune; and it is to most countries the condition of their political advancement.
- British historian Lord Acton, 1862

You would not confide free representative institutions to the Hottentots [savages], for instance.
- Lord Salisbury, who opposed Home Rule for Ireland, 1886

...more like squalid apes than human beings. ...unstable as water. ...only efficient military despotism [can succeed in Ireland] ...the wild Irish understand only force.
- James Anthony Froude, Professor of history, Oxford

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 02:43 PM

Not my words, Keith. It was a cut and paste from one of Raggy's links. Why do you paste it as if it was something I said I wonder? And, yes, I do know that Harper's is American. It does nothing to remove the fact that you categorically said Jim accused me of saying something I never said, about something we never discussed. The meaning is clear. You say you never discussed this subject when you obviously have. You are, to be kind, a manipulator of the truth. If you make a mistake you will do anything to deny it and you will twist other peoples words in an endeavor to 'win'.   

The next one is -

Dave, we discussed Punch cartoons.
We did not discuss any cartoons that depict famine refugees as apes.
Jim made that up.

You described cartoons depicting the Irish apes and pigs as "not being racist" ...

A comment, addressed directly to me, confirming that you HAD discussed cartoons and then claiming I said something that someone else had. How far do you think you can take your deceit when it is so blatant? Fortunately not everyone is taken in.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 03:10 PM

Some folks [i'm looking mainly in Keith's direction] regard themselves so seriously
they inevitably end up looking rather foolish... 😜


me.. I don't care if I act or look like a bit of a pillock at times..
life's too short and treacherous to be constantly too bothered what the old miseries think...

The wife is now home from visiting her family
and it's pizza and tripe telly until saucy bedtime...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 03:45 PM

Hey, you have given me an idea there PFR. Tripe Pizza! Not sure if it could be served with bedtime sauce though...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 05:10 PM

http://bit.ly/1GHFZXr

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 06:25 PM

PFR....I wasn't concerned with what you wrote and my remarks were tongue in cheek....apologies if I got up your nose.

What annoyed me was Raggytash's insulting response to MY post.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 04:18 AM

'culturally regressive constituency' -tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 05:03 AM

Dave, the discussion was about British publications.
All I said about those American ones is that they were racist.
Nothing right wing from me, and I never said it was just the humour of the time.

Jim accused me of saying something I never said, about something we never discussed.

Jim,
No it did not - children being brainwashed was purely your invention.
Kinealy said that Irish children were taught "simplistic" version of famine history "replete with heroes and villains."
She said that in the 30s historians tried to get a more honest version taught, but it never got through to the schools.
So, generations of kids were taught a version known to be false.

That is a description of brainwashing, and it comes from Kinealy not me.
Is she right wing Jim?

you were given examples of those cartoons which you described as non-racist
Not true. I only said the Frankenstein one was not.
I said the others WERE racist. You quoted me yesterday!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 05:29 AM

"Jim accused me of saying something I never said, about something we never discussed."
We did and I've just supplied the conversation
"That is a description of brainwashing, and it comes from Kinealy not me."
No iyt wasn't - Kineally makes the point that revisionist historians never blamed anybody - she does, despite the fact that you inadvertently attempted to use her to back your anti-Irish case.
If she had said it, it would have been an anti-Irish slur, which you appear to be now repeating - confirming your attitude to the Irish.
Irish children were never taught to hate the British - in fact, if there is any hatred of the British in Ireland, it emanates from the six counties that remain under British rule - that is where 'the Troubles' were and are.
There has never been a manifestation of hatred from the Independent counties.
Get a grip Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 05:35 AM

"Jim,
No it did not - children being brainwashed was purely your invention.

"Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP LYING,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 05:37 AM

I have completely lost track of what Keith is trying to prove or disprove. Did he discuss cartoons? Yes he did. Did he then deny he discussed catoons? Yes he did. What else did he do? Not a clue. I have pointed out that he said he did discuss cartoons and then denied it. I am not interested in the sidetracks just the one verifiable fact. My job is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 08:24 AM

Dave, I asked why I am called right wing when I never express right wing views.

Jim has tried desperately to find some, and failed.

If people just respond to what I say, instead of personal attacks about my imagined political stance, we would not be here.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 08:40 AM

I have pointed out that he said he did discuss cartoons and then denied it. I am not interested in the sidetracks just the one verifiable fact. My job is done.

(Now held in OneNote for easy C&P)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 09:07 AM

"Jim has tried desperately to find some, and failed."
Your views on Ireland - especially on education are right-wing, verging on racism.
Your views on 'all male Pakistanis" are racist in the extreme.
Your views on immigrants on Travellers is extreme right wing.
Your insistence that only politicians are right and Human Rights organisations are not worth considering is right wing in the extreme
All this is a matter of record.
One of the problems of posting on sites like this is that what you write never goes away.
You have yet to respond to the fact that you have lied - again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 03:37 PM

Dave, cartoons "depicting famine refugees as apes" have never before been mentioned on this forum.
You chose not to use the link to the original discussion.

