BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 10:27 PM

Leeneia, Good point... However a GOOD sound man , should be more interested in clarity, NOT overloading the room with unnecessary volume.
If you're a player, who performs, I'd be REALLY picky of your sound engineers!
I am.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 11:40 AM

I think that there are two elements to making lyrics clear. First, the singer has to enunciate. Second, if the sound is cranked up so loud that it hits walls and bounces back into the incoming sound, the effect will be muddy.

Wait - there's a third element. People with one dialect have to make an effort to ensure that people speaking another dialect understand them. I'm not going to say how to do this because it's complicated. I remember getting a postcard from two Midwestern friends abroad, and it said, "Can't understand the Scots at all." There is no reason for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 11:36 AM

What people SHOULD keep in mind, is that a GOOD engineer, is an equal partner, just as the musicians are, and should be considered and paid as an equal to any of the band members. ..That being said, you can't expect an engineer to 'fix' a bad delivery of the music...though some can do wonders!
As far as, you can't understand the words', that has a LOT to do with the vocalists!!..and here is the rule, etched in stone: "The human voice is the only instrument on the planet that pronounces words, so for God's sake PRONOUNCE THE WORDS, and don't HIDE behind 'style'"...Hold only the vowels, and bite off the consonants!
I have insisted through the years, that musicians I play with should learn SOUND(engineering)...because when it's all said and done, WE ALL are working with SOUND!!...no matter how much 'pride' you take in your particular instrument, the bottom line is THE SOUND..and it is up to the individual player to deliver a CLEAN performance with expression...you can't blame a sound engineers to turn crap into a stellar performance...but as the expression goes, "A bad mechanic always blames his tools!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Rumncoke
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 04:12 PM

I always take ear defenders to any 'miked' event where I don't have control of the sound levels, with different filters for different frequencies in my pocket.

It is probably why I have the hearing I do, at my age.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 11:05 AM

Hi Richard

<" Maybe, as well as firearms, association football should be banned.">

Rather a drastic suggestion. Why not maybe try to get them to lower the sound levels??.

Strangely enough for me I don't have any problems with the sound at football nor rugby.

For me the worst examples of excess sounds are many of the soundtracks on TV films and dramas. I know that sound tracks can create more atmosphere but surely the music shouldn't play during the actual dialogue ?? For me many programmes are ruined by excessive use of background music.

cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 10:22 AM

"association football should be banned"

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 09:16 AM

Maybe, as well as firearms, association football should be banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 07:58 AM

At sporting events (e.g. a UK football match) the half time music is so loud you can't hear yourself speak. The crowd's age is varied from young to old yet the diddy DJ thinks the hoi polloi want to hear his personal favourites played at a million decibels.
All most folk want to do at the break is talk about the game, etc., so please Mr DJ, STFU.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 06:04 AM

Very few professional singers will tour without a sound system.

Singing with no pa puts a lot of strain on their voices and increases the chances of them problems with their voice/throat.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Stu
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 05:33 AM

"With three fiddles, a cello, flutes, whistles and pipes who needs a sound system at all? Unless they were playing in a stadium."

They were playing at Bridgewater Hall in Manchester, and I think amplification was needed as it's a fairly large auditorium and a great venue. Still, the mix was awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,punkfokrocker
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 04:59 AM

I've played one entirely unamplified acoustic 'skiffle' gig in the last 15 years.
A band consisting of stand up 'pub' piano, 2 acoustic guitars and singers
in a busy crowded L shaped art centre bar.

The room was packed with boozers, mostly standing in any available space between the few tables and bar.

The band was set up in the toe of the L where the piano was located,
no amps and speakers on order of the bar manager...

It was a completely futile waste of effort, time and money.

No one could hear us over the general bar noise and chatter
beyond the 2 or 3 tables immediately in front of us... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: JHW
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 04:42 AM

'who needs a sound system at all?'
Indeed I much prefer to hear a thoroughly live, unprocessed performance, performer to listener. eg Folk Music.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Dec 15 - 01:02 PM

With three fiddles, a cello, flutes, whistles and pipes who needs a sound system at all? Unless they were playing in a stadium.

