BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.

Subject: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:53 AM

WHY?
Has Mr Obama gone back on his promise?

Commentators here think it is "gesture politics", but is that not an extremely dangerous game? Or is HtH putting on the pressure in her bid for the Presidency?

In any case, why no comment so far?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 10:51 AM

It's a proxy struggle, Ake. US and Russia posturing. There have been "advisors" on the ground in that region for a long time. This simply formalizes it. To general disappointment here.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 10:51 AM

Because they are just boots!

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 11:01 AM

You do realize that 'boots on the ground' is a trick phrase to avoid talking about real men and women being in danger, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 11:25 AM

Yes I realise that leeneia.

In just cant see the sense of the policy, why don't they accept Russia's offer of shared intelligence and firepower?
Surely they realise that ISIS is a grave danger to us all and must be controlled. Putting US soldiers between President Assad's troops and ISIS a very dangerous tactic and very stupid if it is being done for domestic political consumption.

This is an issue where we can work together in a common cause and make the world a safer place into the bargain.
It could lead to further co-operation in military AND commercial issues.......what exactly is Mr Obama trying to achieve?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 11:27 AM

I am also sure that putting troops into a sovereign country without the permission of the recognised government of that country is illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:07 PM

"Putting US soldiers between President Assad's troops and ISIS a very dangerous tactic"
And allowing to win this war and return to power is putting at risk many thousands of Syrian lives - an inevitable return to the situation described so vividly in the Amnesty report on Human Rights abuses in Syria.
Had the United Nations intervened or had the West overridden the Russio/Chinese vetor, as they would have if there had been oil involved, Isis would have been no more than a bunch of ranting cranks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:26 PM

Had the west overridden the veto, Syria would now be just like Libya.

We needed boots on the ground long ago, but the boots were not forthcoming and we would not support Assad's troops.In fact we wanted to wipe out Assad's troops....how stupid is that?
Russia did what was required by giving meaningful air cover and now Assad is pushing the terrorists back....he should keep pushing till these maniacs are wiped out.

Inserting US troops between Assad and the terrorists is dangerous and stupid. Why are the American public not protesting this madness?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:27 PM

War has few laws left that anyone pays attention to. Ain't good, but it's the way it has become. War is a racket. When you have an hour to spare the book by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC is worth a read. It's online and easy to find with Mr Google. He also spoke about interventionism and here is an oft-quoted piece from him.

Smedley Butler on Interventionism.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:28 PM

Eighty years and we ain't learned squat.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:37 PM

That link just about nails it #.

It is now further complicated by a pseudo religious perspective.

Perhaps we are reaping what we have sowed, but a virulent epidemic needs to be wiped out......self preservation is important, these people do not recognise mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 01:43 PM

At least the Russians were invited by the legitimate government. Any American boots on the ground show a total contempt for international law.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM

It wouldn't actually be that bad if we followed the model that General Butler so concisely explained--the thing is, we don't.

Yes, we marched in, took over, and set up stable, if not oppressive, puppet governments that we could do business with, the Shah in Iran, Quadaffi (or however you want to spell it)in Libya,Saddam in Iraq, the Taliban(or don't you remember that we set them up?) etc. --so far so good--

The thing is, we then we decided, for one reason or another, that we didn't like them(usually, it was because if you set up a despotic government that is focussed on creating wealth, sooner or later, the liberalizing effects of wealth trickle down, and the body politic starts to think they ought to be self-determining, rather than chattels to Western interests) and, with great fanfare, fussed about torture and rampant violation of civil rights(which, to be completely honest, we taught them how to do) so we subsidize random, dubious sorts to overthrow the Shah, start the Arab Spring, invade Iraq--and expect that some sort of liberal, congenial, economically cooperative democracy will just spring from the ground. And so it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 02:19 PM

"Had the west overridden the veto, Syria would now be just like Libya."
Not necessarily - it could just as easily have been like Tunisia
Whatever way it was - the dead of Homs the many thousands of others massacred by or now ally would have been saved, the refugees wouldn't have existed and Isis would not have got a foothold and become the world threat it now is.
As I said - the boots would be very much forthcoming had there been oil involved - the U has never thought twice about sending in The Marines -and the napalm and the Agent Orange and the B52s - whenever its economic or political interests ate threatened or offended and its poodle, Britain, would have been there like a shot - HMV and all that.
Britain could and should have taken diplomatic steps to stop the massacres - we did nothing and Assad's assets remain untouched in London.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 02:27 PM

As so often......"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread". US troops on the ground, in whatever capacity, however few, just the sort of recruitment boost IS will milk for all it's worth.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:08 PM

The sense I've got throughout is that all the news we got For years was soun to present an oversimplofied narrative of a horribly complex situation, in which the opposition were presnted as shining democrats, and Assad's as the most evil of dictatorships, with no popular support.

In fact, as has now become clear, much of the opposition were and are ruthless sectarian fanatics, and Assad had majority support. Which was a mixture that ensured a genocidal war.

The only realistic option is to make some kind of deal with the Assad regime, as appears to be available in principle, under which there is a united front against Isis and Al Qaeda, and an agreement that the decision about the nature of the Syrian givernment should be made by a genuine popular vote, including refugees, and not imposed by any outside powers.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:25 PM

Excellent resume Mr McGrath.   Like most other issues debated here it has become an issue of ideology.

Common sense has been removed from the equation.

In the minds of most Western "liberals" it was all about the "Arab Spring".....perhaps not in the minds of Western governments, who have little truck with such luxuries as real equality or real democracy, but in the minds of "useful idiots" who believe that our type of "freedom" can be transplanted into other cultures.

It took us many decades to debauch and weaken our society into the dirty joke it has become.....what makes "liberals" think that they can achieve it overnight?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 07:05 PM

The US "boots" are targeting ISIS, not Assad or the rebels. This can't be a bad thing unless you support what they (ISIS) are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 08:13 PM

If they genuinely are merely targetting Isis, it ought in principle be possible to get the Syrian government to approve such involvement, and to get the Russians to lean on them to do so if need be. This would mean it was actually legal.

In the absence of consent by the Syrian government, or approval by the UN Security Council, this move is as illegal as the invasion of Iraq was.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 10:24 PM

Just think what things would have been like if France and Britain had, after WWI and WWII, treated the Arabs as they should have been. Dividing the Middle East among various ethnic and religious groups, instead of tossing every group into supergroups and calling them independent countries, could have prevented at least some of the violence and problems we see today.

