BS: Onward Christian Soldiers

Subject: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 10:46 AM

No comment necessary:


Liberty University president urges: 'End those Muslims' via concealed gun carry
Associated Press in Lynchburg, Virginia
Saturday 5 December 2015 16.35 EST

The president of Liberty University urged students, staff and faculty at the Christian school to carry concealed weapons on campus to counter any possible armed attack like the mass shooting in San Bernardino, California.

"Let's teach them a lesson if they ever show up here," President Jerry Falwell Jr told an estimated 10,000 students at the weekly convocation held on Friday in Lynchburg.

"I've always thought if more good people had concealed carry permits, then we could end those Muslims before they walked in," Falwell said.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:04 AM

The man is an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:06 AM

I heard that story yesterday and my first thought was "What would Jesus carry?".

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:10 AM

Only two of the countless US mass shootings have been by Muslims, but what is wrong with someone firing back at any mass shooter?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:22 AM

Here ya go, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:27 AM

Shocking, but what is wrong with someone firing back at any mass shooter?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:36 AM

What is wrong is that you shouldn't have a gun to fire back with. What is also wrong is that the assailant should not be able to have a gun either. You'd think it was the wild west and that most yanks think they're Billy The bloody Kid. There seems to be a lot of excess insanity going round in America. Another reason for you in particular is that God told you not to kill people and he also said that you should turn the other cheek. Don't you just love these Christians who cherrypick the bits of their belief system that suit them?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:41 AM

There's too many whack jobs out there with too much accessibility to firearms. You encourage these people, many of whom have little or no law enforcement training, to open fire in crowds of people and you are courting disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:51 AM

Should have said "most of whom".

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 12:03 PM

What is also wrong is this "Christian"(sic) pastor at a "Christian"(sic) school urging people to "end those Muslims"
implyimg, once again, that all Muslims are terrorists.

The way anti-Muslim hysteria is sweeping the U.S. its only a matter of time before we see a pogrom on Muslims with deadly consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 12:03 PM

What is wrong is that a retired school teacher isn't competent to carry a gun. In The UK where Keith is, that wonderful law is one that normal people wish to keep, the alternative being that the terrorists have won.

In addition, the "we are Christians they are Muslims" stupidity just exacerbates the need for medieval shit to be ignored and certainly not encouraged by normal people.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 12:29 PM

The easiest way to prevent hijackings is to give all passengers guns as they board the plane. Pat Paulsen suggested that. He was a comedian.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 12:34 PM

I'm sure Trump or Rubio will propose that within days, Bruce. And they're NOT comedians.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 12:51 PM

We laugh at them over here though. Our topical comedy on the telly wouldn't be the same without laughing at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 12:51 PM

Remember that for Y2K, if you can remember back that far, this man's father believed the world was going to end and so stocked up on 9mm ammo. Everyone knows that when God pulls the plug you'll need all the ammo you can get for that Rapture thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 02:03 PM

What is also wrong is that the assailant should not be able to have a gun either.

Agree totally, and I am indeed lucky to live in a much safer place, but in US you have a mass shooting most weeks.

They tend to keep killing until someone with a gun finally arrives to stop them.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 02:11 PM

"They tend to keep killing until someone with a gun finally arrives to stop them."

Which came first: the chicken or the egg? Obviously the egg.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 02:19 PM

Well it's a prime example of crazy not being restricted to any one religious group.

If someone wants to go through new york permit process I have no problem I guess, but sadly some states its too little training and that makes it dangerous I think

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 02:20 PM

Jerry Falwell? I thought he was dead. Or at least defrocked.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 02:41 PM

He's not a real Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 02:54 PM

No he is not, you are correct guest. Every priest or pastor I know just tells everyone to pray for sanity in this troubled world. What crazy tells them to arm themselves. You better know what you aare doing before carrying a firearm.

I have no problem with fully qualified and vetted people carrying for the correct reasons and are willing to accept the responsibility to safe guard others. But damn few are at that level in some states

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 03:04 PM

"what is wrong with someone firing back at any mass shooter?"
Jeeze - he's not a gun nut as well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 05:29 PM

Of course he is.

His military fascination is the clue. Presumably wasn't fit for the army. That's the usual pattern.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 05:36 PM

Reading up a bit I find that Jerry Falwell is indeed dead, this is his son who has the same name (maybe followed by junior). Its a bit like the Kims in North Korea I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 05:46 PM

Keith, let's go thru this in words of few letters so it's easy to get. A bad chap starts shooting with a gun. Let's say some good chaps have guns too so they start shooting. Then some other good guys come in cos they heard the shooting and see some chaps shooting. So they start shooting too, maybe at the good guys cos they don't know who is who. Then the good chaps start shooting back. No one's aim is very good so most of the folks they shoot had zip to do with the whole thing apart from being there. Sorry for using words of more than four letters.

This is one reason why Village Aunties are a bad idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 05:46 PM

More like the Bushes.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 05:49 PM

Ooops last in response to Dave @ 5:36

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 06:04 PM

Keith, let's go thru this in words of few letters so it's easy to get. A bad chap starts shooting with a gun. Let's say some good chaps have guns too so they start shooting. Then some other good guys come in cos they heard the shooting and see some chaps shooting. So they start shooting too, maybe at the good guys cos they don't know who is who. Then the good chaps start shooting back. No one's aim is very good so most of the folks they shoot had zip to do with the whole thing apart from being there. Sorry for using words of more than four letters.

This is one reason why Village Aunties are a bad idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 06:18 PM

Keith wrote : "They tend to keep killing until someone with a gun finally arrives to stop them."

In almost all (or perhaps all) of those cases that someone is a trained law enforcement officer who knows how to handle those situations without inflicting collateral damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 06:29 PM

"Onward Christian Soldiers" - Sabine Baring-Gould's hymn makes no mention of guns, or any kind of weaponry. Unfair tying it in to American gun crazies, even when they make out they are Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 06:31 PM

Oh, please, Kevin -

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 06:40 PM

Hey Greg, what about "Onward Muslim Soldiers", is that cool?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 06:53 PM

" what is wrong with someone firing back at any mass shooter? "

Well, when that congresswoman (and several others) was shot in Arizona a few years ago, one young man in the crowd had a gun, and was about to return fire when he realized he had mis-identified who was guilty.

If many people... say, a majority- like the NRA would like to see... carried guns, and a terrorist or crazy nut started shooting, would YOU like to be in the crowd when several... or several dozen 'concerned vigilantes' started shooting? Most people who DO carry guns have no experience in sudden emergency situations.... they 'may' know how to aim and shoot, but that is far from being competent to judge WHO to shoot at, and where innocent bystanders are.

Most terrorist or crazy person attacks come with no warning! Even dedicated 'defenders of the 2nd amendment' cannot be counted on to be in the right place and able to make the right choices under high-stress situations.
(This is different from a liquor store clerk possibly being able to stop a robbery... but even that has more sad than happy stories.)


And remember.... everyone who has NOT been judged to be crazy or a felon can currently buy guns until they DO cause a problem.... and then it's too late. This is how most of the recent major shooting have gone down.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 06:59 PM

Well, Baring-Gould was a folkie. Solidarity.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 07:11 PM

That's a very good argument, Bill, very sane. But is it as good an argument as saying that no human being, on principle, should be walking the streets with a lethal weapon in his pocket? Think about it. If the police apprehend an alleged murderous or felonious villain, they must arrest him, charge him, remand him, send him for trial in front of a judge and jury. Yet we permit people, far less qualified than anyone in the police or justice system, to carry a lethal weapon that allows them to kill on the strength of a split-second decision that could be based on just about anything other than a measured judgement. I call that insane. When I think of the power of the gun lobby, the pro-Israel lobby, the evangelical lobby and the oil lobby in your country, I seethe when I hear anyone calling your country the land of the free or the bastion of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 09:10 PM

I think, though, that it's incorrect to view Liberty University and Jerry Falwell's son as representative of Christianity. It's not a good idea to judge any group, even Christianity, by its extremists.

Seems to me that the vast majority of educational institutions, religious and non-religious, in the U.S. oppose or prohibit carrying firearms on campus.

I was surprised that Bernie Sanders was invited to speak at Liberty University recently. Apparently, the speech went off quite well.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 09:29 PM

Though it's very noticeable from this end that many of your more right-wing politicians embrace, loudly at times, both Christianity and the gun lobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 09:43 PM

In regard to the question above "What would Jesus carry?

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
— Luke 22:3


The Gospel of John states that Simon Peter cut off the ear of Malchus, the servant of Caiaphas, the high priest.[

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I am going to attempt some extream restraint and cease visiting this cess pool, everytime I delve into this lower region I leave feeling filthy and defiled. There are some very twisted souls down here.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 09:47 PM

As many of you may have heard - the single best day of gun sales in Americas history was reportedly last Black Friday. The day after Thanksgiving.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 09:54 PM

Well, Wesley, Christianity can be very well compartmentalised. Why, I know several Christians around here who are very nice on Sunday mornings. *Only* on Sunday mornings.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 09:59 PM

Christians are no different than atheists or anyone else for that matter. Some good, some bad. Some days are better than others. This wan't one of my best days but I'd like to think that over all I'm a pretty good person. I'll bet it's the same with the people you mentioned too.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 10:42 PM

Unless something has changed in the law that I am unaware of, the federal law prohibits guns on campus. Joe is correct. Unless there is an emergency even visiting police officers had to check their firearms before entering a campus. That federal law was enacted after Kent State

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 11:57 PM

Dan, here in Florida there is legislation being pushed hard by Republicans and the NRA to make concealed carry legal on state university campuses even though "university and college presidents and administrators, campus police chiefs, faculty and other education groups vehemently oppose allowing guns on campus." Click here.

I hope that there's a federal law in place to shoot this insanity down. Pardon the pun.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:40 AM

Gilly not good. I will have to read up on the federal law, I can't see how they can ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:55 AM

Supreme Court over turned the law in 1995 leaving it up to the states. Yikes just read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:38 AM

"Onward Christian Soldiers makes no reference to guns."

That's up there with The Krays were kind to their Mum.

If madrassas had children of Muslim parents singing about "marching into war" with Allah as their right, leading against the foe and other disgusting rhetoric, so called Christians would be the first to start bleating.

"Onward Christian Soldiers" was something we sang as children in school. When I was old enough to understand what I singing, that song nauseated me and still does. When you drive west out of Wakefield you still see the sign "home of Onward Christian Soldiers". Ironically, one sign is straight outside a local mosque. Dontcha luv irony?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:21 AM

"marching as to war" read the words. Miss-representing Baring-Gould's words is just the same as miss-representing any other religion's "promotional material". It does not help understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Cambrai
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 05:31 AM

If madrassas had children of Muslim parents singing...???

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 05:55 AM

Well, Guest, that misreading of the words, if applied, doesn't actually alter the militaristic sentiment of the hymn. Read on to the end of the first verse. Not much chance of avoiding the rather bellicose allusions, I'd say. I'd put that misreading down to a peccadillo rather than a gross misrepresentation. In other words, point taken, but don't nitpick.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:00 AM

"Christians are no different than atheists or anyone else for that matter. Some good, some bad. Some days are better than others. This wan't one of my best days but I'd like to think that over all I'm a pretty good person. I'll bet it's the same with the people you mentioned too."

Well, not with one or two... But point taken, Wesley. It's just that atheists tend not to have pedestals they can fall off just before Sunday lunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:16 AM

Oh come off it Steve Shaw, it's metaphorical thoughout. I don't like the metaphor, but metaphor it is.

I acknowledge that Jerry Falwell Jr may not regard the "Satan's host" part as metaphorical. But he didn't bring the hymn up. The OP did.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:54 AM

What's a thoughout when it's at 'ome?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:10 AM

throughout. Nothing else to say then?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:54 AM

" It's just that atheists tend not to have pedestals they can fall off just before Sunday lunch."

