BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 12:11 PM

It's almost never the dog's fault. It's stupid owners. I'd go with the ultimatum. (I love dogs, and pretty much dislike stupid owners who refuse to take responsibility, and pretty much make their dog's bad behavior somebody else's problem.)

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 12:09 PM

This might be an entirely different story for a dog at a dinner party in Korea.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 12:02 PM

That's right, Susan, the rights of animals always take precedent over the rights of humans.

Query: should the person "negotiate" before or after he or she is bitten?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 11:47 AM

PS to the comment about fear-bites (and othe comments). Some of the same folks who evoke them are the same folks who abuse people violently out of their own fear.

Helping to retrain a fear-biting or fear-growling dog is a separate issue. No guest at my home would be welcome to attempt bribing or pepper-spraying my dog and would not be invited back. However Walmart et AL sell a spray one can spray on one's own clothes (or carry as a ponder on one's person that dogs and cats will avoid. (It is a helpful training aid we're using to break a cat-eating habit our rescue dog survived in the wild when other food was not available.)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 11:33 AM

OP, lacking italics via this fone I'm on, my opinion (remember you did ask for opinions, not votes) is inserted in line below in caps.

Please give me your opinions: Is it an unreasonable expectation to have my discomfort accommodated by the hosts, YES BECAUSE YOU KNOW OF THEIR DOG, AND.... or have they lost all sense of proportion regarding human vs. canine? NO (you may be overreacting/misinterpreting a social signal) THEY ARE SHARING WHERE THEY ARE AT WITH THIS CANINE AT THIS POINT IN ITS TRAINING (and their confidence as dog handlers), AND....

Now that they know more about your needs, however ungraciously you may have stated them, they can incorporate that knowledge into any future invites. Speaking JUST FOR ME, I would think long and hard whether to put someone who can't be trusted to negotiate-- instead of deliver ultimatums as your description sounded to me-- on any guest list.

Also, again speaking just for myself, my service dogs' skills always include discernment of aggressive people. My dogs have kept me out of quite a bit of danger by going off on ppl I might let too close otherwise. Sometimes a dog really does know best.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,bbc
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 11:11 PM

My son & daughter-in-law have 4 cats. 2 are shy, 1 is affectionate, & 1 scratches & bites me without provocation or warning. When I mentioned it, they just replied that "Yeah, he doesn't like some people." Now, I either meet them on the porch & we go out or they come to my (petless) place! I don't consider it ideal, but no other options to avoiding scratches & bites were offered.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:52 PM

Never mind the dogs, why are so many owners so aggressive?

Reminds me of the Kippers' demolition of the hunting song:

It was early one morning I was walking my dog
When the Duke of Wellington we did meet,
Bonzo and Rover they slobbered him all over
While Dido nearly knocked him off his feet

There was Dido Fido Bonzo and Rex....


Well don't worry Sir I said, they won't hurt you it's just
Their way of saying they like you a lot,
But he took my little dog and he kicked it in the bog
Saying that's my way of saying I do not

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: LilyFestre
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:42 PM

Just said goodnight to our holiday company, some of which are nervous around our big dog. We loved her up good,made sure to get in play and potty time, put her favorite blanket and a nice big bone and shut her in another room for a bit. If you are going to host an event, I think it's the proper thing to do. If it would be for more than a couple hours, we would board her for the day. Seems a happy medium could be found. If I were you, I wouldn't have gone to a place with an aggressive dog either. Hope you enjoyed your day despite this.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,34
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 01:32 PM

There are people who are generally afraid of dogs, usually because of being attacked when very young as I was. I have no problem with most dogs as soon as I can get to know them. I like dogs. I have a dog that is a member of the family.

There are some dogs who respond aggressively to smelling fear on a person. We call them "fear biters". These dogs can be perfectly sweet with everyone else. If you have a fear biter, it is your responsibility to keep it away from people who fear unknown and/or aggressive-acting dogs. With a fear biter, no amount of getting to know the dog works. They remain violent, probably in a feedback loop with the person who experiences increased fear because of the dog's behavior.

One of the unpleasant parts of this is the number of people who assume that the dog's reaction to the dog-fearing person means there is something untrustworthy in the person.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 01:24 PM

I'm pleased to hear that REAL courtesy and rationality somehow kicked in and that you're now able to go. ENJOY!

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 01:23 PM

yes that does sound like the canine equivalent of a fully loaded AK47...

Best be safe than sorry, and wear full padded 'sports protection' and kevlar underpants in case it jumps and nips... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 12:54 PM

Update: The BFF's husband has stepped in and said he'd keep the dog outside while we're there, so I'm going after all. Thanksgiving is saved!

pfr, I asked and was told that the dog is an American bulldog/Rhodesian ridgeback mix. He's big, with a head the size of a melon.