And I do not forget that US CIA, at the request of MI6, overthrew the properly elected government of Mohammad Mosaddegh in Iran, which brought the Palevis to power, which...well, you know (or should).

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 12:27 AM

GUEST: "The US "boots" are targeting ISIS, not Assad or the rebels..."

..according to who??
ISIS is targeting Assad, and the Russians, and we're supporting WHO???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:50 AM

So Raparee, do you think that the overthrow of the Shah made Iran a better place?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 04:21 AM

It must be only the US that recognises good and bad terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 04:48 AM

"In fact, as has now become clear, much of the opposition were and are ruthless sectarian fanatics, and Assad had majority support"
Simplistic in the extreme i'm afraid Mac.
The Assad family have been imprisoning, torturing and 'disappearing' opposition to its regime for decades - the West have been fully aware of this, certainly since the Amnesty report was published several years prior to the Arab Spring protests - that report contained descriptions of systematic arrests, torture of those arrested and then killing of anybody opposing the Syrian Government - it was this that largely led to the protests, which were brutally put down, Homs being the most memorable.
The protests were peaceful and were put down by extreme force, so much so that the U.N. made a move to intervene - vetoed by China and Russia.
The West refused to intervene, the slaughter continued and developed into civil war.
Inaction on the part of the West led to international disaffection by Muslims, who volunteered to support the opposition - Isis became part of this and came to prominence from the indifference of the West to the plight of the Syria people at the hands of Assad.
It would be appalling if Assad were to come out of this with clean hands and allowed to return to his old ways - where that to happen, the slaughter of his opponents would be unimaginable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 04:52 AM

Untrue Guest, the UK and France also recognise "good" terrorists.

The "good" terrorists are those who assist them to achieve their goals.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 04:57 AM

Stim,

It was the overthrow of Mosaddegh that Raparee questioned, not whether Iran was better under the Shah or Khomeni. This was at the behest of Britain and the USA, we (the British) were at least as guilty as the USA. And the reason was, as ever, oil interests. I think there is no question that Iran would be a better place had this democratic government been allowed to continue. As for whether the Shah was better or worse than Khomeni, well thats a difficult question.

At some stage in all this, the UK and US decided that in the centuries old, poorly understood, and probably irresolvable conflict between Sunni and Shia Islam, the west would support the Sunnis. Hence the support for Saddam's Iraq in the war against Iran, hence the continuing military support for the feudal monarchy of Saudi Arabia. That decision now seems to be over simplistic at best.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 05:36 AM

Assad,s regime has evintly been responsible for brutally repressing opposition. But the evidence is that it had majority support. Those opposing it included not merely democrats, but also a significant element of sectarian fanatics, and these have been the most effective in the conflict. That includes those who emerged as Isis and also those affiliated to al Quaeda.

It's a horrible messy civil war, and no one has clean hands.

The decision whether Assad should go is one that has ti lie with the people of Syria, not imposed by outsiders, who haven't got clean hands either.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 06:53 AM

"But the evidence is that it had majority support."
So what - atrocitis are atrocities
I'm sure those in former Yugoslavia who committed the atrocities they did had majority support - didn't stop them being tried for war crimes.
Did't the Nazis have majority support from the German people for a time?
No side in any war comes out with "clean hands"
It would be reasonable if it is decided to prosecute any side for war crimes carried out during the fighting, but Assad's crimes go far beyond those.
The Civil War was a direct result of Assad's brutal suppression of legitimate peaceful protests, and prior to that, at least a decade of imprisonment, torture and mass murder committed by his opponents in peacetime
It is both facile and unfair to compare Assad and his opponents.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 09:58 AM

I'm all for putting Assad on trial, but that's a separate matter. The military campaign against Serbia that brought a halt to the war with Bosnia wasn't carried on until Milosevic was removed from office or surrendered for trial. The Serbs themselves took care of removing him from power, well after the end of fighting. Tony Blair still hasn't been put on trial. Nor has Netanyahu, and loads more. It's an imperfect worrld.

Insisting that Assad has to step down before there can be any attempt to make peace is just a way of making sure the war continues.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:35 AM

Nor has Netanyahu....

Defending against terrorist attacks is not a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:44 AM

If it isn't agreed that Assad will be removed from office and stand trial for his crimes, the situation will revert back to where it was, he will take revenge on those who opposed him and all those who died will have done so in vain - Russia will make sure of that.
This is guaranteed to strengthen the support for Isis - or any such group that follows - them - ongoing terrorism fuelled by disaffection.
The Syrian people are not in the position that the Serbs were - opposition has been virtually removed from Syria by four and a half years of armed conflict and the State terrorism that preceded it.
You can bet you life that, once Isis has ceased to become a threat to the West and its interests, the situation of the Syrian people will be about as relevant to The West as it was prior to the War - total abandonment of them to their fate at the hands of Assad.
Do you honestly believe that Assad will allow the 4 million refugees to return to Syria should he remain in power?
Not to put him on trial will be politically and economically convenient for the West, except, of course, we will still have the refugee crisis to cope with - would you go back to what they have left?
Putting him on trial is certainly not a separate matter; it's very much a part of reaching a long-term solution - for the benefit of the Syrians and of the world as a whole.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:48 AM

"Defending against terrorist attacks is not a crime."
Ethnically cleansing a people who have occupied a country for millenia in order to create a monotheistic State is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:57 AM

Ethnically cleansing a people who have occupied a country for millenia in order to create a monotheistic State is.

That is not happening in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:13 AM

It is, however, the avowed policy of the proposed future Muslim state in the disputed territories of Judea and Samaria.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:29 AM

"That is not happening in Israel."
Yes it most certainly is - even the Israeli moderates are referring to what is happening as "an Apartheid State".
Nuff said - not nausing up a thread with this shit - it's all on record.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:44 AM

it's all on record.

Lol....whose record, yours and your ilk's?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:47 AM

It might be better to focus on Syria for now.

Removing Assad from power especially in advance of any negotiations (and in fact it's a regime, not just one man) just isn't an option, without the overthrow of the government by the opposition - in which the only really effective bunch are really Isis and al Qaeda, or by outsiders. (Apart from the Kurds) Which really isn't on. (Even if it was the precidents of Iraq and Libya aren't exactly promising.)

It's not going to happen, and insisting on it merely guarantees the war cobtinues, or that Assad, with Russian support, defeats the whole bunch of opposition, including Isis.

It would be possible to negotiate round aims such as supervised elections, including the exiles- who of course the regime is not in a position to control. In fact that's been offered and rejected so far. The thing is, the Russians exert a lot of influence, and peace is very much in their interests, and Assad is probably dispensible to them. There are people in the opposition who likely would come on board for a settlement.

