The singers club and proscription

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 05:49 PM

I thought it was a fairly open secret. My name is Bryan Creer. I am on the committee of Lewes Saturday Folk Club. I play English concertina and fiddle and rarely sing. What else do you need to know?
(I have never eaten snails but their cousins, moule mariniere, are very nice.)

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 05:57 PM

The person who calls himself The Snail on Mudcat does not use this name because takes a gastronomic interest in Gastropoda, but it refers to the statue in Lewes of an ammonite sculpted by Peter Randall-Page commonly called 'The Snail' in the town. I'm sure that Bryan won't mind me mentioning that. AAARGH! Now I've gone and mentioned his name!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 08:04 PM

"There was no bar in the folk club in the" cellar upstairs"
Didn't say there was Dick, but the night we were there there was an exceptionally loud juke-box thumpng through the floor.Nobody suggested yo sang from a song sheet - why is it, d'you reckon, that whenever I come in contact with you I get visions of flamingos being used as croquet mallets?
"You responded with personal attacks on me calling me belligerent and arrogant."
And you approached what I had put down with contemptuous aggression without having the courtesy to say why
Sorry Hoot, don't recognise the 'certain gentleman' you describe - it wasn;'t the 'certain gentleman' I knew from the late sixties onward - as I said, I hope nobody ever takes me to task for my behaviour a lifetime ago.
I never remember that "certain gentleman" shouting down a Irish speaking woman singer because she took the trouble to explain her songs, or tried to wreck one of anybody's radio programmes by sending fake recordings of field singers, or humiliating someone on stage by pinning "I am a twat on the back of their chair" or persuading a well-meaning elderly lady to post snails to anybody's house by pretending they were needed to feed a pet hedgehog, or lying on television by claiming that album notes claiming certain approach to folk song, were written by them or shouting down audience members at a public discussion on folk song.
The revival in those days was a bit of a snake pit in those days and a hell of a lot of people tried their hands at snake charming - it seems complaints of bad behaviour are still as selective now as they were then.   
The C.U. was as I described it - half empty - a thumping juke box (from the bar) and poor performances.
A cellar downstairs wasn't much better on a previous visit (though with more punters and better beer on that occasion.
Well - there we go - Bryan's name (I used to think it had something to do with 'The Magic Roundabout' before he kindly put me right) - The Cellar upstairs, half-a-century old urban legends, and the usual bout of corpse kicking - anything rather than a discussion of the work and ideas MacColl left behind, "If winter comes, can name-changes and army records be far behind -
What is it with you people - is a rational discussion on folksong really that difficult?"?
G'night all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 08:36 PM

Count me in as somebody else who's only had good experiences at the Cellar Upstairs. It's one of the two regular folk events in London I make a point of going to on my rare visits there (the other being the Lord Hood session in Greenwich).

Jim's description is so bizarrely out of line with everybody else's that I wonder if he's getting his pubs mixed up.

I never remember that "certain gentleman" shouting down a Irish speaking woman singer because she took the trouble to explain her songs, or tried to wreck one of anybody's radio programmes by sending fake recordings of field singers, or humiliating someone on stage by pinning "I am a twat on the back of their chair" or persuading a well-meaning elderly lady to post snails to anybody's house by pretending they were needed to feed a pet hedgehog, or lying on television by claiming that album notes claiming certain approach to folk song, were written by them or shouting down audience members at a public discussion on folk song.

All I can work out from that is that you're annoyed and like being annoyed. I haven't the faintest idea what all that bile is about and I have not the least flicker of interest in having it explained. Go away, calm down and shut up about it.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM

"Jim's description is so bizarrely out of line with everybody else's that I wonder if he's getting his pubs mixed up."
Nope - unless they moved from the one near Euston Square.
Sorry - I find this tiresome - maybe fols are happy with half empty clubs with singes reading from crib sheets and a juke box thumping from downstairs - not the folk scene I enjoyed for so long.
I'll look in later to see if anybody's interested in discssing the topic in hand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:46 AM

Half a century ago, in a specific club which had specific objectives and was operating under specific historical conditions, "proscription" was probably completely reasonable (although, apparently, was considered to be too draconian for some - who have never stopped moaning about it).