A friend and I once did a concert at a theater in a small Nebraska town. It was the former movie palace turned into a live venue, seated perhaps 200 people. She played harp and I played guitar or recorder. We didn't need any amplification at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 09:07 PM

And although most of the sound work I have done has been for metal bands (over 60% I'd guess) the bands seemed to like the fact that I was always tweaking to keep the sound as good as I could get it. In a rock context I like to feel the kick drum and bass guitar. And the bands seemed to like that as well. But sometimes you come away still feeling unsatisfied, because do as you might it didn't sound or feel right. Sometimes it isn't the soundman's problem - I've twice seen awful hum problems (I was the soundman on one occasion and a different chap on the other) with incurable hum - probably down to dirty mains.

On another occasion the band switched jack leads - so as I was trying to turn up the banjo (I know, I know, but it was supposed to be audible) the fader marked "banjo" on the desk was for the melodeon - which the melodeon player had left sitting on a subwoofer. And they were not even my subwoofers!

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 08:56 PM

Funny, a post of mine got eaten. Terry, particularly in folk it can be very important to make sure the quieter bits do not get lost. I wasn't at the gig in question but my innate sympathy is with the soundman in the situation you describe.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 10:57 AM

"Well, Stu, it may not be that the bodhran was that loud. It may be that you have lost hearing in the high ranges where the flute plays."

You'd have to be deaf to loose so much hearing you can't hear a flute! I haven't lost all but the very, very top end of my hearing. I play with flutes and bodhrans on a weekly basis and understand the basics of mixing live music as I did it occasionally for my wife's jazz band. There were three fiddles, a cello, flutes, whistles and pipes at various times and without doubt the mix was terrible.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 10:24 AM

Just wondering - does what is selected at sound check in an empty venue get used as-is when the place is full of bodies ?

dedicated high class venues have been using seat material to mimic the absorbancy of the human body for years. Marquees and particularly dance tents offer a whole new dynamic that ensure it will never be perfect.

And the soundman's ears are habituated to what kind of response? Hence the criticism of Rock soundmen. Volume and stability for Rock, balance for Folk.
Even a soundman known for his folk work can (almost always is) too loud for my tastes. Hence I don't pay for concerts and wear earplugs often for dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 10:21 AM

Well, Stu, it may not be that the bodhran was that loud. It may be that you have lost hearing in the high ranges where the flute plays.

I went to a talk about tinnitus recently, and the audiologist said that tinnitus may be the brain's attempt to re-create what damaged nerve endings cannot tell it anymore. If you have suffered damage to the nerve hairs that transmit high frequencies, then you may get tinnitus and you can't hear the high sounds.

That is why it is so important not to blast people with loud sounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 15 - 10:13 AM

Since I have raging tinnitus I've stopped going to most gigs and always take my attenuating earplugs.

My big gripe is the obsession with bass that seems to have crept into all forms of music. Now I love a pounding bass as much as the next man but you don't need it when watching folk. I went to see The Chieftains once and all I could hear was Kevin Conneff's bodhran thwacking away endlessly whilst the rest of the group were reduced to backing; I couldn't hear Matt Molloy, I could hear an undampened bodhran. I left the gig crestfallen.

This happened a second time when a well-known and talented singer played locally and was backed by a really superb bodhran player. The problem was the bass was so high in the mix any balance was sacrificed for the booming bodhranic bass. It ruined the gig totally.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 12:00 PM

Yes, but volume is the most damaging. Even as an amateur sound man, my goal is to achieve a balanced sound, focusing on vocalists and soloists, blending the rest of the group in to a harmonious whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:30 AM

Everyone seems to equate rotten sound with being too loud. There are a lot more things that can and does go wrong than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 11:07 AM

As always, I'll recommend musician's ear plugs
which are inexpensive, reduce volume without significantly dulling sound quality

- and are ideal for audience members who are affected by perceivably loud PAs....