I never discussed them, and I never said they were just the humour of the time.
Jim made that up, as he did that I denied the "no Irish" signs, which I also have never discussed.
Jim tells lies about me.

Jim,
It was from Kineally that I learned that Irish children were taught to blame Britain for the famine.
Believing her does not make me right wing.

Your views on immigrants on Travellers is extreme right wing.
Lie.
I have never expressed an anti immigrant or anti traveller view.
Why don't you produce one, liar?

Likewise anti any other demographic.
Liar!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 04:21 PM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 26 Oct 15 - 02:57 PM

Can you find any examples of "Irish famine refugees depicted as apes?"
Rag?
Jim?
I do not believe that there ever were any.
...
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 03:37 PM

Dave, cartoons "depicting famine refugees as apes" have never before been mentioned on this forum.

Must be terrible not being able to remember 2 days ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 04:37 PM

"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
Not Kineally - you - you put it up as your belief
I thought you'd learned your lesson over blaming somebody else for your statement excactly was -
"Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive."
Your statement - your belief and an extremely racist one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 04:56 PM

When Keith disappeared for a few days, were we concerned for his well being...???

did we miss him...???


I can truthfully answer "Slightly, but no news is better than bad news.." to one of those questions.... 😇

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 05:14 AM

Must be terrible not being able to remember 2 days ago...

When he made the accusation, such cartoons had never been mentioned before.
I never said what he accused me of saying about them, or about "no Irish" signs.
He lies about me and you defend it.

Liar Jim,
Not Kineally - you - you put it up as your belief

No.
I had already quoted Kineally who said that generations of Irish kids had been taught to blame Britain for the famine while Irish historians objected to it as false propaganda.

I learned that from her.

Pfr, be happy.
I will be spending more time in hospital and less on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 05:55 AM

Keith - take care, look after yourself, best wishes for your health & recovery.

Remember, I don't actually dislike you,
I'm just cheesed off with your unreasonable negative derailing behaviour on threads I enjoy...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 06:33 AM

Thanks pfr.
Not fishing for sympathy.
Do you really want a forum where you never see views that challenge your own?

I really enjoy debate.
I love it when my views are challenged.
I hate it when people call me things instead of challenging what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 06:50 AM

"I hate it when people call me things instead of challenging what I actually say."
Everybody challenges what you have to say - you either ignore it, deny you have said it or blame somebody else.
You have blamed Kinealy here, in the past you have blamed historians you have not read and admit, you are notr interested enough in the subject ever to read them, or have invented "experts" and attributed (certainly one of your most outrageously right wing and racist) statements to them - form this into a well know phrase or sentence "Muslims male All implanted culturally are".
You ignore what people say, you lie about statements you have made (at least three times recently) and you set out to "win" something.
I have no idea at all why you take part in these discussions - you certainly aren't interested in the views of others.
Stop now Keith while you are only this far behind.
Simple test - If Kinealy said Irish kids have been brainwashed to hate Britain - produce her statement - failure to do so will prove you are lying.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 06:54 AM

Christine Kineally,

To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994).

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 07:21 AM

That covered the period from 1922 to 1935 -80 years ago and it refers to British politicians and not "the British" and she went on to describe how education changed, removing the blame element, up to her final conclusion on revisionism which totally remove all discussion on blame.
This is exactly what I am talking about - how you take odd phrases totally out of context to claim children in Ireland have been brainwashed to hate Britain - your claim, not hers, not anybody elses - yours alone.
You really are a piece of work - and not very bright with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 10:00 AM

The piece the Professor can be found at:Christine Kinealy Article


It goes on to say:

"This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. In the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths"

Not that he's actually read the book just another selective cut and paste eh Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 10:45 AM

I'm sorry about you health issues and really do wish you well, Keith, but if you will make every thread about yourself then that does become the issue. That is the perception that I and many others have. It does not matter whether you believe it or not or whether you try to 'prove' that is not the case. None of us expect you, or anyone else for that matter, to change but if you would at least believe how you come across to people without disputing the silliest of points to the nth degree then there would be far fewer arguments. And about 75% fewer posts in the BS section.

Good luck anyway,

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 12:50 PM

Jim,
That covered the period from 1922 to 1935 -80 years ago

Wrong.
"To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border."

Rag,
It is you who are being selective.
I already quoted your quote.
The historians tried to get the curriculum changed, but,
"To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 12:54 PM

Dave,
but if you will make every thread about yourself then that does become the issue.

It is not me.
It is those people who try to prove me to be right wing instead of just responding to what I actually say.
That makes the discussion about me and not the issue.
I hate it and complain every time people do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 01:55 PM

I hate it and complain every time people do it.

