BS: Onward Christian Soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:16 AM

Oh come off it Steve Shaw, it's metaphorical thoughout. I don't like the metaphor, but metaphor it is.

I acknowledge that Jerry Falwell Jr may not regard the "Satan's host" part as metaphorical. But he didn't bring the hymn up. The OP did.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:54 AM

What's a thoughout when it's at 'ome?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:10 AM

throughout. Nothing else to say then?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:54 AM

" It's just that atheists tend not to have pedestals they can fall off just before Sunday lunch."

I'm not so sure about that. There are some atheists - and this is true for other groups as well - that assume an air of moral superiority that is every bit as lofty as some Christians. In general humans love to belong to groups so they can look down on other groups. It makes them feel better about the positions they have assumed. That goes for Christians and atheists alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:12 AM

Quite right, and true of some on here , IMO, but not naming anyone.....

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:23 AM

Good observation, Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:34 AM

I meant to add that most of the atheists I've known are not nearly so forthcoming with their beliefs (or lack of beliefs) as the evangelical christians I've known.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:40 AM

I know a few atheists who adopt an air, quite correctly, of intellectual superiority over those of faith, but that isn't hard, as there's nothing intellectual about believing in superstitions. But moral superiority? I think not. We're an incredibly humble lot who know that morality has nothing to do with either religion or atheism. As for Sunday morning pedestals and falling off them, well the Queen goes to church on Sunday but she still doesn't do as Jesus said and give all her stuff away. In fact, most of it is locked away where the moths consumeth and the thieves would, if they could getteth past security, breaketh in and stealeth. And General Franco went to communion every day in between giving orders to murder thousands of people. And don't get me started on priests eyeing up the altar boys even before the mass has finished. By the way, I can't possibly look down on OTHER groups because I'm not in a group.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:48 PM

Oh please, you know nothing of what you talk about. I hold my nose as always

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

Hey Gilly, I almost gave you a fishing shout, I was in the keys last weekend

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:09 PM

Nobody cares what anyone believes or doesn't, Obama gun proposal makes sense to even those of us with firearms. That's what is important. Wack jobs tellinguuntrained students to arm themselves doesn't work

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:31 PM

"I know a few atheists who adopt an air, quite correctly, of intellectual superiority over those of faith, but that isn't hard, as there's nothing intellectual about believing in superstitions."

Thanks for proving my point for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:39 PM

Don't start that again. I'm as entitled to express my opinions here are you are. I suggest you do with my posts what I do with Goofus's posts. Just scroll straight past them. You have no right not to be offended. Just as I have no right not to be offended when you inaccurately tell me that I know nothing of what I talk about. Enjoy your shooting and fishing, Wyatt.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:42 PM

Yebbut I'm not one of them, Wesley. And there IS nothing intellectual about believing in superstitions, is there!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:29 PM

Bla bla bla, I agree to disagree and leave it. I am actually more of a doc holiday than wyatt

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:33 PM

You can't disagree with superstition becuause disagreement comes from different takes on a subject. Superstition is irrational so how can you have a rational discussion about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:35 PM

However in Alaska you can do both. Halibut are dangerous hauling into a boat, big ones are shot first. Love your state ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:48 PM

Didn't Hemmingway shoot himself in both thighs with a Tommygun while trying to dispatch a shark aboard his boat. I've always been an Ike and Billy Clanton fan. I think they got buffaloed by the Earp brothers and Doc.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:49 PM

"You can't disagree with superstition becuause disagreement comes from different takes on a subject. Superstition is irrational so how can you have a rational discussion about it?"

Well you're right that you can't disagree with superstition, but that isn't what I said, was it! When I said there is nothing intellectual about believing in superstition (in which I include all religious belief, by the way, not just Mystic Meg, Friday the 13th and not walking under ladders), I was politely saying that it's all delusional. To me, that's a matter of fact, not opinion. But of course we can discuss rationally why some people decide to be irrational. Otherwise, lessons at schools for psychiatrists would be completely silent.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:49 PM

"Yebbut I'm not one of them, Wesley. And there IS nothing intellectual about believing in superstitions, is there!"

I have a good friend with a doctorate of theology from Harvard. So it would seem that Harvard disagrees with you. But believe whatever you want to believe - especially if it makes you feel superior.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:07 PM

Theology is the study of the subject, not a test of your gullibility. A degree in geography doesn't make you better at rock climbing.