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 10:47 AM

In the last two months, I have been blasted by sound so loud that I actually screamed in pain and my hands flew to my ears. Both times it was done by amateurs who had no idea what they were doing - they were just fussing with knobs.

The pain I felt almost certainly meant that I had just lost more hearing.

Yet when I search on the web for basic advice for amateur sound men, I can't find a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 09:19 AM

Following advice from a sound man I try to sit just in front of the sound desk if I have a choice.

Usually I have heard the band on the radio or have a CD. Sometimes I feel I am getting a pretty good attempt at the mix that the band has on recordings. Often it bears no relation. That could be partially related to not being able to chose the volume, it could be that a live audience includes many that want something a bit more flashy than a CD buyer.

But often I suspect it's the sound man not knowing what the band wants to sounds like.

With sampling technology these days can't the desk record a sample so the band can wander round the room and say 'yes, something like that' and then the sound man adjust later for the presence of a load of people ?

Just wondering - does what is selected at sound check in an empty venue get used as-is when the place is full of bodies ?

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 07:17 AM

In a perfect world for performers, sound engineers, and audiences there would be sufficient time before a gig for effective sound checks...

This is an infrequent luxury at gigs, and rarely ever happens at festivals... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Nov 15 - 04:49 AM

The problem is that a LOT of concerts book 'Professional' Sound as a package , and too many sound men are only used to Rock and Pop bands

I recall seeing Martin Carthy , dolo , and pre built in pickups , working with a vocal and an instrument microphone . The 'not at all SOUND man' was constantly on both faders , so that the output from the speakers was totally flat - NO emphasis or variation at all

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Bert
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:01 PM

Then there is the, much more frequent, other side of the story. Where the sound guy is OK but the singer hasn't ever learned any microphone technique.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:47 PM

Well Bill, you get into the gig for free. We pay big mazumas.   If you screw up, we get to moan. That's life. You're not perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:16 PM

WHAT?

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:48 PM

Why is it whenever a sound engineer gets something wrong you always end up with a room full of experts?
Bill the sound (no pun intended)

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 02:28 PM

Some sound engineers need a kick in the woofers and tweeters.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:34 PM

"I thought all sound blokes were volunteers looking for free tickets by volunteering"

Most places that I know hire the engineer and kit as a single contract.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:15 PM

Acorn4 just beat me to it: I'm sure that is an issue. - deafness in sound engineers as well as musicians themselves.
I sat through one concert given by a group of big voice male a cappella singers: they could have filled that hall with sound without any PA at all. But tehy had a mike each and I had my fingers in my ears throughout!
As for not being able to make out all the words: not always the sound man's fault. If the singer mumbles his way through, under the mistaken impression that it sounds so sexy (not!), the poor sound man can't help him!

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 07:20 AM

Sounds like you had a lucky escape.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 06:31 AM

I remember a Four Men And A Dog gig at Kilkhampton, near Bude, many moons ago. We were sat quite close to the sound man, who had pole position in the centre slightly towards the back. We spent the first half completely unable to hear Gino Lupari's miked bodhran (love it or hate it, Gino's drumming was key to their sound). I spoke to the guy in the interval and he simply swept me aside. He knew best. Nothing changed. That was the first time in my life I'd complained about not hearing a bodhran, and was definitely the last!

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Acorn4
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:36 AM

I think perhaps part of the problem is that many sound engineers are deaf.

Occupational hazard.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: JHW
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 05:31 AM

The sound man is as important as any other member of the band. Years ago I went to a Blowzabella weekend and along with dance workshops etc. there was a Sound Man workshop, illuminating issues that I'd guess many a less sound man would dismiss or even not be aware of.
This month I went (first time) to a copycat band show (Eagles), in a theatre. Good performances and sound so good you didn't notice it. Wasn't too loud yet was perfectly clear.
The Sound Man was stood in our row of the balcony controlling the kit from a pad computer in his hand!
I wouldn't judge show sound by a clip on a computer. Perhaps one needs to get out more.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 04:05 AM

I got two tickets for Springsteen at Hampden Park a couple of years ago which were for the field. Shortly before the gig we then got the chance of another couple of tickets from friends who had to cancel at last moment and these were for the stand. We gave one of the original field tickets to my son's friend and the two lads were right up at the front. They came away thrilled by the concert. My wife and I were up in the stand and it was 3 and a half hours of music coming and going in waves. Now I hear it properly - now I don't etc etc. Sorry but these tickets are bloody expensive. The sound should be set so that everyone who bought tickets can hear properly. If that can't be done then go for smaller venues!