Exactly, Keith. These are people you do not care about. You and those close to you know you the best. Ignore the others. It is simple enough to just say 'that is not true' instead of going into reams and reams of why you feel it is not true. Why do the opinions of people you do not even care about matter so much? At times it comes across as protesting too much.

If neither foes not loving friend can hurt you...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 02:19 PM

"still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. "
Nothing to do with what has happened in the last 80 years
IRISH SCHOOLS HAVE NEVER TAUGHT CHILDREN TO HATE BRITISH PEOPLE - CERTAINLY NOT IN MY LIFETIME NOR IN THE LIFETIME OF ANY OF MY FAMILY AND IT IS BASIC RACIST STEREOTYPING TO SUGGEST THIS IS THE CASE - CONFIRMING YOUR POLITICAL POSITION
The Nationalist paradigm, referred to is to concentrate on the events of The Famine - not on the causes, nor on apportioning the blame - this is Kinealy's point - I've recently read her book, which you, in your self- confessed disinterest in the subject, will never do.
We've been through this Keith - at least a dozen of my relatives received an Irish education - none of them were "brainwashed to hate Britain" and to suggest it in on par with your suggestion that "all Male Pakistanis have been culturally implanted" which makes them prone to raping underage girls.
All a confirmation that you are an extreme right-wing fanatic.
Do you wonder why people recognise you as an extreme right-winger, when you make such outrageous attacks on entire national groups - in this case, including Irish children?
Back to the medication, if I were you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

Keith,

Your 'cause' would also be helped if you didn't pen sheer garbage like this:

'Jim, there are hundreds of Orange marches. All but one or sometimes two pass off entirely peacefully and are indeed a happy family occasion.
Bigots like you would have them banned and that whole culture crushed.'

Anyone living in Belfast or Derry or flashpoints elsewhere in the Six Counties would regard your belief that 'All but one or sometimes two' Orange parades 'pass off entirely peacefully' as utter bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 02:56 PM

Modette, how many of the hundreds of parades have been marred by violence in recent years?
Some years two, most years one, this year none.
From an old post of mine,
Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM
Jim,
"because giant, provocative marches are allowed to take place throughout the North Eastern counties of Ireland at this time of year,"

Gerry Kelly, Sinn Fein MLA for N Belfast said, "There are only a handful of Orange Order parades which are contentious. It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality and entered into dialogue with local residents to resolve these issues."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10608851.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 02:59 PM

Dave, I post about issues.
When people fail to reply to what I actually post, making accusations about me instead, it makes the discussion about me.

Why not criticise them for making the accusations, instead of me for defending myself?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:03 PM

Blimey Keith, do you retain a team of researchers just to cross reference your immense archive of all your posts !!???

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:04 PM

Jim, Kinealy says that generations of children have been taught that Britain starved the Irish people or allowed them to starve.
Like a totalitarian state, they did not allow historians to set the curriculum because that was not required political message.

That would make some hate Britain, and a few to seek revenge.
Hatred was sowed into the minds of children and we are reaping the bloody harvest to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:21 PM

Modette, Irish Times this year,

A contentious Orange Order feeder parade past the Ardoyne shops in north Belfast took place peacefully this morning.
There was a heavy police presence as two loyalist bands led Orangemen and some of their supporters past two nationalist protests at the shops this morning.
Some nationalists blew whistles and there was some taunting between nationalists and loyalists at the flashpoint but otherwise the parade which took a few minutes to process beyond the shops concluded peacefully.

The Orangemen were marching to the main parade which has started in Belfast. It features some 10,000 Orangemen and women, about 70 bands, with many thousands more spectating along the roadside.
In all there are 18 Orange Order parades and one Independent Orange Order parades taking place across Northern Ireland today. The vast majority of parades take place without incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:29 PM

When people fail to reply to what I actually post, making accusations about me instead, it makes the discussion about me.

Only if you let it, Keith. It takes two to tango and, if I may use another platitude, it doesn't matter who started it; it is whoever stopped it that counts.

Why not criticise them for making the accusations, instead of me for defending myself?

I am not criticising anyone for making accusations or defending themselves. I am criticising your style of argument. I find it very irritating. Whether you take any notice of that opinion or not is entirely up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 04:03 PM

