Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:14 AM

Fuck me, folk singers are wedded to capitalist ideas now. Presumably wedded to capitalism of the opposite gender eh?





😂😂😂

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:27 AM

Billy Connolly (note spelling) waxes lyrically in his wife's biographies over his love of traditional folk. His biggest regret lately is that his advancing Parkinson's Disease precludes his love of playing banjo and singing.

Just to put the record straight. He wanted The Humblebums to carry on doing folk. Rafferty wished to expand his musical horizons and encouraged Connolly to use his natural comedy approach to attract a larger audience spectrum as a solo player.

You do talk some rubbish Akenaton.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:30 AM

Well, I suppose "religious" songs are more ...of the people...than ones promoting twenty first century socialism....or capitalism.

Many of the oldest ballads contain references to the supernatural.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:34 AM

I've been waiting for someone else to mention this thinking that it was bound to come up soon..... but it hasn't, so here goes.

The attempts by the BNP to infiltrate folk music with their thinking that anyone interested in British traditions would also be sympathetic to an extreme racist British nationalism happened in fairly recent times. Those, including myself, who strongly opposed this were subject to a scurrilous vilification on social media. For example, I was subject to identity theft of my emails and Facebook and Mudcat postings and PMs, had to see hideous photoshopped photos of my wife posted on the internet and threats that their thugs would descend on meetings of the folk club I ran. Fortunately, folk music activists closed ranks and Folk Against Fascism ran a concerted campaign to see them off.... but in the short run it was very threatening and upsetting.

Compared with that, the efforts of the likes of Pete Seeger, Ewan MacColl and Billy Bragg trying to persuade their audiences from the stage of the evils of capitalism seems pretty benign.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:41 AM

I have never read any of Billy's biography, but I can assure you that the chorus singing groups who composed the backbone of "the revival", were looked upon with derision by those destined for "bigger things".

In the beginning, the huge audiences which attended folk clubs, came for the community singing aspect.....that was what provided the magic, the emotion, the participation.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:47 AM

Err. Look up to "Guest Musket" a few posts up. He has mentioned it Vic.

I too was concerned over the nationalist link up with traditional folk songs. Although to be fair, a person of such views might point out they aren't necessarily the domain of left wing views either. I like listening to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan but regardless of whether I support, oppose, like or dislike his overt political overtone, I still think it spoils the musical talent he can offer.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:52 AM

The attacks against your wife and yourself are indeed disgraceful Vic, I had no involvement with the folk scene at that time, but remember it being mentioned here on Mudcat.

I could never understand why these people thought they could influence the members of present day folk clubs, who are by and large inclined to the left.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:57 AM

Err. Look up to "Guest Musket" a few posts up. He has mentioned it Vic.

Really? Musket has mentioned the attacks on folk enthusiasts by what the BNP liked to call their "attack dogs"? Could you link to the date and time of the actual post where he makes this point?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:06 AM

"Just to put the record straight. He wanted The Humblebums to carry on doing folk. Rafferty wished to expand his musical horizons and encouraged Connolly to use his natural comedy approach to attract a larger audience spectrum as a solo player."

I knew Billy and Tam,(who like myself worked in the building trade), long before Gerry joined. they never "did folk", they did a little bluegrass interspersed with comedy, which gradually took over.

Gerry changed the group completely, I was in the audience on his introduction...he did a few of his own songs and I was blown away, became a lifelong fan, have every record he ever made, but he was from a different genre.

Most of the audience wanted the old Billy and Tam, the footstompin' the raucus laughter, the observational Glasgow comedy.

Tam was ditched and he told me later that he had gone back to chippying......the rest is history.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM

It was also mentioned in those odd, strange links which don't show up on all systems: mine eg just shows them as funny rectangles with squiggles in. Have asked before whether anyone can explain this phenomenon; certainly can't understand it myself. Perhaps they won't work on an ?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM

The symbiotic relationship between those who had a profession based around folk music and those who provided the backbone of folk clubs was and in part still is a joy. Serendipity is the best way to describe it.