Thank you to all who contributed to the survey! I hope you have a lovely holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 09:14 AM

I had to go to one of my wife's xmas parties with her work colleagues 15 years ago..

and I've managed to escape going again ever since...

Don't even need to bother with excuses anymore...

The wife is a social creature..
which means I'll have enough free evenings at home on my own
to get through a Clint Eastwood "Man with no name" trilogy blu-ray boxset,
and with any luck the "Band of Brothers"and "The Pacific" boxsets...

I love xmas party season.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 08:54 AM

I wouldn't go.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 07:48 AM

Sounds like guest wants expand the discussion to upsetting a steady marriage.... I hope he is only jesting!          I,m with mike 2 , not like cats, but cats like me !    Not enough though to keep me away.            Seriously though, I would just say , thanks , but I really got a thing about dogs, happy thanksgiving.    And then enjoy some me time while hopefully the wife has a nice evening socialising.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 07:17 AM

Is this more than just a 'one-off'? If so consider a change of wife.

She accepted her friend's invite and is taking the family with her rather than making thanksgiving with her own family. She is prepared to place that ahead of your being decidedly uncomfortable. 'Get over it' being only a bit better than 'F* you, I have decided' imo.

Possibilities
1) She was aware of your feelings regarding the dog, but went ahead anyway (see para 2) or maybe

2) She wasn't aware of your feelings, despite being your wife and presumably present at the previous incident (see para 2)

3) Her friend means more to her than you do.

Do you and your wife perhaps need more (or better) communications?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: MikeL2
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 06:12 AM

Hi


Surely the answer is easy. If you are invited you have the perfect right to refuse. It would be etiquette to give a valid reason. If you don't like dogs , say so. The hosts may accommodate your difficulty.

This thread is getting out of proportion IMHO. It could be worse they could have a smoking dog....lol. I used to work where they had these.



Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Janie
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 05:39 AM

What Joe said. Neither your friend nor you are in the wrong imo. It was fine for you to say under what condition you could accept the invitation. It was fine for them to say "Sorry, we aren't willing to meet that condition." It was fine for you to then decline the invitation.

Sorry your wife is mad at you. Hope all of you have a great day, however and with whomever you spend it.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Nov 15 - 03:12 AM

I thought it was solicitors, not dogs that bite the hand that feeds them?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 09:16 PM

I am very fond of dogs (but I don't want any more, it's too much hassle getting them looked after if I want to go to a festival or whatever). But under NO circumstances should they be allowed on the furniture (apart from perhaps their designated chair although a dog-bed on the floor is better), or in the room where people are eating, or indeed to beg.

MichaelR is quite right.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 08:25 PM

So let's see now. You go to a house that has three huge tellies. Your meal is endured in front of these tellies. You never complain about the fact that three huge tellies are blasting out during your meal. Yet your hosts don't complain on the return bout when you don't have the telly on. Why, that is Incredibly kind of them!

Alternatively, are you barking mad?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 08:12 PM

When his family comes to us he never complains about no tv

I don't think anyoe has ever been mauled by a TV.

Dead Easy!

By the way, your brother in law sounds like a real jackass - paying more attention to the TV than his guests is the mark of a real pillock.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 08:07 PM

You don't understand. Quite so.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 07:59 PM

I don' understand why anyone would accept an invitation to house where there are dogs if they don' t like dogs.....and then complain about the dog!
My brother in law has three huge tvs When we are invited there we are sat in front of these, even during the meal ! I would never dream of saying that I would only visit if he turned the buggery things off. We go and try to make the best of it. When his family comes to us he never complains about no tv. Mutual respect and good manners. Dead easy !

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 07:56 PM

I don' understand why anyone would accept an invitation to house where there are dogs if they don' t like dogs.....and then complain about the dog!
My brother in law has three huge yellows. When we are invited there we are sat in front of these, even during the meal ! I would never dream of saying that I would only visit if he turned the buggery things off. We go and try to make the best of it. When his family comes to us he never complains about no tv. Mutual respect and good manners. Dead easy !

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 07:13 PM

Just to give us some more perspective...

when you say 'Cujo'.. where exactly is this vicious mutt on a scale from Chihuahua -> Doberman... ??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Charmion
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 07:12 PM

Oh, crazywoman, the ditzy wife is more than aware that the beagle in question is horribly untrained, and she giggles at me and says -- and I quote -- "My bad!"

Now, when I am under their roof, I cower on the sofa when the fusillade of barking gets too much, and I push the beagle firmly to the floor when he climbs onto the cushion beside me and tries to get into my lap. When others glower, I say, "I'm a cat person." I'm not harsh, but I'm not kidding either.

