BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?

Subject: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 05:24 PM

Too early to tell, but it sure looks like it:

At least 4 officers, multiple civilians injured in ongoing active shooter situation at Planned Parenthood

Colorado Springs police spokeswoman says, "We still have a gunman that is out there."

By Jesse Paul, Jordan Steffen and John Ingold, The Denver Post


Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 07:34 PM

What has this to do with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 07:43 PM

We shall see. Greg has reported this without making any assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 07:55 PM

Greg is making an assertion simply by his posting and the assertion is (as usual) that there is equivalence with Christian and Islamist terrorism. Here is a list of Islamist terrorism attacks since 1982. Now show us a list of Christian terrorist attacks from the same period.


    Lebanon November 11, 1982 – Tyre headquarters bombings. 91 dead. 55 injured.[citation needed]....

---

Quotation deleted - it was an unattributed list of Islamist terrorist attacks from Wikipedia, that covers several screens. The entire text can be found here (click) -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 07:59 PM

I don't suppose it has anything to do with the teachings of Jesus, Ebor. I did not see anything in the article that said the assailant identified as Christian either.   But Greg did put a ? Mark on the end, so we cannot assume this is an anti Christian OP can we........

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:01 PM

No, we can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:03 PM

I guess you haven't been paying much attention to Greg F's posts then.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:28 PM

A bit premature to say anything about this. In a statement, Planned Parenthood said it was not yet clear "if Planned Parenthood was in fact the target of this attack". (Reuters)

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 08:57 PM

Greg is making an assertion simply by his posting and the assertion is (as usual) that there is equivalence with Christian and Islamist terrorism.

Horseshit. I never asserted - and do not assert- any such "equivalence".

You could have saved all the time spent with that cut-n-paste garbage. But I suppose it was cathartic for you, Beardie or Beardie-Clone, even though it recapitulates your usual assertion that the Israeli government is totally blameless, whatever it may get up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:07 PM



(CNN)[Breaking news alert, posted at 8:30 p.m. ET Friday]
A police officer shot during Friday's siege at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs has died, the Colorado Fraternal Order of Police said on Twitter.

Updated at 8:34 p.m.:
At least 11 people, including five police officers, were injured when a gunman attacked a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado on Friday. Officials noted the number could rise as they secure and process the crime scene, while the Colorado Attorney General's office tweeted that there was a "tragic loss of life." Police captured the suspected gunman at 4:52 p.m. local time; his identity remains unknown.

The Colorado Springs clinic is not the first Planned Parenthood facility to come under attack this year. On October 1, an unknown arsonist threw an ignited container of gasoline inside one of the organization's centers in Southern California. The Southern Poverty Law Center identified three similar incidents at Planned Parenthood facilities in Illinois, Louisiana, and Washington in recent months. In September, the FBI warned law-enforcement agencies throughout the country about "lone offenders using tactics of arsons and threats all of which are typical of the pro-life extremist movement."

NB: The "pro-life extremest movement" is overwhelmingly comprised of those who claim to be Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 09:31 PM

Oh Guest, I pay plenty of attention to Greg's posts. At times I feel humbled. He can say in one line something that takes me twenty lines. Apart from Dave the Gnome, who lives uncomfortably close to my place of origin so I have to be nice to him( ;-)), Greg is the man I would buy a pint or six for any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 10:19 PM

The leaders of Planned Parenthood are wisely withholding judgment. They have nothing to gain by making a premature statement. Most likely, the assailant is an anti-abortion, right-wing, Christian extremist - but we don't know that for sure. Still, the right-wing Christians, even the non-violent ones, have targeted Planned Parenthood unfairly for decades. They completely ignore all the good that Planned Parenthood does for women in need in the United States. I frequently speak out in Catholic circles in support of the good work done by Planned Parenthood, but I know I'm taking a risk every time I say something favorable about Planned Parenthood.

Please note that there are also Christians who have a very favorable opinion of Planned Parenthood. I'm one of them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 15 - 10:39 PM

your usual assertion that the Israeli government is totally blameless,

Ha, ha, ha.....bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:03 AM

I'm sure Greg is making the point that Islamist is removed from Islam too, but try telling that to people who are gullible enough to mistrust people based on their heritage. The words purposely sound similar.

Mind you, these US terrorists get their justification from distorting religious views on when a chemical reaction becomes one of Jesus's sunbeams.

Terrorists all the same.