Folk is a broad church. (Mosque / temple / synagogue / pub / football ground) and as in any arena, especially where artistry has a place, squabbles can be taken out of context. Clubs are largely singarounds these days, as much to do with those of us who used to run clubs not wanting to get our financial fingers burned as any other reason and "turns" are increasingly having to broaden their appeal on the small theatre / arts centre circuit.

On that note, being political is less popular. I have seen Martin Simpson twice in recent months. Once in a very much folk club venue and once at a theatre. His act was more social comment orientated in the club and more general music in the theatre.

So the point of "politically conservative" for me includes having to reference the person or the persona?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:14 AM

Is GUEST of 5.47 the same person as GUEST of 6.06 or not? I do wish they'd go back to banning unidentified Guest posts, if only becoz they are so intolerably bloody CONFUSING!

SIGNED as the identifiable work of

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:47 AM

...and of course, there have been attempts from the extreme right to co-opt folk music for their own propaganda. Folk music still hasn't recovered from what Hitler did to it in Germany.

What is happening at the moment in Hungary is pretty depressing. The present urban trad music scene in Hungary would not exist without the work of Bartok and Kodaly, both of whom were on the far left (they were in the culture administration of Bela Kun's socialist republic of 1919) - and Bartok particularly was a consistent internationalist with absolutely no time for nationalist appropriations of folk culture. And the reason so many Hungarian folkies are so good at it is because they've been through the music education system created by Kodaly under the Communists, which is the most effective the world has ever seen.

I suspect most Hungarian folkies still are somewhere on the left, but there is now a significant fraction of them who support FIDESZ, which is roughly like Cameron's Tories (and similarly tolerant of and symbiotic with the racist far right - Jobbik in Hungary roughly corresponding to UKIP/BNP/EDL in the UK).

I haven't figured out what the FIDESZ folkies' attitude to Gypsies is. For a while, the folk scene was a dependable ally of the Gypsies in Hungary and Romania and helped nurture a revival of the autonomous Gypsy culture (like the relationship between the UK folk revival and the Travellers, but less amateurish). How many of them still relate positively to the Gypsies I don't know (or whether many of them still share Bartok's interest in the Muslim culture underlying much of the former Ottoman Empire). I will attempt to find out when I go back there this summer.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:06 AM

"I like listening to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan but regardless of whether I support, oppose, like or dislike his overt political overtone, I still think it spoils the musical talent he can offer."

I don't mind when it is delivered in the song - but when singers start preaching their view for long periods between songs it can be waring - even when you agree with them. And the trouble is in a small venue it can then turn into a verbal spat if even just one person in the audience challenges them and most people pay to hear the music not a political debate. That has happened on two occasions at our club. Once with Dick and once with Rory McLeod.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:12 AM

ESSENTIAL [I fear] drift --

Jack: UKIP is in no way comparable to or cognate with the two extreme rightwing organisations with which you see fit to bracket it, you know. No way whatsoever! The necessity to break links with the oppressive EU, whose two main members, France & Germany, hate one another, but are at one solely in their hatred of us, the UK, because we beat one of them in WW2 after the other had so disgracefully chickened out, is a perfectly rational stance to take, and has no racist overtone whatsoever. You should be ashamed of being taken in by the unworthy propaganda, which aims to undermine such an impulse by purporting to link the party with the agenda of supporting this policy with fascist oppression. I am surprised at you.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:34 AM

I agree M, I concur with several UKIP policies, one being absenting ourselves from the EU and would describe myself as a socialist politically.

I confusion over political and social issues continues

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:38 AM

On 04 Jan 16 - 04:01 AM Mike posted:-
" I guess you can include me in as MOR inclined more to right than left."

I must say that his post at 06 Jan 16 - 07:12 AM makes him sound much more right-inclined than the above claim.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:07 AM

UKIP, the BNP and the EDL are one organization, appealing to the same constituency of white xenophobes, with membership moving to and fro between different subsections as opportunity and necessity dictate.

