History and mythology of WW1

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 02:07 PM

I see that the discussion has come down to accusations that some believe that deaths don't matter. They are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:59 PM

All supposition.

No.
No-one could have an opinion that deaths do not matter!
That is so obvious that no-one would think to say it.

Why would anyone suspect that some agenda driven shit stirrer would accuse you of not caring about deaths, just because you fail to say that you do?

Have you anything to say on the issues Dave, or are you just going to make scurrilous, offensive personal attacks on those who just state the actual history?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:35 AM

he did not feel the need to actually state the obvious.

All supposition. The fact is that only one thing of any importance – THAT YOU END UP ON THE WINNING SIDE was the statement made and that is a fact. Only one thing = It is only this. Of any importance = nothing else is important. Tell us how it can possibly mean anything else.

We all have family who fought in various wars. No one else is saying that there is only one thing that matters.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:04 AM

Because the need to conserve your men as far as possible is a given.
It goes without saying.
You are trying to make something out of nothing because you have nothing.

T's son served in Afghanistan.
He has often posted in support of that war.
He never stated that deaths matter, but only someone with an nasty agenda and no scruples would claim that he did not care how many of our people died there just because he did not feel the need to actually state the obvious.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 09:26 AM

OK - I missed that. I mentioned that I believe that this thread denigrates the dead. In my opinion it still does. There is no 'disgusting lie'.

There is no inference in teribums statement. He says unequivocally If you are involved in a war there is only one thing of any importance – THAT YOU END UP ON THE WINNING SIDE.

Not the main thing. Not the most important thing. But the only thing of importance. Rules of warfare are not important. Why it happened is not important. Human life is not important. Lets say it again in case you missed it. only one thing of any importance – THAT YOU END UP ON THE WINNING SIDE How on earth can that be interpreted as anything else by anyone but you?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 09:23 AM

Jim says it was a quabble not a squabble. Thats like a squabble, except over something more trivial and with more deaths.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:40 AM

DtG,
I did not say anything about denigrating the dead
You did.

Ake,
Why on earth would you want jeri to close this thread while others like "Peeing in a onesie" are left on the board?

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 02 Jan 16 - 02:33 PM
Because the peeing in a onesie thread is mildly amusing and does not denigrate the deaths of 17 million people?

If that does not demonstrate that you consider the loss of life unimportant I don't know what does.

You do not know much then Dave.
He does not say any such thing, you just pretend to infer that because you can not challenge anything actually said.

He has consistently said that the ONLY important thing in a conflict is winning.

It goes without saying that losses are a bad thing silly.
Of course they wanted to win with the minimum of loss. All armies do and always have, if only because soldiers are limited asset.

Jim,
obscene number of young man who were sacrificed in a world-wide quabble over colonies.

It was not a "squabble over colonies." Britain did not intend to be in the war until Belgium was invaded.

The fact ids that everything you have said has been challenged -

Yes it has, even though I only say what the historians have established.
Your challenges are just from your empty heads. No historian believes those myths you cling to.

Or have you found one yet?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:18 AM

Hey - I had bacon and eggs this morning and I am putting my wellies on in a few minutes! :-)

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:22 AM

The more I read from ignorant savages such as Teribus, the more I see why extremist political thugs manage to crowd up their rallies.

Dear God....

The Daily Mail, The Aryan Torch.. I expect such twisting and misrepresentation on those extreme websites if I were sick enough to log on, not a folk forum where, let's face it, most on here eat meusli and wear sandals.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:15 AM

"the fact that you consider human life unimportant" - yet another baseless accusation thrown out - care to give an example

Yes

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 27 Dec 15 - 11:37 PM
...
If you are involved in a war there is only one thing of any importance – THAT YOU END UP ON THE WINNING SIDE.
...

If that does not demonstrate that you consider the loss of life unimportant I don't know what does. No matter how you try to wheedle your way out of it, it is what you said for all to see.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:09 AM

"the fact that you consider human life unimportant" - yet another baseless accusation thrown out - care to give an example - Not a FACT at all Gnome just your opinion which is basically worth S.F.A., made as it is on absolutely no knowledge at all.

"He has consistently said that the ONLY important thing in a conflict is winning. Only is an exclusive term meaning nothing else."

Dancing on the head of your pin again my bespectacled, rotund, balding little pedant. Unfortunately you seemed to have missed something and lost touch with one of the realities of war (Maybe GwegF will get on your case about that but I think not). When nations go to war with one another it normally results in death, or has your experience been different to that Gnome? As Keith A has said with regard to the First World War WE declared war on Germany and WE were instrumental in the ultimate defeat of Germany yet WE suffered the least number of dead, and as the number of dead seems to be your most important metric by which you appear to judge the conduct of that conflict then suffering the the least number of dead of the powers who were in it from start to finish is a very good indicator of just how generally well led our troops were.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:02 AM

I don't understand what I would be letting myself in for if I took up knitting or sky diving. But that doesn't make me stupid. I think I know what knitting and sky diving mean but I'm sure once I did them, my understanding and perspective would alter.

