The singers club and proscription

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM

Actually, I was at a Copper Family house concert on Friday evening. Very enjoyable. Part of a busy weekend as I explained on Friday. Still a bit busy, back later.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 04:35 AM

"I appear to like folk music in all its wide interpretation "
The only onne you have givin is "whatever I choose to call it" - no good to me as a punter looking for folk song - bit selfish, doncha think?
I think the most telling statement so far on this thread is "finger in ear farming dirges " and the most depressing is the silence following it - "roll over the Coppers"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 03:05 AM

Proscription and prohibition in the end always fail.The reason I chose to not visit The Singers Club was as a result of a conversation with the "great Ewan MacColl".
Whilst I was in search of good folk music I was also in search of a good time, I very quickly realised that I was not going to have a good time, in fact It appeared to me that it might be a bit like going to Sunday School.
Why would I want to spend my evenings with a man over twice my age, who on my first meeting with him appeared to be authoritarian.
I was nineteen years old, there was plenty of choice of good quality folk music in other clubs and plenty of girls of my own age in other folk clubs other than the Singers Club.
None of that alters the fact that he was a very professional and skilled performer and fine songwriter.
Great man?Chacun Sa Gout, some people think John Wesley was a great man.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 03:05 AM

Proscription and prohibition in the end always fail.The reason I chose to not visit The Singers Club was as a result of a conversation with the "great Ewan MacColl".
Whilst I was in search of good folk music I was also in search of a good time, I very quickly realised that I was not going to have a good time, in fact It appeared to me that it might be a bit like going to Sunday School.
Why would I want to spend my evenings with a man over twice my age, who on my first meeting with him appeared to be authoritarian.
I was nineteen years old, there was plenty of choice of good quality folk music in other clubs and plenty of girls of my own age in other folk clubs other than the Singers Club.
None of that alters the fact that he was a very professional and skilled performer and fine songwriter.
Great man?Chacun Sa Gout, some people think John Wesley was a great man.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 03:05 AM

Proscription and prohibition in the end always fail.The reason I chose to not visit The Singers Club was as a result of a conversation with the "great Ewan MacColl".
Whilst I was in search of good folk music I was also in search of a good time, I very quickly realised that I was not going to have a good time, in fact It appeared to me that it might be a bit like going to Sunday School.
Why would I want to spend my evenings with a man over twice my age, who on my first meeting with him appeared to be authoritarian.
I was nineteen years old, there was plenty of choice of good quality folk music in other clubs and plenty of girls of my own age in other folk clubs other than the Singers Club.
None of that alters the fact that he was a very professional and skilled performer and fine songwriter.

Great man?Chacun Sa Gout, some people think John Wesley was a great man.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 16 - 02:13 AM

Thanks Jim.

I'll carry on getting my folk fix at folk clubs and folk venues. I appear to like folk music in all its wide interpretation of the genre. Including MacColl, including folk rock, including fusion, including, (and this is where it becomes the music of the people,) a podium for sharing your love of music with others without necessarily investing in pa gear and needing to get a gig. Music of the people indeed.

Just as most on here do, have done and hopefully always will do.

I am an observer of the subject title and see the singers club as part of a UK heritage. I think proscription to have been ultimately harmful and it's always saddened me to think how folk morphed into a clique in some clubs then withered. I can't help but think of the crusty idiots who sat there berating people for exhibiting what the buggers were ultimately advocating in the first place.

