BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 12:37 PM

'Mother Teresa sainthood'....so what??

It just presents some bigots with an opportunity to once again flaunt their colours.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 12:31 PM

'Mother Teresa sainthood'....so what??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 12:08 PM

come on face the truth, we all know every form of VD is caught from sitting on public toilet seats...

Should all public toilets be treated as suspect and closed down and tested for contagion...???

oh, come to think of it, our tory council has already closed down all our public toilets.
Despite the increasingly elderly reactionary populace who habitually vote for them...?????

I got once got a rash on my knob from sensitivity to latex.
so it only stands to reason that condoms should be also banned to prevent the devil's own sex ailments & diseases....!!!!! 😈

Do you know what, by this logic, I seriously ought to become a catholic...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: olddude
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 11:21 AM

Prettypplease with sugar, can we be nice

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 08:34 AM

Not sure why my name has been mentioned, or why Joe accused me of any kind of phobia.
I supported gay marriage in every discussion here.
When people have made statements I knew to be untrue about infection, I corrected them with direct quotes from our official government site.
That is all.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 07:35 AM

Our Church

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 07:22 AM

No thank you Jack, even though you seems familiar with the "ambiance" at Perth, I think I will stick to our little local church which has served our community well and which I have kept wind and watertight for all of my working life.
It cannot boast graffiti, but it shelters some of the kindest and best of people who do not look down upon those who don't share their faith.   Religion is rarely mentioned here, but there is a purely personal bond between God and people, which I find inspirational.

Maybe someday I'll have the strength to join them.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 07:07 AM

"akenaton" might not be welcome at many churches these days, but perhaps the Church of the Nazarene in Perth might do (the one Brian Souter goes to).

It's a few yards from Perth Bus Station (almost exclusively serving Souter's buses), which has one of the filthiest gents' loos I've ever been in. And with the largest collection of "meet me here for cock fun" graffiti you'll find in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 06:56 AM

I am not yet a believer Jim, though I intend to go to Church this week, our minister is delivering an interesting sermon, and if there is a God, I have something I wish him to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 06:50 AM

"Either acquaint yourself with the facts"
Whether that is the case or not - s f what
Homosexuality is a natural state for millions of people - stop reveling in the suggestion that it might possibly cause people an early death - do you really believe that homosexuals are not aware of the risks of unprotected sex?
Stop making it an evangelical religious crusade - that is every bit as sick as having HIV.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 05:04 AM

I'm sorry Michael, but I must just correct Jim on one point.

From CDCP fact sheet......How common is syphilis among MSM?

Between 2013 and 2014, the number of reported primary and secondary (P&S) cases increased by 15%. Most cases are among MSM. In 2014, 83% of the reported male P&S syphilis cases where sex of sex partner was known were among gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men.

Either acquaint yourself with the facts....or STFU.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 05:00 AM

I visited Mother Teresa's orphanage in Calcutta in 1986 when travelling in India. I only spent a day there helping cuddle the babies and change nappies. I was impressed that she was doing something - the facilities were sparse but the babies were loved and cared for.

I practise a form of Hindu meditation which is similar to Tibetan Buddhism, and have done so for 42 years. I don't care what someone's beliefs are, it's what they do with them that matters. There's a lot of people who have a life because of Mother Teresa, she had the willpower to make something happen and has saved tens of thousands of lives through her orphanages.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 04:48 AM

How a thread on a notable public figure who, as I remarked above, has a knack of polarising opinion, has contrived to become a further victim of the o-so-predictable bogged-down drift into yet another Ake·+·1·or·2·others getting accused by the Usual Suspects of homophobia [and worse] for quoting some statistics from what seem to be respectably established sources about the distribution of HIV, I really cannot make out. But I surely can't be the only one absolutely fed up with this mulberry·bush which keeps obtruding on to threads on the most discrete and heterogeneous topics for said Usl Susps to dance around; not once but again & again & again
ad·∞. Could we not leave the variants of tastes in methods of achieving sexual satisfaction and getting one's rocks off, and stick just for once in a way to the topic notionally in✍ --

just for this once.