The chief "proscriber" is long dead and can't 'get' anyone now. So it is up to the present generation of performers - like the initiator of this thread - to decide whether "proscription" is good or bad. So what do you think, GSS, is "proscription" good or bad?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:08 AM

Surely the question is about WHAT is to be proscribed?

One would not expect to be allowed to play traditional music in a jazz club, or bubble gum pop in a Country and Western club.

The reason for forming a specific type of club is to promote that particular genre and bring it to a larger number of people.

In the beginning of our club the large turnouts was the "new" experience of sharing the old songs the magic of the blend of voices, raising the roof in one song and shedding a little tear in the next.
Gradually the "performers" moved in and people began listening rather than participating....."evolution"/"devolution" took place, the crowds began to drift away as the singer song-writers took over.

Few wanted to listen to their refrains of self pity.

I began to be about getting big names to fill the venue.....the revival had been hijacked and strangled.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:33 AM

Thanks, Bryan. Moules indeed delicious -- so are escargots, {but v expensive alas), so long as one likes garlic, which is their predominant flavour when cooked à la Bourguignonne. I was fortunate in that during my late teens & 20s my mother ran a S Ken hotel which belonged to her brother,where I lived & which had in its basement a v fashionable* French restaurant so I had access to moules & snails & such -- so long as I didn't overindulge or Uncle Alec might have had something to say!

≈M≈

*Diana Dors, Theo Bikel, Gilbert Harding, Marquis of Milford Haven among the regulars.

Apols for drift. Not much to do with Singers -- tho I used to sing there!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:21 AM

No idea how those who wish to "proscribe" could execute their directive because most places use the term "folk" in its widest terminology.

I help run a folk club and thirty years ago I bet it was mostly what some in here reckon to be their previous interpretation of folk.

Now I joke that I have friends in the room if anyone else turns up and sings a traditional song. But we like many others up and down the land enjoy what the living tradition of folk has turned our music into.

The healthy number of bums on seats infers lots of people know what their folk is. I doubt though that they'd try to proscribe it to others. I'm sure we leave that to those who think proscribing in an evenings entertainment is a good thing. Nowt as queer as folk.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:24 AM

One would not expect to be allowed to play traditional music in a jazz club

Actually, Lonnie Donegan started singing American folk songs by Leadbelly, and similar material, in the interval of jazz sessions with the likes of the Ken Colyer Jazzmen.

If, for a comparison, you look at jazz and its following in the 1950s and, to a certain extent, the 1960s - as I'm sure Hoot, among others here, will remember - there were similar schisms to those described in the folky world. Those believing in the purity of the early New Orleans sounds were dubbed "mouldy figs" by those know by the other, modernist side as "dirty boppers"! All pretty hilarious in retrospect - and those were the days when jazz clubs were far more numerous than they are today. A bit like the folk scene in some ways. Where are the jazz clubs now - mostly long gone, with what music there is being played in pubs and bars.

I played jazz in pubs and the odd club in the late '60s up to the mid '80s - in London and then in Brighton - and remember clearly that the repertoires in those days were actually quite eclectic. Our own band played stuff as diverse as Herbie Hancock's "Watermelon Man" (in Mongo Santamaria style) and "Canal Street Blues" - a real mixture of old and new, with all sorts of things thrown in - even the odd Beatles number. All that mattered was that the tunes were worthy of playing and getting into melodically and harmonically.

Musicians will not be constrained from playing what they want to play - because music is a complex and constantly evolving art. And the club scene is not the be-all and end-all as far as venues are concerned. As far as my own personal tastes are concerned, my preferences are to make music communally in a session or to play for dancing - both exhilarating and tremendous fun.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:51 AM

I note that the person who was the subject of my comments in my post of 13 Jan 16 - 04:25 PM has returned to this thread with posts on 13 Jan 16 - 08:04 PM and 14 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM. Both of posts are of the combative nature that we have come to expect from him rather than the discursive nature that would help to further the development of the thread. In neither of these subsequent posts does he address the points that I made about the unkind and unworthy comments that he made about one of London's deservedly most popular folk clubs. I would have thought that he should return with at least an explanation, at best an apology, but no, he chooses to ignore my comments and carry on in his usual antagonistic and bellicose manner.
Which figure in public life does this remind me of? I am thinking of our present prime minister who when challenged about some misdeed in parliament on in interview always avoids a direct answer and raises his voice whilst changing the subject to one that reinforces his entrenched positions.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:55 AM