I'm not so sure about that. There are some atheists - and this is true for other groups as well - that assume an air of moral superiority that is every bit as lofty as some Christians. In general humans love to belong to groups so they can look down on other groups. It makes them feel better about the positions they have assumed. That goes for Christians and atheists alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:12 AM

Quite right, and true of some on here , IMO, but not naming anyone.....

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:23 AM

Good observation, Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:34 AM

I meant to add that most of the atheists I've known are not nearly so forthcoming with their beliefs (or lack of beliefs) as the evangelical christians I've known.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:40 AM

I know a few atheists who adopt an air, quite correctly, of intellectual superiority over those of faith, but that isn't hard, as there's nothing intellectual about believing in superstitions. But moral superiority? I think not. We're an incredibly humble lot who know that morality has nothing to do with either religion or atheism. As for Sunday morning pedestals and falling off them, well the Queen goes to church on Sunday but she still doesn't do as Jesus said and give all her stuff away. In fact, most of it is locked away where the moths consumeth and the thieves would, if they could getteth past security, breaketh in and stealeth. And General Franco went to communion every day in between giving orders to murder thousands of people. And don't get me started on priests eyeing up the altar boys even before the mass has finished. By the way, I can't possibly look down on OTHER groups because I'm not in a group.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:48 PM

Oh please, you know nothing of what you talk about. I hold my nose as always

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

Hey Gilly, I almost gave you a fishing shout, I was in the keys last weekend

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:09 PM

Nobody cares what anyone believes or doesn't, Obama gun proposal makes sense to even those of us with firearms. That's what is important. Wack jobs tellinguuntrained students to arm themselves doesn't work

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:31 PM

"I know a few atheists who adopt an air, quite correctly, of intellectual superiority over those of faith, but that isn't hard, as there's nothing intellectual about believing in superstitions."

Thanks for proving my point for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:39 PM

Don't start that again. I'm as entitled to express my opinions here are you are. I suggest you do with my posts what I do with Goofus's posts. Just scroll straight past them. You have no right not to be offended. Just as I have no right not to be offended when you inaccurately tell me that I know nothing of what I talk about. Enjoy your shooting and fishing, Wyatt.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:42 PM

Yebbut I'm not one of them, Wesley. And there IS nothing intellectual about believing in superstitions, is there!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:29 PM

Bla bla bla, I agree to disagree and leave it. I am actually more of a doc holiday than wyatt

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:33 PM

You can't disagree with superstition becuause disagreement comes from different takes on a subject. Superstition is irrational so how can you have a rational discussion about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:35 PM

However in Alaska you can do both. Halibut are dangerous hauling into a boat, big ones are shot first. Love your state ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:48 PM

Didn't Hemmingway shoot himself in both thighs with a Tommygun while trying to dispatch a shark aboard his boat. I've always been an Ike and Billy Clanton fan. I think they got buffaloed by the Earp brothers and Doc.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:49 PM

"You can't disagree with superstition becuause disagreement comes from different takes on a subject. Superstition is irrational so how can you have a rational discussion about it?"

Well you're right that you can't disagree with superstition, but that isn't what I said, was it! When I said there is nothing intellectual about believing in superstition (in which I include all religious belief, by the way, not just Mystic Meg, Friday the 13th and not walking under ladders), I was politely saying that it's all delusional. To me, that's a matter of fact, not opinion. But of course we can discuss rationally why some people decide to be irrational. Otherwise, lessons at schools for psychiatrists would be completely silent.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:49 PM

"Yebbut I'm not one of them, Wesley. And there IS nothing intellectual about believing in superstitions, is there!"

I have a good friend with a doctorate of theology from Harvard. So it would seem that Harvard disagrees with you. But believe whatever you want to believe - especially if it makes you feel superior.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:07 PM

Theology is the study of the subject, not a test of your gullibility. A degree in geography doesn't make you better at rock climbing.

That's why not only Harvard but the top universities such as the Oxbridge colleges offer theology.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:14 PM

What ever glad it's working so well for you and your such a kind person . Yeah Gilly he did, guess he forgot it had a full auto switch. Bet it hurt ouch. Maybe we can talk Fox News into issuing them again. My cousin owns a legal one. I am jealous lol

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:21 PM

Give it up guys, just look at how they treat people here. Good example why I am thankful for my faith but hey if they like how they are rock on. To each their own. I could care less and so should you

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:33 PM

Anyway if you can't fly what is the reason for allowing you to buy a gun. I have issues with Obama leadership but right is right. And how about the gun shows please. Expanding the bg check ain't a bad thing. No sensible gun owner could argue me thinks. But it is what it is

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM

Believe it or not steve, I really do wish you the best always. Even when I am playing on mudcat. Bs is not life, it's well bs

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:04 PM

You may rest assured, Wesley, that I don't decide whether to believe something or not on the strength of its possibly making me feel superior. As a matter of fact I try to avoid "belief" altogether where possible. It's no way to get through life. I find that evidence and reason are far more useful. I have several exceptions to this philosophy, all of them revolving around Liverpool football club.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:11 PM

When I get fed up with people around here, Dan, I just don't read their posts or get embroiled in their threads. Any struggles I bring on myself will be real-life struggles only.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:15 PM

Me too steve sometimes I like rattle the tree just to get things going. No issues ever here or mean spirit

Subject: ADD: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:05 PM

The tone of the hymn is far too militant for my taste, even though the war appears to be metaphorical. No indication of weapons or bloodshed, so it's unclear how the victory is supposed to be won. Perhaps Junior Falwell sings the song daily and may not grasp the concept of metaphor, but I've heard the it only once in a Catholic church. Afterwards, the choir director caught hell from the priest for doing it.
Rev. Sabine Baring-Gould (1834-1924), an Anglican priest, also wrote "Now the Day Is Over," a song much more to my liking. Baring-Gould was also known as a collector of folk songs.
Sir Arthur S. Sullivan (1842-1900) is best known for his 14 "operatic collaborations) with dramatist W.S. Gilbert.


ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS
Lyrics: S. Baring-Gould
Melody: ST. GERTRUDE (Arthur S. Sullivan)

1 Onward, Christian solders,
marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
leads again the foe;
Forward into battle,
see his banner go!

Refrain:
Onward, Christian soldiers,
marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
going on before!

2 At the sign of triumph
Satan's host doth flee;
On, then, Christian soldiers,
on to victory!
Hell's foundations quiver
at the shout of praise;
Brothers, lift your voices,
loud your anthems raise! [Refrain]

3 Like a mighty army
moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading
where the saints have trod;
We are not divided;
all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine,
one in charity. [Refrain]

4 Onward, then, ye people,
join our happy throng,
Blend with ours your voices
in the triumph song;
Glory, laud, and honor,
unto Christ the King;
This thro' countless ages
men and angels sing. [Refrain]

Baptist Hymnal, 1991

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 06:44 PM

When I was at school, we never sang this one, nor All Things Bright And Beautiful. They were regarded as solidly proddy-dog hymns. We weren't allowed to mix with the proddy kids from the school just up the street either, at least never in school time. We were trained in sectarianism. Of course, once out of school, out of sight of parents and teachers, we were all faith-blind. There's no such thing as a a Christian kid or Catholic kid or a Muslim kid, and the kids always know a damn sight better than the grown-ups. Yet another baleful side of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:00 PM

Never cared for it either, never heard it in my church growing up except in my school. Melody sucks also

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:05 PM

Probably no such thing as an atheist kid either, at least not till it's taught them. Till then they are likely to instinctively believe in a maker rather than the superstitious idea of self generated life .

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:14 PM

Pete, hope it's not me cause I am far from atheist, but of all the beautiful church songs onward Christian soldiers ain't one of them. I agree with Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:29 PM

Joe's right, its metaphorical, we used to sing it regularly at Sunday School(Presbyterian).
A great inspirational song about the triumph of good over evil, especially the teachings of Jesus.

Some of you people are so wet.....why aren't you more proud of your faith, don't let the buggers grind you down.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:35 PM

No-one "teaches" kids to be atheists. Sensible parents show their children the importance of never trusting what information anyone tries to give them unless the information can be supported by evidence, and they help them to work out what is true evidence and what is false evidence.Telling a child that they shouldn't believe in God is just as bad as telling them that they should believe. The main difference here is that thinking atheists, unlike believers, don't indulge in these practices. Good atheists want their children to be entirely free to make their minds up in an informed way. I suppose there are some good believers who also think that. That is a highly respectable position. Unfortunately, it seems to be an extremely difficult one to be true to.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:38 PM

"....why aren't you more proud of your faith, don't let the buggers grind you down."

One occasionally suspects that it's due to doubt and insecurity about their faith, an entirely understandable sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:44 PM

Naw it is because most of us believe our faith is personal and feel no need to flag wave or constantly defend against those who have none. The only relationship with God I care to discuss is mine and mine alone. You jello loving bottom dwelling slime sluggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:46 PM

The hymn is certainly metaphorical, but its highly-militaristic sentiment is clear. I imagine it would have gone down a storm as a battle-cry for all those Crusaders, not just with regard to its fighting talk but also via its marching tune. It isn't exactly about the brotherhood of mankind, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 07:57 PM

It's just not a great song. So many beautiful church songs but for my ears not this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:04 PM

"Naw it is because most of us believe our faith is personal and feel no need to flag wave or constantly defend against those who have none."

Well that is a very respectable position, as I've said dozens of times. Unimpeachable. Unfortunately, the actuality doesn't bear you out. We are already in the throes of a month's worth of Christian nonsense surrounding a winter festival that you lot stole and made your own and there's no getting away from baby Jesus now until nigh on New Year. That is not millions of Christians keeping their faith personal exactly, is it? Millions of parents and teachers are currently herding their offspring to carol services and those disgusting Christingle ceremonies as we speak. The airwaves are replete with plenty of that Christian flag-waving, making lots of Christian money for Christian-loving capitalists. If Jesus were alive today he'd be turning in his tomb, I tell you. Still, we all go along with it, persons of private faith, flag-wavers and heathens alike. The only difference with me is that I shun radio stations such as Classic FM that play carols all day, and on Christmas Day I shall raise a glass or eight to the strengthening sun. Now there's a notion next to which baby Jesus pales!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:07 PM

I gotta say, "Onward Christian Soldiers" is a great song, but I don't like it. It give me visions of Panzer tanks...

Both the melody and lyrics are very effective. It's just that I don't like their effect.

My view of faith requires tolerance and harmony and diversity and generosity - not victory.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:15 PM

It is the right of those who wish to celebrate to do so. You also have the right to ignore it all and go about you business or have a festifus. Nobody is forcing you into anything so what threatens you. That's called freedom. Muslims, Jews all faiths have their celebration days. Start an atheist celebration day if you want. However, it is wrong to attempt to impose your beliefs or non belief on others or tell them that you control what can or can't be celebrated. Mao outlawed music, next you will want to do that also, only music you like. Well if you pick rap I may support you.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:23 PM

I must confess that I'm very fond of Amazing Grace, and I've played the tune in dozens of churches on the harmonica. I give it a miss if there's a man of the cloth around, but the little Westcountry churches are frequently empty. It could be sung at my funeral but there would have to be some heavy tweaking of the lyrics after verse three. I'd come back and haunt anyone who cheated on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:27 PM

Beautiful song on any instrument, I love harmonica. I tried but I suck at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:29 PM

" Start an atheist celebration day if you want"

We did start one but you stole it and christened it "Christmas", and turned it from a day into about four months, and, horror of horrors, even brought Bing Crosby into it. And I wouldn't dream of trampling on your freedoms. Such activity is the predilection of religion, not at all in the realms of us heathens.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:38 PM

"Probably no such thing as an atheist kid either, at least not till it's taught them."

Hmmm... I grew up as a Methodist... but I also learned about thinking & questioning. (Not from being taught by atheists, but from reading dozens of books and just using...ummm... the brain God gave me...if a God did give me this brain, I'd hope He'd be pleased that I used it.)