Please.

Prettyprettyprettypretty please.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 04:27 AM

" I have never described homosexuals as "disease carriers"
Yes you have - you have constantly associated homosexuality with AIDS (as you do here) - you actually used the term "Gay Plague" way back and were jumped on for doing so.
It has been pointed out that syphilis is a far more widespread condition (a point you never responded to) - would you use this as to criticise heterosexuality they way you have used AIDS?
You appear to approach this as a Gods punishment for being evil - when will you and your kind get it into your bigoted heads that homosexuality is a natural, unavoidable way of life for a large percentage of the people of this planet - how many exactly we are unable to estimate because they have been driven into silence by hatred and fear and bigotry such as your own - even to the point of criminalisation and the threat of chemical castration - as happened to one of Britain's great war heroes, Alan Turin.
As with many other age old evil practices, such as Capital Punishment - the world is now moving on - homosexuality is accepted in most civilised countries for what it is - a natural state of being - even the Irish Church has now been forced to accept that it needs to "get its act together" after the landslide decision of gay marriage here.
You accused us atheists of having an "ideological" attitude to religion (you have yet to respond to our replies)
I suggest that your ignorant, hate/fear filled phobia is purely ideologically driven.
I'm not gay, but if I were, your postings would be a good reason not to be a member of a discussion forum I enjoy being part of.
Similarly (nothing to do with you), following the recent Islamophobic saturation postings (over 200 by, I suspect, by one person posing as two) I would hate to be a Muslim on this forum.
The extremist right seem to be out on a Christmas spree.
Give us a break
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 15 - 03:49 AM

My good friend Musket, of whom I used to be myself for that matter, has agreed that Keith has not opposed gay marriage but supports the erroneous conclusions in health data that Akenaton uses to vilify gay people. Having a view on the rights of others is a view, it's the dark art of lying to spread hate that is wrong. Keith can speak for himself but he has defended the conclusions Akenaton gets from his neo nazi website sources

It's all there if you just search. I did just before posting this purely to make sure my recollection was accurate. It takes effort to read such filth for anyone, but for a happily married gay man it makes you shudder that someone who claims to be a member of the human race can write such stuff, disappointing that Mudcat doesn't follow its moderation policy and awful that it is tolerated by so many.

I also question Joe's take on hatefulness. Saying people should be on a register and forced to take involuntary medical exams for no useful purpose whatsoever whilst encouraging suppression of equal rights where such people are concerned isn't hateful? Calling them perverts should at least have raised an eyebrow. Luckily, no medical person in The UK can touch people without their consent.

Pathetic Joe Offer. Absolutely pathetic. Musket Ian says he likes you. I trust his judgement but you make it bloody hard for me to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: olddude
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 08:16 PM

Just a simple suggestion, I sometimes stir the pot just because it can get boring, but can we be nice to each other now please. Don't you think that we are all good people here and you see how everyone rallieswhen ssomeone is sick or needs help. It's the holidays, so can we try..to let it go. I hate seeing good people at each other at this time. After the holidays we can stir it up.. Deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:58 PM

You are being untruthful Jim, I have never described homosexuals as "disease carriers"

I have reprinted data from the Centre for Disease Control and Public Health England which states unequivocally that MSM are massively more effected by HIV and other STDs than any other study demographic.
That does not equate to saying that every homosexual has HIV or is promiscuous.

Why do you and Team Musket not report these health authorities to the police for spreading hatred? Because you would look foolish and possibly be charged with wasting police time.

Jim you lie and distort my words at every opportunity....Why?

Shooting the messenger?