"Musicians will not be constrained from playing what they want to play -"
Course they won't - but clubs that advertise themselves as 'folkclubs' commit themselves to providing a certain type of music
I repeat - I'd love to be a fly on the wall at a local pop venue if a singer turned up with 'selections from the Joe Heaney Songbook'
It's misleading to talk about constraining anybody - it's about giving what you say you give and respecting the music for its importance
"Now I joke that I have friends in the room if anyone else turns up and sings a traditional song" - how sad, but my point is well made.
"what the living tradition of folk has turned our music into"
What has our tradition of folk turned into exactly and where does the Bonmnzo Dog Doodah Band fit in?
We don't have a 'living tradition' anymore - would that we did.
What goes on in folk clubs is as divorced from the real world as The Atheneum and in no way speaks for people's culture any more, let alone change it - specially when it is possible to take the piss when a folk song is sung.
Folk song has not touched the world outside the clubs and until it does enough to give the wider population a choice of changing long - establishd terms, the old definitions remain
"widest terminology. "
Define that "widest terminology".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:03 AM

M'Lud, in support of the case I made in my previous post; I would like to present as evidence Exhibit A - the post at 14 Jan 16 - 05:55 AM

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:30 AM

Didn't understand a word of that last Vic - are you really calling me a liar and suggesting that I made up what Pat and I experienced the when we described our experiences at the aforementioned club?
That is what we found - maybe that's people's idea of a good club - not mine I'm afraid.
I occasionally attended the club as far back as Kentish Town, I know, respect and like the organiser - I was looking forward to the evening, especially as it was the only one on offer that night and we were staying within walking distance of it.
Maybe I shouldn't have named it - but then again - that would have taken away a now overused excuse for not responding to the points I have raised
Try another one from the interview and see if we have any better luck   

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.   
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it.   Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening.    And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss.   If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference.   It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know.   It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical……………
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:47 AM

Jim Carroll
And you approached what I had put down with contemptuous aggression without having the courtesy to say why
Jim, I said precisely why I thought your statement was nonsense in the following sentences, citing MacColl in the process. Anyway, I learnt from a master.
MacColl quoted by you -
"No", they say, "the songs are simple", and all the rest of it.   And that is nonsense, that is utter nonsense.   
The implication being that if you can read and write, then you are going to be a better singer than if you can't read or write, and we know that's nonsense.
I'm sure you wouldn't call MacColl belligerent and arrogant.

A long time ago, I gave an honest answer to a question you had posed and you said that my response was "crass". As I said, Jim, "Do as you would be done by" perhaps without reference to flamingoes and croquet mallets.

What is it with you people - is a rational discussion on folksong really that difficult?
A good question but I really don't think you are in a position to criticise others.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:48 AM

In my post of the 13th I inadvertently said the the visiting guest so rudely interrupted was Derroll Adams. My apologies, that should have read Guy Carawan.

Jim it doesn't matter that you don't recognise the certain gentleman, perhaps I should not have used the word gentleman, but if you were at the Singers Club as long and as often as you infer then you certainly knew him.

Oh, and you haven't answered my query about the Singers Club not being commercial.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 07:45 AM

Actually, Vic, I think the concrete ammonite in Lewes is also known as Brian The Snail and we both took our names from our childhood hero in The Magic Roundabout. Why Jim thinks I've ever said otherwise, I don't know.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 07:51 AM

Re The Cellar Upstairs - a folk club which has put on consistently good music mostly from the traditional end of the spectrum for decades now - it should also be said in defence of the organiser that she has had a number of venue changes forced on her over the years, and some venues have been better than others. No folk club organiser deliberately chooses a room with a loud jukebox downstairs, but pubs are pubs and landlords sometimes act unpredictably. If loud music becomes a persistent problem then you move - but to where? Finding an appropriate venue these days is the bane of many a club organiser's life.