Proscription isn't entertainment. Folk certainly is.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:16 PM

No, sadly, GSS, I don't play an instrument but I do sing - or rather, I used to sing when I had somewhere to sing. Actually, while we're on the subject of singing, it was the great Ewan MacColl himself who persuaded me that it was possible for me to sing. Many, many years ago, I attended a weekend singers' workshop that he and Ms Seeger ran, in Huntingdon of all places, and it was, for me, a key educational experience.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:47 PM

THE SINGERS CLUB has not left a legacy.It was ephemeral.
MacColl on the other hand has left a fine collecton of self written songs

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:41 PM

The Wee Frees disapprove of a lot of things and like proscribing anything that might be fun, Shimrod I thought you might be of that persuasion my apologies for thinking you were a wee free or even a possibly a wee wee free.
Shimrod, out of curiosity do you play an instrument?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:55 PM

These people don't seem to understand that folk music existed long before the revival, or coffee houses for that matter.
The bothy ballad tradition goes back to the beginning of the nineteenth century, the Gaelic traditions goes back millennia
I remember concerts in our little village where the singing was all Gaelic and the audience all new how to sing along even those to whom Gaelic was a second language.
How many songwriters in Scotland today can come anywhere near to Burns Jacob, Tannahill or Henderson....old hat, dinosaurs, not a patch on Dylan or Bowie?
With the honourable exception of Davie or perhaps Dougie Mclean with his "Indigenous" CD

The Irish seem to have preserved their musical and dance traditions much better than Scotland, England or Wales....and I am sure that this is because they have been taught their own history and have a real pride in their nation.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 02:25 PM

"What would or could it do to help people enjoy music?"
You mean you need advice for that - I certainly don't? But there you go
You've already had this - but here's a part again:
"The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
It's not just a question of enjoying it - nobody has ever disputd that this is a fundamental requirement - it's what you enjoy, what you give people to enjoy and what you call what you give people to enjoy.
If you no longer enjoy folk song perhaps you should look elsewhere for your pleasure.
Calling what you do enjoy "folk" because you enjoy it just doesn't hack it - now that would be "silliness".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:45 PM

Away from all the side tracking and silliness.

How would proscription work today, if at all? What would you proscribe? What would or could it do to help people enjoy music?

There have been a few side issues here. Most people who like their folk music are too young to have experienced the singers' club but many like myself have had people tell dark forbidding tales of this institution. (I have, when a keen teenager had MacColl tell me off for not being indigenous when doing a floor turn at one of their bookings and that alone was enough for me.)

So. Are people saying it was good, bad or indifferent? Two hundred posts up to yet of reminiscing but nothing about its legacy.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:12 PM

"Did you use the word "pure", Jim?"
Not me - must have a doppelganger - otherwise, somebody is telling porkies to score points - must be Mr Arsehole
The Singers club was somewhere you could go and be guaranteed to come away with a bunch of folk songs ringing in your ears - fully accept that that's quire dinosaurial to many of today's folkies.
"that folk clubs accommodated finger in ear farming dirges "
Many thanks for that - says it far better than I ever could - never catered for "'60s Americana, wannabe Pentangles and mucky monologues" though - much preferred folk songs
These guys ain't very bright, are they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:29 PM

R Sole by name, R Sole etc.

I don't recall Jim using the word "pure". Did you use the word "pure", Jim?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:02 PM

"Music of the people."

Just reread what you are putting, irrelevant dinosaurs.

The Singers' Club was a time and event, not particularly influential in the rise of the folk clubs that came after, not of interest to the many people who recall old folk clubs with affection and enjoy what they see as folk now.

That people on here are putting forward the odd silly arbitrary way such things were run as a virtue is bemusing at best.

The U.K. Folk Clubs have a far stronger claim to a Genesis in US coffee clubs, Dylan, Paxton et al than the old men in fancy dress claiming a song they heard at their mother's knee is anything but something they got off an A L Lloyd album.

It is precisely because folk is far more than the narrow sub set of a sub set Jim Carroll is claiming as "pure" that folk clubs accommodated finger in ear farming dirges alongside '60s Americana, wannabe Pentangles and mucky monologues.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:45 AM

" I can pretty much always ride through the bits I personally may not enjoy so much."

After 45 years of going to folk clubs, I can't any more - especially as "the bits I personally may not enjoy so much" now seem to dominate many folk sessions. I just want to kick some ass and wring some necks!

"I believe in live and let live."