An outright victory for the opposition, even if possible, would be likely to end in something akin to Libya, with sectarian extremists running the show in so far as anyone ran it.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 12:07 PM

It might be better to focus on Syria for now.

So why did you bring Netanyahu into the convo? Oh wait, your posting history answers that.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 12:45 PM

Why did I bring Tony Blair in for that matter? To make my point their are plenty of people walking free who should be put on trial for alleged war crimes. Netanyahu is another. Of course, innocent until proved guilty applies in all cases. Perhaps he might get found not guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:00 PM

"Removing Assad from power especially in advance of any negotiations"
Need to do what they've done in the pat in such circumstances - put the situation into the hands of the U.N. - difficult with Russia and China's veto, but the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.
"So why did you bring Netanyahu into the convo?"
Probasbly for the same reason as you brought in Judea and Samaria (not part of Syria to my recollection)
Israel is very much a part of the problems of the Middle East and a terrorist State with nuclear weapons and a religious agenda makes it a dangerous one - the other sie of the coin to Isis (except Isis Doesn't have a bomb yet - early days!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:21 PM

put the situation into the hands of the U.N. - difficult with Russia and China's veto, but the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

For "difficult" read "impossible". After what happened with the UN go ahead in Libya, in which a very carefully limited approval got hijacked, and turned into a full-blooded air campaign to force regime change, Russia is not going to be tricked in that way again. The alternative may not bear thinking about, but it's going to have to be a case of grin and bear to think about it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:33 PM

Israel is very much a part of the problems of the Middle East and a terrorist State with nuclear weapons and a religious agenda makes it a dangerous one

Israel's very existence is a problem to it's antisemitic Muslim neighbours and, it seems, to some of the posters here.

To call it a terrorist state with a religious agenda is simply another one your typical antisemitic slurs. If you want to see terrorist states with religious agendas just look around Israel's neighbourhood .

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:35 PM

Canada has had a similar training mission underway since over a year ago. We have about 70 special warfare troops (and they likely require 500 other troops to support them) training Peshmerga fighters. The first person to do an accurate chart of who's fighting and who's supporting whom will win a three-day all expenses paid vacation to the Puzzle Palace or in lieu of the vacation the winner may elect to recieve $79.95 in cash.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:50 PM

"recieve $79.95 in cash."

Or if you'd rather, receive.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 02:01 PM

"For "difficult" read "impossible".£
In which case, we'd better get used to the fact that millions of Syrian refugees with by hammering on the doors of Western Countries for at least the rest of my lifetime.
Letting Assad stay in power is not even a partial solution
"To call it a terrorist state with a religious agenda is simply another one your typical antisemitic slurs"
More or less how David Beg Gurion described the State of Israel - built on stolen land, but chosen by God to do what they did - can't get a more authoritative opinion than that - which is why the Israelis have put his papers out-of-bounds.
It is Antisemitic to equate Israeli behaviour with the Jewish people as a whole - but then again, you know that.
Don't get tired of trolling - Bearded Bruce - you don't even have the nouse to hide your identity?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 02:43 PM

I asked before, "and we're supporting WHO???"...and the subject got quickly changed...the fact is, the battle lines have been drawn, but who is on what side for whom, because the way this is being reported vs. what is PERCEIVED as a 'policy', makes no sense whatsoever...UNLESS there is a different, well hidden agenda. We're sending almost 50 spec ops forces, to allegedly, train a splinter group, to overthrow Syria, who is being backed by the Russians, and allegedly at odds with Iran, is ISIS and blah blah blah. Perhaps some of you, may consider taking your heads out from colon inspection posture, and find the one common ground, that the battle lines are drawn between,
Hint: What does Israel have in common with Russia??...and even Syria??..as opposed to the U.S. interests, and why?
The answer to that, defines the battle lines...or should I say the well hidden agenda driven battle lines.....

THINK!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 05:16 PM

Perhaps Obama wants to one-up his predecessor by handing off not two, but three wars to the next President....

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 07:58 PM

Unless the Security Council approves it, any military incursions into Syria without the agreement of the Syrian government is illegal. No ifs and buts and perhapses.

That doesn't mean it might not happen. It does mean that its outcome is bound to be disastrous, in the same way as the illegal invasion of Iraq, and the arguably legal operation in Libya to overthrow the regime - or for tgat matter the legal but still disastrous war in Afghanistan.

Continuing war will indeed ensure continuing flights of refugees. Negotiations without any preconditions are the only way it can end, unless with Russian support Assad can defeat the various oppositions which are fighting each other as well as the government.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:18 PM

"Continuing war will indeed ensure continuing flights of refugees."

If that wasn't said by Orwell it should've been.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 06:09 AM

"Continuing war will indeed ensure continuing flights of refugees."
Catch 22 it is then.
Can't continue the war because of more refugees, but if Assad is allowed to retain power, more massacres and torture plus the present refugees can only return to face the same.
Hmmmm!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 08:17 AM

More or less how David Beg Gurion described the State of Israel - built on stolen land, but chosen by God to do what they did

He did not say any such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 08:39 AM

Yes he did Keith - you've been given it and you said (without evidence) that it was a fake.
Not going to waste any more time on atrocity deniers like yourself - you want to show us that the Israeli regime are goodies, explain the massacres and atrocities - "they said they didn't do nuffin'" doesn't hack it - we saw the pictures of last years' massacres and destruction on tele - pictures really don't tell lies - not like atrocity deniers anyway.
Now go away and talk to David Irving - he might be able to help you polish up your act.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 09:03 AM

Let's have a rousing chorus, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 09:09 AM

Carroll, have you tried mood stabilizers to manage your anger and hatred. Perhaps a low dose of something like Seroquel maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 01:44 PM

Against an enemy like ISIS there is no alternative.

The Syrian regime aided by Russian and American air power is the only possible way of liquidating them.

America must get its personnel out of the way in double quick time.

As Sanity says, where are the moderate rebels? are they the same "moderates" who murdered Gaddafi in cold blood and reduced Libya to a jungle.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 02:44 PM

Yes he did Keith - you've been given it and you said (without evidence) that it was a fake.

You claimed it was said in an interview.
It was not.
One person in a book written years later claimed to remember him saying it, but there is no-one else in the whole world who corroborates it.

You claim it, so you should provide evidence that he really said it.
Good luck with that.

Your reliance on such apocryphal "quotes" shows how hopelessly weak your case is.