I'm not, strictly speaking, an atheist, as I don't pretend to see any ultimate answer about 'creation'.... but I suppose to fundamentalist Christians, my views about life and morality and the Universe are similar to most thinking atheists. I just don't worry about labels... most labels are misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:42 PM

Well you are not going to hear me call you that steve, really, Christmas is special to my belief but there are lots of other days I like also.
You can celebrate or not and no judgment from me either way. You will never hear me telling you to go to church. I will be there but that is my choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:51 PM

Olddude, if you would blow on your harmonica, maybe you wouldn't suck. Or maybe you should do both.

I'm just sayin'.....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:52 PM

Lol thanks Joe for the advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 08:55 PM

Oh, I'll be celebrating all right. No church for me though. As a matter of fact I was in Bath on Saturday and I wanted to go into Bath Abbey, a cathedral in all but name, one of my very favourites. Unfortunately there was a carol concert on so I wouldn't have been able to sidle around, just sit there and listen to the sweet nothingness (no, thanks), so I went for a stroll by the River Avon instead. The sun was out, the day was mild and God was in his heaven. I apply the title " atheist" to myself as a matter of convenience only, Bill, as I can't be arsed to explain my exact stance every time it comes up as it would take about three sentences. I don't know whether there's a God or not, but I conclude that the scales are tilted strongly against him if I rely on evidence and reason alone (which I do). I'd be very suspicious of any atheist who said he was rock-solid certain. Real atheists don't think that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:05 PM

Now HERE'S a Christian soldier leading his troops into battle:

"The Trump campaign released a statement Monday afternoon declaring his commitment to preventing Muslim immigration. The campaign justifies this discrimination by saying that large segments of the Muslim population bear "great hatred toward Americans.""

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Olddude
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 10:34 PM

I would not use the word Christian regarding him. Crazy bastard maybe

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:29 AM

The reaction to Trump from others in the presidential race do give some comfort. The man relies on our deep id instinct rather than our considered persona.

Pete is wrong. Belief in anything comes from having to be taught it. Children have to be susceptible to what goes on around them, it is an instinctive survival mode honed over millions of years. (If you bend and look with a double mirror, you can still make out the star fish we share ancestry with.)

The most wonderful gift my parents gave me was the encouragement to learn how to think, not what to think. Something I tried to instil in my own children. Curiously, it didn't lead to any of being superstitious. So much for the influence of something not actually there.

It's one thing to have a pop at the malign influence of the other person's faith but to put your own forward as being better? It's faith as an organised tool that is the problem. The only one on here professing faith who makes any sense is Dan.

It's about you and him, not him and me. Cos I don't see him on my invite list.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:37 AM

Why be down on ALL Christians??...I mean.......

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:15 AM

Mr Trump's remarks have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:35 AM

Do you agree with him then?

I feel queasy again.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:48 AM

Here's several more proud Christian soldiers, supported in their views by millions of other self-declared Christians:

Ted Cruz, Twitter warrior, played soldier all weekend in Iowa, spouting "We will carpet bomb them into oblivion." (Shades of Curtis LeMay)

Marco Rubio took to Fox News to remind Americans that they are, or should be, "really scared and worried."

Jeb Bush said on Fox News Monday morning: "The idea that somehow there are radical elements in every religion is ridiculous."

Hey Goofus, ask these folks and their supporters: "Why be down on ALL Muslims?"

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 11:39 AM

We have at least 4... maybe 6 or 7... of the Republican candidates (NOT including Trump) whose primary basis for decision making is rooted in fundamental Christianity. You can imagine what would happen to the 1st Amendment if one of them were elected and appointed several SCOTUS members.

It's not that all Republicans are like that, but many Republicans will shrug at shredding of the 1st Amendment if they also get guns and protection for corporations and strict immigration policies also. (and several other things)

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:06 PM

"
It's not that all Republicans are like that, but many Republicans will shrug at shredding of the 1st Amendment if they also get guns and protection for corporations and strict immigration policies also. (and several other things"

Bill, I just don't understand why these things are linked to Evangelical Christianity.

You guys seems to have social issues hard wired to political issues. over hear there as many Labour supporters as there are Conservative supporters amongst people of faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:21 PM

Guest 8:35 am......must be something you ate.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:24 PM

I just don't understand why these things are linked to Evangelical Christianity.

We know, Ake, its patently obvious. For Christ's sake, look it up; plenty information available.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:41 PM

Dear defenders of the faith,

Have you ever considered that you may only be half right, but then again for all the wrong reasons?

Well you should.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:06 PM

Which faith, donuel, the Christian or the atheists faith ?    I almost feel ashamed at how poorly I compare with the militant atheists on here.   I mean, they take every opportunity to promote their faith and attack mine. Very rarely are these arguments begun by the Christians here.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:12 PM

" I mean, they take every opportunity to promote their faith and attack mine. "
Isn't that what all religions do - and always have done?
Seem to remember that The Church of England came into being to the smell of burning Catholics.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:15 PM

atheists faith

pete, the master of the oxymoron.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:48 PM

Guest says I am wrong, however there have been studies done that indicate that even in cultures not amenable to divine creation and design that children still recognise it. Dawkins even acknowledged it, and in a classic piece of wordplay doublespeak said.       " I am thoroughly happy with believing that children are predisposed to believe in invisible gods-I always was. But I also find the indoctrination hypothesis plausible. The two influences could, and I suspect do , reinforce one another ".            To their credit, new scientist 7feb09 ask. "If children have an innate belief in god, however,where does that leave the indoctrination hypothesis ?"               I don't think I am far off the mark in believing that many of the professed atheists here are far from confident in their claims, and are more in opposition to God than lacking evidence for him. Their aggressive words tend to reinforce that conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:09 PM

Pete. What the studies I have seen show is that human beings are susceptible to seeing agency in inanimate objects. At a trivial level it could be swearing at the car because it won't start. No god in that, but how about when a thunderstorm spoils the harvest for the third time, or the sun won't shine on it? Having invented a god the idea of divine creation is but a small step when one needs a story about where we came from.

Other people being superstitious does not validate one's own superstition. Usually the contrary - it presents a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:14 PM

"atheists faith. pete, the master of the oxymoron."

Not really. Both believers in some sort of higher power - aka "God" -    and those who don't believe in one at all have the same amount of facts to back up their claim. None at all. That's why both atheists and believers can be said to have "faith" in the correctness of their claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:19 PM

If you want the inside track on Daesh, do yourself a favour and watch the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KovpPJULvgk

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:27 PM

So.. Knowing that Christianity is a man made fantasy is in itself a belief system?

Methinks the superstitious on here are covering their own embarrassment by pulling rational thinking down to their level.

Baa Baa.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:29 PM

That reporter's talk is the most coherent and enlightened 'view' I have ever seen regarding this fiasco in Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:12 PM

Yes guest, it is. because, unless you can demonstrate it to be a made up fantasy, it is your belief that it is.   Also, because your own account of how we got here is a made up fantasy.   And as observational science does not demonstrate it, and in fact proposes processes contrary to observational science I have no hesitation in saying that . So although Wesley says correctly that both theists and atheists have faith , I would say the atheist needs more of it !       And guest just because someone else has superstious notions. ...like those contrary to observational science....don't mean that my belief system is superstitious and unreasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:25 PM

I watched the vid #, . Certainly observations that need noting , but whether he has an idea that would work, I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:00 PM

Great clip, Bruce. However, the comments section are also quite revealing regarding the idiots of this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:02 PM

And as observational science does not demonstrate it, and in fact proposes processes contrary to observational science I have no hesitation in saying that.

Utter gibberish.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 06:33 PM

"Probably no such thing as an atheist kid either, at least not till it's taught them. Till then they are likely to instinctively believe in a maker rather than the superstitious idea of self generated life ."

I hadn't really thought about this until you started spouting your ignorant bullshit, Pete. But, thinking back, I realise that all of the religious nonsense that was aimed at me as a child just sort of bounced off as though I was made of teflon or something. I have never believed in God - never ever!

If you want me to believe in God, then you first have to supply me with some evidence that he exists. But you can't supply any such evidence, can you, Pete?

But then I forgot ... you don't know what the word 'evidence' means, do you, Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 06:58 PM

"Not really. Both believers in some sort of higher power - aka "God" -    and those who don't believe in one at all have the same amount of facts to back up their claim. None at all. That's why both atheists and believers can be said to have "faith" in the correctness of their claims."

No they can't. The one thing that you're right about in this mass of nebulous thinking is that we have no facts to support the assertion that God almost certainly does not exist (that's the correct atheistic position, by the way). Now the reason that this position is not one of faith, but one of reason, is as follows. Say Wesley and I are in the pub, arguing over a pint or five, and the talk turns to matters of faith. Out of the blue, Wesley asserts that he saw a heart-shaped spaceship made out of pink marzipan covered with icing sugar. As it hovered over his house, a two-foot tall spaceman with three heads stood on top of the icing and shouted "wibble wibble wibble", once out of each of his mouths, at Wesley. Then the fellow hopped back inside and the spaceship disappeared in a cloud of diamond dust. I tell Wesley that what he saw was an impossibility. Marzipan is an unsuitable material for making spaceships out of, as the whole thing would catch fire or drop to bits as the vessel surged through the atmosphere, etc. Wesley gets upset and tells me not to insult his conviction that what he saw was true and that my denial of it is a matter of faith. He accuses me, quite rightly, of having no facts with which to refute his claim. Worse than that, no facts to that effect will ever be available to me. I can never demonstrate that he never saw what he said he saw, in other words. So let's introduce a neutral third party to the conversation. He hears us both out, and almost certainly comes to a decision that one of us of us is clearly deluded, insane even. Or maybe one over the eight, as we were in the boozer, after all. I'll give you one guess.

Yet the story has a number of advantages over the Godly assertion. Marzipan and icing certainly exist. Very tasty. Space travel is known to be feasible, and it isn't beyond the bounds that there could be three-headed aliens somewhere in the universe. But the story fails to stack up on several grounds unless we agree to suspend the laws of physics. No-one in their right mind would ever say that my taking against Wesley's yarn was a matter of faith. It is a matter of knowing the laws of nature, knowing what they do and don't permit and applying reason. That's the very opposite of faith, which is a position which requires no considered thought at all, just meek acceptance. My evidence against is the laws of nature. Wesley's evidence for is witness, which isn't actually evidence at all (unless he has photos which are a damn sight more convincing than Loch Ness Monster or flying saucer ones, of course). Ahah, say the faithful, but there may be laws of nature we haven't discovered yet. Sadly, the more science accumulates evidence, the less likely it is that a catastrophic overturning of the laws will happen. Not impossible, but let's say we've been waiting for an awful long time now for any law that would allow a supernatural being to exist. Which doesn't mean he doesn't, or that he can't make up his own laws. But we really are going way beyond even Wesley's marzipan fantasy now. No faith required to dismiss the notion, just reason. It's about time yer man showed his hand, I reckon. He could put this to bed once and for all, and I may have to eat my hat.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:18 PM

I believe Steve can doubt a remarkable sighting. Even Westley can doubt what he saw and believed to be marzipan.

However a defender of the faith (Isis or Christis) will find it impossible to think see or feel outside their faith and will defend to the point of war to irrationally prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:30 PM

"...there have been studies done that indicate that even in cultures not amenable to divine creation and design that children still recognise it."

This is a pure manifestation of weasel words. What studies, please? How were they done? What "cultures"? What is "not amenable to divine creation" supposed to mean? Which children, of what ages, what sample sizes and in what proportions?