Joe, Keith has said that he does not oppose "gay marriage" he is abused here because he supported my right of free speech and opposes personal abuse, such as you have been subjected to regarding your faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:07 PM

"I do not detect hatefulness in what they say. I think it is fear and misinformation on their part - but I think they need to be persuaded, not attacked."
Describing them as disease carriers -as he has, and describing them as being "persuaded" (presumabley "shown the error of their ways) expresses the contempt and lack of understanding that typifies your church
Neither speak well for you as a Christian nor him as a human being
It is the type of primative ignorance that got people burned at the stake.
You god forgive you both
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,😇
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:04 PM

"I seem to have a better grasp of the problems associated with male homosexuality than any of my opponents."

So do you recommend vaseline or WD40 ?

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 05:31 PM

Why would anyone "fear" homosexuals? Lately I have worked for a Lesbian couple (retired) and two single homosexuals who were in a relationship and are now living separately.
Absolutely no problem to me.
Regarding information, I seem to have a better grasp of the problems associated with male homosexuality than any of my opponents.
The figures and studies are available to all, so I believe that their ignorance is obviously wilful.


What I do fear is idiotic legislation which will in my opinion weaken society...this legislation is beginning to intrude into all facets of society, not just homosexuality.

The use of the word "homophobe" to close down discussion of the legislation is simply a tactic, like using "racist" to describe all opponents of unregulated immigration, or "god botherers" to describe people of faith.

Cowardly and ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:55 PM

Direct quote of the entire text of one email from me to Musket, 22 Jan 2014:

Well, Ian - I think it is homophobia according to its pure definition, fear of homosexuals. I don't think that Ake and Keith are voluntarily homophobic because I do not detect hatefulness in what they say. I think it is fear and misinformation on their part - but I think they need to be persuaded, not attacked.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:19 PM

You confuse people sitting on the sidelines assessing the role of religion with the very few (none who have posted here or possibly elsewhere on Mudcat) who actively oppose religion as a concept.

They do exist, as do the petes of this world who are as insane on the other seat on the seesaw.

I wouldn't like to publish your email sent to me personally Joe, but please re read it and either inform this thread of what it says or accept your conclusion that Akenaton had not professed homophobic views backed by lies to persuade others of his personality disorder.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:03 PM

Right-wing Catholic extremists are downright vicious.

As are some left wing atheist extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 03:37 PM

Even as a poor unbeliever
"this"       by a fellow Scot always fills me with pride and shakes my preconceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 03:36 PM

I reviewed my email correspondence with Musket. Actually, I said that I did concede that many of Akenaton's posts fit some definitions of "homophobic." I told Musket I found fear and misinformation in Akenaton's posts, not hatred. I said that Ake needed to be persuaded, not attacked. I certainly found nothing in Akenaton's posts that was hateful or that promoted violence, or that should be reported to police authorities.

Akenaton and some others (me, perhaps?) simply represent an opposing view, ideas that do not agree with the dominating forces here. The idea of a discussion forum is that various sides of an issue are supposed to come together and present their opinions and discuss them, with the intention of exchanging ideas and coming to an understanding, if not agreement.

But the dominating forces here seem bent only on defeating and destroying opposition - often resorting to use of a wide variety of bullying tactics.

I find myself in an interesting position here. I don't agree with Akenaton on very many things, especially about homosexuality. And I don't have any particular admiration for Mother Teresa. And I agree with Jim Carroll that the Catholic Church, especially in Ireland, has done much harm.

But I don't agree that combative tactics are a necessary or constructive response to Akenaton, to Mother Teresa, or to the Catholic Church.

I deal with right-wing Catholics all the time, and I abhor many of their tactics. Back when I was a 16-year-old minor seminary student, there was an organization of right-wing women who regularly picketed our school, protesting the "heretical" speakers who were invited to speak to young, impressionable seminarians. And it wasn't just picketing - it was a full-blown campaign against the seminary and its philosophy. About seven years later, they finally succeeded in getting the Vatican to send investigators to our seminary, the third-oldest Catholic seminary in the U.S. The investigators found nothing wrong, but the neighboring bishops got scared off and withdrew their seminarians from our school. The seminary went from 240 students to five within a year.