Saying that at least Brucie was good when you could hear it. We have a friend who saw Dylan several weeks ago. Sound was seemingly ok but she still needed her colleague to tell her what song he was singing half the time. I don't know if she was exaggerating but she said his vocal was so bad that she couldn't even make out what Blowin In The Wind was

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Kampervan
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 03:33 AM

I agree with Gnu.

The sound balance on some professional recordings is not good and the question is not 'could you do any better', it is 'Could a different, competent sound engineer do any better?

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Nov 15 - 01:37 AM

Guest You are not welcome here Gnu may be a wildebeest but he is a named member of long standing I notice that none of those who seem to enjoy sniping at him contribute to threads supporting people in times of trouble.

Mudcat was a community of different people yes there were spats but on the whole people were more supportive of each other or more accepting of differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:57 PM

Mr. GNU....

It appears, that within this thread....
you are coroided
And your booty exploded


Please troll somewhere else

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 08:20 PM

Your comment was pretty abrasive, Gnu. Given that a lot of YouTube clips are either amateur recordings or homemade copies of professional recordings, you may have been off the mark when you blamed it on sound engineer. We don't know whether you're right or not, tho, because you haven't told us what you were listening to. So...

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 07:30 PM

we have the same problem here, sound bleed in festivals, sound desk owners who go EH? when someone (usually older) suggests turning the sound down, LOUD background music in venues between live sets ...

I know a couple of older sound desk owners who contract or volunteer at festivals & their sound is so much better, but most are young ...

I thought all sound blokes were volunteers looking for free tickets by volunteering, until I recently heard that some offer their services as a tender, I think only at large festivals.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 01:12 PM

how about a youtube link to the annoying concert, so we can assess what might be the real cause of the sound problem .

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: gnu
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:42 PM

"If you can do better..."??? I didn't produce the video. A professional sound engineer should only lower the vocals if the singers can't sing. Besides, I didn't attack anyone personally so, as it was a general comment or rant, "if you can do better" is illogical, inane and at best rude... you know, like trolling. You never miss a chance to be an asshole, garg. At least you are consistent.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 12:12 PM

the simple solution to 'loud' PAs at gigs is to always carry inexpensive musicians volume attenuating earplugs in your pocket
just in case required.

There is however no no known none violent solution for loudmouthed arsholes crowded round you in an audience... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 10:55 AM

"The louder they make it the louder the idiots at the back talk."
And they become so habituated to talking through a performance that they do it at totally acoustic gigs as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 10:02 AM

If you value sound quality, don't listen to Classic FM. All their output is put through crude compression. The loud bits are brash and strident and the soft bits are almost as loud. A flute can sound as loud as a symphony orchestra. There's even occasional digital clipping. I don't know how they manage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 09:44 AM

I agree, gnu.

I once asked a sound man if he could tell how many decibels he puts out, and he said he couldn't.   It seems to me that every soundboard should have a gauge for that.

I carry ear protection wherever I go.

Subject: RE: BS: Some sound engineers need a kick in the
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Nov 15 - 03:49 AM

the reason I don't go to concerts is because the sound engineer usually has it too loud. They do this because they want it that way.
The louder they make it the louder the idiots at the back talk. The other fallacy is "habituation" sound engineers (like us all) habituate to a given norm, once we are exposed to anything else (like the proper way) we struggle a bit. Ever listened to AM radio lately?

Having said that I am off to see Topette tonight, they are billed as a dance band (Andy Cutting so it WILL be good) and you can be sure we will be dancing wherever there is enough room to bourrée.
Mazurka anyone?