That's why not only Harvard but the top universities such as the Oxbridge colleges offer theology.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:14 PM

What ever glad it's working so well for you and your such a kind person . Yeah Gilly he did, guess he forgot it had a full auto switch. Bet it hurt ouch. Maybe we can talk Fox News into issuing them again. My cousin owns a legal one. I am jealous lol

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:21 PM

Give it up guys, just look at how they treat people here. Good example why I am thankful for my faith but hey if they like how they are rock on. To each their own. I could care less and so should you

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:33 PM

Anyway if you can't fly what is the reason for allowing you to buy a gun. I have issues with Obama leadership but right is right. And how about the gun shows please. Expanding the bg check ain't a bad thing. No sensible gun owner could argue me thinks. But it is what it is

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM

Believe it or not steve, I really do wish you the best always. Even when I am playing on mudcat. Bs is not life, it's well bs

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:04 PM

You may rest assured, Wesley, that I don't decide whether to believe something or not on the strength of its possibly making me feel superior. As a matter of fact I try to avoid "belief" altogether where possible. It's no way to get through life. I find that evidence and reason are far more useful. I have several exceptions to this philosophy, all of them revolving around Liverpool football club.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:11 PM

When I get fed up with people around here, Dan, I just don't read their posts or get embroiled in their threads. Any struggles I bring on myself will be real-life struggles only.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:15 PM

Me too steve sometimes I like rattle the tree just to get things going. No issues ever here or mean spirit

Subject: ADD: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:05 PM

The tone of the hymn is far too militant for my taste, even though the war appears to be metaphorical. No indication of weapons or bloodshed, so it's unclear how the victory is supposed to be won. Perhaps Junior Falwell sings the song daily and may not grasp the concept of metaphor, but I've heard the it only once in a Catholic church. Afterwards, the choir director caught hell from the priest for doing it.
Rev. Sabine Baring-Gould (1834-1924), an Anglican priest, also wrote "Now the Day Is Over," a song much more to my liking. Baring-Gould was also known as a collector of folk songs.
Sir Arthur S. Sullivan (1842-1900) is best known for his 14 "operatic collaborations) with dramatist W.S. Gilbert.


ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS
Lyrics: S. Baring-Gould
Melody: ST. GERTRUDE (Arthur S. Sullivan)

1 Onward, Christian solders,
marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
leads again the foe;
Forward into battle,
see his banner go!

Refrain:
Onward, Christian soldiers,
marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
going on before!

2 At the sign of triumph
Satan's host doth flee;
On, then, Christian soldiers,
on to victory!
Hell's foundations quiver
at the shout of praise;
Brothers, lift your voices,
loud your anthems raise! [Refrain]

3 Like a mighty army
moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading
where the saints have trod;
We are not divided;
all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine,
one in charity. [Refrain]

4 Onward, then, ye people,
join our happy throng,
Blend with ours your voices
in the triumph song;
Glory, laud, and honor,
unto Christ the King;
This thro' countless ages
men and angels sing. [Refrain]

Baptist Hymnal, 1991

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:44 PM

When I was at school, we never sang this one, nor All Things Bright And Beautiful. They were regarded as solidly proddy-dog hymns. We weren't allowed to mix with the proddy kids from the school just up the street either, at least never in school time. We were trained in sectarianism. Of course, once out of school, out of sight of parents and teachers, we were all faith-blind. There's no such thing as a a Christian kid or Catholic kid or a Muslim kid, and the kids always know a damn sight better than the grown-ups. Yet another baleful side of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:00 PM

Never cared for it either, never heard it in my church growing up except in my school. Melody sucks also

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:05 PM

Probably no such thing as an atheist kid either, at least not till it's taught them. Till then they are likely to instinctively believe in a maker rather than the superstitious idea of self generated life .

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:14 PM

Pete, hope it's not me cause I am far from atheist, but of all the beautiful church songs onward Christian soldiers ain't one of them. I agree with Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:29 PM

Joe's right, its metaphorical, we used to sing it regularly at Sunday School(Presbyterian).
A great inspirational song about the triumph of good over evil, especially the teachings of Jesus.

Some of you people are so wet.....why aren't you more proud of your faith, don't let the buggers grind you down.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:35 PM

No-one "teaches" kids to be atheists. Sensible parents show their children the importance of never trusting what information anyone tries to give them unless the information can be supported by evidence, and they help them to work out what is true evidence and what is false evidence.Telling a child that they shouldn't believe in God is just as bad as telling them that they should believe. The main difference here is that thinking atheists, unlike believers, don't indulge in these practices. Good atheists want their children to be entirely free to make their minds up in an informed way. I suppose there are some good believers who also think that. That is a highly respectable position. Unfortunately, it seems to be an extremely difficult one to be true to.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:38 PM

"....why aren't you more proud of your faith, don't let the buggers grind you down."