My view is that this alleged natural predisposition to superstition (for that's what we're talking about) has yet to be demonstrated. It sounds like an excuse to me, invented by people with ulterior motives to fool us into thinking that 'tis not they who inculcate pernicious ideas into children's minds but, instead, it's some kind of natural propensity we all have for suspending disbelief. Well I want to see the evidence for that. Being scared of the dark or being nervously vigilant when moving around an area with lots of hiding places have the evolutionary advantage of protecting us. Belief in supernatural beings, including gods, ghosts, goblins, angels, fairies and leprechauns must be implanted, and I can't think of any evolutionary advantage in it. When these notions are manipulated by a certain kind of person they become instruments of control. Fully fledged, they become religious belief, the most pernicious thing of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:39 PM

I am very sorry you guys feel that way, faith works fine with me. But free will is important. If not believing really make you feel that happy I am very pleased for you and really am. My faith no matter what you think does make me happy also so it's live and let live. No preaching from me. I have enough problem keeping myself on the right path in this life. Never confuse faith for religion, not the same thing

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:49 PM

"I believe Steve can doubt a remarkable sighting. Even Westley can doubt what he saw and believed to be marzipan."

Well doubt is as much as I can do. I can't disprove the story, just doubt it, but doubt's a useless word unless qualified. So I doubt the story almost to the point of impossibility. Using evidence and reason, my assessment is that the likelihood of the story being true is vanishingly small. My whole point is that I have not arrived at that conclusion via faith.

A few years ago, I reported here that I once saw ball lightning moving over the houses in my street then disappearing into Epping Forest. There is no doubt in mind that any other explanation for what I saw was not feasible. The thing is, I have no evidence. Witness is not evidence unless corroborated, and even then convincing corroboration is quite difficult to achieve. There's no way I can persuade anyone that I saw ball lightning, or even that ball lightning exists at all. Yet the phenomenon has been reported many times, and many independent accounts (try YouTube) chime quite well with each other. There's a long way to go before the phenomenon becomes universally acknowledged as true. I suppose it would be superfluous to suggest that, even so, it has a lot more going for it than God has, the main difference being that it has yet to attract advocates who see it as a potential instrument of control. Just scientists, that's all. The world can seem upside down at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:30 PM

Well without sounding like I am preaching, I certainly am not ... The creator is all good, perfect light of all things that everyone born can see. The Lords is perfect truth. Now what better way to drive good people away from God and the truth than to infiltrate religion with evil. Catholic priest pedophiles, TV preachers calling for guns against Muslims etc. That is a perfect way to accomplish the task, to drive people away from the lord. I refuse to let them. I, like you and so many have run into evil religious leaders and very good religious leaders. However, no one can lead anyone to God, they must find God themselves.

Now does science contradict God. Not for me. You folks know my knowledge of mathematics and it is extensive. There is no random events in the universe from dark matter to sub atomic particles. To create such perfect order in such chaos only strengthens my belief.

There is no perfect proof of God, but from my observations, nothing else can explain it. More importantly I see God every time I look at my grand-baby. Anyway, that's my path. You guys find or found yours. Either way I call you friends even if I do rattle you up in jest at times. I am not really the redneck only guy who plays with guns and fishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:39 PM

All that remains now for you, then, is to explain the thing that is the only thing you see as being able to explain everything. I'd far sooner keep looking than propose an inexplicable, unseen, rule-breaking being who never shows himself except in the more fanciful flights of imagination. Still, that's just me. It looks like your quest has ended, so you can stop thinking now.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:49 PM

Ah but the science fun is looking at the building blocks that put it all together. Amazing math that we are now seeing such small steps.

God does show himself, just look hard or not. You won't see a burning bush but you may see it in the laughing face of a child or the sound of a great song. If it was easy we would not have to be here. Anyway it's a personal path we follow. No leaders, they just tend to fuck it up anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:53 PM

Oh don't mention ball lightning to my wife, I blew up my microwave making it one night as an experiment. It worked but melted my microwave. The plasma ball was hot

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 09:19 PM

I studied and practiced 7 different religions over 8 years to experience them from the inside out.

What I discovered was profound and enlightening.

----
Steve what the children 'experience' is a kind of hypnosis phenomena that is both mentally and somatically significant and real.
----

I will respond in PM to anyone actually interested in my unique journey beyond the Power of the Myth.

I believe the lengthy tale of my discovery is but a lost scroll in the wind of this thread except for very unique individuals and reasons previously stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 09:26 PM

Some time if you want, Iwwill tell you
About the time I technically died from a clot in my lung. Doc was blown awaywwhenI ttold him
About the events that occurred

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 10:04 PM

Here's an example of the religious voice in my community. You'll note that the majority of the pastors who signed this letter are women, and the principal signer (and probably the author) is a lesbian Unitarian minister, married to her co-pastor. Other faiths represented are Baha'i, Buddhism, and various "mainline" Christian denominations. I think this is what religious faith is supposed to be about. I think these pastors say it very well:

To the Editor, Auburn Journal:

This past week, like far too many weeks, has been discouraging and disheartening. Lives were lost, while others were violently and abruptly disrupted. As religious leaders and members of Clergy Voice of Placer People of Faith Together, we hold space for the anger, grief, worry, and heartbreak that these events create. But we can't do that alone. We, the People, in order to form a more perfect Union, need to come together.
There is a small, yet powerful percentage of people who choose violence to create fear and division. When we react in fear with labels, often delineating race or religion, making another human being the "other," when we lump any group of people together, creating false divisions of "them" and "us," then those who enact devastating violence achieve their goal.
Each of us, including our elected officials, have a moral obligation to choose thoughtfully, not rashly, how to lift up the values of the U.S. As communities and as a country, it is well past time to address the many underlying causes of shootings that occur in the U.S. and abroad, and to do so now.
Rather than beat the drums of war, let us turn our swords into plowshares in this season of peace. We need to create and support systems of immigration and sanctuary that require thorough background checks, and have space in our county, state, and country for those who, like so many of us and our families, choose to make a home here.
We need adequate services to provide mental health care, shelter, clean water, and a safer, saner, more responsible approach to the acquisition of firearms.
In this time of many different religious and social celebrations of darkness and light, of hope and possibility, may our commitment and courage outweigh our despair and our compassion outweigh our cynicism. May we reach out to one another with care rather than fear.

In faith, Rev. Lynn Gardner, Auburn (California)
Rev. Wendy Bartel, Rev. Daniel Spacek, Rev. Janice Steele, Rev. Judith Morgado, Rev. Carol Carter, Rev. Gerry Paulsen, the Very Reverend Cliff Haggenjos, Pastor Evyonne Simpkins, Rev. Linda Kelly, Pastor Charlane Lines, Rev. Dr. David Davidson-Methot, Gary McAnally.

I'm proud to a member of the board of directors of Placer People of Faith Together.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 10:13 PM

Well, when your heart stops and you see the docs working on you and you see the light and the tunnel and you hear the voices of angels and see your family and when the Lord tells you not yet my child, you still have work to do, but there are things you needed to learn. It changes you completely. I also described to the doc exactly what he did when working on me and exactly what tie he was wearing when he ran to the room and repeated his words exactly ... All while my heart was stopped. It changes you. Life does not end .. but like I said some religious leaders who are evil will do anything to drive people away from God. Jihad to destroy Islam, pedophiles to destroy Catholics, violence and intolerance to drive Jews away and it goes on, greed, murder.. God is God. I follow Jesus, but God is God ... evil will do anything to take people away from the creator. My thoughts anyway for what they are worth. Each finds their own path to follow, faith or no faith it is entirely up to the path one wishes to choose It doesn't mean those without faith are evil or those with faith are evil. It means the path is split and fee will determines it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 10:25 PM

Ake said back up there ^

" I just don't understand why these things are linked to Evangelical Christianity."

Because at least 4 of the candidates, Cruz, Huckabee, Carson & Fiorina... as well as Rick Santorum, who has dropped out.... have said as much, and have actively courted Evangelical Christian votes by asserting their faith as their driving force.
Several others have reaffirmed 'almost' those views, but in less obvious ways.

*IF* someone bases their political decisions on their religious beliefs, they WILL inevitably try to repress the views of those who hold other religious views - or none at all.

John Kennedy was Catholic, but he managed to separate his religion from his office.... like the Constitution says. Obama is a Christian, but he does not insert his faith into decisions.

There are more examples on both sides

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 10:46 PM

Political religion is for power and corruption. One can only come to God on a personal level and worldly stuff is not appropriate or desired. How about that render to Cesar quote they forget. Faith is private and personal. Does not mean people can't go to a church but it is for personal inspiration not worldly power. It's all wrong to do so I think

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket of the original variety
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 02:55 AM

Faith is your lapdog.

You stroke it, feed it and in return for nourishing it, it makes you feel good.

But it tends to bite other people and never leave it alone with children.

Dan has his creed. It's his, personal and it's very generous of him to share it. Others tell of how their creed is something relevant to others whether they want it or not.

I question Dan's love of firearms and I doubt that fish was quite as big as he said it was, but he is comfortable with his own take on metaphysical matters and distinguishes between personal faith and the cancer known as organised religion.

Top man.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,turnd
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:15 AM

Steve Shaw writes good, but how can we know if he is good? He comes across likely to do the right thing when called upon. You might say you could trust him by what he says, his word. That's faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:24 AM

Good post, Musket. And, despite my fencing with him, I agree heartily with whatt you say about Dan. He's abysmally wrong about one thing, however:

"Each finds their own path to follow, faith or no faith it is entirely up to the path one wishes to choose."

Most people of faith haven't been allowed to find their own path but are welded to the rails of someone else's path. Their task is not to find faith for themselves, but it could well be to struggle to free themselves from someone else's faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 05:02 AM

I have to confess that I find religion - of any flavour - to be completely baffling. I didn't understand it as a child and I don't understand it now, as a 67 year old adult.

I was travelling on a bus the other day and it stopped outside an old church. The church was a substantial stone built structure - probably built around 150 years ago. It was all locked up - with steel grilles on all the windows - and I would guess that someone had turned the key, in the lock of the substantial wooden door, for the final time, a generation or two ago. Outside was a board - originally painted red with gold lettering - now weathered to a sort of reddish brown colour with the gold paint peeling off. The board gave the name of the church, the denomination (some sort of non-conformist outfit), times of various services and the name of the resident minister (the "Rev. Fred Smith" or something).

All I could think was: what a waste! What a waste of money, time, energy, land, stone and craftsmanship (I hope the masons got paid well). All that effort so that a handful of people could turn up once or twice on a Sunday to perform meaningless rituals and make obeisance to a (probably) non-existent deity. Humans are a peculiar species! It's time we locked up all of the churches for the final time, learn how to confront reality - with all its messiness and uncertainty - and start to learn how to live on this planet without destroying it!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 05:39 AM

Thanks for sharing your experience olddude.
Many have reported similar.
Good to see you posting again.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 06:44 AM

You'll never know, turnd, without further evidence. I can tell you that I'm not a serial killer or a baby eater, but I wouldn't believe any of it without evidence. The only person in the whole Bible who got it right was doubting Thomas, and most of the buggers who wrote those gospels didn't even mention him and his deficit of blind faith. Awkward customers are not welcomed by Christianity!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 07:08 AM

Most people of faith haven't been allowed to find their own path but are welded to the rails of someone else's path.

From comments here, and those of my most outspokenly athiest friends, I think that should be 'Most practicing Roman Catholics haven't...". People brought up in other denominations and faiths seem to be able to drift off the rails without great feelings of resentment.

Those nuns and priests must be really cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 07:57 AM

I have to admit these Christians have some good songs. I'm just listening to Marilyn Middleton Pollock singing Bringing In The Sheaves. Brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 09:24 AM

Old Dude, it has always been evident to me even in various but brief posts of yours that the currents within you run deep.

You are indeed experienced in the true sense of the question we all heard in the sixties.

I see many here have come to similar conclusions in an overview of religion by corrupt self proclaimed leaders, but not al as Joe has documented.

The goals in war bear some resemblance to religion and vice versa.

In war the goal is treasure and real estate while using a religion as a justification for bloodshed and vengeance.