Please Mr Hertford, don't purposely confuse perception with understanding or commenting with opinion. It doesn't do you any favours, especially when you are trying to put forward an absurd narrative of history.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:00 AM

So, no answer to my post of 17 Jan 16 - 04:48 AM then Keith? I did not say anything about denigrating the dead and it was no attack to say you should seek forgiveness for attempting to twist the words of others. Does not 'the only thing that is important' mean that nothing else is important or not?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:51 AM

"It does not need to be said that winning should be done with the minimum of loss."
Not the "minumum loss" in question but the obscene number of young man who were sacrificed in a world-wide quabble over colonies.
"The fact is that you can not challenge anything we say,"
The fact ids that everything you have said has been challenged - cock-ups, cannon fodder mentality, poor leadership by miltatry and politicians who were at each others throats while young man were dying in the mud in their hundreds of thousands, the lying and misrepresentation that conned young man into joining, the veterans own descriptions of their experiences..... you have responded to none of it (except the veterans bit, which you described as "lies and gullibility")
Your jingoism has been rammed up your arses over and over again - you have yet to notice it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:50 AM

"The Professor (and TerraByte as well) forgets quite a few things as a matter of course and especially when those things (like reality) contradict what he has to say."

And it always never ceases to amaze me GwegF that for some reason that you can never actually put your finger on, or give any examples of any of those things - After all clown you've now had over two years to do that.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:14 AM

It does not need to be said that winning should be done with the minimum of loss.
The fact is that you can not challenge anything we say, so you attack us personally with the disgusting lie that we denigrate the dead.
That is point scoring of the most despicable kind.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:48 AM

the fact that you consider human life unimportant ?

He has said nothing to justify that slur.

He has consistently said that the ONLY important thing in a conflict is winning. Only is an exclusive term meaning nothing else. Or is this another one of your infamous changes of meaning? Probably time you went to church to pray for forgiveness, Keith.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:22 AM

the fact that you consider human life unimportant ?

He has said nothing to justify that slur.
It goes without saying that you should try to win with the minimum of loss, and Britain did that better than any other army in the field.

of those respecting the dead, he forgot to mention the two Daves, Raggytash, Musket, Jim Carroll and others, hopefully even myself.

It is not respectful in the least to accuse them of being so stupid that they were unable to understand the cause for which they fought, especially when there is hard historical evidence that they did, and that they believed the cause worth fighting for to the end of the war and after.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 06:56 PM

Yes, thought so, teribums. No answer to the fact that you consider human life unimportant so you resort to abuse. Not that you are any good at that but at least it shows your true colours. If that is what you consider winning it is little wonder that you think of those who lead thousands to their deaths so good at their jobs.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:30 PM

Perhaps when Keith A of Hertford says the names of those respecting the dead, he forgot to mention

The Professor (and TerraByte as well) forgets quite a few things as a matter of course and especially when those things (like reality) contradict what he has to say.

It has been ever thus.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:08 PM

Perhaps when Keith A of Hertford says the names of those respecting the dead, he forgot to mention the two Daves, Raggytash, Musket, Jim Carroll and others, hopefully even myself.

That alone states the reason for his confusing posts. Perhaps he might enlighten us all how to score points in their game?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:39 PM

Gnome you are a 24 carat idiot.

The topic under "discussion" (At least by one side) happens to be the "History and mythology of WW1" - Not a case of point scoring or winning.

"you and your pals have not put up one single argument that withstands even the most cursory examination"

Simple statement of fact with regard to what has been put up so far.

And YES Gnome if you find yourself in any conflict from a fist fight to a full scale global war the only important thing is that you win - otherwise, you clown, you should not have got yourself into the fight in the first place.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:24 PM

From Keith

The appalling cost in lives is understood by all, and is a given.

From teribums

If you are involved in a war there is only one thing of any importance – THAT YOU END UP ON THE WINNING SIDE.

So human life is not important.

Need I say more?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:10 AM

The appalling cost in lives is understood by all, and is a given.

No-one is "denigrating" the dead, except those who call them dupes with no understanding of why they fought. Teribus, Hilo and I respect them for their belief in a just cause and their willingness to make a stand against an imperialist, militarist, cruel invader.