I should also say of CU that I've played there a number of times and can't remember ever seeing a crib sheet in use. Some of the floor singers, and all of the residents there, are extremely good, .

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM

I should also say of CU that I've played there a number of times and can't remember ever seeing a crib sheet in use. Some of the floor singers, and all of the residents there, are extremely good 

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 08:48 AM

"'m sure you wouldn't call MacColl belligerent and arrogant."
Nor would I describe anything he or anybody said as "rubbish" without qualifying it - "I don't agree" maybe   
"residents there, are extremely good "
I didn;'t comment on the residents - I commented on the general atmosphere an some poor performances - particularly stumbled-through crib sheets, which can drag the best of evenings down - it was a poor night, and if I'd been visiting the place (or worse still, if it was my first experience of a folk club) I would never have come back again.y
None of which answers my question - did I lie - or - if I didn't and it was just a poor night and are such poor nights acceptable?
"but if you were at the Singers Club as long and as often as you infer then you certainly knew him"
Sombody else lacking a sense of irony - I knew who you were referring to - who else would it be.
I outlined the backbiting that went on in those days and is still common - and answer came there none - again - why would there?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 09:02 AM

Jim,

You still haven't answered my simple question.

The fact that you know to whom I was referring makes me wonder why he was allowed into the club and why nobody on that occasion at least did anything about his boorish behaviour. I think I know the answer but I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 09:50 AM

"The fact that you know to whom I was referring makes me wonder why he was allowed into the club"
I have answered inasmuch as that was th way things were in those days - from many people
Do you think Bob Davenport should have been thrown out of Musical Traditions for behaving the way he did towards the lady from the Aran Islands - excused by some.
Somebody described (as a joke) somebody purring a notice on the back of Maccoll's chair reading "I am a twat" - should that individual have ben thrown out (even though he was one of the organisers)?
Do I have to go through the Brune thing again, which at least one anti-MacCollite has defended?
If Ewan behaved the way he did, it was unacceptable - it was over half a century ago and that was not the Ewan I knew for twenty years.
Nobody I can think of made a contribution to folk song that Ewan did - nobody, yet it is still impossible to discuss that contribution without first having to wade through this ancient garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 09:51 AM

It is not what you thought of the circumstances of one particular visit to the Cellar Upstairs that is important, it is that you have seen fit to decry a very worthwhile club in such a gross, unfair and public way.

The club was not in your opinion well-attended. What were the reasons for this? The club has been forced to move because of pub closure in an area of re-development. The organiser searched every pub, club and venue in the area and even now has been been forced to spread her club meetings between two venues, a far from ideal solution. My heart goes out to her. Many a less tenacious person would have given up. Club organisers who had a change of venue forced on them will know that every move takes you back to square one and you have to patiently build up your audience again. Any concerned, sympathetic person would want to encourage her for her efforts, but no, Jim Carroll says it was half-empty and asks if we think if he is telling a lie about this.

As well as losing audience when a move takes place, a club is likely to lose some of its supporting floor performers. Again an understanding person would realise this and know why the organiser might have to call on a singer who wanted to rely on written words. If Jim had made a general point about singers with crib sheets, he would have found widespread support on Mudcat, Certainly he would have me fulminating against the practice, but no, Jim decided to relate it to one particular incident in the Cellar Upstairs club.... and why was this club in particular mentioned by Jim? Read back and you will find that was because of the need he feels for incessant bickering and point-scoring between himself and Dick Miles.

Thirdly there is the matter of the intrusive recorded music. I have nothing to add to what Brian Peters has said on this point except that Jim claims to have know that organiser well. Could he let us know if he thinks that she is the sort of person who is likely to put up with this situation week after week with doing something about it? Would Jim like to suggest a positive way of helping her on this one rather than carping?

