Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford

Subject: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 06:23 PM

Posting as JTT, but I'll go in and sign in as Thompson as soon as it's posted so people can send me messages if they wish.

I've just come across a letter to Thomas MacDonagh from GH Abraham of the Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford, written on 29 November 1910, and asking for a tune and any background to the Tipperary song MacDonagh had published in The Nation of 19 November.

Is this Irish Folk Song Society still extant (unlikely, I know), and if so, do they still have records that might include the correspondence?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 06:24 PM

Logged in now.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 07:07 PM

By the way, this song was presumably Thank You, Ma'am, Says Dan, which MacDonagh introduced from Tipperary into Dublin and published in The Nation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 06:48 AM

"Is this Irish Folk Song Society still extant"
No it isn't - it disappeared sometime early in the 20th century
The Irish Traditional Music Archive has a full run of their Journals (I think we have - I'll dig them out later)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 08:39 AM

Amazin! I have lived between Old Trafford and Chorlton for 37 years and not only have I never heard of "The Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford", I don't think I have ever heard of Irish Music being played or sung in pubs in Old Trafford.

I once heard an Irish rock band singing "The Boys Behind the Wire" in a pub on Stretford Road about 30 years ago.

How can we get access to the archive Jim?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 09:23 AM

"How can we get access to the archive Jim?"
Look up the Irish Traditional Archive Website - if not, give them a call and ask about them - very helpful crowd.
Less accessible is The Irish Folklore Department at Belfield, Dublin.
Sorry - I may be mistaken about the "Salford" bit.
The Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society ran from 1904 for about 20 issues - annoyingly, I can't lay my hands on the originals, but we also have reprints published in 1968, which include The Bunting Collection in five volumes.
The reprints say they were originally printed by Farncombe and Son, London and Croydon (when Ireland was part of the Empire, gawd bless it!!)
Bit worried I can't lay my hand on the originals - was using them last year to annotate songs - feckin' Leprechauns!!
Will let you know when I do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 10:19 AM

Ah, that's a pity; I was hoping for an original letter or letters in reply. I wonder what happened to Mr Abraham.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 06:37 PM

Just been looking on Ancestry, but can't find an obvious candidate for G.H. Abraham in Old Trafford in the 1911 census... any clues about him, age, etc in the letter?
Derek

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Oct 15 - 07:46 PM

Might it be Abrahams?

Searches throw up a George Henry Abrahams, Town clerk of the borough of Stretford

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 04:29 AM

Like Jim, I have copy of the 1960's reprint of JIFSS. I think there's a PDF copy available online? No idea of the Old Trafford connection.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:01 AM

I'm assuming that this maybe where they were printed - the ones I have were done in Croydon - still can't find them though!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Brakn
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:07 AM

It was George Henry Abrahams of Park Road,Stretford, Lancashire.
Born 1872 in Macclesfield, Cheshire, died 1939.

https://archive.org/stream/journaloffolkson03folk/journaloffolkson03folk_djvu.txt

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/folk-song-society-great-britain/journal-of-the-folk-song-society-volume-v3-klo/1-journal-of-the-folk-song-society-volume-v3-klo.shtml

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 07:20 AM

Brakn

Those links are to the Journal of (English) Folk Song, rather than the Irish publication referred to by OP - is there direct reference to Abrahams there?

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Brakn
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 08:27 AM

Yes. They just say that he was a member.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 06:40 PM

Ta.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 07:03 PM

The letter:

GH Abrahams, Clerk, Education Department, Old Trafford, Near Manchester 29 November 1910 Dear Sir, I shall esteem it a great favour if you can favour me with a copy of the air to the very interesting Tipperary Folk Song which you published in the issue of The Nation of November 19th. As a member of the Irish Folk Song Society I should value any information you could give me concerning the antiquity of the song and the air to which it is sung. Apologising for troubling you so much, yours faithfully, GH Abrahams, Clerk to Committee

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 08:11 PM

I've had a look in the online archives of the Manchester Guardian to see if there are any reports of a branch of the Irish Folk Song Society active in Manchester or Old Trafford in the early 20th century but I can't find any. It seems likely therefore that G H Abrahams was writing to Thomas MacDonagh in an individual capacity as a member, and the text of the letter which Thompson has just posted would seem to confirm that.

