BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 08:17 AM

More or less how David Beg Gurion described the State of Israel - built on stolen land, but chosen by God to do what they did

He did not say any such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 08:39 AM

Yes he did Keith - you've been given it and you said (without evidence) that it was a fake.
Not going to waste any more time on atrocity deniers like yourself - you want to show us that the Israeli regime are goodies, explain the massacres and atrocities - "they said they didn't do nuffin'" doesn't hack it - we saw the pictures of last years' massacres and destruction on tele - pictures really don't tell lies - not like atrocity deniers anyway.
Now go away and talk to David Irving - he might be able to help you polish up your act.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 09:03 AM

Let's have a rousing chorus, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 09:09 AM

Carroll, have you tried mood stabilizers to manage your anger and hatred. Perhaps a low dose of something like Seroquel maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 01:44 PM

Against an enemy like ISIS there is no alternative.

The Syrian regime aided by Russian and American air power is the only possible way of liquidating them.

America must get its personnel out of the way in double quick time.

As Sanity says, where are the moderate rebels? are they the same "moderates" who murdered Gaddafi in cold blood and reduced Libya to a jungle.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 02:44 PM

Yes he did Keith - you've been given it and you said (without evidence) that it was a fake.

You claimed it was said in an interview.
It was not.
One person in a book written years later claimed to remember him saying it, but there is no-one else in the whole world who corroborates it.

You claim it, so you should provide evidence that he really said it.
Good luck with that.

Your reliance on such apocryphal "quotes" shows how hopelessly weak your case is.

Why would he say they had stolen the land?
The UN gave it to them nearly 70 years ago!

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:05 PM

The refugees ghave fled fripon the war, not specifically from Assad. If a negotiated peace can include a guarantee of free elections, properly monitoored, with the refugees having votes, that could ensure a safer envirobment allowing people to return home.
............

In no way did the UN "give" Israel most of the territory it hold on to today.

In any case, if the UN were to "give" Hertfordshire to, say, exiled Syrians, to set up a new country, would you regard that as a fair title of ownership? Palestine didn't belong to the UN, any more than it belonged to Britain when the Balfour Declaration was issued.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:13 PM

"The refugees ghave fled fripon the war, "
The protests showd that Assad's terror was not going to stop and his response, particularly Homs showed the lengths he was prepared to got to to crush opposition.
Please don't get him off the hook and make him less of a monstar than he was - he is fighting his own people - the ones who fought for better conditions and an end to his terror.
He is a war criminal and if he is let off the hook he will continue with his slaughter - simple as that.
Piss off Keith - if you have any proof that Ben Gurion's QUOTE is a fake - please produce it - or somebody who
has even claimed it to be a fake - apart from yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:26 PM

- if you have any proof that Ben Gurion's QUOTE is a fake - please produce it -

I have proof that the quote originated in a book written years later, the author claiming to remember it being said but with no supporting evidence or corroboration from anyone else that it was ever said by anyone.
Fake or genuine, the quote is his understanding of the Palestinian view and not his own, so what point are you making with it anyway?

The authenticity is questioned by many.
Google "ben gurion stolen land"

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 06:04 PM

It's not a question of letting Assad off the hook. He's not on the hook. He,s carrying out a vicious campaign, in which enormous numbers of innocent civilians are being killed, in the same way as the British did in the last war, the Americans did in Vietnam and both have done in Iraq.

There are any number of people I'd love to see on trial for war crimes - but acting realistically to end the war in Syria has to be the priority, and if that means accepting that Assad is not giing to be put on trial at this time,, that's what has to be done.

It may indeed be true that the opposition includes freedom-loving, democracy-minded anti-sectarians. But it also includes some who are none of those things. The news today carried images of civilian women and children Alawites in metal cages being taken through the streets to be used as human shields in rebel held areas. And that wasn't in Isis controlled tterritory.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 07:15 PM

The problem here is that a few people seem to think that "protesters" in the Middle East and North Africa walk about with little boards around their necks saying "Assad Out", "No more of this sort of thing"

There may be a handful of genuine protesters but that handful must be raving mad.....The regime thinks they are terrorists and the terrorists think they are useful idiots who will certainly be butchered after the regime falls.
Syria, Iraq, Libya, are not like dear old England, they are awash with arms and inhabited by people who are willing to exterminate everyone who refuses to accept their views.