Right-wing Catholics have kept a vigil outside the Planned Parenthood clinic in Sacramento for years. I found out recently that during their purportedly peaceful vigils, they take photographs of everyone going into the building - and they have used those photographs in various ways to harass those who patronize or volunteer at the clinic. They pressured the Bishop of Sacramento to require the firing of a Catholic high school drama coach who had been photographed doing volunteer work at the clinic before she was employed at the school. Our bishop's "got no courage in him," so I long ago stopped contributing money to my diocese. I wrote a letter to my bishop and told him so, and demanded a refund of my most recent contribution - and I got my refund.

Right-wing Catholics use distortion, misinformation, and just plain lies to accomplish their goals, rationalizing their dishonesty because of their perception of the urgency of their cause. They're also very good at bullying and the use of thinly-veiled threats. They see their view of "right" as the only correct view, and they deem all other perspectives to be immoral - and thus they must be suppressed. And worst of all, their "faith" is based on passing judgment on the conduct and ideas of others - questioning their own ideas and conduct, or discussing ideas with the opposition, is deemed to be a sign of weakness.

In short, Right-wing Catholic extremists are downright vicious.


Through most of my lifetime, I've thought that philosophical atheists present a good balance to the excesses of religious groups, serving as a sorely-needed conscience for church people. But things are different now. Since the success of the Dawkins/Hitchens demagoguery, militant atheists have taken on the tactics of the right - my "born-again atheists" moniker applies only to these militants who seek only to distort, condemn, and destroy. They use the same tactics used so insidiously by right-wing extremist Christians. Their only goal is conquest - tolerance and discussion and diversity are unacceptable to them.

And so, you see, the extremist Christians and the militant atheists have become bedfellows - very strange bedfellows, indeed.

I'll keep my place here in the middle, thankyouverymuch. Mindless, militant extremism is disgusting to me, no matter which side of the debate that extremism is found.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 02:43 PM

"Are you sure it is?"
Out of context, as usual Keith - I specified who hates the chiurch and why.
Th Church has lost massive support and it knows it - the Bishop of Dublin admitted it following their defeat over same-sex marriage.
It has just been announced that 25,000 Irish women went to Britain for pregnancy terminations over the last 4 years (this yet figures aren't in yet) and hundreds more went to the Netherlands - that is an indication of the respect the church is held in here.
I've just spent a very pleasant day among very nice people and I have no intention in spoiling it with your extremist right-wing "Christian!!!" fudamentalism - now or ever.
As with your support for Israeli mass murder - it's between you and what you possess of a conscience.
We really are done here, and elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 01:29 PM

The question isn't whether the Catholics are superstitious and believe in miracles, which is none of our concern, but celebrating her work in such a public way when it does not pass scrutiny. It merely says to the world that the Vatican still don't get it when it comes to abuse.

Yes Jim. When another Musket sent links to his ISP and Police Scotland, I advised Joe that if it were followed up, Mudcat could end up being blocked from UK view because their moderation is not up to the standards required to prevent propagation of hate crime as applied in The UK. Having a view that you don't like a section of society is merely irrational and a sign of low intelligence, but Akenaton of course tries to smear gay men with lies about health and urging others to hate. Our law may be draconian but it tries to protect people from influence of hate towards groups.

Joe said he had gone through many Akenaton posts and could not find any. A pity because I like Joe above the line.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 01:23 PM

Jim,
The Church is hated here

Are you sure it is?
By some no doubt, but you seem to believe that is a representative view.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 01:16 PM

I don't think Mother Teresa deserves to be sanctified, but I'm not Catholic so it's really none of my business who that church makes a saint.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 12:52 PM

"saying he couldn't find anything homophobic in Akenaton's posts "
What!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 12:32 PM

His next post will be telling us he didn't get a decent education.

For a member of a liberal political party with the slogan "Prosperity through Equality" Akenaton is one confused sick puppy.