Jobbik is rather more honest - the parliamentarians and the street thugs carry the same political label.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:59 AM

Sorry, Vic & Jack; but that is just not how I perceive UKIP. I don't think I am a white xenophobe because I think that this forced alliance with our former enemy & her contemptible victim [hands up if you thought that guy in the Simpsons' "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" a joke], both of whom still have it in for us because we won & they didn't, is not to our advantage to maintain. I say again, you have fallen victims to unworthy propaganda of those with a business agenda they think might be marred by any decent prideful independence. I suppose you thought that disgusting 2-faced heap of treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung De Gaulle was our ally, didn't you?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:00 AM

UKIP are just a party of extreme right bigots without the courage of their conviction to join English Defence League or BNP. They have no policies. They see Europe as a bogey man without clarifying their stance.

The one thing you can say in their favour is that whilst ever obnoxious bigots are saying EU membership is a bad thing, the respectable majority of people will listen to the pro EU lobby.

There you are. You wanted a right wing folk singer. Well Michael claims to be a singer. He is certainly right wing, what with showing his support for UKIP, trying to differentiate those thugs from other thugs. I'm not surprised myself. A while ago, when he was denigrating Muslims, I asked if that included the millions of law abiding people who serve their communities. His reply? "The corner shop owner may be ok but he might have a nephew."

No need to discuss the ins and outs of Peter Bellamy. We have a self confessed real live one here

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:28 AM

Vic & Jack are one thing. But the fatuous Popgun, in the words of the great Jane Austen [Sense & Sensibility] "does not deserve the compliment of rational opposition".

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:36 AM

I quote from two recent posts:-

" The necessity to break links with the oppressive EU, whose two main members, France & Germany, hate one another, but are at one solely in their hatred of us, the UK, because we beat one of them in WW2 after the other had so disgracefully chickened out, is a perfectly rational stance to take, and has no racist overtone whatsoever. You should be ashamed of being taken in by the unworthy propaganda, which aims to undermine such an impulse by purporting to link the party with the agenda of supporting this policy with fascist oppression. I am surprised at you."

and

"I think that this forced alliance with our former enemy & her contemptible victim [hands up if you thought that guy in the Simpsons' "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" a joke], both of whom still have it in for us because we won & they didn't, is not to our advantage to maintain. I say again, you have fallen victims to unworthy propaganda of those with a business agenda they think might be marred by any decent prideful independence. I suppose you thought that disgusting 2-faced heap of treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung De Gaulle was our ally, didn't you?"

Now, I know who made these statements, but if I didn't know, I would have surmised that these were the comments of a small-minded xenophobic Little Englander and not those of an ex-broadsheet journalist whose writings in newspapers of both the left and right, I have admired on a range of subjects including folk music.... and this from a man who claims his opinions are middle-of-the-road.

I am saddened.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:41 AM

'Guest': "From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:55 PM

"Any singer, or musician, who jumps out and makes political identity, either on the 'right' or 'left' can count on losing half their audiences"

Try telling that to John Tams, Jez Lowe, Billy Bragg........"

I think Joe Offer re-stated my very point:

Joe Offer, 05 Jan 16 - 10:53 PM

"Maybe it shouldn't matter, HiLo, but I think it does. I have heard comments from people who say they feel uncomfortable at folk gatherings because the group is too uniformly liberal, and remarks are made that make them feel excluded - so they stay away."

Now 'mystery Guest', Get off your delusions of grandeur!

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:53 AM

the fatuous Popgun

treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung

I will read the staements of others, allow them their opinions and give my own. I will analyse their statements in my replies and hope that they will do the same with my comments..... but when a thread descends to slimy insults, I, and I'm sure others, will always leave.

Exeunt....

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:53 AM

I suppose the old adage of the older you get, the more intolerant you get applies here.

By that reckoning.....

Nice to see Goofus thinking Billy Bragg, John Tams and Jez Lowe go to "folk gatherings" of a uniform group, whatever. There was me thinking they are internationally renowned singer songwriters whose material is well known to those who buy tickets for their concerts.

It's a bit like going to Covent Garden for The Ring Cycle and saying "I hope it isn't too long, I've left a joint in the oven."
😂😂

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,The fatuous popgun
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM

Nurse!