I am not saying war is all religious or religion is all war but that the goals in war and religion walk the same path in times of organized violence.

this is ture of Isis which uses a democratization of killing units justified by religion

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 10:32 AM

Truth be known my friends, the fish do tend to get bigger. My wife says I am compensating for other things. I sometimes stir thepot wwith you cause the music section gets boring but I would do anything to help any of you any time. But don't tell anyone

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 10:42 AM

I know the feeling. I have been empathetic and altruistic to a fault.
I think I overdid it since it has led to a kind of poverty that have left the children without any seed money to start life as specially abled individuals. Autism etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 10:59 AM

I have a twisted sense of humor at times. I figure god must also, he made me, and a giraffe. I am a bad work in progress for sure but I try. Mostly fail but still try except for my cussing which is something I am working on.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 11:38 AM

"Jello is to philosophy as coal is to Newcastle."

Arbuthnot Waldenheim III

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 01:29 PM

Interesting posts dan. I knew a lady from a neighbouring church who had an experience like that. She died properly this year, but she did so confidently , particularly, I think from the experience she previously had, more so.   Had another story at home bible study group this week from a woman saying that her grandchild had an experience of a significant improvement of her blind condition. She had just been to specialists who, she said, were blown away by it. It was not a full restitution however, but was of a improvement in a condition only known to get worse.. No explanation offered just "keep the faith"

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 01:41 PM

I wonder if anyone else noticed that in Stevens post where he told the ridiculous story, about marzipan spaceships , with the aim of making theism look ridiculous, that the applications he made about breaking the laws of nature, and science apply equally , nay, more so, to his own philosophical worldview.    And then he demands ref for the children studies. Although I could tap them out here, had he read carefully , one was in the body of the post, including I think where Dawkins admitted he had himself believed as a child !.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 01:53 PM

I don't have to try to make theism look ridiculous. The idea was to invent a parallel tale to theism which you could read without your theistic blinkers on. My tale was, in most regards, far less ridiculous than yours as it happens, but that was accidental. As for the rest of your post, I haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 02:41 PM

The noodly one will smite thy marzipan idolatry!!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:18 PM

"The Secretary of Treasury [State] and the Attorney General will invalidate all visas issued to Iranian citizens for future entry into the United States, effective today. We will not reissue visas, nor will we issue new visas, except for compelling and proven humanitarian reasons or where the national interest of our own country requires. This directive will be interpreted very strictly."

In 1979, the attorney general issued all Iranian students to report to their local immigration offices. While 7,000 were in violation of their visas, 15,000 Iranians were forced to leave the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 09:10 PM

Here's what Snopes has to say about that, Jimmy.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,turnd
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 11:53 PM

Steve Shaw, good lesson. Awkward Thomas 

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:15 AM

Very good reflection , turned, thanks for posting.          And guest no. Whatever....the noodle one is a lie too.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:17 AM

The noodly one will hear of your heresy. He will smite thee with a plague and a boil on your bum. His dire prognostications are saucy and delicious.

(Don't listen to those turncoat bastards in The Reformed Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster though. They are first up against the wall come the rinsing of the almighty pasta bowl.)

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:22 AM

Don't forget, Pete, noodliness is forever!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:54 AM

Those 14 people that were killed by terrorists are just collateral damage to the hate mongers here.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:01 AM

Any evidence for your disgusting slur?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 07:41 AM

In Yemen, Human Rights Watch investigated six selected airstrikes since 2009 and concluded that at least 57 of the 82 people killed were civilians, including a pregnant woman and three children who perished in a September 2012 attack

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 07:49 AM

Hmm. The lovely Thomas story isn't true, of course, as dead people drained of all their blood can't come back to life, but it does at least illustrate that asking for evidence is perfectly valid. Sticking his fingers into Jesus's various orifices must have seemed quite convincing, but, as the laws of nature had clearly been breached, had I been Tom I'd have still been looking for an alternative explanation. Let's try putting two possibilities side by side (I've made the second one up):

1. Jesus, his traumatised body bled dry (a soldier had stabbed him in the side, just to make sure), had died nailed to a cross. A couple of days later, he was back to life, walking, talking and handing out more good advice.

2. Jesus was in fact one of a pair of identical twins, the other chap having been kept hidden since birth for 33 years. After the real Jesus had snuffed it, he was brought out of hiding and paid a considerable sum to have himself authentically mutilated. After a thorough briefing by Jesus's old mates, he emerged to make a very good fist of impersonating the real McCoy.

Now suppose you were forced to believe that one of these stories was true (a lie, of course, as they're both egregiously false). Which one would you choose? The extremely unlikely scenario of the twin brother, which at least managed not to break any laws of nature, or the one that requires an unprecedented miracle to restore a battered two-day-old corpse back to vigorous life? Take yer pick: it's a choice between faith and reason, isn't it, and I know which one I'd choose. Only if forced to at knife-point, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:23 AM

If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:40 AM

Not if he emigrates to Outer Mongolia you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:33 AM

More Christian Soldiers in action:

NEW YORK (AP 10 Dec 2015) — A severed pig's head was left outside a mosque in Philadelphia. An Islamic center in Florida was defaced. A Sikh temple in California was vandalized by someone who mistook it for a mosque.

"The spike in anti-Muslim incidents began with the Paris attacks and has intensified with what happened in San Bernardino and now with what Donald Trump is proposing," Ibrahim Hooper, lead spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said Wednesday.

"The ground had been primed for this kind of harassment by the ongoing demonization of Islam," said Hooper. "After 9/11 there were hate crimes on the edges of society, but now it's in the mainstream with the leading Republican presidential candidate saying Muslims are not wanted in America."

The FBI, which keeps statistics on hate crimes committed nationwide, said data about 2015 will not be available until next year. But the Anti-Defamation League said it has tracked more than three dozen incidents since the Nov. 13 terror attacks in Paris."We're talking at least three dozen that we're aware of and I'm sure there are many more incidents that haven't been reported," said Oren Segal, the director of the ADL's Center on Extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:43 AM

Since then, how many Muslims have been killed by Christians other than the ones killed in military actions directed by the Christian Commander In Chief?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:48 AM

Give it time, Guest Asshole, just give it time.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:51 AM

People can choose, people switch at will
The goal of real evil is tto disrupt the right to choose your path. When faith in God in your path becomes a complete collective only directive, you get the pig head stuff and jihad. And all that we see. Evil wants people to no longer be free will beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:09 AM

Everyone is born with the light of the Creator inside them. We are given unrestricted free will to choose our private path in life. At anytime a believer can become a non-believer or the opposite because of our free will and the light of God inside everyone. Evil knows this. True evil is to disrupt your journey, to take away your free will and your path as it may be. We all die, if you get someone else s money or land or wife or whatever else this carnal world has to offer, when you die, it is all gone anyway. It is a short lived victory for evil. The true face of evil is to take away the path to God or your path through life as you choose. That is the real goal here. There is nothing wrong with people getting together in a church or whatever to strengthen their private journey. However, when personal paths become a common authoritarian path then true evil succeeds and destroys the light of God. That is the goal. This is why we get the situation we have today. Anyway no preaching cause I am not, just saying my path for what its worth if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:34 AM

Light of God is in every person, our job is to figure out what we will do with it. Give in to evil or good.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:00 AM

I will close Guantanamo in my first year of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:06 AM

"Everyone is born with the light of the Creator inside them."

Not me. I was assembled from just a few elements according to a blueprint that took three and a half billion years to evolve. I'm a winner because the chances of that particular egg and that particular sperm coming together were almost, but not quite, nil. And all that's a fact, and I personally find it infinitely more wonderful and awe-inspiring than any strange notion of a creator's light shining within me. If I try to be a good chap, perhaps I can cast some metaphorical light on the world in some small way, but it'll be my light, not someone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:37 AM

Yep, I've checked thoroughly and there doesn't appear to be any sort of light shining in me. I've even tried standing in front of a mirror in a darkened room and there doesn't seem to be any sort of light leaking out of my various orifices ... you'd think there would be, wouldn't you? I suppose it could be in a light-proof bodily cavity but then you would have thought a doctor would have detected it by now, wouldn't you? Internal lights - that's a new one on me!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 12:48 PM

Your choice, your path I don't care what other's choose. Free Will

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 01:30 PM

"......three and a half billion years to evolve........and all that's a fact....          No, all that is a philosophical choice made by you to accept on faith what you cannot demonstrate to be true.   It is your free will choice to adopt a godless worldview, even though it is contrary to observational and experimental observations of science.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 01:48 PM

Oh right! Does this mean that you can demonstrate the existence of God experimentally, Pete? What experimental design did you use and how did you analyse the data? Have you got round to publishing your results yet? This is exciting - you could be in line for a Nobel prize!!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 02:09 PM

I have no desire to demonstrate anything. If that was the bar over which science had to leap, there'd be be no science and no human progress. And if you could give me one single piece of experimental or observational evidence to support a Godly "worldview", I'd be all ears I would, honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:30 PM

How to sneak chocolate into an American cinema.

I saw that and it was too good not to post here.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:41 PM

"Oh right! Does this mean that you can demonstrate the existence of God experimentally, Pete? "

Tell you what. Let's compare your proof that a God does NOT exist side by side with Pete's proof that he DOES exist and we will see which one wins. And "because I say so" doesn't constitute proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM

It's logically impossible to prove a negative, Wesley.

By the way, it's Pete who is making the claims and assertions - not me.
I am merely expressing (somewhat facetiously, I admit) scepticism and doubt - there's nothing wrong with that - unless, of course, you claim to possess a deeply irrational quality called "faith".

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM

As I've said a million times, or twenty, or eight anyway, I have no proof of anything. I don't WANT to prove anything. I LIKE not being able, or wanting, to prove anything. Accumulating evidence to which one applies reason does not permit proof. That's how we make progress. Once you've proved something, that's the end of the quest. That isn't how I operate and it isn't how science operates. If pete has proof, well I'd certainly take a look. But I don't want the quest to end. The beauty of life is that we can always keep looking, stay curious and use our brains. Once we believe that God did everything, the quest has ended. The brain is no longer needed. It was probably never used enough in the first place. Actually, God would be quite cross about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:58 PM

Look not I will ever tell you what to believe or not. I only stated what applies to me. It is your life and your path through life. Me I am in your corner either way and that's the truth. Would I be delighted if you choose god, yes and if you don't I am still in your corner and respect your life decisions. No preaching no bad guys. We all muddle through life doing the best we can as we see it. Occasionally write a good song on the way

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:58 PM

The progression of humankind.

IF a daddy human and a mummy human really, really love each other ....

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:16 PM

"It's logically impossible to prove a negative, Wesley.

By the way, it's Pete who is making the claims and assertions - not me.I am merely expressing (somewhat facetiously, I admit) scepticism and doubt - there's nothing wrong with that - unless, of course, you claim to possess a deeply irrational quality called "faith"."


Translation: Because I say so.....

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:23 PM

My old boss used to think a white light shine out of his arse. But he was mistaken.

Most people in The UK at any rate don't choose whether to believe or not because the question frankly doesn't arise. The term atheist means rejecting theism. I haven't rejected it any more than I reject the agricultural policies of Mongolia.

So I'm not an atheist

Bit of a bastard for pete and his attempts to lower the intelligence of rational people by claiming they have a superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 04:55 PM

I thought any rational debate had got beyond getting dragged into the "you can't prove God doesn't exist" nonsense?

There was a bloke called Wesley who was born just down the road from where I live, albeit 300 years ago. He too believed in the god concept. But I bet he could have made a far better argument for it than claiming normal people can't prove him wrong.

I do know he dismissed the very idea of using religion as a military tool, so his brother Charles, the prolific hymn writer would never write anything glorifying soldiers as a means to any end.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:18 PM

What do you mean by that, Wesley? Are you really saying that faith in the supernatural, for which there's no evidence, can be rational? Care to expand on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:24 PM

And the hits just keep on coming! Another Christian Soldier steps up:

ABC News Wednesday, December 09, 2015 10:03PM
Castro Valley, Calif.

A group of Muslim men say they were attacked at Lake Chabot Regional Park in the East Bay, and the confrontation was caught on camera. The woman yelling at a group of Muslim men about hate could now face a hate crime charge herself.