Finally, and this is my final statement in this thread, could I ask people - the next time they have a drink in their hands - to drink a toast to Sheila Miller and her ilk? Long may they continue their thankless, unpaid task of bringing the best performers that they can afford to their audiences. May they be protected from the moaning Minnies of this world!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 10:48 AM

Still no simple straightforward non ranting reply from Jim to my question. I guess I should know better by now.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 11:29 AM

I found Sheila polite friendly and welcoming the standard of floor singers was good includng the mighty Tom Paley the resident singer was good, the booked guests were excellent, no one performed with a crib sheet,neither was there a problem with extraneous music came through from anywhere.
Shimrod,
OVER MANY YEARS I have consistently been asked to do a gig at Cork Singers Club, the club has a rule WHICH proscribes musical instrument accompaniment.I DO NOT HAVE TO DO THE GIG, but I find it an nteresting challenge so I SPEND A COUPLE OF DAYS PRACTISING REPERTOIRE UNACCOMPANIED., and do the club.
I seem to remember Shimrod that you got very annoyed because performers were doing the actions in the "I AM A LITTLE TEACUP SONG" you appeared to want to proscribe that activity is that correct?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 11:56 AM

Hi Will, I was actually referring to a "modern jazz" club.

I loved traditional jazz, in the fifties it WAS the popular music.
The Clyde Valley Stompers, Acker Bilk, Chris Barber.....great stuff.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 01:01 PM

"It is not what you thought of the circumstances of one particular visit to the Cellar Upstairs that is important"
It's how I experienced a night Vic - I had been used to good nights there and I thought "Oh dear, not another good club down the tubes"
Dick first raised the Club - I responded.
Maybe I should not have, maybe it was just an off-night, but it was bad enough to find disturbing because of the clubs past record.
What aree you peole on - Dick finds it permissible to open a thread on a club he admits he has never been to - I have no idea how many of the people who have given the Singers a kicking ever visited it or how many people who still snide at MacColl's approach to sng ever heard him speak... but when I relate a contrary experience and opinion to those off Dick's - burning torches and pitchforks
Who the hell do you people think you are... folk police writ large.
I have no idea of the reasons for the bad night - I only know it was.
I'm happy to learn that it is now doing a good job, but based on the last time I was there - Pat tells me it was longer ago than I thought it was - it wasn't then.
How dare you people deride one club and object when I give an opinion of another?
Double standards or what?
"Could he let us know if he thinks that she is the sort of person who is likely to put up with this situation week after week with doing something about it?"
I wouldn't have thought so - Sheila's dedication down the years has been extremely creditable - hence my surprise and disappointment.
"bickering and point-scoring between himself and Dick Miles."
I really don't know how to handle Dick's persistent bad behaviour
which has included threats of violence at one stage and which, (by his own admission), has led him to him having been thrown off one forum
I realise my response has been somewhat intolerant occasionally and have attempted to ignore him - not always easy
I have attempted to be polite with him here, successfully to a degree.
Thanks a bunch for raking over old coals Vic, extremely helpful in promoting intelligent discussion - much appreciated, .I'm sure.
Anyway - sorry to interrupt the public pillorying - carry on chaps.
"Still no simple straightforward non ranting reply from Jim to my question"
And still no response to my reply - which I didn't expect
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 01:35 PM

"I seem to remember Shimrod that you got very annoyed because performers were doing the actions in the "I AM A LITTLE TEACUP SONG" you appeared to want to proscribe that activity is that correct?"

Uuuummm!!?? The "I AM A LITTLE TEA CUP SONG" you say? I may have heard it - but I've only got a dim memory of it - probably as a result of its sheer crassness!. I suspect that it probably would annoy me - with or without the actions! Would I "proscribe" it though? Well, I'd probably have to be restrained from nutting the singer!

Anyway, LITTLE TEA CUP songs notwithstanding, I asked for your opinion on "proscription" GSS. I wrote:

"So it is up to the present generation of performers - like the initiator of this thread - to decide whether "proscription" is good or bad. So what do you think, GSS, is "proscription" good or bad?"

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 01:36 PM

"How dare you people deride one club and object when I give an opinion of another?"

I don't think I've ever derided the Singers' Club on here - quite apart from the fact that it was all before my time, I've said before that the policy of encouraging singers to seek material from their own area played a part (for instance) in getting Harry Boardman and others to explore North West traditions, and was therefore a Good Thing.