The "petty point scoring " is all done by the comrades.
What we do is put the actual history before them, which they feel qualified to reject even though they can find no historian who supports their baseless beliefs.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 09:34 AM

you and your pals have not put up one single argument that withstands even the most cursory examination

The main point of my argument is that this petty point scoring exercise is of very little significance compared to 17 million lives. You seem to consider that of little importance.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 09:06 AM

"they seem to think they are winning something"

Not at all Gnome - what we are and have been doing for quite sometime now has been knocking all those "Revisionist Myths" on the head and you and your pals have not put up one single argument that withstands even the most cursory examination.

"I think one of them was that the war had to be fought, and we see from Adonis and many others that it did not. It was avoidable, and once started it could have been ended early. All of those lives could have been saved." - Academic Dave

Adonis was not alive at the time Grey and those who supported him were - The decision of the British Government OF THE DAY is the only thing that counts

It could not have been ended early in any manner that would have been acceptable to the people of France or of Belgium.

As for saving lives? The following lives would not have been saved.

The war on the eastern front would have been fought with it's consequent loss of life.

The war in Luxembourg, Belgium and France would have been fought with it's consequent loss of life.

And as YOU are allowed to state what WOULD HAVE BEEN then please afford me the same opportunity.

Europe would have been plundered and impoverished in the decades following the peace imposed by Germany. The Germans would NOT have to have facilitated Lenin's trip to Moscow to knock Russia out of the war, the terms and conditions of the peace treaty dictated to the defeated Russians would have brought about the revolution and the loss of land would have made it's effects that much harder on the population of Russia. Any destabilisation on Germany's newly established eastern border would have led to further incursions and loss of Russian territory.

With former French and Belgian colonies to use as bases the Germans would have fomented trouble throughout the world damaging Britain's trade and interests.

Germany would ultimately take on the British with an Army ten times that of Great Britain's and Great Britain fighting without a single ally would have lost that war.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 08:37 AM

NINE out of TEN of them did GUEST,R Sole - 16 Jan 16 - 02:48 AM

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 06:24 AM

I also quoted Macmillan, Pennel, Snow, Boot, Sheffield and others stating the same view.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 06:22 AM

quoting Paxman of all people,

Paxman was just the presenter. The history was provided by the OU History Faculty.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:22 AM

Yes it does Keith, you have repeatedly stated that the war "had to be fought" (quoting Paxman of all people, but you have supported that view).

I acknowledged that there was a strong antiwar movement in Britain, but that was prior to the invasion of Belgium.

I have expressed no view of events, politics or diplomacy before the invasion.

After the invasion the government believed that war had to be fought and so did the people.
Current historians do too, with the exception of Ferguson and possibly Adonis.

Does any historian agree with you opinion that the war "could have been ended early."
Is that just a whim or is it based on any actual knowledge?
How could the Germans have agreed to withdraw to their borders, and how could France and Belgium have accepted anything less?

DtG, I think the comrades are desperate for their political arguments to win out over the findings of historians.
All T and I are doing is putting forward the actual history which happens to contradict their politically inspired but baseless views.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:23 AM

"politicians could have avoided it but did not do so" - from Academic Dave

Tell us how "politicians could have avoided it" especially British politicians in the rapidly deteriorating situation involving the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia and their respective allies. I think previously you were of the opinion that it could have been avoided by simply giving in to the aggressors demands (Serbia by the 25th July had already agreed to nine out the ten of the Austrian demands - Germany pushed the Austro-Hungarians into demanding full capitulation - now where exactly did Great Britain feature in this loop?).

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:58 AM

Whoops! Premature submit button. Damn you tablet!

...contest? Ake, seemingly. Well, I would be worried if I had ake cheering from the sidelines for me. Still, from a certain stand point they cannot fail to win. No one else knows the rules. And of course they are suffering fewer losses than those poor blokes in the trenches.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:54 AM

Teribus,

I think we have lost what Keith's three points were, but I think one of them was that the war had to be fought, and we see from Adonis and many others that it did not. It was avoidable, and once started it could have been ended early. All of those lives could have been saved. The blame falls solely on the politicians of the day, on all sides but ours certainly bear their fair share of the blame.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:49 AM

What makes me laugh most about the terrible two's postings is the way they seem to think they are winning something. Who is the arbiter of this contest

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:46 AM

Yes it does Keith, you have repeatedly stated that the war "had to be fought" (quoting Paxman of all people, but you have supported that view).

It did not have to be fought, politicians could have avoided it but did not do so. It was the fault of those politicians, and 17 million deaths can be laid at their door.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:48 AM

So we have a professor and a sanitary towel on the thread?

No wonder the poor soldiers are still dead. If we can prove they were well led, they might all come back to life and start singing.

🎤All the girls in France bought a ticket to a dance
Singing Nelly rub your belly close to mine.