Denise Slader, who works for the California Department of Corrections, is the woman in the video. She tells police that she is the real victim because she was videotaped against her will.

"I know she's a born again Christian, very religious." one neighbor said.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:15 PM

I guess they never got around to reading the part that reads 'that which you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me'

And evil just rejoices.. Very sad

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:36 PM

This is just to comment that I can never be reminded of the hymn "Onward Christian Soldiers" without being reminded of a book about the friendship between a young Londoner (Bow) and a certain mysterious girl, and the joke which they shared on a walk after church one Sunday. But to tell more here would be thread creep. So I started a BS thread of my own. The subject line starts with the name "Fynn" should you feel the slightest interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:37 PM

"Translation: Because I say so....."

Oh, come on, Wesley, surely you can do better than that?

I am questioning - not asserting anything. I can't help noticing, though, that asking pertinent questions about unexamined and/or unsubstantiated beliefs does tend to make some people very uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:52 PM

Don't worry about thread creep, keberoxu. We're experts at it! Your aside is a delight. Kudos!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 07:40 PM

I will stop the rise of the sea.

[?????]

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,gaudēre
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 12:58 AM

Evil gloats--

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket and his cloven hoof
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 03:29 AM

Evil goats?

Probably been reading too many Dennis Wheatley novels.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,gaudēre
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:21 AM

take the Mickey Bliss--ok, bit pretentious

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:37 AM

On the matter of proof, I caught the last thirty seconds of "Today" on Radio 4 this morning. I don't know who the interviewee was, but Jim Naughtie was asking him about the likelihood of a Loch Ness monster. The chap said that the evidence was strongly against, but he couldn't be certain. The only way to be sure one way or the other would be to drain Loch Ness and see what was on the bottom. I got to thinking about that. If the loch was drained and a monster was found and authenticated, that would definitely nail it. Almost. Men didn't land on the moon, the earth is flat and Elvis is still alive and working down the chippy, remember. In some people's deluded minds, reason would never win out. The outlandish always trumps the rational. But if nothing was found on the Loch bed it still wouldn't be PROOF that the monster didn't exist. It could have got washed up, died and been eaten by scavengers. It could have escaped out to sea. It could have fled up one of the rivers feeding the loch. The loch floor is a very large and complex place, difficult to search. All perfectly reasonable notions. In the realms of reason applied to evidence (science, in other words), this "proof" malarkey has no place. In maths maybe, but not science. But you can still bet your life that, before long, some Mudcat clown or other will be along to demand proof that God either does or doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:05 AM

Musket,
so his brother Charles(Wesley), the prolific hymn writer would never write anything glorifying soldiers as a means to any end.

"SOLDIERS of Christ, arise,
And put your armour on,
Strong in the strength which God supplies
Through his eternal Son;"
Charles Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:25 AM

Dear FBI. There is an extremist spewing hate against Christians on this forum.
Please investigate.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:58 AM

Before the FBI steps in, GUEST, perhaps you'd like to indicate which specific posts are "spewing hate against Christians".

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 07:19 AM

would never write anything glorifying soldiers as a means to any end.

"SOLDIERS of Christ, arise,
And put your armour on,
Strong in the strength which God supplies
Through his eternal Son;"
Charles Wesley.

So there is something that Keith A and Steve Shaw share - a lack of appreciation of the use of metaphor.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 09:35 AM

Attack my literary credentials at your peril, Guest darling. I note that you never post long enough posts to expose your undoubted shortcomings. Go on, give us a laugh and post a ten-liner. I dare you to actually develop a thought or two, rather than do just the usual negative sniping.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 10:41 AM

Just lost another post...so shorter attempt.   Proof, yep, think we can agree that is slippery. However , suppose we take Stevens Nessie analogy, and insert evolutionism instead.   Metaphorically, the loch is getting drained and the evidence is against evolutionism. Not only is the increasing complexity of our cells making naturalistic explanations highly unlikely , but increasingly science contradicts Darwin dogma. However, no matter if we drain the whole thing, the committed evolution believer will still hang on in hope that the findings of observational, experimental science can be somehow not what they appear, Darwin be praised !.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:39 AM

"Not only is the increasing complexity of our cells making naturalistic explanations highly unlikely ... "

How are such explanations "highly unlikely"? Who has decided that they are unlikely? What other explanations are more likely?

" ... but increasingly science contradicts Darwin dogma."

Does it? Please cite some references.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:40 AM

"....once we believe that God did everything , the quest is ended..." Steve .      That is a statement also contradicted by the evidence. Many scientists past and present have been or are creationists, and it does not hamper their science at all. They can still investigate the processes that God uses in the natural world.   I suppose you might mean , stop looking for a naturalistic explanation so will that make him redundant , but that is hardly in the spirit of following the evidence where're it leads !. However, a refusal to consider creation and ID has hampered research.   And it was only because a dino bone had to be broken, that the soft tissue discovery was made.....not because they looked for it. And of course that discovery was resisted for as long as they could , supposedly for scientific rigour. Excuse me, if I suspect it to be less impartial than that !

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 12:16 PM

That was me forgot to name me self !.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 12:51 PM

Imagination can be a wonderful thing. Careful, though, pete there's a Guest around who's on the lookout for literary imperfections. I don't think your analogy's going to go down particularly well...

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

Which was a reference to pete's 10.41 post. I got waylaid.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:10 PM

That Guest is,however, more interested in logical imperfections.

Such as this creationist chestnut. Not only is the increasing complexity of our cells making naturalistic explanations highly unlikely..

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:10 PM

"However, a refusal to consider creation and ID has hampered research."

How has it hampered research? Who says that research has been hampered? Which specific areas of research have been hampered?

"And it was only because a dino bone had to be broken, that the soft tissue discovery was made ..."

You keep banging on and on and on and on etc., etc. about this f***ing "dino bone", don't you, Pete? But it has never been clear what your point is!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:38 PM

It doesn't really matter if a god exists or not. It's your moral code and how you behave that counts. Not what happens between your ears. If your belief/non-belief causes you to commit genocide - it's wrong. If your beliefs ask me to pay my tax dollars to fund the nativity scene at the local courthouse it's wrong. If your belief/non-belief makes you feel like it's acceptable behavior to insult others by calling them superstitious or sinners - it's wrong. Don't ask me to pray your prayers. And if I want to believe in an invisible old man in the sky it shouldn't matter to you. And if you own a church - pay your fair share of the tax burden.

I don't care if you go to church Sunday morning or if you stay home. Just don't attempt to force me to believe what you do. However you got to the moral code that makes sense to you is fine by me as long as you aren't killing, stealing or insulting me for whatever process I used to achieve my moral code.   

Behavior is the key. Not thought crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 01:55 PM

I wasn't aware that anyone was trying to force anyone to do anything here, though certain people of faith do force their beliefs on their children, lest we forget. If you call me a sinner you're probably right but you're being judgemental. If I call you superstitious, that is factually correct if you believe in a supernatural being, or fairies, or Friday 13th. I suppose I could use a more diplomatic word, but I'm not wrong. If you lived in the UK, your tax money would be used to help to maintain churches, to pay the expenses of bishops in the House of Lords, to pay for faith schools and to infest the BBC with Christian religious programmes. Those issues aside (and it sounds like you agree with the tax point), I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:01 PM

"If your belief/non-belief makes you feel like it's acceptable behavior to insult others by calling them superstitious or sinners - it's wrong."

Those who harbour superstitions are superstitious - it's as simple as that! I certainly don't feel guilty about 'calling-a-spade-a-spade'. Who said anything about sinners?

"And if I want to believe in an invisible old man in the sky it shouldn't matter to you."

It doesn't - unless, that is, you go on and on and on about it or try to convert me or others - particularly children - to your obsessive and unsubstantiated beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:08 PM

You two are both talking in circles. "It's not me - it's the other guys."

Bullshit. Why do you care what other people think?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 02:35 PM

Shimrod (Jack Vance reference?), I am sorry that your bus stopped outside a church that was closed and seemed to indicate a complete waste of effort. I am a member of a church that has been very close to being closed on more than one occasion, and I suspect there are senior people in the denomination it belongs to who would like to see it closed. But the congregation won't have it. They won't have it because the Church, which like the one you saw has fairly faded board giving the Minister's name hosts: an information office for the elderly; a computer centre for whoever needs it including the elderly (people who have been given an iPad by their grandchildren and havn't a clue how it works), jobseekers who need advice on applications; fitness classes for all ages; weightwatchers; cafes offering refreshments and light meals to people who can't afford the prices charged by some commercial outlets; fitness classes for all ages, yoga classes and much much more. This is what I feel the Church should be for. Pete won't agree, and you might think that the market should offer all these things, but I assure you it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 03:19 PM

"Shimrod (Jack Vance reference?"

Yes! Well spotted. Vance is one of my all-time favourites - are you a fan, dave?

I don't doubt that (some) churches do good. I just wish they'd find a way of ditching all of the irritating God stuff ... but then, I suppose they wouldn't be churches ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 03:47 PM

What don't you think I agree with Dave ?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:07 PM

".....creationist chestnut......"guest no ?       Well it was enough to turn the philosopher Antony Flew from his near life long atheism. Something more complex than any computer but supposedly self assembling !

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 04:19 PM

Yes, I think that the late Jack Vance was a hugely underestimated author, easily the equal of Ursula LeGuin, must have been one of the inspirations for GRR Martin (who I understand gave a tribute at Vance's funeral). Peter Jackson should take on Lyonesse.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 05:53 PM

So is yours a 'god of gaps' Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 06:35 PM

Yes, Dave, my secret is out! Vance is one of my all time favourite authors. I had to dispose of my SF library last year - but I kept all of my precious Vance volumes. I'm now in my 60s but I acquired some of those books in my late teens. There was no-one else like him - do you think that his work is really filmable?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 07:09 PM

"Bullshit. Why do you care what other people think?"

Wesley, I'm interested in what other people THINK. I'm not going to FIGHT AGAINST what people THINK. If you don't get what I'm saying by now, and I've been accused of repeating myself ad nauseam, you've not been reading my posts (I don't blame you). What you believe is none of my business. What you do with your beliefs may well be. It's as simple as that. What people do with their own children is not just their business. It's everybody's business, because those children will grow up and be in charge of my world one day. We are all entitled to not be experts and to blunder and to make bad decisions. But deciding to vigorously persuade at best, or force at worst, children to accept belief in doctrines that are not predicated on evidence is not your moral right. It's actually quite wicked.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 15 - 11:52 PM

 They "Handel" -ed that well." 

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:32 AM

Sorry about the thread creep!

Anyway, you may have noticed, Pete, that whenever you post on here I tend to ask you some pertinent questions and you tend not to answer them. In a previous thread I allowed your refusal to answer to get to me a bit and I insulted you and called you names. I suppose that, at this point, I'm supposed to make a grovelling apology - but I won't because, let's face it, you are a bit of a weird and obsessive creep who allows himself to be a mouthpiece for some very strange people. But leaving all of that unpleasantness aside, here are the two most pertinent questions of all:

Are the vast majority of scientists, working in the field of evolutionary biology and related fields, (a) deluded, or (b) participating in a vast (anti-religious?) conspiracy?

If all of the stuff you post on here is right, it MUST be one or the other. And if either one is right, the implications are ENORMOUS! So which is it, Pete, mass delusion or conspiracy? Of course, I don't expect you to answer but you SHOULD think about those ENORMOUS implications!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:34 AM

I'll give Keith that one.

At the rectory in Epworth, there is a section saying Charles Wesley was a pacifist. I suppose even he used metaphor then.

Like most things however, clever people using metaphor that is taken literally by people of more shallow intelligence doesn't make the metaphor so clever after all.

Hence pete taking the big book of fairy stories to be physically true or when Keith picked up on a song I had a hand in writing taking the piss out of homophobia, trying to tell everybody on Mudcat it was face value rather than farce value.