These countries can only be run by hard dictators, they may evolve into democracy.....but not as we know it "Jim".

Remove the dictators and you have chaos....how many times must it happen before that fact sinks into the Mudcat perception.
It's about time the cold war was forgotten and some co operation shown between the great powers...

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 03:21 AM

"It's not a question of letting Assad off the hook."
Yes you are Mac - and I am afraid what will happen if Assad is allowed to stay, what you are saying here will be used to leave him in charge "war is war and bad things happen".
Assad was carrying out atrocities against his people and committing against humanity long before the war began - part of the reasons for the protests was the torture chambers, the arrest without trial of opponents, the mass murders and the lack of democracy.
The West were aware of this and (Britain particularly) treated him as a friend and refused to do anything about it - he was a mass murderer long before he became a war criminal.
Why try the Nazis once peace had been achieved?
"Remove the dictators and you have chaos."
May thanks for confirming a long-held suspicion Ake.
Dictatorship is fascism pure and simple - the forcible imposition of the wishes of the State over that of the people.
The idea that some people are not fit for democracy and need a dictator to rule them adds a racist tinge to the argument.
Wow - you've finally said what you mean - thanks!!
Thank god that "fact" will never sink into the perception of most people on Mudcat - nor, hopefully - into that of the majority of the people of the planet.
People of my generation can think of six million reasons why it never will.
"I have proof that the quote originated in a book written years later"
Congratulations Keith - you are the only person on this planet to have claimed this quote to have been a fake - that's got to be a first for Mudcat!!
Not even the Israeli regime has bothered to do that - their response was to place Ben Gurion's papers out of reach of the general public.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 04:58 AM

Congratulations Keith - you are the only person on this planet to have claimed this quote to have been a fake - that's got to be a first for Mudcat!!

Jim, you first claimed (just weeks ago on world order thread) that the quote appeared in Haaretz.
When challenged, you said he made it in an interview.
Challenged again, and you admitted it only appeared, unauthenticated, in an obscure book by an obscure author.

Google "ben gurion stolen land" as I suggested and you will see I am not alone in questioning it.

Here is a genuine, authenticated Ben Gurion quote,

"Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
Written statement (1920), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai (1985), Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, Oxford University Press."

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:09 AM

" that the quote appeared in Haaretz."
It did. it was reported to have been made to during an interview with Nahum Goldmann - a Zionist supporter of Israel's cause whose Zionist credentials are impeccable, and recalled in his memoirs - certainly not "obscure"
Nahum_Goldmann
The only challenge are blog by unknown bloggers
Any chance you will piss off now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:23 AM

It did. it was reported to have been made.....
Really?
Google can not find it.

This is where YOU finally admitted it came form.
"As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99."

(I would call that obscure)

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:31 AM

Jim, for someone who purports to be a socialist, you really seem to have no grasp of reality.


A real socialist never tries to fool himself. We must be realists first and foremost.

From an economic standpoint a socialist must realise and explain that in changing the economic system, many people are going to be financially worse off......people like you, the soft left, are in denial, no one believes a word you say.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:52 AM

"Jim, for someone who purports to be a socialist, you really seem to have no grasp of reality."
As a socialist, I wouldn't suggest that fascists are in any way acceptable as rulers of countries in a million years - as you just have - National Socialists maybe, nothing to do with my socialism - obviously yours.
I was brought up in a world where socialists died fighting fascism (my father risked his life and was wounded and imprisoned for doing so - others took to the streets to drive the fascist Blackshirts back into their rat-holes).
Your socialism is not mine and I would find it difficult to give an example of other socialists with your outlook on life
For "realist" read "expediency to suit Western interests".
"Google can not find it."
You can't find it, you mean, even though you have been give reference to it.
No comment on the "obscure book by the obscure author - thought not!!
You have who Goldmann is (quoted first in Haaretz), you have the quote.
If you can't do better than this 'running round like a headless chicken to appease Israel's terrorism' act, piss of and let the adults discuss the subject in hand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:01 AM

Jim, on 6th October you claimed Ben Gurion wrote it.
Next day you claimed he said it in a CBS interview.
Later that same day you admitted for the first time that it only appeared, unauthenticated, in that obscure memoir.