Poor sods never stood a chance.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 04:30 PM

Oh, grow up Raggytash......sheesh!

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 01:08 PM

I believe Territowelling is used for making Nappies is it not?

Could I suggest you go and change yours before commenting again?

The reason for saying that will be obvious to anyone with a degree of intelligence.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 01:02 PM

"Guest Dave, you will find that Terrichocolates has no regard for educational status. Possibly because he has little education to speak of himself."

Obviously sufficient education, reasoning power, logic and perspective to be able to run circles round you in any discussion related to this, or any other historical topic Raggy. In support of that statement I quote the following written by you Raggy;

"You are obviously interested in the subject and far more knowledgeable than some others on this forum."

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 12:54 PM

Oh Terrieschocolates what a surprise to find you responded as you did.

You really have a problem with people who have taken advantage of a good formal education don't you.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 12:52 PM

I have no idea what could have given rise to the rather aggressive "actually Shaw" remark. And when people called me "Shaw" at school I refused to respond. Call me Steve if you don't mind, Woodcock. Everybody else can manage to hate me just about little enough to achieve it.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 12:50 PM

Very true GUEST - 15 Jan 16 - 10:01 AM

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 10:01 AM

Never confuse intelligence with education.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 10:00 AM

"It is vitally important to every man, woman and child irrespective of their colour, creed or kind, no matter what course they follow in life."

I am sure that Pélé discovered that it was the schooling and the degrees he never obtained or studied for that were vitally important in making him the success he was (Actually Shaw it was playing indoor football - taught him to be quicker and think quicker on his feet), exactly the same as a host of many other great sportsmen and women, entertainers, artists, artisans and craftsmen across a whole variety of walks of life.

In stating what you have said all you do is demonstrate once again that you can only think of people in terms of tired old cliches and stereotypes that comply with the "socialist" mould.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 09:46 AM

"The phrase "I studied at the university of life" is often on their lips. What a trite, inane, uneducated comment to make."

I am sure Andrew Carnegie would agree with you concerning his "alma mater".

Likewise Shaw I've worked with some brilliant engineers who did not have one once of commonsense when it came to putting their ideas and solutions into practice.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

Heheh. When I was a student working on Radcliffe Parks in my holidays I had to team up with a Scottish bloke to look after Ainsworth bowling green. They got rid of him after a couple of weeks because he couldn't keep the mower straight and there was a near- insurrection by the home team. He also had a habit of not turning up for the afternoon as he was enjoying his liquid lunches a little too much. Told me every day in a very aggressive manner, he did, that my studenthood was a bloody waste of time, that he possessed what no student ever had - common sense. Six months later I heard that his alcoholism had killed him.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 08:03 AM

I have often found that people who do not have a good education are often the same people who aver it is not vital.

It is vitally important to every man, woman and child irrespective of their colour, creed or kind, no matter what course they follow in life.

It's strange but most of the people who do not agree with this sentiment are more often than not ill educated and/or are jealous of those with a good education.

The phrase "I studied at the university of life" is often on their lips. What a trite, inane, uneducated comment to make.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 07:44 AM

Raggy is Keith A a "Professor"? If he is not then please do not refer to him as such if discussing education.

"you should be saying that a good education is vital in whichever field you choose to follow.you should be saying that a good education is vital in whichever field you choose to follow."

Why should he be saying that Raggy? Examples in the real world show us often enough that while education may be considered as being important it has never ever been considered as being a vital requirement in order to succeed in many walks of life.

Neither the Duke of Wellington, or Horatio Nelson were celebrated academics (Unlike GUEST, Dave) of any note yet both carved out astonishingly successful careers as military commanders. In the Duke of Wellington's case fox hunting and commonsense taught him more about being able to "read" a landscape than any book learning, it almost gave him a sixth sense when it came to being able to predict what lay on the "other side of the hill".

Keep up the good work boys, over two years yet and you have still not been able to counter a single point put in support of the three points originally detailed by Keith A - One more year to go and had you really applied yourselves to the task you could all have earned a degree in History - only trouble is that would have definitely exploded all those myths you cling to so dearly.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 05:49 AM

Frankly Keith I find your response astonishing. Surely as someone who taught for their career you, of all people, should be extolling the virtue of a good education, you should be saying that a good education is vital in whichever field you choose to follow. You as an educator, as someone to whom people trust the education of their children, should be shouting from the rooftops the need for a good education. The fact that you excuse Haig for being academically lacking is nothing short of breathe taking.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 04:04 AM

Dave, none of that contradicts anything I have claimed about WW1.
Rag, what great generals were also diligent schoolboys and students?
Musket, it was never his nickname. It was coined by revisionist long after his death.