However, the Singers' Club is long gone, and beyond harm from even the most malevolent Mudcatter, whereas Cellar Upstairs - whilst very much alive - is vulnerable to damage by negative comments on a folk music forum. The Sheila Millers and Vic Smiths of this world are on essentially the same side as you, Jim - give them a break.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 01:54 PM

I have not derided the singers club, either.
I think MacColl was a great songwriter and a fine performer.
I have absolutely no idea what the rest of Jims





















post is about.
Shimrod my original post was asking others their opinion.
I do not have a dogmatic opinion on the subject, all i can say is that no club that i have run has ever been proscriptive.
The night I visited the Cellar Upstairs I had a most enjoyable evening, the club was well run the standard of singing was good.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

Jim,


I guess you mean the question re Bob Davenport. Well if so I didn't witness that but if what you say is true then he should have been ejected or asked to apologise, although I guess that the second option wouldn't have had much effect.

Is that the question? does this count as a reply?

Why are you so reticent in giving a reply to a simple question?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:04 PM

"Well if so I didn't witness that but if what you say is true then he should have been ejected or asked to apologise, "
Maybe his should, but he wasn't and he has been defended here in a most insulting and hypocritical manner - it's OK for him to behave as he did - does (not too long ago), but its unacceptable for Ewan so have done so fifty odd years ago - doesn't that count as double-standards in your book?
Likewise - it's OK for people who were never there to attack a club and a quarter century dead singer, but not for me who was there to criticise an evening at a club - double standards again.
My points covered far more that Bob's behaviour - the rest you choose to ifgnore, as you have Bob to date.
I don't think I've ever derided the Singers' Club on here
Didn't say you had Brian - you don't seem the sort.
"However, the Singers' Club is long gone, and beyond harm from even the most malevolent Mudcatter,"
Unfortunately, the myths surrounding the Singers Club have, and are still creating an apparently insurmountable barrier in discussing a valuable (in my opinion) body of work on folk song.
If it were just a matter of who likes what, I really wouldn't bother, but it goes far beyond that and affects much of what has influenced our own work and of my life.
If I didn't believe the music and all its implications was worth fighting for, I really wouldn't be arsed - life really is too short.
As far as The Cellar Upstairs - I am delighted to accept that my view of the club on that particular night was a one-off. I apologise unreservedly to Sheila and all concerned if I have be n any way unfair.
I accept what people here say about the role played by the club.
I do not apologise for describing our experiences, though perhaps I should not have responded to Dick and identified the club I was criticising.
I still find it absolutely outrageous that people should feel free to lay into MacColl and the Singers Club and forbid me from giving my own experinces (not second hand and not dishonest).
It serves only to confirm my somewhat jaundiced opinion of the present revival in Britain - hopefully they will make a better fist of it here in Ireland, where the scene is in its ascendancy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:07 PM

Sorry Hoot - missed a bit
"Why are you so reticent in giving a reply to a simple question?"
If you check you will ind I have answered your question in full - several times over
You have yet to respond to my reply and answer my points.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:07 PM

Sorry Hoot - missed a bit
"Why are you so reticent in giving a reply to a simple question?"
If you check you will ind I have answered your question in full - several times over
You have yet to respond to my reply and answer my points.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:49 PM

Jim Carroll
I still find it absolutely outrageous that people should feel free to lay into MacColl and the Singers Club

Yet you seem to feel justified in laying into the present revival in Britain and everyone involved in it. What was that about double standards?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:08 PM

If I did run a folk club I would possibly proscribe keg beer. "Unfortunately, the myths surrounding the Singers Club have, and are still creating an apparently insurmountable barrier in discussing a valuable (in my opinion) body of work on folk song"
Precisely why I opened this thread to try and find the truth and dispel myth, if you were not so aggressively defensive and thought for a minute that might dawn on you.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:11 PM

Jim,

You should take the blinkers off some time calm down and give straight answers to simple questions.

I don't understand your anger at people who don't share your view. Virtually every time it's an angry retort.

The Singers Club was just one club among many as was the B&B. As I have said before different strokes for different folks.