Still, Joe Offer sent me an email saying he couldn't find anything homophobic in Akenaton's posts so his take on Mother Teresa must be using the same logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 11:52 AM

You think it is lazy and inaccurate, Stu. That is being kind as I would call it plain idiotic. For ake to say that anything is driven by ideology is absurd, as a look at his ideological and plainly dogmatic posts will demonstrate. There is nothing at all ideological in taking a stance against the excesses of organised religions. There is nothing dogmatic in treating people of any race, colour, creed or sexuality as real human beings the same as anyone else. It is what good people should be striving for, not because any religion tells them too, but because most people are intrinsically good in themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 11:37 AM

"The Church is hated by the "liberal left" as it represents(to them) a cornerstone of conservatism."
The Church is hated here because of its actual repressive nature i aspects of life is should have no say in whatever sexuality (of all groups, the church is the last place to turn for this), the raising of families, education, pregnancy, - in the past this extensive list even included music and dancing because of the so-called threat they posed to morality.
The greatest hatred towards the Church today is shown by believers whose children were systematically raped by clergymen, while their superiors stood by and covered up their crimes - and are now covering up and obstructing investigation into those crimes.
None of this has the slightest to do with "ideology" (exept to those extremist rights who would defend that behaviour in return for the sterling work the church has done in the past in keeping us lower orders in our place and maintaining the status quo.
The church's opposition st same- sex marriage (suppression of a natural way of life for a large number of people) typifies their repressive nature.
You ever have commented on the actions of the church in their support for the raping of so many children (except to blame it on homosexuality) and I doubt very much if you intend to start now.
Once again - a reminder - tho opposite to "liberal" is illiberal - a bad word in the books of most tolerant people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 11:04 AM

"As I have said many times, the opposition to religion here is not based on theology, but ideology."

A lazy and inaccurate generalisation. Most of us here were brought up in one religion or the other, and we know what we're talking about having been indoctrinated from an early age. Some of us went on to look at other religions and belief systems on our personal journies and found a different kind of spirituality, and recognised it can take more than one form.

"To anyone who believes that society requires a degree of guidance and order, these people are a menace."

Only if you think the sole method of constructing a moral and ethical framework is via religion, which of course it isn't. Some folk might need to be told what to think ion order to function, others are more interested in finding out for themselves; curiosity about the universe is one of the more admirable traits of our species. Take that away and what do you have?

Dogma and catechisms are fine for controlling and drilling your flock, but do they encourage any degree of free thinking, or do they funnel a follower's viewpoint into a myopic and focussed mindset of self-deception and self-justification? For Mother Theresa it did, as her God-inspired compassion meant excluding those from suffering from medication if they were dying in some cases. Deserving of a sainthood?

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM

As I have said many times, the opposition to religion here is not based on theology, but ideology.

The Church is hated by the "liberal left" as it represents(to them) a cornerstone of conservatism.
The "liberal left" believe all sorts of nonsense, the latest fad being that gender can be changed simply by saying it is so.
A man can insist on being called a woman, a chicken, or a tractor and according to the "liberal left" that is perfectly acceptable, no matter how deranged the behaviour may be.
Society no longer has any rules and as far as the "LL" are concerned the Church is the only opposition to their agenda.

The Churches opposition to homosexual "marriage" is the chief motivator for the abusive behaviour and ridicule we see from the usual suspects.

Joe, they don't really care about your beliefs. If the Church was to fall in line with their agenda, you wouldn't hear a peep from them.
In fact, it would be promoted as "progressive" in all the media.

To anyone who believes that society requires a degree of guidance and order, these people are a menace. When things go arse up they squirm back under their stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 08:28 AM

"[The main road was] now teeming with people carrying torches, pitchforks, and rakes, and one very confused man who apparently had mistaken the mob for a parade and was marching around with a Swedish flag." 
― Cuthbert Soup

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:49 AM

Dunno Stu. He might get the Wednesday in the play offs if I see the error of my ways.

India eh? I wondered how long it would take to say anyone born in the 20th century after 1948 in The UK has no moral right to mention the less than savoury deeds of someone on the basis they were born in India.