Kinealy says nothing of the sort.
Kinealy argued at firs (certainly at the time of your cut-n-paste that the famine was caused by neglect and adopting predatory business practices - that is the situation with all historians - revisionist and otherwise - that the outcome of The Famine was due to the Laissez Faire‎ policy adopted by Britain - no historian disputes that - even British historians - it is what Blair apologised for on his visit to Ireland - even revisionist, Mrs Woodham Smith, criticised Britain;'s "full warehouses, selling famine relief" behabvior.
Her book criticises the the Nationalist Government for not examining the causes of the Famine in depth and only dealing with the Laissez Faire‎ policy, even though she admits that they did so in order to maintain good relations with Britain so the many thousands of emigrants could easily settle in Britain during the bad years - 'The Emergency' as it is known here.
She has shifted her position in that she now supports Coogan's view, based on his new evidence, that The Famine was deliberately used to solve 'The Irish Problem.
You cannot hope to understand from out-of context cut-'n-pastes red the ***** book!
You suggest the Irish children were brainwashed - they weren't and there is no evidence of them having been.
Hastred of the British is centred in the North and is down to nearly a century of partitioning, anti-Catholic prejudice since the six counties were set up, the brutal way the Civil Rights Marches were put down in the 1960s, Bloody Sunday - and now a new kid on the block, the Ballymurphy Massacre carried out by the Paras prior to Bloody Sunday, where 11 civilians were shot down known as Belfast Bloody Sunday) now being investigated.
None of this has SFA to do with the famine and it never has.
You have been given the facts of Kinealy's book, you have been given the experiences of my family in the Irish education system - yet you continue to present the Irish people as a hate-filled, brainwashed people and insist that it is all down to the education system NO HISTORIAN HAS EVER MADE SUCH A SUGGESTION - ONCE AGAIN, YOU HAVE INVENTED YOUR OWN SCENARIO AND ARE BLAMING IT ON A HISTORIAN YOU HAVEN'T READ
Far from the Irish hating Britain, it is people like you who are hate filled - towards the Irish - how else would you explain your behaviour.
Your own stance far exceeds the worst of the Loyalists, who are, at least, attempting to come to terms with their past and put things right - you appear to be firmly in the grip of The Red Hand of Ulster - as I said - an extreme hate filled-right wing fanatic who extends his hatred to children.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:06 AM

"I'm sorry about you health issues and really do wish you well, Keith, but if you will make every thread about yourself then that does become the issue." - DtG

But the fact is "he does not make every thread about himself" - DOES HE? You along with the usual gang of cyber bullies does that by:

1: Refusing point blank to address civilly any point raised
2: Resorting to ad hominem attacks - Definition - An ad hominem argument is one that is used to counter another argument; but, it is based on feelings or prejudice, rather than facts, reason or logic. It is often a personal attack on one's character rather than an attempt to address the issue at hand.
3: Make baseless accusations and resolutely refuse to substantiate them when challenged to do so

In previous threads so far mentioned and referred to Keith A has stated the comments, opinions and conclusions of others (Far more qualified to speak on the various subjects than anyone here on this forum) and asked for comment on those points. At no time at all has he claimed those comments, opinions and conclusions as his own - You DtG and the rest of the gang have insisted that he did. Oh and Raggy as to whether somebody has read about something or not - I can remember in one of the WWI threads where you claimed to know nothing about the subject but yet seemed qualified and informed enough to argue points made by "Professors" who had made a life's work of research and study into the subject - so less of the pot calling the kettle black.

The gang of cyber bullies on this forum has destroyed any chance of balanced debate or discussion and the lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:38 AM

Teribus, might I respectfully suggest that your hectoring, aggressive, name-calling demeanour on this board makes any aspiring bully, next to you, look like a crass amateur.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:51 AM

Ah Steve you forget it is quiet acceptable that Teribus can do it, that honour is reserved just for the few. In his most recent post he claims that I stated that I knew nothing about WW1. I think I am reasonably well versed in the subject to be able to express a considered opinion.

Mind you he also claims that Cork is on the East Coast of Ireland so we can judge his claims by that really!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:55 AM

"Far more qualified to speak on the various subjects than anyone here on this forum"
In fact and by self admittance not qualified in the slightest
He has held forth on subjects he has openly admitted that not on;y does he have no knowledge of, but that he has no interest in.
He is arrogant and abusive towards those who disagree with him - "lefties" and "Muppets" being a regular favourite of his, yet he constantly whinges about people being rude to him.
He lies constantly, and when his lies are pointed out to him (usually in the form of quotes he claims not to have made), he does not withdraw his accusations of our being "liars" (another of his favourites - he has used the term 3 times on this thread and numerable times on others), but goes on as if nothing has happened.
His ignorance on subjects he pontificates on is astounding (every bit as as astounding as your own), yet he constantly talks down to people.
He came back to this thread when he had no need to - not on the subject in hand, but defending his own unreasonable behaviour.
It's a bit rich for a bullying clown like yourself to talk about "cyber - bullying" - you are one of the most openly ill mannered, and personally insulting posters on this forum, and you have been told so numerous times.
Glass houses - stones and all that.
Life's work m,y arse - he and you spout jingoism, not knowledge on W.W.1. - he, at least hastily drags out carefully selected, and sometimes edited cut-'n-pastes to make his case - you just pontificate and pronounce and seldom produce anything to back up your statements.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 11:56 AM

i wonder if the moderators on this thread are allowing it to continue in the hope that the participants will look at its development and eventually realise that we are all completely, crazily obsessed with pointless squabbling. we all have to make a decision - rather than being thrown off the bus we could just get off at the next stop....