Why would he say they had stolen the land?
The UN gave it to them nearly 70 years ago!

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:05 PM

The refugees ghave fled fripon the war, not specifically from Assad. If a negotiated peace can include a guarantee of free elections, properly monitoored, with the refugees having votes, that could ensure a safer envirobment allowing people to return home.
............

In no way did the UN "give" Israel most of the territory it hold on to today.

In any case, if the UN were to "give" Hertfordshire to, say, exiled Syrians, to set up a new country, would you regard that as a fair title of ownership? Palestine didn't belong to the UN, any more than it belonged to Britain when the Balfour Declaration was issued.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:13 PM

"The refugees ghave fled fripon the war, "
The protests showd that Assad's terror was not going to stop and his response, particularly Homs showed the lengths he was prepared to got to to crush opposition.
Please don't get him off the hook and make him less of a monstar than he was - he is fighting his own people - the ones who fought for better conditions and an end to his terror.
He is a war criminal and if he is let off the hook he will continue with his slaughter - simple as that.
Piss off Keith - if you have any proof that Ben Gurion's QUOTE is a fake - please produce it - or somebody who
has even claimed it to be a fake - apart from yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:26 PM

- if you have any proof that Ben Gurion's QUOTE is a fake - please produce it -

I have proof that the quote originated in a book written years later, the author claiming to remember it being said but with no supporting evidence or corroboration from anyone else that it was ever said by anyone.
Fake or genuine, the quote is his understanding of the Palestinian view and not his own, so what point are you making with it anyway?

The authenticity is questioned by many.
Google "ben gurion stolen land"

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 06:04 PM

It's not a question of letting Assad off the hook. He's not on the hook. He,s carrying out a vicious campaign, in which enormous numbers of innocent civilians are being killed, in the same way as the British did in the last war, the Americans did in Vietnam and both have done in Iraq.

There are any number of people I'd love to see on trial for war crimes - but acting realistically to end the war in Syria has to be the priority, and if that means accepting that Assad is not giing to be put on trial at this time,, that's what has to be done.

It may indeed be true that the opposition includes freedom-loving, democracy-minded anti-sectarians. But it also includes some who are none of those things. The news today carried images of civilian women and children Alawites in metal cages being taken through the streets to be used as human shields in rebel held areas. And that wasn't in Isis controlled tterritory.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 07:15 PM

The problem here is that a few people seem to think that "protesters" in the Middle East and North Africa walk about with little boards around their necks saying "Assad Out", "No more of this sort of thing"

There may be a handful of genuine protesters but that handful must be raving mad.....The regime thinks they are terrorists and the terrorists think they are useful idiots who will certainly be butchered after the regime falls.
Syria, Iraq, Libya, are not like dear old England, they are awash with arms and inhabited by people who are willing to exterminate everyone who refuses to accept their views.

These countries can only be run by hard dictators, they may evolve into democracy.....but not as we know it "Jim".

Remove the dictators and you have chaos....how many times must it happen before that fact sinks into the Mudcat perception.
It's about time the cold war was forgotten and some co operation shown between the great powers...

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 03:21 AM

"It's not a question of letting Assad off the hook."
Yes you are Mac - and I am afraid what will happen if Assad is allowed to stay, what you are saying here will be used to leave him in charge "war is war and bad things happen".
Assad was carrying out atrocities against his people and committing against humanity long before the war began - part of the reasons for the protests was the torture chambers, the arrest without trial of opponents, the mass murders and the lack of democracy.
The West were aware of this and (Britain particularly) treated him as a friend and refused to do anything about it - he was a mass murderer long before he became a war criminal.
Why try the Nazis once peace had been achieved?
"Remove the dictators and you have chaos."
May thanks for confirming a long-held suspicion Ake.
Dictatorship is fascism pure and simple - the forcible imposition of the wishes of the State over that of the people.
The idea that some people are not fit for democracy and need a dictator to rule them adds a racist tinge to the argument.
Wow - you've finally said what you mean - thanks!!
Thank god that "fact" will never sink into the perception of most people on Mudcat - nor, hopefully - into that of the majority of the people of the planet.
People of my generation can think of six million reasons why it never will.
"I have proof that the quote originated in a book written years later"
Congratulations Keith - you are the only person on this planet to have claimed this quote to have been a fake - that's got to be a first for Mudcat!!
Not even the Israeli regime has bothered to do that - their response was to place Ben Gurion's papers out of reach of the general public.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 04:58 AM

Congratulations Keith - you are the only person on this planet to have claimed this quote to have been a fake - that's got to be a first for Mudcat!!

Jim, you first claimed (just weeks ago on world order thread) that the quote appeared in Haaretz.
When challenged, you said he made it in an interview.
Challenged again, and you admitted it only appeared, unauthenticated, in an obscure book by an obscure author.

Google "ben gurion stolen land" as I suggested and you will see I am not alone in questioning it.

Here is a genuine, authenticated Ben Gurion quote,

"Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
Written statement (1920), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai (1985), Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, Oxford University Press."

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:09 AM

" that the quote appeared in Haaretz."
It did. it was reported to have been made to during an interview with Nahum Goldmann - a Zionist supporter of Israel's cause whose Zionist credentials are impeccable, and recalled in his memoirs - certainly not "obscure"
Nahum_Goldmann
The only challenge are blog by unknown bloggers
Any chance you will piss off now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:23 AM

It did. it was reported to have been made.....
Really?
Google can not find it.

This is where YOU finally admitted it came form.
"As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99."

(I would call that obscure)

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:31 AM

Jim, for someone who purports to be a socialist, you really seem to have no grasp of reality.


A real socialist never tries to fool himself. We must be realists first and foremost.

From an economic standpoint a socialist must realise and explain that in changing the economic system, many people are going to be financially worse off......people like you, the soft left, are in denial, no one believes a word you say.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:52 AM

"Jim, for someone who purports to be a socialist, you really seem to have no grasp of reality."
As a socialist, I wouldn't suggest that fascists are in any way acceptable as rulers of countries in a million years - as you just have - National Socialists maybe, nothing to do with my socialism - obviously yours.
I was brought up in a world where socialists died fighting fascism (my father risked his life and was wounded and imprisoned for doing so - others took to the streets to drive the fascist Blackshirts back into their rat-holes).
Your socialism is not mine and I would find it difficult to give an example of other socialists with your outlook on life
For "realist" read "expediency to suit Western interests".
"Google can not find it."
You can't find it, you mean, even though you have been give reference to it.
No comment on the "obscure book by the obscure author - thought not!!
You have who Goldmann is (quoted first in Haaretz), you have the quote.
If you can't do better than this 'running round like a headless chicken to appease Israel's terrorism' act, piss of and let the adults discuss the subject in hand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:01 AM

Jim, on 6th October you claimed Ben Gurion wrote it.
Next day you claimed he said it in a CBS interview.
Later that same day you admitted for the first time that it only appeared, unauthenticated, in that obscure memoir.