The obscure author died in 1982 aged 87.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:06 AM

You can't find it, you mean, even though you have been give reference to it.

What reference?
Now you are only claiming that some obscure person told Haaretz about it anyway!
What happened to your claims that Ben Gurion actually said or wrote that quote?

Just some obscure person claiming to remember it from some obscure time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:18 AM

Nope - direct quote from Goldmann's statement in Haretz along with comment that Ben Gurion's documents had been removed from public access (contrary to Israeli constitutional law - indicating that he said much more that "wasn't suitable for the public gaze)
Go away - I have no more interest in you or your appeasement to State terrorism and excuses fir it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:07 AM

So all we have is Goldman(?)'s uncorroborated statement that BG once said it, and only your word that it appeared anywhere except once in a memoir and not BG's.

So why did you first try to claim that BG wrote it?
Why did you then try to claim that BG said it in an interview?
You make stuff up all the time Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:14 AM

direct quote from Goldmann's statement in Haretz

When did you see this quote Jim.
He died in 1982 aged 87.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 10:07 AM

I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 10:58 AM

"I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread"
Only Goofus so far as I can see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 12:54 PM

Notice too how Israel keeps getting attacked even though it is irrelevant to the war in Syria.
That seems to be the only Mid East issue they want to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

Jim, when did you see the Haaretz report of a quote from someone called Goldmann dead for over thirty years, and why did you claim that BG had made the quote himself in writing, and then that BG said it himself in an interview, when we only have Goldmann's (who he?)assertion that he ever said it at all?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:19 PM

"someone called Goldmann dead for over thirty years,"
SOMEONE NAMED GOLDMANN
GOLDMANN AGAIN - ARE YOU NOT TIRED OF MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF
Please go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 02:31 PM

Lots of people have a wiki page and an obit.
Do not pretend you had heard of him before.
You claimed that BG had made the quote in writing, and then that he made it in an interview, before you finally acknowledged that someone called Goldmann was the only person in the world who supposedly heard him say it.

You then claimed to have seen a report in Haaretz of Goldmann claiming to have heard BG say it, but Goldmann has been dead for thirty three years!!

So, when did you see this report Jim??

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 02:44 PM

We've moved passed this, I'm afraid, but for Raparee and Dave, here is an article that punctures the story about Mossadegh that every seems to have embraced. Myth of the American Coup

For one thing, though he was, at one time, quite popular with the Iranian people, by the time he was overthrown in 1953, he was amazingly unpopular. After nationalizing the oil fields, he failed to renegotiate the oil contracts with Great Britain--the economy tanked, and, rather than risk having his party lose control, he suspended parliamentary elections and usurped control of the military, and drove the Shah (who, whatever you may think of him, was the legal and constitutional ruler of Iran) into exile.

Also, although he was Prime Minister, it wasn't by popular election--the Iranian Parliament had the constitutional authority to select it's own leader, subject to the Shah's approval. The only public election he ever won was the one that place him in the parliament....As to the CIA coup...well, just read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:06 PM

If Assad had been overthrown and was in custody, and it was decided not to put him in the dock, that would be letting him off the hook. But he hasn't been overthrown, and he's not in custody.

I''m not suggesting he shouldn't be put on trial. I'm saying that negotiations should be without preconditions. That includes insisting that before anything can be done Assad will be removed or his removal will have been agreed by the Syrian government.

Peace in Vietnam wasn't put on hold until Nixon annd Kissinger and co were put on trial. Sometimes you have to accept it that justice might neve be done. Most times in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:13 PM

Nixon and Kissinger never went on trial (although they should have for their secret war in Cambodia and Nixon for his part in the Watergate cover up) but some of their henchman did and a number of them wound up with prison terms.