I don't! If you give 'em an even break, the f**kers will walk all over you. Hit first and then ask if there are any questions!

What the f**k have the Wee Frees got to do with anything? This is not about intolerance (although I admit, personally, to being a tiny bit intolerant) it's about taste.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM

I have no intention of suing anyone,
I believe in live and let live. Some people get their fun from belonging to religous sects[ the Wee Frees spring to mind]that disapprove of doing a lot of things on a sunday.
Although they are determined to prohibit and proscribe a lot of things,          I just steer clear of their meetings.
I choose which folk clubs, I play, I recently played Bodmin folk club and had a great night, if you are ever down there recommend it.
I would also recommend The Wilson Family Folk Club in Billingham, have you come across The Wilson Family, they are great singers, a club I have been booked at a few times.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM

"So there you go, GSS, pick the bones out of that and then sue me!"
Are you thinking of circulation a petition - please!!
Might I add - arrogant ****ers who insist in joining in solo performances whether they know the words on not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:05 AM

Shimrod, in one mostly instrumental Irish session I used to go to, we had someone quite capable of a longer Tam Lin. I got on well with the person but I'd never be convinced something like that was the right song for the occasion,

In maybe mean and unfair mode, I've sometimes felt the only good Bob Dylan song is the one written by Eric Bogle...

I suspect many of us do have our own loves and pet hates and I for one do not really fit the "broad folky mould" (ie. everything that may get defined as folk does not necessarily follow my own musical tastes). I'd probably in some instances be easier if people went a step further and did a Beatles song or even an acoustic Slade song than some of the stuff that lurks in the middle "acoustic" territory but that's just me...

... and if we are talking in terms of a club offering a mixture, I can pretty much always ride through the bits I personally may not enjoy so much.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:35 AM

"Shimrod, I am aware that you dsapprove of peopole singing," I am a little teapot" with the actions, you have now added another thing you disapprove of, people singing american songs in English accents, ..."

I, personally, dislike those things. Presumably, I am supposed to like and approve of everything that people insist on perpetrating in folk clubs these days? Just for the record, here's a list of other things that I dislike:

- Guitarists who think they're virtuosos and accompany their, often over-complicated and borderline inept, guitar playing with their voices (think about it).

- People who sing from crib sheets (learn the f**king words - it's not hard!!!).

- People who have a limited repertoire of a few comic songs (e.g. about teapots) and folk song parodies and insist on singing them week after week after f**king week. They may have been mildly amusing the first time (questionable) but they are just torture the 30th or 40th time!!

- A 30 verse ballad sung by one of the worst singers in the room. To add insult to injury it may be the only traditional song of the night!

- Pop songs sung by wilfully ignorant ... persons ... who have arbitrarily decided that "everything that folk sing is folk". I am reminded of a line in a post above: "People will judge what is folk based on whether it's their idea of folk ..." Give me f**king strength!!!

So there you go, GSS, pick the bones out of that and then sue me!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

You and Shimrod make it all sound like great fun.





































You andShimrod make it sound like fun

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 09:58 AM

correction - at 0810

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 09:55 AM

Guest Hootenanny: Many thanks for your New Year wishes at 0544, which are entirely reciprocated.

≈Michael≈

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 09:18 AM

One thing with accents is there I think I had to consciously avoid doing it. Not American in my case but I feel I used to be a prone to going "Oirish". Possibly still am if we get the combination of a few jars and say a "Black Velvet Band"...