The obscure author died in 1982 aged 87.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:06 AM

You can't find it, you mean, even though you have been give reference to it.

What reference?
Now you are only claiming that some obscure person told Haaretz about it anyway!
What happened to your claims that Ben Gurion actually said or wrote that quote?

Just some obscure person claiming to remember it from some obscure time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:18 AM

Nope - direct quote from Goldmann's statement in Haretz along with comment that Ben Gurion's documents had been removed from public access (contrary to Israeli constitutional law - indicating that he said much more that "wasn't suitable for the public gaze)
Go away - I have no more interest in you or your appeasement to State terrorism and excuses fir it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:07 AM

So all we have is Goldman(?)'s uncorroborated statement that BG once said it, and only your word that it appeared anywhere except once in a memoir and not BG's.

So why did you first try to claim that BG wrote it?
Why did you then try to claim that BG said it in an interview?
You make stuff up all the time Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:14 AM

direct quote from Goldmann's statement in Haretz

When did you see this quote Jim.
He died in 1982 aged 87.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 10:07 AM

I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 10:58 AM

"I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread"
Only Goofus so far as I can see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 12:54 PM

Notice too how Israel keeps getting attacked even though it is irrelevant to the war in Syria.
That seems to be the only Mid East issue they want to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

Jim, when did you see the Haaretz report of a quote from someone called Goldmann dead for over thirty years, and why did you claim that BG had made the quote himself in writing, and then that BG said it himself in an interview, when we only have Goldmann's (who he?)assertion that he ever said it at all?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:19 PM

"someone called Goldmann dead for over thirty years,"
SOMEONE NAMED GOLDMANN
GOLDMANN AGAIN - ARE YOU NOT TIRED OF MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF
Please go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 02:31 PM

Lots of people have a wiki page and an obit.
Do not pretend you had heard of him before.
You claimed that BG had made the quote in writing, and then that he made it in an interview, before you finally acknowledged that someone called Goldmann was the only person in the world who supposedly heard him say it.

You then claimed to have seen a report in Haaretz of Goldmann claiming to have heard BG say it, but Goldmann has been dead for thirty three years!!

So, when did you see this report Jim??

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 02:44 PM

We've moved passed this, I'm afraid, but for Raparee and Dave, here is an article that punctures the story about Mossadegh that every seems to have embraced. Myth of the American Coup

For one thing, though he was, at one time, quite popular with the Iranian people, by the time he was overthrown in 1953, he was amazingly unpopular. After nationalizing the oil fields, he failed to renegotiate the oil contracts with Great Britain--the economy tanked, and, rather than risk having his party lose control, he suspended parliamentary elections and usurped control of the military, and drove the Shah (who, whatever you may think of him, was the legal and constitutional ruler of Iran) into exile.

Also, although he was Prime Minister, it wasn't by popular election--the Iranian Parliament had the constitutional authority to select it's own leader, subject to the Shah's approval. The only public election he ever won was the one that place him in the parliament....As to the CIA coup...well, just read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:06 PM

If Assad had been overthrown and was in custody, and it was decided not to put him in the dock, that would be letting him off the hook. But he hasn't been overthrown, and he's not in custody.

I''m not suggesting he shouldn't be put on trial. I'm saying that negotiations should be without preconditions. That includes insisting that before anything can be done Assad will be removed or his removal will have been agreed by the Syrian government.

Peace in Vietnam wasn't put on hold until Nixon annd Kissinger and co were put on trial. Sometimes you have to accept it that justice might neve be done. Most times in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:13 PM

Nixon and Kissinger never went on trial (although they should have for their secret war in Cambodia and Nixon for his part in the Watergate cover up) but some of their henchman did and a number of them wound up with prison terms.

The American people would never sit still for an alliance with a bloodthirsty thug like Assad or even Putin. We do have a sad history in the previous century of propping up corrupt tyrants but Assad's atrocities are just too well documented.

For my part I think we should get out of the middle east and Afghanistan post haste. 15 years of war is more than enough. At this point we're just inspiring more enmity towards us and boosting the recruiting efforts of various terrorist organizations. The only involvement we should have over there is to provide humanitarian aid. Time to let Israel shift for itself and to move away from our dependency on fossil fuel.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:52 PM

Time to let Israel shift for itself....

What about the neighbouring Muslim countries to which the US gives vastly more aid - should they also be let to shift for themselves or is it just Israel that you have a problem with?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:05 PM

Let's give ONLY humanitarian aid to whoever our government deems worthy. To me Israel should certainly be considered.

The idea that constant war will achieve peace is insane.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:16 PM

"I'm saying that negotiations should be without preconditions."
Been here Mac.
If Assad is allowed to hold office he will never relinquish that position and the Syrian people will suffer as a consequence.
Assad will never agree to being put on trial at a later date (the outcome of him doing so is too much of a foregone conclusion).
You seem to be doing a Keith here and givig yourself all the options - whatever happened to your suggestion that his crimes are no worse than those carried out by any other country at war?
I go along with Gillymor - "no alliance with a bloodthirsty thug2 sums it up perfectly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 09:00 PM

"If Assad is allowed to retain office" - who do you think is in a position to allow him or prevent him in the absence of some kind of negotiation process?

But what in effect you are proposing, Jim, is that Assad will be able to retain office. Unless you imagine that somehow the opposition, will be able to win this war. The most effective parts of that opposition being Isis and the Al Qaeda afiliated sections.

Negotiations can only start with all preconditions dropped. Once they are under way, stuff like setting up an electoral process, and finding ways to safeguard it, following a ceasefire, could be thrashed out. Including even some way of ensuring that even if a majority of people want Assad, he'd step down to give the new regime a chance.

If a few years on the Syrian's follow the example of the Serbians and hand him over for trial like Milosevic, fine. But that's the only way it can happen.

In fact Assad's crimes are comparable to those carried out by other countries. America's body count of Vietnamese was a great deal higher than Assad's. It is likely that the same may be true in Iraq. As I said, I'd dearly like to have seen those responsible tried for war crimes, but that's how it goes.