A pity because away from criminals, debate on the important topic of abortion can never be had whilst ever idiots think their invisible friend has a valid point to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:43 AM

This incident has about as much to do with Jesus as Islamist terrorism has to do with Allah - nothing whatsoever - both are cases of extremists using religion as an excuse for their extremism, and crass arguments like "your terrorism is nastier than my terrorism" doesn't hack it.
All religions, by their very nature, are open to abuse, and all the major religions have a track record of terrorism, abuse and persecution going back centuries - Christianity is one of the front runners in the Abuse Stakes historically.
The fact that some religious fanatics are less abusive than others at the present time is immaterial - they all hang there like a Sword of Damocles waiting to be misused by one bunch of nutters or another - don't turn your back on any of them!
One thing is certain - religion and politics is a toxic mix, as what is happening today is proving every time we open a newspaper or switch on the news.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Bobby
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:36 AM

Should ISIS execute all those Christian bigots?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 07:02 AM

any 'christians' around who are urging western powere to drop yet more bombs on possibly the most distressed and desperate innocent people on the planet , in the hope of killing a few terrorists, should really have a think about what their religion means. if they are prepared to tolerate the killing of syrian people are they any better than those (falsely) doing it in the name of another religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:38 AM

what?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:55 AM

Jim said
"All religions, by their very nature, are open to abuse, and all the major religions have a track record of terrorism, abuse and persecution going back centuries - Christianity is one of the front runners in the Abuse Stakes historically."

Some religions certainly. But Buddhism?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:59 AM

Look at what Buddhist governments have been doing to the Rohingya lately. Or the full-on genocide conducted by the Buddhist regime in Sri Lanka against the Tamil minority.

This was entirely in character with what Buddhism has done any time it was in power. Ashoka was as bloodthirsty as any other Indian king.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:00 AM

Still, the right-wing Christians, even the non-violent ones, have targeted Planned Parenthood unfairly for decades.

More than that, Carly Fiorina and the rest of the Republican presidential hopefuls (and their fellow-reptiles in Congress) most assuredly have blood on their hands for whipping up hatred by inventing and supporting the current "de-fund Planned Parenthood" campaign based on bogus videos, lies and bullshit, to gain the political support of right-wing lunatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:37 AM

"Some religions certainly. But Buddhism?"
I have had the same regard for Buddhists as I have for Quakers (without accepting their religious beliefs) up to the Myanmar anti-Muslim riots 2013
Since then, I came to the opinion that most religions are capable of intolerance when in the wrong hands.
"Should ISIS execute all those Christian bigots?"
Wonder what promoted this extraordinary suggestion!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM

Colorado Springs : a playground for pro-life, pro-gun, evangelical christians

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:29 AM

Attorneys and barristers are for ever "asserting" and they are only allowed to ask questions. & they will plead rights. Yea right!

Whatever the motive, the effect is to ally "terrorist" with "christian".

"Planned Parenthood" sounds like there is religion hovering around but who knows? Here in the UK we marvel at the "killing to preserve life" scenario, but we have our cranks and bigots on many issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:07 PM

The Guardian report is shocking in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:49 PM

...but we have our cranks and bigots on many issues.

But at least they don't have firearms...

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:06 PM

I still haven't seen any information on the shooter. I wonder who he was.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:10 PM

'Nothing with him was very cognitive': Details emerge on suspect in Colorado Planned Parenthood killing.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 04:58 PM

Best to wait.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 05:57 PM

Wait for what? For his reasoning? The guy is obviously a nut case. Here's some stuff on him from the NY Times

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:10 PM

NBC News
Nov 28 2015, 5:33 pm ET

In one statement, made after the suspect was taken in for questioning, Dear said "no more baby parts" in reference to Planned Parenthood, according to two law enforcement sources with knowledge of the case.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:51 PM

Well, maybe he was just mental or maybe he was a manic anti-abortionist. Time may tell. But there are broader issues, at least two. First, that Colorado seems like bandit country apropos of your gun laws. Second, an abortion clinic has had to turn itself into a fortress. Where's the outrage, yanks, please?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 06:58 PM

There's nothing in the minor incidents in the Times article "Guest" linked to to indicate he's a "nut case" or "mental", any more than a good segment of the population is. I've had neighbors like him & I suspect most people have as well.

What IS apparent is that he was inspired by the lies perpetrated by Carly Fiorina and the rest of the Republican Pcs Of S.

Hope thay're happy

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:47 PM

My money is with GregF on this one-I find it a bit annoying that people are trying to discourage the obvious conclusion. The FBI recently sent out warnings that Planned Parenthood Clinics were in danger of terrorist attack, and This is the fifth in assaults on PP clinics since the fraudulent "Baby Parts" video was released this Summer--and it is more likely than not connected--it would be perilous to ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:31 PM

"Planned Parenthood Shooting Wasn't the First — And It Won't Be the Last.
The GOP's odious anti-Planned Parenthood rhetoric, done solely for political points, has real-world consequences."

Interesting article Here

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:42 PM

Steve, I'm not sure that outrage is the game to play in this one, despite the fact that there certainly is good cause for outrage. The gun promoters and the anti-abortion people and other right-wingers play that game all the time here in the U.S., to the point where "outrage" has lost its credibility. We get outrage all the time from FoxNews. We have no room for more.