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:18 PM

Dave,
Only if you let it, Keith. It takes two to tango and, if I may use another platitude, it doesn't matter who started it; it is whoever stopped it that counts.

You are wrong.
Calling me things is a personal, ad hominem attack and is a clear breach of forum etiquette.

Asking for the accusation to be substantiated is a perfectly reasonable response to unreasonable behaviour.
Objecting to Jim making up things that I have never said is a perfectly reasonable response to unreasonable behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:46 PM

Yes, Keith. Whatever. Like I said, whether you take any notice of my opinion is not my problem.

Teribus, if I really wanted to be abusive I would just tell you to fuck off. As it is, I will just utilise a favourite tactic and ask for any supporting evidence of where I have insisted anything like you suggest. I have always made it quite clear thay my opinions are just that. Keith is pompous. You are a twat. Mere opinion only and nothing I would ever isist is true. No shame in proffering honest opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:50 PM

Jim,
He came back to this thread when he had no need to

After I left there were a number of posts about me that required a reply.

Re Kinealy,

She refers to the "traditional, nationalist paradigm" where "blame is generally attributed to ""key groupings, either within the British government.."

She said that "the government instructed history teachers" to deliver that propaganda to children.
That is a description of brain washing.
No wonder there is so much hate!

She said that in the 30s " the Irish academic establishment" tried to get the truth told to the children, but schools just carried on.

She said that the "popular understanding" of that history is coloured as a result to the present day.
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:56 PM

Dave,
I will just utilise a favourite tactic and ask for any supporting evidence of where I have insisted anything like you suggest.

You defended Jim when he lied that I had said the cartoons were just the humour of the time, when he lied that I had denied the existence of "no Irish" signs, and when he lied that we had ever discussed "cartoons depicting famine victims as apes."

You took the side of all those who accused me of being right wing while refusing to produce any right wing view I had ever expressed.

You said it was my fault that they made me the subject of discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 03:01 PM

You defended Jim when he lied

I defended no-one.

You took the side of all those who accused me

I may agree with some people more than others but I take no sides.

You said it was my fault that they made me the subject of discussion.

I said it takes two to tango.

Three misinterpretations in a row, Keith. Is it any wonder people take the piss?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 03:30 PM

"After I left there were a number of posts about me that required a reply."
You have opened up arguments that have been covered over and over again - and you still haven't understood what was discussed first time round
You are still dredging up the same old same old links which contradict everything you are claiming - why not just save time and read the book - it's still available?
Nobody asked you any questions that required answering - you came back to claim you were not right-wing and you have managed to show that you were.
This is the fourth time you have called me a liar - we did discuss cartoons depicting the Irish as apes and you were given the Charles Kingsley quote that says exactly that - you passed it off by saying that's what cartoonists do - despite Britain's appalling reputation of open racism towards the Irish.
If Irish children were brainwashed - where and how - there was nothing published covering The Famine for 150 yeas except one book by an Englishwoman - do't you think it dreadfully remiss of brainwashers to not to attempt to influence their victims through print - the direct line to people's minds?
Your description of the Irish people, particularly their children remains the most offensively racist statement you have ever made - apart from... well, you know!!
Please come down to our local and repeat what you have written - I would like to sell tickets.
Finished with this - you are obviously not going to respond to any of this.
Jim Carroll
.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 03:43 PM

.....and there we must leave them.......

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 03:50 PM

I'm gone from this - I really am Achmelvich
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 04:00 PM

Jim, I too have ask the Professor to visit Ireland, I even said I would buy him a meal and pay for his beer all night in a pub of his choice, e has yet to accept. But like many of his ilk he doesn't have the courage of his conviction. He has already said he knows sweet FA about Irish history and has no interest in it and has no desire to be educated about it despite his increasing number of posts. (500 plus)

But it's not really about Ireland, it's not really about the famine, it's about poor little Keith being "victimised" Sad little bugger really, we should feel sorry for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 03:52 AM

Definition - An ad hominem argument is one that is used to counter another argument; but, it is based on feelings or prejudice, rather than facts, reason or logic. It is often a personal attack on one's character rather than an attempt to address the issue at hand.

You asked for an example of when you have made such an attack DtG

How about your post of:

Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 02:46 PM

Yes, Keith. Whatever. Like I said, whether you take any notice of my opinion is not my problem.

Teribus, if I really wanted to be abusive I would just tell you to fuck off[You mean as Raggytash has already done on this Thread in a response to Keith A?]. As it is, I will just utilise a favourite tactic and ask for any supporting evidence of where I have insisted anything like you suggest. I have always made it quite clear that my opinions are just that. Keith is pompous. You are a twat. Mere opinion only and nothing I would ever insist is true. No shame in proffering honest opinion."