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 09:01 AM

Lonnie Donegan sang Rock Island Line with a cockney accent.
Best not to try and fake an accent I think.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:46 AM

There was a separate thread, "Mid-Atlantic - why?" that ran from 2011-2014 [which I OPd BTW]. on the use of accents. No firm conclusion ever got reached. Does one ever!?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:10 AM

"do you approve of english singers singing american songs in attempted american accents?"
He didn't say that - he referred to "pseudo-Yanks" - ie - the strange mid-American accent adopted by folkies and pop singers alike.
I sing several American versions of traditional songs, (my particular favourite being, 'Fair Rosamund'), but only the ones that will transpose into my own accent.
Get it right (again) Dick. ]
"you also disapprove of people inadvertently allowing mobile phones to go off during concerts,"
Don't you? - you can get thrown out of a theatre or a cinema for allowing this to happen - surely folk songs are just as important - maybe not!
"do you approve of english singers singing american songs in attempted american accents?"
The said he didn't - I would agree with him aesthetically - they sound phoney.
The guest policy was to book good singers - phoney singing is not good.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:10 AM

MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:44 AM

Sir,
Thank you so much for those kind words. The fact that you don't welcome my contributions here fills me with deep sorrow and grief.

May I wish you a Happy New Year

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:01 AM

you see,Shimrod, I like singing a couple of Woody Guthrie songs, I normally sing them in my own english accent, I wouldnt want you to disapprove.Should i sing farewell to the gold in a new zealand accent?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:57 AM

Shimrod, I am aware that you dsapprove of peopole singing," I am a little teapot" with the actions, you have now added another thing you disapprove of, people singing american songs in English accents, you also disapprove of people inadvertently allowing mobile phones to go off during concerts, do you approve of english singers singing american songs in attempted american accents?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:43 AM

This discussion is good, hopefully it is getting rid of mythology surrounding the singers club, so it is quite obvious that singers from the floor singing worried man blues or american songs in english accents were not encouraged either.
What was the guest booking policy?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:15 AM

" Leave that principle to religions and other irrelevant movements."
Folk Song as 'The Voice of the People' is certainly far from "irrelevant" and, in my opinion, if far more important than any religion, numbers of 'bums on seats' or peoples' lack of understanding of or disinterest in what it is.
If I were to say to singers, "stop singing and concentrate on the study of the songs", there would be howls of "folk fascist" from Birkenhead to Brighton", and rightly so.
As it is, when the reverse comes from a folk club scene that can no longer guarantee the performance of folksongs in their clubs, I'm supposed to go into my nodding- dog mode and slink off into a corner.
Sorry - no can do.
While this forum, which describes itself as being for discussing "Traditional Music and Folklore Collection and Community" is a#available to me I will continue to raise these points, despite the folk-bobby-on-the-beat telling me to "move along there".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:01 AM

You just don't get it, do you "Seaham etc."? That particular club, at that particular time, had specific objectives and formulated a policy which helped them to meet those objectives. I only attended the Singers' Club a couple of times but on both occasions there were plenty of people in the audience - so those people were obviously able to live with the oh so terrible, cruel, narrow-minded, restrictive, fundamentalist (insert own adjective) policy.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:46 AM

Re my last posts: I remember a cabaret sketch in a university revue in the 50s, a song about being at an interminable all-night party, which contained the verse

It seemed such fun at a quarter to one
When that man started playing his guitar
But it's two hours later and hes not done a quarter
Of Burl Ives' repertoire

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Seaham Cemetry aka R Sole
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:35 AM

The best nights in folk clubs for me at any rate have been where a combination of eager local singers have been followed by a guest performer whose profession is entertaining with folk music.

The idea of sitting in judgement is really no more than counting bums on seats. People will judge what is folk based on whether it's their idea of folk and whether they will bother turning up again at that venue. I doubt anybody needs to follow the ideas of past generations rather than do their own take. Leave that principle to religions and other irrelevant movements.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:20 AM

To clarify what might be a bit of over-ellipsis in that last post, and pre-empt my being put down for it --

I know that "Worried Man" is not in the Burl Ives Book, but a song popularised by the Carter Family; but its use by English singers in the 1950s is relevant to the point being made as a whole.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:40 AM

Yes. Until we learnt better, we were all getting our songs from The Burl Ives Songbook. I remember the first time I heard Stan
Kelly-Bootle was at a Downing College Cambridge ball in 1953, & he led off with Worried Man Blues; likewise Rory McEwen, as cabaret at a Cambridge Union ball in 1954, started off with Ives's version of The Fox. It wasn't till The Singing Island & The Seeds Of Love came out that we mended our ways.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:03 AM

"We also Know that a visiting floorsinger was laughed at for singing the Rock Island Line with a cockney accent."