One occasionally suspects that it's due to doubt and insecurity about their faith, an entirely understandable sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:44 PM

Naw it is because most of us believe our faith is personal and feel no need to flag wave or constantly defend against those who have none. The only relationship with God I care to discuss is mine and mine alone. You jello loving bottom dwelling slime sluggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:46 PM

The hymn is certainly metaphorical, but its highly-militaristic sentiment is clear. I imagine it would have gone down a storm as a battle-cry for all those Crusaders, not just with regard to its fighting talk but also via its marching tune. It isn't exactly about the brotherhood of mankind, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:57 PM

It's just not a great song. So many beautiful church songs but for my ears not this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:04 PM

"Naw it is because most of us believe our faith is personal and feel no need to flag wave or constantly defend against those who have none."

Well that is a very respectable position, as I've said dozens of times. Unimpeachable. Unfortunately, the actuality doesn't bear you out. We are already in the throes of a month's worth of Christian nonsense surrounding a winter festival that you lot stole and made your own and there's no getting away from baby Jesus now until nigh on New Year. That is not millions of Christians keeping their faith personal exactly, is it? Millions of parents and teachers are currently herding their offspring to carol services and those disgusting Christingle ceremonies as we speak. The airwaves are replete with plenty of that Christian flag-waving, making lots of Christian money for Christian-loving capitalists. If Jesus were alive today he'd be turning in his tomb, I tell you. Still, we all go along with it, persons of private faith, flag-wavers and heathens alike. The only difference with me is that I shun radio stations such as Classic FM that play carols all day, and on Christmas Day I shall raise a glass or eight to the strengthening sun. Now there's a notion next to which baby Jesus pales!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:07 PM

I gotta say, "Onward Christian Soldiers" is a great song, but I don't like it. It give me visions of Panzer tanks...

Both the melody and lyrics are very effective. It's just that I don't like their effect.

My view of faith requires tolerance and harmony and diversity and generosity - not victory.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:15 PM

It is the right of those who wish to celebrate to do so. You also have the right to ignore it all and go about you business or have a festifus. Nobody is forcing you into anything so what threatens you. That's called freedom. Muslims, Jews all faiths have their celebration days. Start an atheist celebration day if you want. However, it is wrong to attempt to impose your beliefs or non belief on others or tell them that you control what can or can't be celebrated. Mao outlawed music, next you will want to do that also, only music you like. Well if you pick rap I may support you.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:23 PM

I must confess that I'm very fond of Amazing Grace, and I've played the tune in dozens of churches on the harmonica. I give it a miss if there's a man of the cloth around, but the little Westcountry churches are frequently empty. It could be sung at my funeral but there would have to be some heavy tweaking of the lyrics after verse three. I'd come back and haunt anyone who cheated on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:27 PM

Beautiful song on any instrument, I love harmonica. I tried but I suck at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:29 PM

" Start an atheist celebration day if you want"

We did start one but you stole it and christened it "Christmas", and turned it from a day into about four months, and, horror of horrors, even brought Bing Crosby into it. And I wouldn't dream of trampling on your freedoms. Such activity is the predilection of religion, not at all in the realms of us heathens.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:38 PM

"Probably no such thing as an atheist kid either, at least not till it's taught them."

Hmmm... I grew up as a Methodist... but I also learned about thinking & questioning. (Not from being taught by atheists, but from reading dozens of books and just using...ummm... the brain God gave me...if a God did give me this brain, I'd hope He'd be pleased that I used it.)

I'm not, strictly speaking, an atheist, as I don't pretend to see any ultimate answer about 'creation'.... but I suppose to fundamentalist Christians, my views about life and morality and the Universe are similar to most thinking atheists. I just don't worry about labels... most labels are misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:42 PM

Well you are not going to hear me call you that steve, really, Christmas is special to my belief but there are lots of other days I like also.
You can celebrate or not and no judgment from me either way. You will never hear me telling you to go to church. I will be there but that is my choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:51 PM

Olddude, if you would blow on your harmonica, maybe you wouldn't suck. Or maybe you should do both.

I'm just sayin'.....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:52 PM

Lol thanks Joe for the advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:55 PM

Oh, I'll be celebrating all right. No church for me though. As a matter of fact I was in Bath on Saturday and I wanted to go into Bath Abbey, a cathedral in all but name, one of my very favourites. Unfortunately there was a carol concert on so I wouldn't have been able to sidle around, just sit there and listen to the sweet nothingness (no, thanks), so I went for a stroll by the River Avon instead. The sun was out, the day was mild and God was in his heaven. I apply the title " atheist" to myself as a matter of convenience only, Bill, as I can't be arsed to explain my exact stance every time it comes up as it would take about three sentences. I don't know whether there's a God or not, but I conclude that the scales are tilted strongly against him if I rely on evidence and reason alone (which I do). I'd be very suspicious of any atheist who said he was rock-solid certain. Real atheists don't think that way.