This thread, as ever, can't ever reach consensus whilst ever normal people are persecuting the little baby Jesus eh? Don't worry, if everybody was having a pop at Sheffield Wednesday I'd be up there resisting any logical stance that offended my faith.

zzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:36 AM

Yazidi community member has shared a gruesome story where one mother captured by the Islamic State terror group was told she ate the meat of her own toddler. The Yazidis have been speaking out about the atrocities they continue suffer at the hands of IS, and have criticized President Obama for not doing enough to help them

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:42 AM

Musket, why not post the lyrics of your anti-homophobia song?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:49 AM

Here it is,

While sitting in a hostelry, alone one Sunday night,
A fella came across to me and asked me for a light,
He offered me a cigarette; he bought me half a beer,
And we were getting friendly when he whispered in my ear.

cho: "My proper name is Clarence, but you can call me Clare,
    I wear sexy undies and I peroxide my hair,
    My politics are liberal, my outlook's liberal too,
    In fact my dear, I'm a little bit queer and I've taken a shine to you."

Well I supped my jar; I left that bar, faster than a scalded cat,
Caught the landlord's eye as I went by and I stopped just for a chat,
I said, "Hey, he's propositioned me. Do you allow that there 'ere?"
Well he didn't get riled, in fact he just smiled and he whispered in my ear.

Well off I did go, to the new disco, to find myself a bride,
Picked up this pearl of a pastry girl, took her for a ride,
In the back of the car, I got so far, then I froze with fear,
When I felt a lump and my heart went thump and a voice whispered in my ear.

Next day at eight, I called my mate, he promised not to tell,
By a quarter to nine the production line, the foreman knew as well,
They called me misses and they blew me kisses, the boss he got to hear,
For me he sent, to the office I went and he whispered in my ear.

I joined the health service, to train to be a nurse,
With stethoscope and fob watch, with pride I fair did burst,
My charge nurse said he'd teach me, the kiss of life technique,
Well first he turned the lights down and when he began to speak, he said,

"My proper name is Clarence, but you can call me Clare,
I wear sexy undies and I peroxide my hair,
My politics are liberal, my outlook's liberal too,
In fact my dear, I'm a little bit queer and I've taken a shine to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:58 AM

Your point being?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:30 AM

One of many, many good songs written by Mitch Mitchell.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:59 AM

Shimrod, I didn't think Tolkein was filmable, but given the LoR films and Avatar, I would have thought that Lyonesse could be filmed. Durdane or Tschai, probably not. Trouble might be that they would stuff it full of big names, and we would be left with a travesty like Sting and co made of Dune.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:31 AM

You're probably right, Dave. On balance, most of Vance's oeuvre should probably be left on the page.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:40 AM

Anyway, getting back to you, Pete. You've had plenty of time to think about my questions now. So, is modern evolutionary biology a vast conspiracy or a mass delusion? If you're right, about what you insist on calling "evolutionism" (LOL!), it must be one or the other. And if it's either of those things, what are the ENORMOUS implications of your choice?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:10 AM

Yeah Raggy. Mitch wrote some pearlers. I made a small contribution to that one although neither Mitch nor I wrote one of the particular verses in the post Keith just quoted.

Curiously, the first ever time Mitch sang that one outside of Worksop Folk Club was at my first wedding. The song was adopted by a bunch of gay blokes who drank in The Frog and Nightgown. The then landlord had a plaque put up saying Clarence Corner.

Sadly, we both stopped singing it when we realised that the mindset Keith is exhibiting isn't as exclusive as you'd think. Some idiots thought we were laughing with them not at them. The recently deceased Warren Mitchell spoke of his problem in the same way, Nasty people thinking Alf Garnett an orator rather than a fool.

When I stopped singing Clarence, I did add Si Khan's excellent Curtains of Old Joe's House to the repertoire. I still do a few of Mitch's numbers and am proud to have been a good friend of his for almost forty years. Nice to give Keith another opportunity to share the deliciously ironic lyrics again. You know, given Keith's twisting of public health figures to promote homophobia, it could have been written a retired PE teacher going out for a drink or to the disco.

I looked like a clown in Hertford town,
In a pub where the drinkers are deaf
They seem to enjoy my urban wit
Especially one called Geoff
He nodded particularly at my grasp of history
And my politics which are so queer
He said "don't talk bollocks, my real name is Betty Swollox"
And she whispered in my ear

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:47 AM

Musket,
neither Mitch nor I wrote one of the particular verses in the post Keith just quoted.

Funny, you said you did.
Musket - PM
Date: 25 Apr 15 - 04:58 AM


"By the way, as the bloke who wrote the car verse, it is Page 3 girl, not pastry girl"

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:13 AM

I would suggest that the following is the verse in question. It's one I certainly haven't heard before or heard Mitch talk about on the odd occasion we meet.

"I joined the health service, to train to be a nurse,
With stethoscope and fob watch, with pride I fair did burst,
My charge nurse said he'd teach me, the kiss of life technique,
Well first he turned the lights down and when he began to speak, he said"

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 10:26 AM

Yeah, that the one Raggy.

Mitch also included (most of the time) a verse about James Bond. I never used it but there again, I used to occasionally add a verse based on current affairs, mostly ditching it after a week or two and knocking up another.

It is his song by any and all ways of attributing it.

Keith? What are you wittering on about? Do you like my new verse? It does scan to the tune but looks a bit contrived on paper. A bit like your posts really.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 11:17 AM

Onward Teribus soldiers!
Writing about the war
With the blushes of Jesus
Looking down at the floor!
Keith the ever apologist
Ake'ing to impress
Paramilitary Christianity!
What a fucking mess....

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:08 PM

"...god of the gaps...." Charges guest whoever above. If said guest recalls ,I earlier said that being creationist has never stopped scientists past or present doing great science, and investigating (so far as possible) the processes God uses in nature.   Evolution of the gaps would be more apt. Intelligent design and creation must be discounted whatever the evidence, and believe by faith that there must be another explanation!.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 03:47 PM

And another "soldier" heard from:

Mosque Fire in California
By RICK ROJASDEC. 12, 2015

SAN BERNARDINO, Calif. — The authorities said Saturday that they were questioning a "person of interest" in the investigation into what appeared to be an arson fire that burned through part of a Southern California mosque just before a prayer service on Friday.

Congregants at the Islamic Society of Coachella Valley, in Coachella, had started arriving for 1 p.m. prayers when they heard a "loud boom" shortly after noon, Reymundo Nour, the mosque's acting imam, said.

Soon, the front of the mosque erupted into flames. More than a dozen firefighters arrived within minutes and contained the fire to the lobby, although there was smoke damage throughout the building, officials said. No one was injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 04:29 PM

What was the death toll in that mosque fire? Was that the pogrom you are hoping for?
I hear 51% of muslims in the us would prefer shara law over the constution.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 05:40 PM

I hear 51% of muslims in the us would prefer shara law over the constution.

There's medication you could take for those voices in your head.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:10 PM

So, Pete, is modern evolutionary biology a giant conspiracy or a mass delusion? I know that you're ignoring me. Presumably, if you could bring yourself to speak to me, you would tell me it's because I was rude to you. But both of us know that it's because you haven't really got a clue; you're just repeating stuff that you've read with no idea of how it relates to the real world. You know nothing about science, do you, Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 06:33 PM

FBI hate crime statistics 2014

Of the 1,140 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

    56.8 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders' anti-Jewish bias.

    16.1 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.

    6.2 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

    6.1 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.

    2.5 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.

    1.2 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.

    11.0 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion).

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:19 PM

"I hear 51% of muslims in the us would prefer shara law over the constution."

Er, you're not the same "Guest" that was taking the piss out of my literary deficiencies were you, by any chance? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 07:22 PM

"Are you", even. Eyesight deficiencies with Mudcat small print may not be quite the same thing as literary deficiencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:09 PM

Apparently "Guest" is a person of little or no education - spelling & composition being only one of several indicators.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:35 PM

During Friday prayer in the Al Nusra mosque in Berlin on July 11, Danish imam Abu Bilal Ismail urged listeners to kill Zionist Jews, Die Welt reports.

In a Youtube video clip of the sermon to which English subtitles have been added, the imam is filmed lashing out at Israelis and eventually saying that all Jews should be killed.

"Count them and kill them to the very last one. Don't spare a single one of them. Make them suffer terribily,"

Anyone care to make this into a song for muslims to sing? Do they sing?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 15 - 08:41 PM

Ayatollah Greg will sing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:13 AM

Raggy, Musket claimed to have written the car verse. I gave you the quote. I do not know why he denies it now.

I too thought the NHS verse might be his, but he denied that!

I said,
"Musket, you say you wrote the car verse, but I would have guessed the National Health verse that plays to the stereotype of the gay male nurse.
Perhaps you are ashamed of it.
You should be."

He replied,

"NHS? What has that to do with a twenty odd year old miner? Meeting a lass at a club resonates I suppose, but no lump, no Adams Apple either. Most folk songs I wrote were well before getting involved in healthcare,"

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:19 AM

Er, you're not the same "Guest" that was taking the piss out of my literary deficiencies were you, by any chance? :-)

No it isn't. I wasn't taking the piss. I was pointing out that you appeared not to be recognising a metaphor. Though I suspect it was deliberate to allow some point scoring in debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:35 AM

Sorry everybody but just got to clear something up.

Yes Keith, I did donate the car verse. (Mitch tidied it up though.). Where did I say otherwise? It's the NHS verse that appears to be subject to the oral tradition. Mind you, whoever wrote it may have done so joking on the basis that a couple of years after writing it, Mitch left the factory he worked at and trained as a nurse. We have something called a sense of humour around folk clubs. Or at least used to...

That's the problem with instinctive homophobia, you use it to drag others to your bitter twisted outlook.

It's Sunday. Shouldn't you be on your knees praying for the sanctimonious right to push your staunch stink of an agenda?

Whilst you are ploughing through old posts in a vain attempt to score saddo points, have a look for the one where you admitted to being a member of UKIP followed by the many posts denying it. Or perhaps where you stated that young men from a geographical location invented by Earl Mountbatten tended to be rapists. If they can be defined as having ancestral roots in Pakistan, then they must be well led, aware of what they are doing and anybody writing about them must be eminent eh?

Onward Christian Soldiers indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 06:20 AM

Huh?
On this thread you first said you had not written one of the verses quoted.
Then you went back on that and claimed the NHS verse as yours.
On the previous thread you denied the NHS verse and claimed the car one!

Lying is just a reflex with you.
Nothing you say has any credibility at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 06:49 AM

Keith ................ Musket said he DID write the "Car Verse" but he DIDN'T write the "NHS Verse"

He also said that Mitch tidied up the "Car Verse"

He also said the "NHS Verse" was the subject of the oral tradition.

It's quite simple and straightforward, well it is to most of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 07:24 AM

A hymn for GF:
"We are working for Allah and must bring Shariah to existence; we are committed to protecting Muslims from being annihilated by infidels. We are going to kill them. We will enter Churches and slaughter Christians and barracks. We are calling on all Muslims to come out and fight Jihad."

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 10:23 AM

Rag,
On this thread he first said,
" neither Mitch nor I wrote one of the particular verses in the post Keith just quoted. "

Not one! Not the car verse. Not the NHS verse.

You then suggested that his was the NHS verse and he agreed.

On the previous thread he was emphatic that he did not write the NHS verse, just the car one.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 10:44 AM

Keith have you been at the sherry?

" neither Mitch nor I wrote one of the particular verses in the post Keith just quoted. "

Meaning neither Musket or Mitch wrote ONE of the verses.

They DID write all the others but one (the NHS one) was written by someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 11:26 AM

With the advent of this new obnoxious "Guest" if it isn't BullshitBruce, its his clone. Where are the mods of yesteryear?

---

You think we like reading this shit? Probably no one has looked in for a while. ---mudelf busy elsewhere

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 12:36 PM

Onward, Muslim soldiers, launching holy war;
Double-crossing Jewry, as you've done before.
Hezbollah (Hamas too) speeds, as tensions grow,
Armageddon's battle, Persia's planners crow.