He's out of bed again!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:53 AM

Musket, your post was so 'off the wall' that it misses the point, and makes none. Not even worthy of a reply.

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 11:08 AM

Sorry you are saddened Vic -- one of those on here whose posts I generally find worth reading for intellectual content. But the facts of the matter are that De Gaulle was given refuge here when his country was conquered; did enjoy his war in safety here under our auspices; was handed his country back, which we & our allies had liberated, to become its President; and did thank us by kicking us in the teeth over Maastricht, having made common cause against us with our mutual former foe. What on earth can you perceive as xenophobic or Little·Englander-ish in the rehearsal of these indisputable facts? Or have you some other fantasy-version of your own of the facts of the matter?

Thanks anyhow for your kind words about my former writings.

Regards

≈Michael≈

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 12:06 PM

Britain ought to leave the UK because of de Gaulle, who died three years before Britain joined it?

Does this go along with an official UKIP policy that Joan of Arc had it coming?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 01:53 PM

What on earth can you perceive as xenophobic or Little·Englander-ish in the rehearsal of these indisputable facts?

Perhaps the fact that WW2 ended 70 years ago - and much has happened in that time. To retain such a hatred of two countries (is that just the governments or the complete populations of those countries, by the way?)does seem very xenophobic to me - and unworthy of one whom I had always respected for clarity of argument and logical thought.

Very sad indeed.

My first and last post on yet another thread which has descended into insult and petty-mindedness.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:14 PM

It's always been possible to make political points via music, particularly but not exclusively via vocal music. It's been done with opera for hundreds of years, often forcefully. There's the clue. You can do it with stories and narratives about the lives of people. You don't need to patronise the audience with explicit political opinions, either in the music or between the pieces. In fact, as some posters have said here, you're severely at risk of alienating even the people who agree with you if you do that. I might want to hear about trade union rights, the Clearances, Thatcher's atrocities, abortion and the hunger strikers, even God, as folk music is about real people. But I don't want to be nursing my pint with the feeling that I'm being preached at or having my emotions tendentiously toyed with. There's a clear distinction. Some of my very favourite singers have occasionally had me indulging in involuntary buttock-clenching on occasion. To me, it's a mark overstepped.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

There was a reason I picked on Wagner above, rather than any other.

So, what have I learned on this thread?

You need to distinguish between the person and the persona. Or put another way, you wouldn't want to discuss philosophy with Jordan but would you kick her out of bed? (Just a little analogy to get the self righteous happily indignant.)

Despite all the evidence being to the contrary, Billy Connolly seems to have been a building labourer instead of the ship yard welder he really was.

My dismay last year over the rather repugnant views Michael is capable of inflicting seems to be rather widely shared now. Do keep up.

Folk singers are first and foremost entertainers. It gives me great pleasure to listen to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan and let the rants go in one ear and out the other.

Roy Bailey double so.

I'm off to a folk club now. I'll sing about nobbing and unrequited nobbing. That'll be safe.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

There was a reason I picked on Wagner above, rather than any other.

So, what have I learned on this thread?

You need to distinguish between the person and the persona. Or put another way, you wouldn't want to discuss philosophy with Jordan but would you kick her out of bed? (Just a little analogy to get the self righteous happily indignant.)

Despite all the evidence being to the contrary, Billy Connolly seems to have been a building labourer instead of the ship yard welder he really was.

My dismay last year over the rather repugnant views Michael is capable of inflicting seems to be rather widely shared now. Do keep up.

Folk singers are first and foremost entertainers. It gives me great pleasure to listen to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan and let the rants go in one ear and out the other.

Roy Bailey double so.

I'm off to a folk club now. I'll sing about nobbing and unrequited nobbing. That'll be safe.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:41 PM

No hatred of any countries, goddammit. Just of that loathsome ungrateful dictatorial lowlife louse Charles De Gaulle. Can't you get that into your stupid thick ☠s?!. What's the matter with you all! Or do you think he was just a benign old boyo who loved us all really, despite making a career of kicking us -- his erstwhile saviours & refuge -- in the teeth just to show he could & didn't owe anything to anybody coz he was his own stinking self with the upper hand now. --- 30 or so years ago, even in the memories of you infants, not any bloody 70+.