The American people would never sit still for an alliance with a bloodthirsty thug like Assad or even Putin. We do have a sad history in the previous century of propping up corrupt tyrants but Assad's atrocities are just too well documented.

For my part I think we should get out of the middle east and Afghanistan post haste. 15 years of war is more than enough. At this point we're just inspiring more enmity towards us and boosting the recruiting efforts of various terrorist organizations. The only involvement we should have over there is to provide humanitarian aid. Time to let Israel shift for itself and to move away from our dependency on fossil fuel.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:52 PM

Time to let Israel shift for itself....

What about the neighbouring Muslim countries to which the US gives vastly more aid - should they also be let to shift for themselves or is it just Israel that you have a problem with?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:05 PM

Let's give ONLY humanitarian aid to whoever our government deems worthy. To me Israel should certainly be considered.

The idea that constant war will achieve peace is insane.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:16 PM

"I'm saying that negotiations should be without preconditions."
Been here Mac.
If Assad is allowed to hold office he will never relinquish that position and the Syrian people will suffer as a consequence.
Assad will never agree to being put on trial at a later date (the outcome of him doing so is too much of a foregone conclusion).
You seem to be doing a Keith here and givig yourself all the options - whatever happened to your suggestion that his crimes are no worse than those carried out by any other country at war?
I go along with Gillymor - "no alliance with a bloodthirsty thug2 sums it up perfectly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 09:00 PM

"If Assad is allowed to retain office" - who do you think is in a position to allow him or prevent him in the absence of some kind of negotiation process?

But what in effect you are proposing, Jim, is that Assad will be able to retain office. Unless you imagine that somehow the opposition, will be able to win this war. The most effective parts of that opposition being Isis and the Al Qaeda afiliated sections.

Negotiations can only start with all preconditions dropped. Once they are under way, stuff like setting up an electoral process, and finding ways to safeguard it, following a ceasefire, could be thrashed out. Including even some way of ensuring that even if a majority of people want Assad, he'd step down to give the new regime a chance.

If a few years on the Syrian's follow the example of the Serbians and hand him over for trial like Milosevic, fine. But that's the only way it can happen.

In fact Assad's crimes are comparable to those carried out by other countries. America's body count of Vietnamese was a great deal higher than Assad's. It is likely that the same may be true in Iraq. As I said, I'd dearly like to have seen those responsible tried for war crimes, but that's how it goes.

As for "no alliance with a bloodthirst thug", that is a good principle, and of course a complete break with our traditional practice.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:55 AM

Talking of "bloodthirsty thugs"...America is about to vote for a politician who supported the invasion of Iraq and Libya.

It's up to the Syrian people to decide who governs them.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 03:03 AM

akenaton: "I'm really surprised that our American friends have little interest in this thread?"

Jim Carroll: "Only Goofus so far as I can see."

Maybe they would, if any of the morons would address the SUBJECT of thread. You guys are all bickering over bullshit, and who said what when, and who is more wrong with their quotes!!

I gives me reason to think that a lot of you don't have a clue, so in lieu of a clue, you try to sound like you have fired up opinion based on nothing!!.......and ramble on, as if you have some dignity at stake!!!

Oh yeah,....and who cares what 'real socialists'(?) are SUPPOSED to think about it through the 'socialist accepted indoctrination'. How about looking at it the way it is, instead of trying to stuff it in some stupid box...If you're having problems with that, consider a wider view, than through the myopic 'socialist' filter...(or at least what you THINK the socialist consciousness is) instead of reality!

Try this(if it doesn't hurt your heads to much to think)....the global corporate oligarchy vs the the countries of a 'nationalistic' focus....sort out who is who (or really who), and it will start to make sense....keep in mind that Russia, China, India and Iran have a defense pact......and another though...the global oligarchy really has no need to give a shit about America one way or the other...unless they need to rent their military.....OK...go figure it out!