I would probably have laughed as well (or sighed heavily)! In the post-war period, guitar-based American style music was becoming more and more popular in the UK. I would guess that there were, at that time, lots of singers, performing that type of music, who were looking for a platform. A club in central London, that encouraged singers from the floor, represented an ideal platform for them. I would guess that part of the reason for the Singers Club's proscriptive policy was to avoid being swamped by Cockney pseudo-Yanks!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:53 AM

"We also Know that a visiting floorsinger was laughed at for singing the Rock Island Line with a cockney accent."
By Peggy Seeger - a lifetime ago - she apologised in public (on The Living Tradition letter page) and explained fully the policy of the club regarding singing songs from your own national backgrounds.
In the early days, the policy of not using musical instruments or singing only traditional songs extended to far more than "one or two clubs" - it was never the policy of the Singers Club, on the contrary, the stated aim was to develop instrumental styles and to encourage the composition of new songs using traditional forms.
Peggy edited more than 20 issues of 'The New City Songster' an occasional magazine she set up made up of new songs from all over the English-speaking world.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:34 AM

One point has been pointed out by Jim, The Rules applied only to the residents.
We also Know that a visiting floorsinger was laughed at for singing the Rock Island Line with a cockney accent.
It has also been established that singing with musical instruments was not proscribed as it was in one or two other clubs.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:44 AM

One of the depressing things about it, Mr Hootenanny, has been your pertinacious refusal to identify yourself. Gives rise to my mind to all sorts of probably irrational suspicions as to what could be your motivations for acting so. "What has he got to hide?" is the thought that rises unbidden to mind every time your pseudonym appears at the top of a post. "Your problem!" is perhaps likely to be your reaction. But I am not the only one to have made this point, or to have been made uncomfortable by this irrational reticence of yours. Are you 'wanted' or something? As long as you go on hiding under this cloak of anonymity, you are not wanted here, by me for one at any rate. Your contributions, some admittedly thought-provoking and worthwhile, are not worth the irritation caused. Quite glad of your assurance above, in fact, that we don't know one another But at least you have the advantage of me as to ID.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:40 AM

Thanks Ake - a bit more positive and incisive than the evasive waffle that proceeds your posting
Nice to find something we agree on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:35 AM

Jim, One of the best and most emotive posts that I have read on this forum.
Excellent, it's when money or "celebrity" becomes the driving force that the music suffers.

This music used to be bigger and more valuable than any of those who performed it ....some of the finest moments in our club involved the audience actually taking over a song and presenting it in all it's emotional glory.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:28 AM

Guest you are right. This is a rather depressing thread.I apologise for my part in it. All I have tried to do was point out that some comments made putting down clubs never visited and people not known by the person making them were not always correct.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:00 AM