Enjoy your evening

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:30 PM

Shimrod, I do remember[from some years ago] two of your posts clearly, one was your hatred of mobile phones going off during concerts, the other was performers performing the song "i am a little teapot" with the actions, presumably you would proscribe these two things if you were running a folk club.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:39 PM

here we are Shimrod, you even started a thread on it, a veritable storm in a teacup,if you will excuse the pun, very cross you were shimrod.
Subject: Folklore: Songs with actions: An annoying fad?
From: GUEST,Shimrod - PM
Date: 19 Aug 07 - 02:37 PM

I'm becoming increasingly annoyed with people in folk clubs who insist on singing 'songs with actions'. You know the sort of thing:

"I'm a little tea pot,
Short and stout,
Here's my handle (put left hand on left hip)
Here's my spout (extend right arm)"

Do such singers really expect the grown men and women in the audience to join in with this infantile type of nonsense? It seems as though they do - and anyone who refuses to join in (like me, for example) is regarded as some sort of 'killjoy'.

The fact is that I find it unfunny, embarrassing and demeaning to be expected to behave as though I am still an infant and, as far as I am concerned, such silly, childish ditties have absolutely nothing to do with folk music. What does anyone else think?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:44 PM

No, GSS, you've got me there, I'm afraid! I might, possibly, have said something like that but I honestly have no recollection of it. Anyway, I should point out, that disliking something is not the same has having an ambition to "proscribe" it - is it?

I would be tempted to nut a 'little tea potter' though!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:57 PM

You definitely said it.
Let me make it clear to you, I started this thread to dispel mythology surrounding the Singers club, My views on the singers clubs proscriptiveness are not relevant, I was asking for opinions.
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 10 Jan 16 - 06:43 AM

As les in chorlton asked and to prevent thread drift. I started a new thread.
according to the dictionary, proscription is the imposing of restraint and restriction.The Singers club HAD RULES RELATING TO THE PERFORMANCE OF MUSIC, therefore it was proscriptive.
That suited some people but not everybody.
Would such a club would work now, and is there a need for it?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:13 PM

The Singers Club was just one club among many as was the B&B

When you used the acronym before I assumed you were saying you'd thrown a folkie alcoholic out of a bed and breakfast you ran at the time. But this suggests some other meaning. What is it?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:40 PM

"Yet you seem to feel justified in laying into the present revival in Britain and everyone involved in it. What was that about double standards?"

Present revival in Britain?....what revival would that be then.

Playing "traditional" instruments does not equate to a folk revival.
The young groups I hear play something that falls between the genres, soulless noise. Impossible the dance to and with no emotional content.

All searching for a sound to sell their CD.
Is there a name for this new genre? It's certainly not folk music.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 08:04 PM