I guess the cartoon I saw of a Native American telling Trump to get the fuck out of his country didn't hit home. You were an adult during racial segregation. Dont throw the empire shit around. You've had almost 250 years to evolve as a nation and the last I heard, there is a groundswell opinion to bomb Aladdin's pad. If I were Mickey Mouse, I'd be shitting myself.

No. The most "British" people I know spend their time in mosques and temples, both here and in India. Keep to the subject Joe.

Hitchens was an outspoken rant merchant who disguised some of his excellent points in shit, giving a get out of jail card to the organised people controllers masquerading as moral guides.

I don't knock faith. Yes, I question and deride a system that encourages less intelligent people to believe fairy stories as real and yes, these grunts can and do hold back society with their medieval nonsense. But most of the superstitious people I know use their association with irrational concepts as a metaphor and guide. Mother Teresa used the mumbo jumbo aspects as real, saying that suffering in this world makes it better in a world that doesn't exist later. Dangerous shit, and no, I haven't read Hitchens and his view of her. I have read some of his other stuff and both books remain unfinished on my Kindle.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:44 AM

Saint restoration 

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:29 AM

"That's what it's all about, making the world just a little bit better."

No it's not, it's also about the search for fundamental truth, that's the basis upon which we construct our moral values and guide we decide which deeds are altruistic and which are not. The simple fact of discovering truth does itself make the world a better place; unarguable, empirical truth is what counts.

When it comes to miracles I personally will ignore the medieval superstitious nonsense and some old white man in a frock and bestow a sainthood of Stu on Remy Garde if he keeps Villa from the drop this season; that would be a bloody miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:23 AM

I think your interpretation is rather distorted.

It's in line with her general policy of equating pain & suffering with evidence of God's Love. To quote : "There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering." (From HERE)

The woman was clearly insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:17 AM

"Hitchens propaganda movie t"
Wha???
Never heard of Hitchins Joe - Mother Teresa's behaviour has been a long running saga over here - might not have reached The New World Yet!
"but I do note that there is a nondenominational school in the neighborhood"
Probably lives in Dublin - just like the uK thy have everything so it doesn't matter too much what happens elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:17 AM

This is the primary source for Hitchens' quote about Mother Teresa refusing painkillers:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673694923531

[The Lancet, Sep 17, 1994, Volume 344, Number 8925]

I don't have immediate access to that without paying the Elsevier price though I could probably wangle it given time. It hardly seems worth it to check on something that nobody has seriously contested.

People operating institutions the same way a few decades before ended up in the dock at Nuremberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:14 AM

So, no one backing up the universal condemnation or anti religious bias comments then?

I have mentioned before, but it certainly does no harm doing so again, that my Grandfather was a Russian Orthodox priest and I was educated in Roman Catholic schools. I agree that it did me no harm (although some may disagree ;-) ) but I cannot agree that there was no indoctrination. Depends what you mean by the term of course and I would class having to say prayers in assembly every morning, attending 'retreats' and having to attend mass on a regular basis, as well compulsory religious education that comprised only of being told what Christianity is about, is indoctrination. Most us us left it behind, some did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:02 AM

Facts, Jim, facts. Surely, you should be able to come up with something more than a Hitchens propaganda movie to support your condemnation of this dead nun.

As for schools in Ireland, this Irish Times article speaks of a Dublin woman who can't get her kid into a school in her area, which has a Roman Catholic school, and Church of Ireland school, a multidenominational school, and a nondenominational school. I see her point - to a degree - but I do note that there is a nondenominational school in the neighborhood.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:55 AM

Jim, everyone who has an opinion which differs from yours is not a troll. I simply stated that I did not have a bad experience while attending a "religious based " school. I agree that parents should have a choice when sending children to a public school. But I do not agree that all those who attend religious schools are indoctrinated. I can speak of   That from personal experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:45 AM

"a nation not known to have been particularly benevolent toward the Indian subcontinent?"
Bit of a low shot Joe - condemnation of this con-lady has nothing to do with her race
Her ascendancy up "Jacob's Ladder" reads like Frodo's ascendancy up Doom Mountain - that aspect of religion really is mystical nonsense - if only Christians would adhere to their philosophical teachings and forget the comic-book stuff, the world really could be a better place
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:40 AM

Yes, Jim Carroll, I do acknowledge that you "condemn the Church as a body for its behaviour."