Happy Cogitations!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 03:55 AM

"It's up to the Syrian people to decide who governs them."
There's never been a chance of that happening (that's what started all the bloodletting in the first place) and the possibility of there being any significant change will be virtually non-existent if Assad returns to office.
I wonder of those here who say he should be part of the peace have thought through what will happen to the million or so refugees should a peace be brokered which includes him.
The West is anxious to get them off our backs, so their solution is obvious - send them back to where they came from - to what exactly???
Doesn't bear thinking about.
Goofus:
Israel is a side-issue to this, but it is an issue - what happens there is very much a part of what is happening in the Middle East in general and stands to be a source of greater trouble if things continue as they are heading, including adding to the already critical flow of refugees should predictions be correct and Palestine become uninhabitable in five years if the Israeli devastation isn't put right.
As for 'socialism' - I raised it when the desirability of dictatorship was mooted by our resident N.S.er - maybe you don't think that worth responding to - I do.
Your pearl of wisdom re oligarchies v nationalists is missing an essential; piece - that of the fanatical God-botherers who have taken advantage of the situation - it is they who offer the most immediate threat at present, and they who have escalated the conflict into an international one.
Maybe your definitive pronouncements aren't that definitive after all.
Perhaps if you stopped talking down to people offered some real ideas - must be difficult from the hole in the ground you appear to occupy!
Happy pontificating.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 04:40 AM

Israel is a side-issue to this, but it is an issue

No it is not.
Israel has played no part in the events in Syria, supporting no side.
The war in Syria is in large part a sectarian Sunni/Shia conflict with Arab politics added.

You try to blame Israel for all the problems in the region.
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 05:38 AM

"No it is not."
Israel is very much a part of the worldwide disaffection of Muslms with it's treatment of the Palestinian people and it's aims to set up yet another monotheistic state.
It is the cause of a potential flood of refugees from Gaza
It has attempted to interfere with the deal with Iran.
It's attempts to close the War Crimes courts in order to get itself off the hook for its own war crimes and atrocities will leave the world without a means to try war criminals if it is successful.
It's nuclear capability makes in a threat to world peace.
How long have you got
Silly little man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:46 AM

Refugees from Gaza, none.
Refugees from Israel and all the "occupied" territories, none.
From Syria millions, fleeing from Muslims not Jews.

Israel is utterly irrelevant to the war is Syria.
Why try to invoke blame where there is none?
Why use the issue of the Syrian conflict as just another platform to attack Israel which plays no part in any of it?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM

"...if Assad returns to office...." The point is, he's in office. Saying no kind of negotiations can take place so long as that is true is a guarantee that the civil war will continue indefinitely.

If there is a way of enabling genuine elections, including the refugees, a way out can be found. Russia has indicated that that is what it wants to see.

Sitting back and sulking is likely to mean that the Assad regime, with Russian help, is going to succeed in crushing the opposition, including the parts of it which are genuinely democratic and non-sectarian.

The idea that all this comes from Assad, and that without everything will be rosy is as realistic as the similar noitions that were sold to people about Gaddafi, and Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 07:02 AM

"Refugees from Gaza, none."
It has been predicted that if Gaza is not rebuilt after last year's terrorist attacks by Israel, it will be uninhabitable within five years.
If Israel continues its expansionist land grabs, that will also be the case in the occupied territories.
The constant humiliation and mistreatment of Arabs within Israel itself will have the same results - refugees - you ain't seen nuffin' yet!!
"The point is, he's in office"
Quite - and we are witnessing the result of that daily - from slaughter of civilians to chemical weapons attacks
There is no way of guaranteeing genuine elections with him in power - particularly as he has Russia's full support.
Unless the West adopts an ethical stance and somehow, if the U.N. becomes involved a blood bath is inevitable - laregely aimed at non combatant Syrians (perhaps it's time to consider the withdrawing of veto rights to states like Russia and the U.S., who have used it to back terrorism).
Anything less is appeasement to terrorism ans war criminality.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 08:52 AM

Israel is very much a part of the worldwide disaffection of Muslms with it's treatment of the Palestinian people.....