Oh wotz the bloody use! Once Catters get their teeth into a bone

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:50 PM

I fail to understand how any 'folk' singer coud be politically Conservative when there are 55,000 homeless people in England alone.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:53 PM

Having a good rant is one thing. Slagging off Norman Lamont between songs is entirely another, and no, I have no time for Norman Lamont, and yes, it was a good few years ago! Far from being the only instance I can bring to mind.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:02 PM

"I fail to understand how any 'folk' singer coud be politically Conservative when there are 55,000 homeless people in England alone."

Could be that those "folkies" of right-wing inclination are reluctant to display their predilections in public, knowing that they'd almost certainly make themselves rather unpopular, but I agree with your sentiment.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:42 PM

No hatred of any countries, goddammit. Just of that loathsome ungrateful dictatorial lowlife louse Charles De Gaulle.

Well he was safely dead before Britain was in the EEC/EU. So why is he relevant to whether the UK should stay in it? You seem to see a connection, and since you're also saying it isn't his nationality, what is it?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:47 PM

De Gaulle was the figure head of The French resistance during the second world war, here are two of his speeches.
June 18 1940

The leaders who, for many years past, have been at the head of the French armed forces have set up a government.

Alleging the defeat of our armies, this government has entered into negotiations with the enemy with a view to bringing about a cessation of hostilities.

It is quite true that we were, and still are, overwhelmed by enemy mechanised forces, both on the ground and in the air. It was the tanks, the planes, and the tactics of the Germans, far more than the fact that we were outnumbered, that forced our armies to retreat. It was the German tanks, planes, and tactics that provided the element of surprise which brought our leaders to their present plight.

But has the last word been said? Must we abandon all hope? Is our defeat final and irremediable? To those questions I answer - No!

Speaking in full knowledge of the facts, I ask you to believe me when I say that the cause of France is not lost. The very factors that brought about our defeat may one day lead us to victory.

For, remember this, France does not stand alone. She is not isolated. Behind her is a vast empire, and she can make common cause with the British empire, which commands the seas and is continuing the struggle. Like England, she can draw unreservedly on the immense industrial resources of the United States.

This war is not limited to our unfortunate country. The outcome of the struggle has not been decided by the battle of France. This is a world war. Mistakes have been made, there have been delays and untold suffering, but the fact remains that there still exists in the world everything we need to crush our enemies some day.

Advertisement

Today we are crushed by the sheer weight of mechanised force hurled against us, but we can still look to a future in which even greater mechanised force will bring us victory. The destiny of the world is at stake.

I, General de Gaulle, now in London, call on all French officers and men who are at present on British soil, or may be in the future, with or without their arms; I call on all engineers and skilled workmen from the armaments factories who are at present on British soil, or may be in the future, to get in touch with me.

Whatever happens, the flame of French resistance must not and shall not die.

Tomorrow I shall broadcast again from London.

June 19 1940

Frenchmen must now be fully aware that all ordinary forms of authority have disappeared.

Faced by the bewilderment of my countrymen, by the disintegration of a government in thrall to the enemy, by the fact that the institutions of my country are incapable, at the moment, of functioning, I, General de Gaulle, a French soldier and military leader, realise that I now speak for France. I n the name of France, I make the following solemn declaration: It is the bounden duty of all Frenchmen who still bear arms to continue the struggle. For them to lay down their arms, to evacuate any position of military importance, or agree to hand over any part of French territory, however small, to enemy control, would be a crime against our country. For the moment I refer particularly to French North Africa - to the integrity of French North Africa.

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The Italian armistice is nothing but a clumsy trap. In the Africa of Clauzel, Bugeaud, Lyautey, and Noguès, honour and duty strictly enjoin that the French should refuse to carry out the conditions imposed by the enemy.

The thought that the panic of Bordeaux could make itself felt across the sea is not to be borne.

Soldiers of France, wherever you may be, arise!

June 22 1940

The French government, after having asked for an armistice, now knows the conditions dictated by the enemy.