[Refrain (first two lines)]

Israel's mighty army moves on Muslim sod;
Infidels are treading where Mohammed trod!
They were not invited, just our captives three;
Done in hope of ransom, not in parity.

[Refrain]

Autocrats we cherish, freedom's rise can wane.
Europe will appease us, as they did in Spain.
G8s can quell but never 'gainst our march prevail;
We've Osama's promise that we cannot fail.

[Refrain]

One word, Jews and Christians: join, submit, belong;
Blend in, yield your choices to the Muslim throng;
Glory, laud, and honor unto Allah sing!
Back through countless ages, Mankind we shall bring.

[Refrain]

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

Well that rhymes. Can't be Keith then 😹😹

Nice to flush out those who see religion as more than voices in your head. Your mothers will be proud of you, I'm sure. Give it a few weeks and Keith will be quoting you.

Hey Keith! I am performing a concert soon where my contribution is songs from the Napoleonic wars. Perhaps you might want to sit at the back proclaiming that the soldiers were well led by caring generals with their welfare at heart? 😂😂😂😂

I'm out at a folk club later. Might give Clarence an airing, referring in the introduction to Mudcat (most folk club audiences have never heard of it) and the weird trolls it spawns, then add the verse I did above. Mind you, it is a bit contrived. I might alter it a bit and be a bit more slanderous. Doesn't matter. I don't give a flying really. Why do you do this Keith? Do you really think that nice respectable people such as Dave, Steve, Raggy and I sit down thinking how to make you look a TC?

Join reality one day. The drinks are good, the food acceptable and the outlook is stunning.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 01:01 PM

Yes Rag, Musket's statement could be ambiguous.
I read it with the emphasis on "one."

" neither Mitch nor I wrote ONE of the particular verses in the post Keith just quoted. "

That interpretation is confirmed by the rest of the sentence.

He did not say, " neither Mitch nor I wrote one particular verse in the post Keith just quoted. "

Very sloppy construction if he meant something different.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket changing his underpants
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 01:11 PM

Go on Keith. Keep digging.

You never did say whether you liked the verse I added for you. I don't do it for every Thomas, BigDick or Hairy bear, you know

👬

A pity McMusket washed his hands of Mudcat. I might paste the arse end of this thread to him in an email. He needs a chuckle right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 03:26 PM

You think we like reading this shit? Probably no one has looked in for a while. ---mudelf busy elsewhere

Much less obnoxious stuff has a history of disappearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 04:14 PM

Ambiguous my arse.

Yet another example of your inability to read or understand the written word.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 15 - 06:15 PM

Depends on what the Mudelf means by shit.

Oh, Raggytash. I'm sure Keith does understand and he does have ability. That's what makes his posts so offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 03:51 AM

Onward Christian Soldiers!

Like the retired priest who takes the occasional service in one diocese but had just been told by the bishop of the neighbouring diocese he can't help out there because the bishop found out he had married his husband. Apparently the bible says he was ok when in a civil partnership but not when their love for each other led to marriage.

Onward Christian Soldiers!

It all being done in your name, my Christian friends.

Onward Christian Soldiers!

Is turning the other cheek the same as looking the other way?

Onward Christian Soldiers!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:20 AM

The Oregon shooter who killed nine people at Umpqua Community College on Thursday reportedly singled out Christians for slaughter. Witness Anastasia Boylan told CNN that the shooter, identified by U.S. law enforcement as Chris Harper Mercer, said to one student as he fired at her:  "Because you're a Christian, you're going to see God in just about one second."

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:28 AM

Hi, Brucie!

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 11:06 AM

Oh, and Nameless One? Mercer was raised in a Christian household and admired & supported the Catholic I.R.A.

So I guess this is "Christian on Christian Crime".

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 12:21 PM

IRA as with many terrorist organisations used sectarian religion as a tool to further their more temporal aims.

Of course, whilst they were fucking up The UK, many Americans thought supporting terrorists and giving them money through NORAID and the likes was good fun.

Funny how it isn't so hilarious once terrorists learned how easy it is to get guns in The US.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 02:11 PM

I am not among your stereotypical "many". You might be refering to irish americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 02:35 PM

As is often the case when a horrific mass shooting like the one that took place this morning at the Washington D.C. Navy Yard happens, the descriptions of the alleged gunman from friends and acquaintances do not match up with the horrific nature of his crimes. In the case of Aaron Alexis, who authorities have identified as the man who murdered at least 12 before being killed himself, the most striking description to emerge is that he considered himself a Buddhist.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:11 PM

Guest Guest Guest. Bloody farce. You mods rattle on about trolls and usual suspects but you just let this ridiculous situation carry on. Completely idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:40 PM

Agreed. PLEASE bring back the rule that all "Guests" must post with an identifying name so that all our heads can stop whirling trying to keep up with who's who & who said what.... These Guest Guest Guest sequences that Steve draws attention to above really are becoming the crabgrass in the Mudcat lawn. Shouldn't even be impossible, I should think, to program so that any post with no name entered in the FROM line will not even take.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:52 PM

"Only if you could be the victim of your reprehensible and wicked crimes, you Christian Nazis "

From the manifesto of mass shooter Seung Hui Cho

Does free speech require a name? You want a name for ad hominem attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:57 PM

Also shouldn't be impossible to determine who these "Guests" actually are and/or if all the garbage is coming from the same "Guest". And if necessary, block 'em. Been done here to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 07:12 PM

Greg accusing others of posting garbage......now that's rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 07:57 PM

We do not want names for ad hominem attacks. That is a ridiculous assertion considering that most people here either have a regular soubriquet or post under their own names, and some of us who do post under our own names, me included, post fearlessly without bothering whether some clown might ad hominem us. Just stop being so falsely bloody "sensitive", aka so bloody full of your own importance. The truth is the other way round: we have at least one person, possibly several, who wish to post anonymous bile with impunity, as you do. The only person who ever calls me antisemitic, for example, is an anonymous guest, almost certainly YOU, so do me a favour and cut out your tiresome hypocrisy. This sort of nonsense is all over the internet and it is most unbecoming of this website, which has pretentions to erudition, to put up with it. The answer is blindingly simple and incredibly democratic: you don't get to post if you're not logged in, and you don't get to post unless you have a unique user name. There should never, EVER, be a post under "Guest", and I don't give a damn whether or not my supposed allies here agree with that or not. There is actually not one good reason why, on a website of this nature, anonymity should be necessary. Some of the finest folk musicians and writers about folk post here either under their real names or, at worst, under a very lightly disguised name. So what I propose is a compromise. You can keep your anonymity. I neither know nor care who pete or akenaton really is, but at least we know that when they post it's the same person every time. That's all I'm saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 08:54 PM

Sorry if i upset your anti christian applecart with some facts that you want to call garbage. Anything that does not agree with your stream of rants is automatically garbage. Who is being self important? Who is being self righteous?

Who is Mahmoud Ali Ehsani

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:00 PM

More important, Guest, is who is consistently being an irrelevant bigoted asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 09:18 PM

Well, Greg, this particular, rather illiterate Guest can't even distinguish between me and you. I never use the word garbage for a start (as a Brit, I prefer the word rubbish). What he, she or it calls "rants" are closely-argued points, delivered coolly. From this Guest, there is never a single point developed beyond a short (unpunctuated) sentence. One suspects that it's because they've probably read something in the Daily Mail or in a Murdoch rag, been suckered in hook, line and sinker, and can only regurgitate. It's impossible to take someone seriously who hides under "Guest".

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:26 AM

What I find curious is how the anonymous guests amongst us who promote equality and shout down bigotry get our posts deleted but if you post right wing, bigoted distortions such as the diatribe above, the moderators allow it to stay.

I post anonymously to ensure that if anybody does address my posts, it is the post rather than the person sending it that is considered. I got the idea from when a number of people with slightly different views all logged in as Musket. It was delightful to see the effect on those who prejudge. If I actually knew anybody here on Mudcat I'd try the same thing.

To insist on prejudging a view based on your prejudice of the person writing it says a lot.

Look at how anything from Dave the Gnome is trolled almost immediately by Teribus or Keith A of Hertford, or how anything the reactionary idiots on here see that offends them has to be Musket. Look at how anything Joe Offer says on a thread where religion raises its head is seen as the Vatican mouthpiece. Revel in anything by Jim Carroll being seen as communist.

No. I don't even blame Bruce for remaining anonymous. Although with his take, anonymity spares his embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:59 AM

Using buzz words such as equality and bigotry, I'd ask you to be a Musket but we ditched it a while ago. That said, I pop the odd post and I have seen one or two that sound like Nick, although I didn't bother asking when we met for a slurp the other week when I was in London.

The guest has a point and so do those saying otherwise. The very obvious troll statements are easy to spot and dismiss, even for a moderator I would have thought. I have had a couple of mine purely anonymous but that was forgetting to put my name rather than meaning not to.

I also spent a few months ignoring Mudcat but then popped back for some history of a song and one thing led to another. An itch you just can't scratch.

Anyway, being ones self does provoke the likes of Keith to try and have a pop, as in a few posts up on this thread, and without being able to rattle his cage for a reaction, the BS section of Mudcat would be boring. For instance..

Hey Keith! On the subject of onward Christian soldiers, remind us again how less than 600,000 out of a population of over 60,000,000 means "the majority of The UK are practicing Christians!"

It was great. You had to be there. You were? Good, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:31 AM

I'm sorry but I don't agree. If Jim perceives that he's being tarred a communist (that wouldn't bother me, actually), or if Joe perceives that he's tarred as a Vatican mouthpiece (which I've never seen in any case), then they have several options, the best and easiest of which is to rise above such idiocy and just carry on. Smearing people, in the eyes of every decent person here, says a damn sight more about the smearer than it does about them. I get smeared by Guests more than by anyone else. The biggest complaint on this website is about insults. The plain fact is that a culture of unlogged-in Guests and self-important anonymity positively encourages that behaviour. The Gaughan forum allows pseudonyms situate your real name won't be googled, but everybody knows who you are. There is little need for moderation and insults are almost unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:40 AM

Situate? So that. Idiotic iPhone.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 06:15 AM

I don't see insults as being a particular issue. When people start to abuse me it is an obvious sign of having no real argument. The insults are blatantly untrue, irrelevant and usually pretty infantile anyway.

I agree with Steve about the anonymous guests although the point about addressing issues and not posters is a good one. However, it is obvious when people are attacking names rather than ideas and, very regularly, things are ascribed to me or Steve or Musket or anyone when it was someone entirely different who said it. I have even seen someone get attacked on a thread that they have had no input to! It gets quite funny at that stage :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 06:49 AM

A complete prat, of which there are two in this thread posting as Guests (one Guest in this thread is not a prat as it happens), attacks posters with impunity, yet such twits are the first to bleat about how vital it is for them to protect themselves. Bullshit. They must think they're as important as Paul McCartney or Prince Philip or something. I'm far more inclined to bite back at an anonymous Guest who's being an idiot than at some of the confirmed idiots here. There is very little positive input here from unlogged-in people posting as Guests. Allowing that freedom is indefensible on any rational grounds. It debases the culture of the place. A respectable and estimable website such as this one should not be open to drive-by offensiveness. You can't even look at the posting history of any particular Guest as they're all bundled together as one. Stupid. Not all anonymous Guests insult, but a lot of them do. "You can post with a unique user name when you're logged in." What's so bloody hard about that? What's so restrictive or undemocratic? You're still just as anonymous! If you feel got at you can change your user name anyway. Let reason prevail and let's all know consistently who we're talking to, even if it's just to a nickname.

Subject: RE: BS: Onward Christian Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 07:02 AM

"More important, Guest, is who is consistently being an irrelevant bigoted asshole."
A typical ad hominem attack. If you think it is not against a person rather than the truthfulness of what the person submits, please define ad hominem.

Sawzaw got the last word on this one.