"Ah but in the eyes of Jim Carroll, taking money is obscene."
Why do people do this?
I have never at any time said this, nor do I believe it.The dishonesty of such statements is as much proof of my arguments as the fact that nobody yet has come up with an alternative definition.
There is nothing wrong with taking money for folk music - there never has been.
It's when 'taking money' becomes the main and sometimes sole objective that is wrong.
Iv'e know and worked with people who have been paid for singing and research - we wouldn't have been able to carry out some of the work we've done and made it available without the generous grant we received from the Arts Council of Ireland.
The club scene I was part of was a voluntary affair - run by people who dedicated themselves to the music, from setting up clubs, booking guests..... to taking the glasses down to the bar at the end of the night..... all done for the love of the music.
We had singers who were paid for singing and were happy to have them, but we were equally happy that we didn't have to rely on them, as we had our own singers who would be the week after week without payment - they were the backbones of the clubs we helped run.
"Still, luckily folk music is doing well "
No folk scene that doesn't know its folk arse from its folk elbow, is unable to define the music it purports to be promoting and thus, is unable to guarantee a visitor that he or she will hear the folk music they have come to know over many years - is not "doing well".
The club scene has shrunk in size and quality since I came into it - in some cases, someone singing traditional songs is not welcome - is even a cause for humour (described above).
The scene has become a cultural receptacle in which to place their own particular taste in music - classical, pop.... whatever takes their fancy.
Not to say that some clubs don't do what they say they do, and do it well; but far to few to make a difference.
The revival has by and large become divorced from the music - it has lost the objectives that set it on the road back in the fifties.
What is so refreshing about the scene over here is that the thousands of youngsters playing it for the first time know what it is and base what they do on what they know.
Whatever the do with it in future, they have a base to come back to come back to - a firm foundation has been built and traditional music has been guaranteed a future lasting at least another two generations judging by the ages of the musicians now playing.
The singing has yet to sort itself out, but recent national projects have set it in motion.
We can go out five nights a week in this one-street town and listen to music played - from passably well to superb.
We can listen to or watch performances, or documentaries on traditional music most nights on national television or local or national radio - programmes on different areas and styles, on music and history, over the last three weeks, excellent documentaries on MacColl (by Christie Moore) and on Luke Kelly.
In a couple of weeks time we will be attending a local history talk on street literature, and later, will be giving two - one on songs on the history of this County, another on the older singers - all to people who are not involved in the music scene.
The County has an excellent song and music website which has two librarians largely dedicated to its maintenance.
Limerick University is in the process of taking our collections for their 'World Music Department' - a website dedicated to Traveller song, music, storytelling and folklore has been mooted by them - they have already been part of the revival of Traveller traditions within their community.
None of this is down to us, other than having been able to push on an open door when we tried to make our collections more widely available.
That's what "doing well" means.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:36 AM

Ah but in the eyes of Jim Carroll, taking money is obscene. Singers should be grateful for the opportunity for him to berate them and tell them they aren't folk.

This is a rather depressing thread. Still, luckily folk music is doing well and reaching to new younger generations and many different places and formats for enjoying the living tradition.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 03:16 PM

I would have thought a club that booked Pete Seeger was worth supporting
any club that charges an admission fee becomes commercial, after all it has to pay the guests it books.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 02:57 PM

Would such a club would work now, and is there a need for it?

If there are enough like minded people in an area, there would be a need and it would work.

Every club and session I've been to a few times has had some form of "rules". OK they may be unwritten but there is always some sort idea as to what is appropriate for the occasion.

I'd say that sort of rule/understanding would include "anything goes" but I don't think I've been to anything that really is. It usually seems to extend things into the pop/"acoustic" type direction but I can't imagine many being too happy if "anything goes" was interpreted as welcoming operatic arias.

Whatever. I don't see any point in arguing over how someone else's club or session runs. As far as I'm concerned, someone could set up an event with no instruments or no singing rules, another, traditional only, another "anything goes" and others somewhere in between, and I'm happy.

As a listener and participant, I simply pick the events that suit me best in my area. My first priority is an Irish instrumental session but I can also enjoy some rather broader events.

From a purely selfish perspective, I would loose out if everything became specialised/rigid and if everything had to cater for all interests.

My wider view is that I feel that the broader folk scene is healthier with a diversity of events each running its own way that it would be with one right way for all clubs imposed.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 02:36 PM

Don't you dare tell me what has a place on this thread - I was pointing out the differences between it and the B and B - one appraching music as a business, the other committed to wider and less lucrative activities.
Not "implying" anything, just telling it as it was.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 02:27 PM

Jim,

If the Singers Club were booking the people that I mentioned I would probably have come along more often.

The fact that the Singers Club supported various political causes has absolutely no place in this thread. What are you implying? - sorry forget that, it's a question. It looks like you are starting a pissing contest.

Thank you and Good night