Quiet, steady, rational wisdom - expressed consistently - would seem to be a more effective response. And we do that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 11:16 PM

He is quoted as stating that the [unproven] videos about baby parts [aka fetal tissue] motivated his acts. So far there are two dead [including one peace officer who responded to the call out of an active shooting incident] in this attack.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:03 AM

Steve is right in his comment about 'Best to Wait'. There's a lot we don't know. For example, none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian. Maybe he is, maybe not. But making the link in the headline until we know is presumptuous. Equally, bringing in the GOP (who I don't support at all, by the way), when he seems not to be affliated with any party is too early.

Let's wait for the hearings.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:26 AM

none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian

It's irrelevant whether he is or not. The ideology he's fighting for is one created and promoted by a Christian faction. He's one of their soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:34 AM

I don't think we know he's fighting for anything. The threadbare reports we have have say he had shown no interest in the topic beforehand and that he is not coherent now.

Now if the claim was that there were Christian groups that support this sort o action I'd agree, but point out that many Christian s oppose it and many more condemn such violence whatever their other views

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:47 AM

"Steve, I'm not sure that outrage is the game to play in this one, despite the fact that there certainly is good cause for outrage. The gun promoters and the anti-abortion people and other right-wingers play that game all the time here in the U.S., to the point where "outrage" has lost its credibility. We get outrage all the time from FoxNews. We have no room for more.

Quiet, steady, rational wisdom - expressed consistently - would seem to be a more effective response. And we do that."

Well yes, but have you got any evidence that this works? Have you read the Guardian piece? The approach isn't working at all well in Colorado by the looks of it. I'm afraid that, from here, it looks like your nation takes a rather weak-kneed approach to powerful lobby groups, whether they be evangelists, gun fanciers, anti-abortionists, big corporations or Israel supporters. The upshot is almost half the country not believing in evolution, gun crime and mass killings out of control, vulnerable women and medical staff under siege in clinics, the most polluting nation on earth per capita and a constant running sore in the Middle East. Not saying that similar issues don't pop up elsewhere.   They do. But from here it's hard to see exactly who's running your country.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:40 AM

none of the reports I've seen say he is a practicing Christian

You miss this report?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/us/robert-dear-suspect-in-colorado-killings-preferred-to-be-left-alone.html

The younger Mr. Dear was raised as a Baptist, Ms. Ross[his former wife] said in an interview in Goose Creek, S.C., where she now lives. He was religious but not a regular churchgoer, a believer but not one to harp on religion. "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover."

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 08:49 AM

You miss this report?
Yes. Or maybe it hadn't been published when I looked, but either way I hadn't seen it.

I would expect more information on background to come out over time like this. As I said above Maybe he is, maybe not. But making the link in the headline until we know is presumptuous.

We now have some anecdotal evidence he is and no doubt more will arrive. Even so, I still hold it was presumptuous, though there now is accumulating evidence the guess was right.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:32 AM

It's all fine to be beating around the bush and taking care being seen as not jumping to conclusions but I think Jack above is pretty much on the mark: it would seem obvious which parties created an atmosphere in which such an attack would seem justified to some.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:39 AM

It is the danger of 'it would seem obvious' that concerns me. Too many miscarriages of justice and outbreaks of violence arise because of what seems obvious. Evidence first, then action in my book. Once you have the evidence, it is a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 09:58 AM

Too many miscarriages of justice and outbreaks of violence arise because of what seems obvious.

What's obvious is that there are dead and wonded people, the attack was in fact directed at a Planned Parenthood office and the perp. said "no more body parts".

The perp's. ex wife's statement that "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover." would seem pretty conclusive to me - and she a reliable witness.

What sort of evidence would you have?

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:11 AM


What's obvious is that there are dead and wounded people, the attack was in fact directed at a Planned Parenthood office and the perp. said "no more body parts".

Agreed. He is a criminal and he is opposed to abortion. Not enough in that say he is a Christian ...


The perp's. ex wife's statement that "He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible," she said. "That's what he always said; he read it cover to cover to cover." would seem pretty conclusive to me - and she a reliable witness.

Now we have some evidence he is a Christian. As I said a post or two above, that was not in the articles I read when I made the post we are talking about, I accepted I hadn't read it and now have and that affects my opinion.

What sort of evidence would you have?
The sort of evidence we have now. Which was not around, as far as I can tell, when the thread was titled.

BUT I am still opposed to leaping to conclusions until such evidence - which we now have - is available.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:20 AM

"When the thread was titled", there was a penultimate question mark. You apparently missed that as well.

Subject: RE: BS:Planned Parenthood Shooter-Christian Terrorist?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 10:32 AM

No, I didn't miss the question mark. But as a few of the opening posts point out, that's not really a get-out, because you have made the association.

We could go through the same thing on the word 'terrorist' as well (and did the question mark qualify 'Christian' or 'terrorist'? Who can tell?) I don't think it helpful to call every shooter a terrorist, and although this guy seems to have swallowed the anti-abortion stuff, I have yet to see - and it may come, I can't read everything! - anything to suggest he was more than an individual acting alone.