You may offer your opinion, but if that opinion includes accusations then you have to substantiate the grounds for making them. Do you really state opinions that you know to be untrue? - ("Mere opinion only and nothing I would ever insist is true." - Your words" - That would make you out to be the Twat Gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:18 AM

"In previous threads so far mentioned and referred to Keith A has stated the comments, opinions and conclusions of others (Far more qualified to speak on the various subjects than anyone here on this forum) and asked for comment on those points. At no time at all has he claimed those comments, opinions and conclusions as his own - You DtG and the rest of the gang have insisted that he did. Oh and Raggy as to whether somebody has read about something or not - I can remember in one of the WWI threads where you claimed to know nothing about the subject but yet seemed qualified and informed enough to argue points made by "Professors" who had made a life's work of research and study into the subject" - Teribus

Now here is how Carroll deliberately misreads and/or demonstrates his selective comprehension skills when it comes to the English language:

"Life's work m,y arse - he and you spout jingoism, not knowledge on W.W.1. - he, at least hastily drags out carefully selected, and sometimes edited cut-'n-pastes to make his case - you just pontificate and pronounce and seldom produce anything to back up your statements." - Jim Carroll.

So Jim neither Keith, myself, Lighter or others who contributed to those numerous threads on WWI ever mentioned the names of Professors of History whose area of expertise was the "Great War"? - Or would you like me to give examples where I have done so chapter and verse? Where "you and the gang" cling to authors whose work has been discredited in the light of new information and who at best only dabbled in the history of the period, those mentioned above sought to discuss the impact of the new information brought to light by recent work and research into the period in question by academics who do specialise in the subject of WWI. IIRC Keith raised three points you agreed with two of them. What substantive "facts" did you lot bring to the discussion? What points of discussion did any of you counter with any facts at all? Both rhetorical questions Jim - to which the answer in both instances is none.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:31 AM

opinion
əˈpɪnjən/Submit
noun
1. a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

As an opinion is, by definition, neither true nor untrue how can one offer an opinion that is untrue? Neither is it an accusation so you seem to be railing against my view or judgement rather than anything else.

Still, it is nice to know that you are taking notice of my opinion when I really could not give a shit about yours :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:33 AM

Ah Teriblunder. "Definition - An ad hominem argument is one that is used to counter another argument; but, it is based on feelings or prejudice, rather than facts, reason or logic. It is often a personal attack on one's character rather than an attempt to address the issue at hand"

Lets just have a little look back shall we:

26th May "Joe - they are taking the piss, it is what they do, this one is targeted at you and Pete"

29th May "DtG before you go off pin head dancing again I asked Jim a question"

29th May "Care to tell us exactly where you actually touch reality in your life - or is reality a complete and utter foreign land to you?."

3rd June "You see the Musktwats feels free to put that tactic to use whenever they see fit, but others are castigated for doing so (even when they aren't)"

4th June "Go dance on the head of your pin DtG it is about all that you are good for"

I could go on. Again and again. Pot, Kettle, Black.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:04 AM

Jim,
we did discuss cartoons depicting the Irish as apes

Yes we did, as I acknowledged.
We did not discuss cartoons that depicted famine victims as apes, as you claimed.
That was a lie as was your claim that I supported them as being "just the humour of the time."
That was a lie as was your claim that I denied "No Irish" signs.
You lied and lied.

You also claimed that I expressed racist, right wing views on Irish education.
I have shown that the views I expressed were those of an eminent, left wing Irish historian, as published in the pre-eminent journal of Irish history, with supporting references to the works of other eminent Irish historians.

Your argument is demolished Jim.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:09 AM

Personally, I think Achmelvich is right and while we let these discussions degenerate to this level we are all guilty of negating any chance of these threads acting as an exchange of ideas and knowledge
There are people here who don't want this - they appear to have neither and would rather shine like stars and win points.
If anybody has anything further to say on the subject in hand, I suggest we leave it there and move on.
Arguments with these people are simply stating the obvious and a bit of a waste of time and energy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:21 AM

Or you could restrict yourself to discussing the issues instead of making false, personal, ad hominem accusations against contributors you do not agree with, and refrain from telling lies about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:28 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:33 AM"

Is that really the best you can do Raggy? Taking single lines and phrases and posting them without context? Pathetic

Gnome - I couldn't care less for you or your opinions - all I know is that if I hold an opinion on anything that opinion is based on information, reasoning and logic that leads me to believe that opinion to be true. But there again it would appear that you have rather idiotically chosen to completely ignore the word necessarily contained in the definition of the word opinion which therefore logically would lead one to automatically regard any "opinion" of yours to be uninformed and ill-founded - a stance I adopted quite some time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:30 AM

"You lose."
Many thanks Keith incredible timing; I couldn't have made my point more perfectly than you have just done.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:37 AM

That's fine, Teri. If you do not care for my opinions, why spend so much time picking them apart? My opinion is that it is probably because you are a complete knob head But as you do not care less I guess that doesn't matter to you.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:42 AM

"Arguments with these people are simply stating the obvious and a bit of a waste of time and energy"

Well Jim, you seem to waste more time than anyone on the forum and Teribus is correct, you people do not engage in informed discussion you simply attempt to validate your failed ideology by attempted intimidation and falsehoods.