As for "no alliance with a bloodthirst thug", that is a good principle, and of course a complete break with our traditional practice.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:55 AM

Talking of "bloodthirsty thugs"...America is about to vote for a politician who supported the invasion of Iraq and Libya.

It's up to the Syrian people to decide who governs them.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 03:03 AM

akenaton: "I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread?"

Jim Carroll: "Only Goofus so far as I can see."

Maybe they would, if any of the morons would address the SUBJECT of thread. You guys are all bickering over bullshit, and who said what when, and who is more wrong with their quotes!!

I gives me reason to think that a lot of you don't have a clue, so in lieu of a clue, you try to sound like you have fired up opinion based on nothing!!.......and ramble on, as if you have some dignity at stake!!!

Oh yeah,....and who cares what 'real socialists'(?) are SUPPOSED to think about it through the 'socialist accepted indoctrination'. How about looking at it the way it is, instead of trying to stuff it in some stupid box...If you're having problems with that, consider a wider view, than through the myopic 'socialist' filter...(or at least what you THINK the socialist consciousness is) instead of reality!

Try this(if it doesn't hurt your heads to much to think)....the global corporate oligarchy vs the the countries of a 'nationalistic' focus....sort out who is who (or really who), and it will start to make sense....keep in mind that Russia, China, India and Iran have a defense pact......and another though...the global oligarchy really has no need to give a shit about America one way or the other...unless they need to rent their military.....OK...go figure it out!

Happy Cogitations!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 03:55 AM

"It's up to the Syrian people to decide who governs them."
There's never been a chance of that happening (that's what started all the bloodletting in the first place) and the possibility of there being any significant change will be virtually non-existent if Assad returns to office.
I wonder of those here who say he should be part of the peace have thought through what will happen to the million or so refugees should a peace be brokered which includes him.
The West is anxious to get them off our backs, so their solution is obvious - send them back to where they came from - to what exactly???
Doesn't bear thinking about.
Goofus:
Israel is a side-issue to this, but it is an issue - what happens there is very much a part of what is happening in the Middle East in general and stands to be a source of greater trouble if things continue as they are heading, including adding to the already critical flow of refugees should predictions be correct and Palestine become uninhabitable in five years if the Israeli devastation isn't put right.
As for 'socialism' - I raised it when the desirability of dictatorship was mooted by our resident N.S.er - maybe you don't think that worth responding to - I do.
Your pearl of wisdom re oligarchies v nationalists is missing an essential; piece - that of the fanatical God-botherers who have taken advantage of the situation - it is they who offer the most immediate threat at present, and they who have escalated the conflict into an international one.
Maybe your definitive pronouncements aren't that definitive after all.
Perhaps if you stopped talking down to people offered some real ideas - must be difficult from the hole in the ground you appear to occupy!
Happy pontificating.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 04:40 AM

Israel is a side-issue to this, but it is an issue

No it is not.
Israel has played no part in the events in Syria, supporting no side.
The war in Syria is in large part a sectarian Sunni/Shia conflict with Arab politics added.

You try to blame Israel for all the problems in the region.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 05:38 AM

"No it is not."
Israel is very much a part of the worldwide disaffection of Muslms with it's treatment of the Palestinian people and it's aims to set up yet another monotheistic state.
It is the cause of a potential flood of refugees from Gaza
It has attempted to interfere with the deal with Iran.
It's attempts to close the War Crimes courts in order to get itself off the hook for its own war crimes and atrocities will leave the world without a means to try war criminals if it is successful.
It's nuclear capability makes in a threat to world peace.
How long have you got
Silly little man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:46 AM

Refugees from Gaza, none.
Refugees from Israel and all the "occupied" territories, none.
From Syria millions, fleeing from Muslims not Jews.

Israel is utterly irrelevant to the war is Syria.
Why try to invoke blame where there is none?
Why use the issue of the Syrian conflict as just another platform to attack Israel which plays no part in any of it?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM

"...if Assad returns to office...." The point is, he's in office. Saying no kind of negotiations can take place so long as that is true is a guarantee that the civil war will continue indefinitely.

If there is a way of enabling genuine elections, including the refugees, a way out can be found. Russia has indicated that that is what it wants to see.

Sitting back and sulking is likely to mean that the Assad regime, with Russian help, is going to succeed in crushing the opposition, including the parts of it which are genuinely democratic and non-sectarian.

The idea that all this comes from Assad, and that without everything will be rosy is as realistic as the similar noitions that were sold to people about Gaddafi, and Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 07:02 AM

"Refugees from Gaza, none."
It has been predicted that if Gaza is not rebuilt after last year's terrorist attacks by Israel, it will be uninhabitable within five years.
If Israel continues its expansionist land grabs, that will also be the case in the occupied territories.
The constant humiliation and mistreatment of Arabs within Israel itself will have the same results - refugees - you ain't seen nuffin' yet!!
"The point is, he's in office"
Quite - and we are witnessing the result of that daily - from slaughter of civilians to chemical weapons attacks
There is no way of guaranteeing genuine elections with him in power - particularly as he has Russia's full support.
Unless the West adopts an ethical stance and somehow, if the U.N. becomes involved a blood bath is inevitable - laregely aimed at non combatant Syrians (perhaps it's time to consider the withdrawing of veto rights to states like Russia and the U.S., who have used it to back terrorism).
Anything less is appeasement to terrorism ans war criminality.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 08:52 AM

Israel is very much a part of the worldwide disaffection of Muslms with it's treatment of the Palestinian people.....

Muslim disaffection is with the existence of Israel and the existence of Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:23 PM

"Muslim disaffection is with the existence of Israel and the existence of Jews"
As Ben Gurion remarked to the "obsure" Namhum Goldmann, who, according to the Virtual Jewish Library,
"In addition to his Zionist work, Goldmann championed other Jewish interests. Indeed, Goldmann never felt that a Jewish state would answer the needs of all Jews, and on the contrary, a strong Diaspora was always a reality, if not an ideal. In 1936, he helped organize the World Jewish Congress, and was the first chairman of its executive board":

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:34 PM

Funny how that quote contradicts all the authenticated quotes of BG, so why is that the only one you seize on?
Whoever Goldmann was, it is one person's recollection of something said years earlier that no-one else can remember or corroborate.

It shows how pathetically weak your case is, and the absence of any real, actual evidence supporting it, that you make so much of this highly dubious quote.

Here is a genuine, authenticated Ben Gurion quote that contradicts the dubious one completely,

"Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
Written statement (1920), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai (1985), Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, Oxford University Press."