My brother had a very Type A dog, a lurcher who was probably half greyhound and half Doberman. Shelley had her own chair in the sitting room, but she was not permitted on the sofa or to "drape" herself on humans; a dominant beast, she had to be kept aware of her place in the family -- i.e., not in charge. This policy kept her from menacing strangers both at home and in the street, no small matter as she was territorial and protective. But training her and maintaining discipline took effort. Alas, too many people are unwilling to go to the trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 07:07 PM

"If a dog will not come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience."
― Woodrow Wilson

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:54 PM

Yep. That's a very common experience whenever I go to anyone's house with a dog. The owner typically has no control over the aggressive, slathering cur at all. It's disgusting, and these people ought to be ashamed of themselves. The happiest dogs are well-trained dogs, and most owners haven't got a bloody clue.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:41 PM

It surprises me (although it probably shouldn't) that this topic generates such controversy here, almost as do religion and Israel/Palestine. BTW, these folks are pretty good friends of ours, I like them just fine, and we've had the BFF staying at our house for weeks when her school schedule required her to be in town.

"Thank you very much for the nice invitation. I would love your company at this special time. The dog makes me uncomfortable. Is there some way you can keep it away from me?" saulgoldie

As should be apparent from my OP, that is exactly what I said.

"it is incredibly rude of you to insist that the hosts meet your demands." - HiLo

Is it "incredibly rude" just to ask the question? See above.

"your statement that the dog has shown aggressive behavior is not very convincing." - crazy little woman

You weren't there, so what do you base that on? The dog practically went Cujo on me. It lunged at me, and the BFF's husband had trouble holding it back. I found the experience quite disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 04:43 PM

Charmion, tell your friend about the veterinarian's advice which I posted upthread. That beagle needs to be trained.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 01:57 PM

A black ball will be appearing in Michaelr's mail shortly.

One less of them, one more bottle of beer for me. (And a gravy bone for Fido.)

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

HiLo-

and this particular one has shown aggressive behavior toward me in the past.

You mean, "guest rudely suggests he'd rather not be bitten and/or constantly hassled for the duration of his visit" don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Charmion
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:38 PM

I sympathise with michaelr.

My old college buddy has a ditzy wife who takes in strays of both the feline and canine varieties. I see these people about once or twice a year, and lately I find this experience almost intolerable because of a noisy, aggressive beagle that charges me on entry and barks incessantly the whole time I'm there. If that weren't enough (I rather think it should be), the house is always a maelstrom of muddle and it reeks of cats' box.

For the sake of auld lang syne, I continue to visit Animal House on occasions such as Boxing Day and my old buddy's birthday, but I do not expect my husband to join me. I make excuses and am even prepared to lie to maintain the veneer of convention that keeps me from telling off the ditzy wife and thus wrecking a friendship that dates back to 1980.

Sometimes being bourgeois is hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:32 PM

The hosts did not choose the dog over the guest. They have a dog, invitee doesn't like dogs, so he rudely suggests the host meet his expectations. He's just rude. Just decline, end of it.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 12:26 PM

Greg, too often hosts have to invite guests they can't stand for the sake of politeness and family/social diplomacy.

Too true. But is that the case in the OP? We don't know. Plus its hardly polite or diplomatic, in any case, for the hosts to choose a dog over a guest.

Bloated ego guests who consider themselves god's gift to dinner parties are a right royal pain in the arse.

As above.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:46 AM

"Thankfully I am a miserable aging bastard who refuses to socialise at all these days . . ."

Trust me, I do understand (and ditto).

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:36 AM

Greg, too often hosts have to invite guests they can't stand for the sake of politeness and family/social diplomacy.

Bloated ego guests who consider themselves god's gift to dinner parties are a right royal pain in the arse.

If only even dogs could be more choosy who they are condemned to dine with.


Thankfully I am a miserable aging bastard who refuses to socialise at all these days,
unless under extreme duress when the wife makes it threateningly clear
what the consequences will be if I don't attend her niece's wedding [for rare example].. 😜

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 11:18 AM

I'd go with the pepper spray or one of the sonic dog deterrants. Perhaps a water pistol filled with ammonia.

However , it is incredibly rude of you

Its incredibly rude of the hosts to gve more consideration to their animal than to a GUEST THEY INVITED.

Another example of thef**ked-up mindset that the "rights" of animals take precedence over those of humans.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 10:01 AM

A family and its pet dog function as a unit. The dog has a place in the pecking order, it has its privileges and it has its duties. For example, when there is a big gathering and strangers come, the dog has to vet (no pun intended) the strangers and protect the babies. This is on top of its usual watchdog and dropped-food duties.