Have you no shame?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 06:13 AM

"Have you no shame?"
I think you trio are making the point of who is fucking up these threads perfectly Ake - feel free to keep it up and hopefully this one will be the last.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 06:23 AM

You are wrong Jim, at least you attempt to make a case, you put a bit of time and effort into what you contribute others on your side of the ideological fence do not.

There are several people here who simply keep up a personal vendetta against Keith, with no attempt to construct an argument.

The same tactics were employed against my self over Homosexual "marriage".
Childish stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 06:58 AM

The same tactics were employed against my self over Homosexual "marriage"
Your anachronistic and extremely homophobic view of homosexual marriage has been blown out of the water time and time again, by argument here and by the fact that, like with capital punishment, society has moved on, yet you still argue for it here - can there be any further proof needed of who is ******* up these threads by fighting long lost battles -
Homosexual marriage is now part of all civilised societies and opposed only by dinosaurs and bigots .
Thank you for making my point, over and over again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 07:17 AM

Whether you agree with my views or not is immaterial in this case, we are talking about reasoned debate.

If we all agreed, there would be no debate.

Regarding the Homosexual "marriage", I have heard nothing which would make me alter my views, never mind my views being "blown out of the water".....That sort of remark is typical of your clique who are no doubt feeling insecure after the mysterious disappearance of "Team Musket".......no facts, just blind ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 07:34 AM

Only a mystery to you, ake...

I have already discussed opinions with Teriboob but I may as well go though it here as well. Debate is all about trying to change opinion. It is very rare for opinion to change due to the rantings of complete strangers on an internet forum. And, yes, I do include myself in ranting. There is little or no point in trying to explain your opinions to people who have already made their mind up on the basis of real world experience. There is even less point in trying to justify opinions that contravene human decency.

My opinions are mine, your opinions are yours. Never the twain shall meet and I am neither going to spend time trying to convince you that you are wrong or listen to you trying to convince anyone else.

May as well just have some fun :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 08:05 AM

"blown out of the water".
Your arguments (what there were of them) have been blown out of the water by the fact that society has moved on and you and those who share your views are now a thing of the past - all we can hope for that the persecution that your views have inflicted on a sizeable portion of the world population will end and, as has its companion bigotry, racism. eventually be made illegal.
Nobody expects you to change your mind - these arguments seldom do that, but they are put up for general scrutiny.
People have put reasonable and articulate arguments on all these subjects - the fact that you and others refuse to acknowledge them as having been made is your problem, nobody else's - they are there for others to see.
You - as with Keith, refuse toi accept arguments - fair enough, your prerogative - but when you fail to make your case, you then go on to claim that no arguments have been been put forward and are just "blind ideology" - it is this which destroys reasonable debates and turns them into dog-fights.
If you addressed the facts rather than debasing them with statements such as the one you have just made, we might get somewhere - at least we wouldn't have to put up with the foul atmosphere your insulting dismissal creates.
As with Keith, my thanks for making my point so succinctly - far better than I could.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 08:19 AM

I have produced dozens of facts which have been studiously ignored.
All I have heard from you people is the media chorus of "it's just not fair/right" that any two people who "love" each other are not allowed to be married.
Although you scream for that.....you wouldn't really like to see it....would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 08:48 AM

In this case there is only one fact that matters. All human beings should be treated fairly and in a consistent manner. To do anything else is nothing but prejudice. Not that it matters to you. As I said, your opinion that they should not. There is as little point in trying convince you otherwise as there is trying to push butter up a porcupines arse with a hot needle.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 09:04 AM

" have produced dozens of facts which have been studiously ignored."
No - you have produced a handful of "facts" (as you see them) dozens of times and they have been responded to and rejected - not just by us, but by the world in general.
One of your most repeated "facts" which you appear to gloat over is your 'Gay Plague' argument.
Being gay is as natural and normal as being left for a large number of people (we don't exactly know how large as bigotry such as that displayed by people such as yourself has served to make homosexuality something to be cautious about - ie - it has actively suppressed it).
Left-handedness carries with it certain problems (I have always been aware of this in tradesman I have worked with and my own peculiar form of left-handedness led me to be punished numerous times at school).
It would be grotesque if people were to adopt your attitude of persistently harping on the problems of left-handedness as you do about your perceived health problems with homosexuality - which is inhumanly (assuming it is true!!)
What would I like - other people's sexuality is none of my, or anybody's business, and those who chose to indulge in such interference appear to me to be very unsure of their own sexuality.
Of course I would like to see people allowed to express their own natural sexuality freely (within the law) and the fact that you wouldn't makes you the bigot you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 11:40 AM

That is not an argument Jim, that is a rant, full of inconsistencies and nonsense.....what on earth does left handedness have to do with marriage or sexual health.