Muslim disaffection is with the existence of Israel and the existence of Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:23 PM

"Muslim disaffection is with the existence of Israel and the existence of Jews"
As Ben Gurion remarked to the "obsure" Namhum Goldmann, who, according to the Virtual Jewish Library,
"In addition to his Zionist work, Goldmann championed other Jewish interests. Indeed, Goldmann never felt that a Jewish state would answer the needs of all Jews, and on the contrary, a strong Diaspora was always a reality, if not an ideal. In 1936, he helped organize the World Jewish Congress, and was the first chairman of its executive board":

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:34 PM

Funny how that quote contradicts all the authenticated quotes of BG, so why is that the only one you seize on?
Whoever Goldmann was, it is one person's recollection of something said years earlier that no-one else can remember or corroborate.

It shows how pathetically weak your case is, and the absence of any real, actual evidence supporting it, that you make so much of this highly dubious quote.

Here is a genuine, authenticated Ben Gurion quote that contradicts the dubious one completely,

"Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
Written statement (1920), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai (1985), Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, Oxford University Press."

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:49 PM

"Funny how that quote contradicts all the authenticated quotes of BG, so why is that the only one you seize on?"
Because it sums up the facts - that Beg Gurion was aware of the fact that they were seizing Arab lands and was also aware that there would inevitably be repercussions.
It is a clear admittance of the facts as he understood them and at no time did he withdraw his remarks.
Following regimes not only kept that land, but they seized even more - I have little that Ben Gurion and his colleagues would be horrified to see what has happened to Israel in the hands of the right-wing thugs that were to follow - especially in the light of what had happened to the Jews at the hands of the Nazis.
As one Jewish lady in Manchester, whose family perished in the camps, once said to me, "Never again - not to anybody".
I have no argument with the pioneers of the State of Israel - they did what they had to do at the time (mostly), but I don't believe for one minute they would condone the State thuggery that is now modern Israel - none of my Jewish friend have.
You have Ben Gurion's statement, pur and simple - no fake, no hidden meaning, no claims "in an obscure book by an obscure author" - that is what he said.
Ben Gurion may not have wanted to " touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them" - but those who followed him are a different breed altogether - they have betrayed the dream of Israel and debased it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:55 PM

You have Ben Gurion's statement, pur and simple - no fake, no hidden meaning, no claims "in an obscure book by an obscure author" - that is what he said.

Do we?
All we have to go on is something on page 99 of some bloke's memoir that no-one else ever heard BG say, and which is contradicted by everything that he is actually known to have said.

But you have to cling to it because you have NOTHING ELSE!
Right Jim?

Beg Gurion was aware of the fact that they were seizing Arab lands

He was not because they were not.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

Another thread in the shitter thanks to the dynamic duo.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

MGM·Lion - PM
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:41 PM

Whose country, leveller? At the time of the main Jewish 'occupation', 1890-1940, it was first off part of the Ottoman Empire. The land on which settlements, towns, cities, were established was acquired entirely by purchase from its legitimate owners ~~ presumably mainly Turks, with no objections raised by the overall authority, the Ottoman government, until 1917; when the Turks, Germany's allies in WW1, were expelled by British forces under General Allenby, who put in place a military administration until, after the war, the internationally authorised body the League of Nations gave a Mandate to govern the territory to the British government; which lasted until the withdrawal of the British and the proclamation of the State of Israel in 1948. During the Mandate, purchase and settlement of land continued. Obviously many Arab villages, whose country, NB, it had never been in any sort of political or governmental sense, were less than friendly to their new Jewish neighbours; tho this was by no means universally the case, as many such benefits as more modern agricultural methods to the joint benefit of both communities occurred. And there were of course the well-known problems of 3-way conflicts of interest, leading to hostility, repression, refusal of landing rights for refugees from European persecution leading to terrorist outbreaks and so on. Of all this I am sure you are aware - I realise I am simplifying a complex situation but am confident you will recognise what I mean here.