Is that what I was supposed to acknowledge?

I also acknowledge that between five and ten percent of priests in Ireland were involved in sexual misconduct with children, and that was and is disgraceful. And yes, at least a few bishops covered up that sexual misconduct.

Anything else I'm supposed to acknowledge?

Please note, however, that those involved in misconduct were a minority.

And by the way, I don't think it's a good idea for the majority of schools in a nation to be controlled by a church. The Irish voted in favor of gay marriage. Why can't they vote to fix their schools if they need fixing?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:29 AM

Musket, I can't figure out what "boutique Christian" means, so I don't know what to think of the label.

As I've said, I'm not a great fan of Mother Teresa, but I think the Hitchens video attempting to smear her was grossly unfair. It presented very limited information couched in inflammatory language, in the language of propaganda. I couldn't figure out how Hitchens would know all this stuff, or why he would care. But hatred of Mother Teresa seems to have become a rallying cry for the militant atheists. I can't really see what they expect to accomplish by their campaign.

Seems to me that she was a well-intentioned person who tried to do her best with limited resources to care for the sick and dying of India. If somebody else could do it better, why didn't they? If she was doing something wrong, why didn't the Indian authorities prosecute her?

And dare I say I find it interesting that this campaign against Mother Teresa seems based in the United Kingdom, a nation not known to have been particularly benevolent toward the Indian subcontinent?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:09 AM

"I suppose it's different in Ireland."
The facts speak for themselves Joe - over %90 of the primary schools are in the hands of a church that has proved that it is not fit to be put in charge of children - and children being turned away on the basis of their not having baptismal certificates - no alternatives offered other than to become Catholics.
t's no different to the "soupers" during the Famine who would only offer famine relief to those who changed their religion.
The church continues to show its unfitness in the way they are still defending as "scapegoats" leading churchmen who colluded in hiding the crimes of paedophile priests and allowed them to continue with their 'little weakness'.
Dspite what out little troll Lilo says, there is no 'anti-religious bias" - on the contrary, the bias is towards the non believer
Ireland is still claimed to be a Catholic country, despite the enormous fall-off of believers here, which is proof enough that itis time that religion is relegated to a choice rather than a legally enforced demand - ask any woman (including a rape victim) with an unviable pregnancy.
I don't condemn religion, I condemn the Church as a body for its behaviour - you have yet to acknowledge that fact.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:06 AM

Jack Blandiver says: Here's one from one of her stand-up gigs in which she describes the spiritual benefits of withholding painkillers from the sick & dying.

The recording was hard to understand, but I didn't hear anything about withholding painkillers. I thought the woman was talking about trying to find some meaning in suffering - and her joke was an admission that it's not always possible to find meaning in suffering. I think your interpretation is rather distorted.

Throughout history, people have sought to find meaning in suffering. Viktor Frankl's Man's Search of Meaning addresses the subject very well. It's not a matter of inviting suffering - it's dealing with it as a reality when it's there. Many people in hospice care choose to limit use of opiates so they can be aware of what's happening to them, and so they can be conscious to take their leave of loved ones. Is there something wrong about that?

As far as I can tell, the allegations that Mother Teresa's staff refused to administer painkillers come almost exclusively from the Hitchens organization, and I haven't been able to figure out why Hitchens had such an axe to grind.

I've also seen statements that Mother Teresa's staff regularly administered painkillers. So I guess it's a she said/he said situation. No doubt, St. Hitchens must be right, because he's already been canonized and declared infallible by his minions and Mother Teresa hasn't been canonized yet.

-Joe-