"Laws" can be changed at will by any government who depends on the media to keep power....without recourse to the views of the general public....Sexual minorities have been pushing for years for a lowering of the age of consent.
We have no longer any control over which
direction society is dragged by media power

As I have said, all you have is a failed ideology to support.

Expend some of your energy on fighting against the REAL inequalities in this world......there are plenty of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 11:56 AM

"Expend some of your energy on fighting against the REAL inequalities in this world."
How are you decide on my behalf what the "real" inequalities of the world are.
Homophobia, in any shape or form is to support an "inequality" which has led to lifelong misery, suppression of self, has instigated open violence against people, murder and suicide and it has brought about all sorts of psychological and medical problems.
It is a bigotry that effects millions of human beings - you seem to be pleading a 'special case' to be allowed to continue your own particular fetish of gender-hatred.
If you believe for one minute that a different government will withdraw the basic hard-won human rights that have now been put into place after decades of struggle, you're crazier that I thought you were.
In the case of Ireland, the people voted a change of constitution to allow same-sex marriage, despite the most powerful form of opposition available to its opponents - the threat of eternal damnation.
Has your hatred of homosexuals finally driven you round the twist?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:39 PM

Jim,
We did not discuss cartoons that depicted famine victims as apes, as you claimed.
That was a lie as was your claim that I supported them as being "just the humour of the time."
Also a lie was your claim that I denied "No Irish" signs.
You lied and lied.

You also claimed that I expressed racist, right wing views on Irish education.
I have shown that the views I expressed were those of an eminent, left wing Irish historian, as published in the pre-eminent journal of Irish history, with supporting references to the works of other eminent Irish historians.

Your argument is demolished Jim, and your lies exposed.

It is not homophobic to be on either side of the gay marriage debate.
The fact that it is gaining acceptance does not change that.

Instead of calling someone a homophobe, address what he actually says.
Name calling is just personal, ad hominem abuse. Again.
Resorting to that suggest you are incapable of supporting your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:47 PM

"Homophobia, bigotry, fetish of gender hatred, threat of eternal damnation,crazy, hatred of homosexuals, round the twist."....all in one tiny post with not one fact to back them up?    Is this a new record in abuse? why don't you put as many swear words as you can think of in a box and post them without comment?   That would make more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:48 PM

Name calling is just personal, ad hominem abuse. Again.
Resorting to that suggest you are incapable of supporting your case.

Nonsense, Keith. I have addressed the issue. I have said over and over again that two people who love each other should not be disbarred from marrying as long as the relationship is legal. I have said that forced testing of any human being is not acceptable. These are my opinions, formulated over the years, in real life. Ake has shown that he is incapable of understanding this and, as I keep repeating, no one is going to change anyone's mind on here.

If opinions are not going to be changed then what is the point of the debate other than to show that some people are talking out of their arses?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:51 PM

"Laws" can be changed at will by any government who depends on the media to keep power....without recourse to the views of the general public....Sexual minorities have been pushing for years for a lowering of the age of consent.
We have no longer any control over which
direction society is dragged by media power

Ake,

Looking at the link below,it looks like a large percentage of people are not opposed to gay marriage.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:58 PM

You have never "addressed" any issue, you have simply parroted simplistic claptrap, you are a recognised troll and shall be treated as such by me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:59 PM

"all in one tiny post with not one fact to back them up? "
Your persistence in pursuing your bigoted line - over several years is fact enough Ake - give it a rest, it's a done deal and you and yours are not going to alter it - 21st century and all that.
Keith
You're a done deal too
Six "lies" to date - don't ever whine about being insulted again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 01:02 PM

An archetypal cantankerous combative mudcatter

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 01:08 PM

Derrick, in one part of the United Kingdom H"M" is illegal, worldwide there is a huge majority of countries which do not recognise it.

It is becoming accepted in Western nations where the media control the political and social thought process.

I have watched from the days when homosexuality was a serious criminal offence....I opposed that law, as I oppose the legislation to redefine marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 01:15 PM

Done deal Jim?
What I "done" was expose your lying and showed that views you called racist and right wing were no such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 01:37 PM

Timeline for when Gay marriage became law in the world.
Netherlands (2001)
Belgium (2003)
Canada (2005)
Spain (2005)
South Africa (2006)
Norway (2009)
Sweden (2009)
Argentina (2010)
Iceland (2010)
Portugal (2010)
Denmark (2012)
Brazil (2013)
England & Wales (2013)
France (2013)
New Zealand (2013)
Uruguay (2013)
Luxembourg (2014)
Scotland (2014 )

Number of countries that have reversed that decision
Er..........!!!
Jim Carroll