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:49 PM

"Funny how that quote contradicts all the authenticated quotes of BG, so why is that the only one you seize on?"
Because it sums up the facts - that Beg Gurion was aware of the fact that they were seizing Arab lands and was also aware that there would inevitably be repercussions.
It is a clear admittance of the facts as he understood them and at no time did he withdraw his remarks.
Following regimes not only kept that land, but they seized even more - I have little that Ben Gurion and his colleagues would be horrified to see what has happened to Israel in the hands of the right-wing thugs that were to follow - especially in the light of what had happened to the Jews at the hands of the Nazis.
As one Jewish lady in Manchester, whose family perished in the camps, once said to me, "Never again - not to anybody".
I have no argument with the pioneers of the State of Israel - they did what they had to do at the time (mostly), but I don't believe for one minute they would condone the State thuggery that is now modern Israel - none of my Jewish friend have.
You have Ben Gurion's statement, pur and simple - no fake, no hidden meaning, no claims "in an obscure book by an obscure author" - that is what he said.
Ben Gurion may not have wanted to " touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them" - but those who followed him are a different breed altogether - they have betrayed the dream of Israel and debased it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:55 PM

You have Ben Gurion's statement, pur and simple - no fake, no hidden meaning, no claims "in an obscure book by an obscure author" - that is what he said.

Do we?
All we have to go on is something on page 99 of some bloke's memoir that no-one else ever heard BG say, and which is contradicted by everything that he is actually known to have said.

But you have to cling to it because you have NOTHING ELSE!
Right Jim?

Beg Gurion was aware of the fact that they were seizing Arab lands

He was not because they were not.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

Another thread in the shitter thanks to the dynamic duo.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

MGM·Lion - PM
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:41 PM

Whose country, leveller? At the time of the main Jewish 'occupation', 1890-1940, it was first off part of the Ottoman Empire. The land on which settlements, towns, cities, were established was acquired entirely by purchase from its legitimate owners ~~ presumably mainly Turks, with no objections raised by the overall authority, the Ottoman government, until 1917; when the Turks, Germany's allies in WW1, were expelled by British forces under General Allenby, who put in place a military administration until, after the war, the internationally authorised body the League of Nations gave a Mandate to govern the territory to the British government; which lasted until the withdrawal of the British and the proclamation of the State of Israel in 1948. During the Mandate, purchase and settlement of land continued. Obviously many Arab villages, whose country, NB, it had never been in any sort of political or governmental sense, were less than friendly to their new Jewish neighbours; tho this was by no means universally the case, as many such benefits as more modern agricultural methods to the joint benefit of both communities occurred. And there were of course the well-known problems of 3-way conflicts of interest, leading to hostility, repression, refusal of landing rights for refugees from European persecution leading to terrorist outbreaks and so on. Of all this I am sure you are aware - I realise I am simplifying a complex situation but am confident you will recognise what I mean here.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:23 PM

"Another thread in the shitter thanks to the dynamic duo."
nO IT ISN'T -Israel is part of what's happening in the Middle East problems - feel free to agree, disagree, or go on with your own opinions and ignore us - nothing stopping you, nor is anybody telling you what to post.
No idea what Mikes posting means - is he one of your qualified historian or what?
Nobody expected the Arab population to up sticks and piss of in irder to make room for a Jewish State - rather l
As for "nothing else - we have massacre after massacre to bear out what en Gurion had to say - thanks very much
If you've nothing sane to add - done here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:48 PM

Yeah #, this is like that finale from a Mel Brooks movie where a donnybrook on one film set spills over into another and another...

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 04:42 PM

In Carroll's world view every conflict is the fault of the Jews. He's a sick man.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:29 PM

"In Carroll's world view every conflict is the fault of the Jews"
I'll happily give a thousand pounds to any charity of your choice for every time you can show I have blamed "the Jews" for anything.
You, on the other hand Bruce, have blamed The Jews for every atroc#ity and war crime committed by the Israeli regime, contrary to the definition accepted by every Jewish organisation on the planety
At the same time, Keith has dismissed one of the founding activists who helped set up the Jewish State and is accepted as a leading figure in the furtherance of by Israel and Jewish organisations throughout the world as an "unknown" liar.
My case rests as to who are the Antisemites here..
Over and out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:36 PM

Your obsessivness betrays you.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:38 PM

obsessiveness

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 12:58 AM

Carroll: "Your pearl of wisdom re oligarchies v nationalists is missing an essential; piece - that of the fanatical God-botherers who have taken advantage of the situation - it is they who offer the most immediate threat at present, and they who have escalated the conflict into an international one."

Have you EVER considered this??....Perhaps those 'fanatical God-botherers' have been taken advantage of BY the global corporate oligarchy???....or is that to much of a stretch for you myopic view of the mid-east???

Carroll: "If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel."

Neither would Adolf Hitler....so you're in like-company!

You really should get over your flagrantly, out front disdain for Israel...the only reasonably close Democracy over there!...but see, the 'global corporate oligarchy', of which anti-Israeli bias you spout, doesn't give a rat's ass about any of the reasons you drivel on about....but they'll use it...the reason that they are 'not so happy' with Israel, is because their sense of nationalism is stronger than caving to the interests of the global corporate oligarchy's control, and it's demands. If that doesn't make sense to you, it's because you are blocked....but what the hell...you did it to yourself!
...and then expect everybody you feel who identifies with 'socialism', should agree with your VERY narrow view, and share your blindness.....blind to everything you COULD see, if it wasn't for your myopic, whole, wide angle view.
Just give it some thought..you may wish to re-examine both your mindset, your sources, and their agendas....of which you are just a mental and emotional casualty!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:02 AM

Typo correction:.......and then expect everybody you feel who identifies with 'socialism', should agree with your VERY narrow view, and share your blindness.....blind to everything you COULD see, if it wasn't for your myopic, whole, wide angle view."