A dog which is used to being with the family will whine if put in a room or bark nonstop if put outside. It doesn't understand what it has done wrong. Believe me, nobody wants to hear a dog barking for several hours.

Frankly, Michaelr, your statement that the dog has shown aggressive behavior is not very convincing. I suggest that when you enter the house, you have a little treat for the dog in your pocket. At the door, let the dog see you and its owners being calm and friendly. Say "Hello puppy", offer the treat, and then ignore him.

Do not stare at the dog, watching for signs of an attack. Dogs consider staring an act of aggression.
=======
I read a book by a vet, and he said that some dogs play a game called "I hate guests." A dog which is aggressive to a guest (growling or barking) should be put in a room for little while, then allowed back. If the aggression recurs, the dog goes back in the room. A dog hates to be excluded from a party, and in a few times, he will figure it out.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:24 AM

HI

<" I don't care much for cats. I don't know why, I just don't.">

This goes for me too. I don't hate them I just don't like them being round me. Trouble is cats seem to like me. They often come and sit near me - some on occasions even jump into my lap. I can deal with it but I don't like it.

I don't put off invitations because I don't like cats.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:16 AM

Hi

<" noisy, slobbering, germ-ridden shitting machines. "I'm with the dog." >

Describes many humans too...!!!!

The real answer to this dilemma is that the dog should be well trained and be used to having "strange humans" around.
We had had several dogs over the years and all were well trained and caused no problems for guests. The guests were often not as well trained as the dogs...lol.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:15 AM

I have a large, very friendly, very hairy Old English Sheep Dog^*. I would have no hesitation putting him in a different room if I had visitors who didn't like dogs. We normally ask if he can at least say hello, on the lead if necessary. That's normally enough to stop him barking for attention once he is shut out. Even I find it too much when he is lying right under my feet when I am trying to eat my dinner and he is often put out into the hall until the end of the meal, visitors or not. A good host should try and accommodate his/her guests. After all, it's likely to be only for a couple of hours.

As far as "the dog wouldn't understand" goes, the dog has to understand its place which is below all humans in the household including (especially) the smallest child.


^*Bobtail for those in the US (though he still has his full tail) - Dulux dog for most people in the UK

DC

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 06:03 AM

"Thank you very much for the nice invitation. I would love your company at this special time. The dog makes me uncomfortable. Is there some way you can keep it away from me?"

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 05:28 AM

Alternatively go ................... and take a pepper spray!!

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 05:27 AM

Unfortunately Michael you have committed a sin. It's a well known fact that everybody likes dogs and by not doing so you have transgressed. All dog owners know that everyone likes dogs, you're weird because you don't. It's all your fault.

How many times have I come across this. One of my local pubs is like bloody Crufts some days. Personally I dislike the bloody things and have scars to prove it. (Crufts is a HUGE dog show in the UK, not huge dogs just a lot of them although some are huge)

Being bitten in the face at the age of 5 by a black Labrador that was bigger than me must have dome something to colour my judgement. Being bitten several times since has done nothing to change that attitude.

If they can't put the dog in another room for the duration they are probably not worth wasting your time with anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 05:10 AM

"I know she's your best friend, but for heaven's sake did you have to invite her husband as well ?
There's something about that man that makes our dog so nervous and puts him on edge for hours whenever he's anywhere near him !!!

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 04:12 AM

Go this once but tell them you have an allergy to dogs. If the dog comes near you, sneeze all over the turkey. You won't have to turn the invitation down next year.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 03:47 AM

People who don't like dogs aren't the sort to invite round in the first place.

"I find your flock wallpaper offensive. Kindly remove it before I grace your doorstep with my presence!" Followed by "Really! I have never been so insulted!" as you tell them to fuck off.

As ever, answers are in the middle. Of course if anybody is nervous around dogs they should be put in a room / garden whatever. But if it's merely not liking them? The dog is part of the family they visit. If you don't like the family, don't visit. They will be just as happy as you, trust me.

I don't care much for cats. I don't know why, I just don't. It wouldn't even begin to occur to me to tell a cat owner to keep their pet away from me though. My wife is allergic to them (and some breeds of dog for that matter) but if we visit friends with them, she takes an antihistamine tablet first. Sorted.

Subject: RE: BS: T-Day Trouble: A Survey
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Nov 15 - 03:30 AM

When invited to someone's home, abide by their rules , when at home. Do as you like. It isn't about priorities (dogs vs people) it is about plain old fashioned good manners ....if you don,t like the lifestyle of the hosts, have the good graces to decline the invitation , the shut up about it.