The result of these conditions would be the complete demobilisation of the French land, sea, and air forces, the surrender of our weapons and the total occupation of French territory. The French government would come under German and Italian tutelage.

It may therefore be said that this armistice would not only be a capitulation, but that it would also reduce the country to slavery. Now, a great many Frenchmen refuse to accept either capitulation or slavery, for reasons which are called: honour, common sense, and the higher interests of the country.

I say honour, for France has undertaken not to lay down arms save in agreement with her allies. As long as the allies continue the war, her government has no right to surrender to the enemy. The Polish, Norwegian, Belgian, Netherlands, and Luxemburg governments, though driven from their territories, have thus interpreted their duty. I say common sense, for it is absurd to consider the struggle as lost. True, we have suffered a major defeat. We lost the battle of France through a faulty military system, mistakes in the conduct of operations, and the defeatist spirit shown by the government during recent battles. But we still have a vast empire, our fleet is intact, and we possess large sums in gold. We still have the gigantic potentialities of American industry. The same war conditions which caused us to be beaten by 5,000 planes and 6,000 tanks can tomorrow bring victory by means of 20,000 tanks and 20,000 planes.

I say the higher interests of the country, for this is not a Franco-German war to be decided by a single battle. This is a world war. No one can foresee whether the neutral countries of today will not be at war tomorrow, or whether Germany's allies will always remain her allies. If the powers of freedom ultimately triumph over those of servitude, what will be the fate of a France which has submitted to the enemy?

Honour, common sense, and the interests of the country require that all free Frenchmen, wherever they be, should continue the fight as best they may.

It is therefore necessary to group the largest possible French force wherever this can be done. Everything which can be collected by way of French military elements and potentialities for armaments production must be organised wherever such elements exist.

I, General de Gaulle, am undertaking this national task here in England.

I call upon all French servicemen of the land, sea, and air forces; I call upon French engineers and skilled armaments workers who are on British soil, or have the means of getting here, to come and join me.

I call upon the leaders, together with all soldiers, sailors, and airmen of the French land, sea, and air forces, wherever they may now be, to get in touch with me.

I call upon all Frenchmen who want to remain free to listen to my voice and follow me.

Long live free France in honour and independence!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Mystery Guest
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:32 PM

So do I assume that 'Guest from Sanity' is what it says on your birth certificate? Or are you perhaps just as anonymous as me???

I'm not quite sure how you interpret my only post on this thread as 'delusions of grandeur' I was merely making the point that there are a large number of performers out there who do have a well known political leaning, and contrary to your statement, this has no bearing on the size of audience they attract. Indeed, as I believe 'Guest Musket' (presumably also his real name) those people that do go to see them are probably attracted by their political leanings.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:51 PM

I remember Karine Polwart saying on her FB page that when she tried to both explain her position on independence, and to explain how the debate was perhaps not being covered well in the UK media as a whole, to an audience at a festival in England that a big portion of the crowd simply went for a stroll or for a drink. Again people want to be entertained and not lectured to. Different a few sentences in introducing a song but if it is a more detailed preaching to the people then you risk alienating them. She conceded it didn't work!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:58 PM

The point that M was making seems to have been covered in the usual avalanche of shit.

It is not racist or xenophobic to protest our membership of the EU.
Or be the first political party to question the idiocy of unregulated immigration within that Union.......every major party in this country now subscribes to the view that immigration from within the EU must be regulated.

The only way this can be achieved is by the UK removing itself from this undemocratic organisation, which was originally set up to serve the interests of big business......I voted against in the first referendum, and I shall do so again.

Oh and for the benefit of those who lack comprehension....everyone with the slightest interest in music and entertainment, know the history of Mr Connolly.......Mr Harvey and I exchanged views on timber frame construction and he told me later when I met him by chance, that he had "gone back to the tools".....craftsmen will realise what that means.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Gopherit!
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:08 PM

The U.S. Constitution was supposed to be a "liberal" document, a government of, by, and for the people with "certain inalienable rights" embedded in the Bill of Rights. But somehow if you believe in this liberal document you are now regarded as a "conservative" or even a "right wing extremist" by the NSA.
It also seems socialists, liberals democrats want to control everybody about everything all based on compulsion/coercion - mandatory vaccinations, healthcare, government "education," zone laws up the whazoo and so on - just the opposite of persuasion and co-operation, and leaving consenting adults alone. And quite a few conservatives subscribe to coercion - the draft, war, world policeman etc.