The Irish Folk Song Society was a London based organisation, founded in 1904 by Mrs Charlotte Milligan Fox (1864-1916). The Society published 29 volumes of Journals between 1904 and 1932, and these were reprinted in 1967.

There must have been some overlap in membership between the original Folk Song Society and the societies which followed in Ireland, Wales and elsewhere. Evidently G H Abrahams had dual membership. The early Journals of the societies published lists of their members so it would be an interesting study to trace who all these people were and what their interests were.

Unlike Thomas MacDonagh, George Henry Abrahams doesn't seem to have won much fame in the end. He compiled the official guide to Stretford in 1919 and he became Town Clerk when Stretford was incorporated as a municipal borough in 1933. According to the records on Ancestry he was born in Macclesfield in 1872, and died in 1939.

Matthew

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 05:42 AM

Thanks, Matthew Edwards. The journal of the Irish Folk Song Society doesn't yet seem to have made its way online; however, people here might be interested in the Folk Song Society, whose journal for 1908-9 is here.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 05:46 AM

I'll get back to this.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 07:36 PM

If you do, Martin, and if your search bears fruit, could you send me a message on this site, because I do be in and out.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 03:27 AM

Thompson

The Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society is indeed available online in various formats - both the original and the 1960's reprint. Try "Irish Folk Song Society" on Google Books and pick through the options.

PM to follow


Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 07:06 AM

A slight further problem - what exactly was this The Nation? I'm in the British Library and can't find it!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 08:22 AM

It was a 19th century nationalist newspaper
THE NATION
If memory serves, a collection of essays from the paper was published here some years ago in two volumes.
I'm pretty sure I saw it in remainder shops in Dublin and also in Galway (Charlie Byrne's Bookshop) - but can't remember seeing it around for some time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 08:32 AM

But what *was* the paper? The same one Speranza was of? And where was it published?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 09:48 AM

Sorry - can't help there.
Can only suggest you contact NATIONAL LIBRARY of IRELAND , where they have a full run of "The Nation"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Noreen
Date: 11 Feb 16 - 07:30 PM

Thompson, from the link Jim provided above:

The Nation was an Irish nationalist weekly newspaper, published in the 19th century. The Nation was printed first at 12 Trinity Street, Dublin from 15 October 1842 until 6 January 1844. The paper was afterwards published at 4 D'Olier Street from 13 July 1844, to 28 July 1848, when the issue for the following day was seized and the paper suppressed. It was published again in Middle Abbey Street on its revival in September 1849....

...Women wrote for the paper, and published under pseudonyms such as Speranza (Jane Elgee, Lady Wilde, Oscar Wilde's mother), known universally as "Speranza of The Nation; Eithne (Marie Thompson); and Eva (Mary Eva Kelly, who would marry Kevin Izod O'Doherty).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Feb 16 - 03:27 AM

Found it.

In 1910 The Nation was a liberal English paper printed in London (in Henrietta Street). Still wondering who was the editor, etc.

In the 1910 issues I was looking at, including the one I wanted, with Thank You, Ma'am, Says Dan, there are well-argued articles on women's right to vote and to divorce, and on conscription and the death penalty, and commentary on the political news of the time. A very interesting paper. I wonder who could tell me more about it, its editor and its readership.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Irish Folk Song Society, Old Trafford
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Feb 16 - 05:04 AM

(By the way, the one in the National Library of Ireland is a different paper, the earlier Irish one Speranza wrote for. I don't know if this is connected to the 1900s The Nation produced in London.)