Should read: "...and then expect everybody you feel who identifies with 'socialism', should agree with your VERY narrow view, and share your blindness.....blind to everything you COULD see, if it wasn't for your myopic, LESS THAN whole, wide angle view.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Tunisia
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:17 AM

Don't discount Israel

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:51 AM

Absolutely!!....If Israel's national interest of surviving as a nation, causes them to 'do what they HAVE To' to survive, they could, and perhaps will, turn their mid-east enemies into toast!...and the desert sands into glass...and that kind of independent thinking causes the global corporate oligarchy to consider THEIR interests threatened.
Not too hard to figure out.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 03:57 AM

"Have you EVER considered this??"
Don't patronise me- we've already got one too many of those.
"the only reasonably close Democracy over there!"
Yeah sure - setting up an apartheid State at gunpoint - ethnic cleansing the Arabs from the area in order to create a monotheistic state - very democratic, I'm sure!!
If to do what they have to means them doing what they are doing, it has s.f.a. to do with democracy of any shape or form - it's about as democratic as your Southern States before emancipation - democracy (of a sort) for some, oppression and slavery for others - not how I understand the term.
Shouldn't forget that it's not that long ago that Israel was attempting to sell South Africa nuclear weapons - now that's a thought to go to bed with at night - a mono-religion nuclear state in The Middle East and a white supremist state, similarly equipped in Africa - "and I say to myself, what a wonderful world" - not the inheritance I would like to leave those who come after me.
"Don't discount Israel"
I don't (if you are referring to me) - a religion-led State, with expansionist, monotheistic aims (and actions) and nuclear weapons - you could hardly miss it, could you.
In the long term, Israel poses just as much of a threat to world peace and stability as does Isis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:37 AM

You've GOT TO BE kidding me!

For the most part, your post is right off track, so why even comment to it...but there is one thing, you said toward the end, that clearly demonstrates what I posted to you previously....now take your myopic blinders off, for just a moment...just a moment..it won't hurt, I promise you..OK.....You posted: (In response to Tunisia's post, "Don't discount Israel")
"I don't (if you are referring to me) - a religion-led State, with expansionist, monotheistic aims (and actions) and nuclear weapons - you could hardly miss it, could you."

"Religion" is literally, 'a way of life', usually as on a 'path to God' WHATEVER YOUR GOD MAY BE!!....SO, to some people money, power, and control are the God they serve RIGHT???

Your response can refer to the global corporate/global bankers as well as Israel....BUT the borders and alliances of the above are a 'little less visible', than how you view the countries(including your own) that YOU identify as being a nation. To some, they welcome it, hoping to prosper with it...to others, they see this as a threat to their national identity and sovereignty.

BTW, to some, politics is their religion, others, an ideology which serves them, so they feel justified to manipulate consensuses through organized political parties....don't get bit....(but there are 'snake bite' kits).

Open your eyes....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:47 AM

"now take your myopic blinders off, for just a moment...just a moment..it won't hurt"
You're at it again - take a pill and start again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:07 AM

What's the matter?...Did your 'God' get insulted by defacing it's idol...IE. your opinion??

Or do you normally strain at a gnat, but swallow a camel?

...oh, and one more little observation, that you might find of value..you're making an ass of yourself in public...(no offense intended)...you know, like if you're going to go on stage, and your assistant checks and makes sure that your zipper is zipped up...stuff like that..

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:23 AM

Come back when you've taken your medication - really can't handle a tuppence who thinks he's a thruppence this early before breakfast
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:09 AM

These are the people who, it is being suggested, should have a hand in running Syria. - from this morning's Times.
Jim Carroll

ASSAD REGIME EXTORTING MILLIONS FROM DESPERATE FAMILIES OF 'THE DISAPPEARED'
Syria
Tom Coghlan Beirut
The Assad regime has made more than 65,000 people "disappear" since 2011 and is collecting millions of pounds from selling information about their fate to relatives, a report claims.
Amnesty International describes the Syrian government campaign of disappearance as a crime against humanity that is on a "vast scale and chillingly orchestrated". It says that families of missing persons are deliberately left with no official sources of information. Many are sucked into an "insidious black market" where supposed middle¬men with connections to the security services hawk information.
The Times spoke to families who had spent tens or even hundreds of thou¬sands of pounds on bribes for information, sometimes having to sell property and other assets.
Some reports claimed that the regime benefited directly from this money. The bribes had become a big part of the economy, one Syrian human rights activist said. A lawyer from Damascus told Amnesty that the bribes were "a cash cow for the regime".
A human rights worker in Syria said that many government militias ran detention facilities as a semi-official source of funding, charging for the release of prisoners or for stopping prisoners being transferred to the custody of one of the feared government intelligence agencies.
"There are two unofficial detention facilities in my town, " the aid worker said. "They have the authority to dis¬appear people and to sell them. They are used as tools to extract money. "
One former Damascus-based lawyer said that many of his fellow lawyers offered information as a sideline. "The mediator can be a lawyer, a security officer or any person who has links to security branches, " Michael Shammas, who recently moved to Beirut, said. "Millions of Syrian pounds are paid to the security officers and brokers every month. So many people had to pay tens of thousands of dollars but got no information or were told false information about their children's destiny. "
The Syrian Network for Human Rights said that it had documented more than 65, 116 disappearances since 2011, including 3, 879 children.
In January last year a Syrian police defector who had worked as a forensics photographer delivered to western investigators post-mortem photographs of about 11,000 men who had died under torture in Syrian prisons.
Relatives of the missing said that they were left helpless. "I am stuck in the middle, unable to look back or move forward, " said the wife of Mohammad Issam Zaghloul, a lawyer who was abducted in October 2012. "I can't build any future without him. I am in despair, but I have to keep going for the kids. "

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 12:32 PM

Well, I'm glad to you that you finally got back to the topic of Syria, instead of using this thread to bash Israel(as usual)...that being said, it's almost interesting to see that you can 'copy and paste', in lieu of thinking.
We ALL know that there are severely oppressed people in Syria..the question of, 'US boots on the ground' in Syria' is addressing 'who' is backing 'who', and 'why'? Address THAT......(which I have been, scroll back and take a 'look-see')....and you can plainly see that 'socialism' has nothing really to do with it...HOWEVER, the global corporate oligarchy does, and they are/will using socialist thinking to further their agenda....but don't get your knickers in a twist...they are using the 'Conservative' mind-set to do the same thing...under the guise of supporting those same people. Putin is somewhat a 'bump in the road', to the oligarchy, because his interests in restoring the former Soviet Union, is a bit of a nationalistic threat, being as it is putting his nation first, just as Israel is...in front of the oligarchy's agenda.
...oh, and BTW, BOTH the Bush and Clinton camps are on the side of the oligarchy..BOTH of them..got it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:00 PM

"Well, I'm glad to you that you finally got back to the topic of Syria, instead of using this thread to bash Israel(as usual"
You cant resist the arrogance - can you?
Israel is very much a part of the problems of the Middle East - your country is aware of this and has used its veto over a hundred times, largely to keep it out of the International criminal court - Kink Oil rules O.K.
Another pill is in order, methinks!!
Jim Carroll