Then there is Hitler who said over and over again, "I am a socialist." Yet is is labeled "right wing"?

I think Fascism can arise out of the left or right and either. way it stinks. To me Fascism is the collusion of big government with big money/corporations to their benefit and to the greater detriment of most of the populace. It always employs deception and coercion.

Capitalism without morality descends into Fascism.

America is pretty much a Fascist oligarchy now as are too many countries across the globe.

You either see people possessing "certain inalienable rights" from God that majority vote can neither give nor take away, or you don't.

An essential right seldom mentioned is the right to simply be left alone, not coerced into someone else's agenda.

Conservative? Liberal? These terms have been so jumbled up by the money-that-is as part of their divide and conquer program as they make their way to the bank to deposit more of their ill-gotten gain.

It is one thing to stop a person from harming, quite another to coerce them.

Perhaps we need new terms. Gopherit!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:14 PM

Er, and the last two posts have precisely *what* to do with folk music...?

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 02:57 AM

You tell 'em 'Goferit!!'!!
You got most of the picture with one minor adjustment, if you will...and it's within (quoting you): "Capitalism without morality descends into Fascism."

TRUE!!

"America is pretty much a Fascist oligarchy now as are too many countries across the globe."

TRUE....but there is an underlying reason....The oligarchy of which you refer is now made of the internationalist bankers who got fat off America, and now those same bankers don't need America or any 'home' country, unless they want to 'rent' our military, or anything else they need to accomplish their goals...without allegence to any singular country....fair enough??

"You either see people possessing "certain inalienable rights" from God that majority vote can neither give nor take away, or you don't."

TRUE....(but some time you don't see it, because the 'majority vote' has been co-opted and staged, as theater). No present candidate rises into prominence without the 'allowance' and/or funding by the banking oligarchy...and promoted by their corporate owned media.

"An essential right seldom mentioned is the right to simply be left alone, not coerced into someone else's agenda."

TRUE and well said.

"Conservative? Liberal? These terms have been so jumbled up by the money-that-is as part of their divide and conquer program as they make their way to the bank to deposit more of their ill-gotten gain."

TRUE..but let me add a small, clarifying addendum...

"Conservative? Liberal? These terms have been so jumbled up by the money-that-is as part of their divide and conquer program as they make their way BACK to the bank, from which they originated, to deposit more of their ill-gotten gain...to be awarded 'shares', by succeeding in passing their 'special interests' which they masqueraded as either a 'so-called Conservative' or 'so-called Liberal' 'cause'.

You OK with that??

GfS

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 03:24 AM

You know, the words "socialist" "conservative" and "liberal" tend to conjure up different images in The US than they do over here. So Goofus for once may have an excuse for his confusion.

Regarding tools, I think "tool" amongst other words whenever I read Akenaton's posts. Mind you, his confusion regarding immigration isn't going anywhere fast where he lives. On the million to one shot that little Britain prevails, The Scottish National Party will use the break of membership of The EU as reason for another independence referendum and apply to join The EU. SNP are probably the most pro EU political party in The UK.

So back to the singers. Those who use music as a medium for their soapbox a la Roy Bailey? Those who use social injustice as a theme a la Vin Garbutt? Those who play a straight bat and concentrate on the historical perspective of certain songs a la Martin Carthy? Those whose world views are irrelevant to their act a la Kate Rusby?

Yet all the above, not just Mr Bailey, come across as the opposite of conservative in conversation.

Interesting thread title but in the same way as Ewan MacColl putting on a false Scottish accent to go with his false Scottish name, it's all showbiz!

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 03:34 AM

Its even more confusing if you consider Australia, where the Liberal Party is the equivalent of the UK Conservatives.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 04:04 AM

Musket mentions Vin Garbutt, and says quite correctly that he sings about social injustice. However it should not be forgotten that Vin has faced considerable criticism from the folk scene for daring to express his pro-life views in song.

It appears to me that the folk scene is more than happy for songs to present a political viewpoint, and some would say that is what folk song is for, but only if those views correspond with their own. It can appear to be notably intolerant of views it doesn't agree with. I have to say I find that one of the least attractive aspects of it.

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 04:28 AM

Vin also receives support for his views, I have seen it with my own eyes at his concerts, your comment is unbalanced, Vin believes passionately in pro life he chooses to be controversial he cannot expect everyone to agree with him.
it is my opinion that the folk scene is tolerant, however I reserve the right to object to any singer spouting inflammatory racist speeches during their set.
Vin is a decent guy and obviously does not do that but hypothetically if he did or anyone else did I would have a right to object., however unless the singer was saying inflammatory racist comments,I would let the performer continue and then try and discuss the matter privately
the uk folk scene is in my opinion tolerant, the audience has a right not to applaud, but generally speaking discussion privately is in my opinion the best way to approach differing political viewpoints

Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 16 - 05:41 AM

Musket: "You know, the words "socialist" "conservative" and "liberal" tend to conjure up different images in The US than they do over here. So Goofus for once may have an excuse for his confusion."

No confusion at all, They are ALL bought and paid for, and people who subscribe so wholeheartedly to any of them is not only confused, but manipulated to be that way!!

To whom it may concern:
Let's take a musical example of one of the earlier masters of 'social commentary'...and most all here would agree that he certainly helped in getting the ball rolling, insofar as 'social consciousness'...Reminisce, and enjoy!!
..ahh, the memories...and he, Joan and the song made the 'straight establishment' both puzzled, leery..but the song was GREAT...and it got everyone's attention....right??....but wait, this 'social commentator' also wrote this song in that same time period....and just as objective ....which brings us back to the topic of the thread.. "Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative"....(and let's not forget Barry McGuire's "Eve of Destruction", which he still performs, while punctuating his concerts with Christian evangelism!

Both McGuire's "Eve of Destruction" AND Baez doing "There But For Fortune" came out about the same time(roughly), and because both those songs addressed the human condition, FROM THE HEART, and were great tunes, they caught our attention...they became 'anthems of hipness'....and we took an interest in what these people were about. Shit, it started a trend in the 'mainstream' young, idealistic, looking for direction, youth who felt various degrees of disenfranchisement....YOU may just have been one of them...so ya' buy a guitar, and venture onto your lifelong quest..to be a wannabe....never writing or composing shit that was THIS hip.....but the political rap seemed close enough...and you cherry pick the stuff, that doesn't betray how really lame you were....and after a short while, you become the very establishment, you THOUGHT you were rebelling against.
We used to have an expression that described people like that.."If ya' 'turn-on' a lame, whatch you get, is a 'turned-on' lame".
....and you hope I'm talkin' 'bout somebody else.....and the biggest lames are the deepest entrenched ones, and will not, can not...even refuse to admit, that their life's approach, is so screwed up with political mental illness...they make excuses for every hypocrisy shoved down their idealistically gullible throats..just not to consider, that the very bullshit that they embrace, really gets in the way of the music and lyrics they COULD be writing and performing, that says WAY MORE as a 'social commentary' than the re-hashed, regurgitated political crap that they also savor....and in doing so, the only people who would even listen to those 'political protest songs' are just idiots who haven't flashed yet, that compassion for humans is NOT the job, nor the intention of ANY political persuasion....it's all window dressing the control games...and you are welcomely invited to be an ineffectual 'non-threat', and your music reflects it....with nothing to say..that isn't controlled!

.....and then you grow up to be old farts, still clinging to the life raft of some 'group identity'!!!......when you COULD HAVE been a musician/poet, with something REAL to say.....and one emerges, both the 'Conservatives' and 'Liberals' will dig up some sort of label('right' or 'left') to brand you, so they can both continue to stop up their ears...and deflect the truth, that you are the lame!!!

So Sincerely,

GfS