"You should take the blinkers off some time calm down and give straight answers to simple questions."
You have not responded to one of mine Hoot - the double standards of slamming MacColl for something he may have done over fifty years ago while ignoring the fact that everyone was behaving similarly (you have been given at least 4 examples)
The dangers of commercialising the revival as appeared to be happening at the B and B via Malcom Nixon
What happened when the revival became part of the pop scene and then was spat out by the industry (giving examples of what happened to C&W and Jazz).
The fact that the B and B survived a matter of a few years after MacColl left, and The Singers continuing up to at least a year after Ewan died (around 1990)
The contribution that Ewan made with his own songs and the hundreds he researched and put back into circulation
The work Ewan did with less experienced singers while all the other folk superstars got on with their own careers      
The fact that, to the end of his life, Ewan continued to champion folk song while others drifted into music hall, poorly performed pop song.... and anything goes (as displayed amply by many examples here)......
All these and more have been put to you and others and you have remained totally silent on them - and you demand an answer to a question I have already responded to.
Tell you what - you show me yours and I'll show you mine
"Yet you seem to feel justified in laying into the present revival in Britain and everyone involved in it."
No I don't Bryan - I say a club scene that claims the tradition has changed but is unable to say what into or why is in a bit of a two-and-eight.
A club scene that passes off poorly performed pop songs that have been largely forgotten by the people as a whole as "folk" has lost its way.
A folk scene that now supports clubs where a traditional song is a matter of humour "Now I joke that I have friends in the room if anyone else turns up and sings a traditional song." is no longer a folk scene
And closer to all this, the fact that any discussion on what constitutes folk song on a forum dedicated traditional songs and music is a no go area and is immediately screamed down with cries of ""folk police" (or "fascist"), "finger-in-ear", "purist"... and a whole string of such epithets.
That abuse appears to now be directed at our source singers, describing them as "out of tune, singing into cheap microphones", "£tit-trousers" (a reference to the way they dress, apparently) and being told that if the likes of Sam Larner were around today their role would be to "sit back and watch how it should be done" (all these put forward during one of these "friendly" discussions).   
To say I condemn all is simply an invention on your part - I condemn what the revival has become.
I could produce a long list of singers and musicians I like and admire - many of them not performing because there is no longer an interest in what they do (sure - they could all go to Lewes (do you not know how sadly condemnatory that suggestion is?).   
We were amused and not a little puzzled at an incident that took place way back when Pat was still arranging bookings for singers like The Stewart and Walter Pardon.
She was given the number of a "folk club" where Walter might get booked
She was asked by the organisers "What does he do?"
Whan she explained, the reply was, "Sorry, we only book folk singers".
How many clubs do you think there are in Britain now that WOULDN'T BOOK SAM OR HARRY?
Don't you - or anybody dare say I lay into everybody on the scene - I certainly don't
I am appalled at the hostile takeover of the revival that we helped build by many people who appear neither to understand nor like folk song - I have never claimed "all" - but certainly enough to have done enormous, possible irreparable damage to a very important music.
You want evidence of this - go to some of these unpleasant discussions - the wold doesn't end when you leave Lewes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 08:39 PM

Would it actually hurt so much to explain what the fuck the "B&B" was? Did they do Stornoway black pudding or gluten-free toast? Did they always change the sheets?

And how does it relate in any way to the original question asked in this thread (which was a pretty reasonable one, and given a lot of very unreasonable answers)?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 02:47 AM

The "revival" which is another word describing those living in the past realising slowly that folk music has never gone away in the first place... is wonderful to hear, great to involve yourself in and considering music is an abstraction, and folk, just like any other genre, puts the human touch to it with words, is doing fine.

Proscription may have been interesting to those who like that sort of thing but it did harm to the general spread of folk as a word to describe a set of types of music. The irony being that the description of folk that some were proscribing did in itself mean "evolving." Quite funny really.

In more recent years, many have taken to using the term "acoustic roots" in order to appeal to those who equate the word "folk" with dinosaurs sitting round a volcano arguing points of order. The response of the evolutionary inept lizards? To scoff at the child they raised. All rather sad really, if you were to take their opinions at face value.

But folk is alive, kicking and appealing to audiences of all ages. The old folk clubs may be far less and many have evolved into singarounds, but the music and its appeal has wandered nicely into other platforms. A revival indeed.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 03:57 AM

"Would it actually hurt so much to explain what the fuck the "B&B" was"
Not really Jack - part of the earlier conversation of which you were apparently not part of - 'The Ballads and Blues Club' - bit cumbersome to type out every time - sorry for not explaining; it was the fore-runner of The Singers Club.
"The "revival" which is another word describing those living in the past "
Still ploughing the furrow Muskie - would your mind slowing down so us "bunch of serious buggers with Asbergers Syndrome" can keep up?
You do realise that arguments like yours are doing a great job of making my point for me - thanks for the help.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM

"Tell you what - you show me yours and I'll show you mine"

This from someone who doesn't go in for Pissing Contests!

While I was booking people for the Ballads & Blues Club I wasn't competing with anyone. I was booking singers and musicians that our members enjoyed seeing. I guess that Ewan and Peggy did the same thing for their members.

Apart from the club the Ballads and Blues Association promoted concerts by such people such as Pete Seeger at St Pancras Town Hall which was just after he was able to travel, The Weavers and Robin Hall and Jimmie MacGregor at The Royal Festival Hall, Jack Elliot and Derroll Adams with Jessie Fuller at Islington Town Hall and Josh White at the Royal Albert Hall. I guess this is what is referred to by Mr Carroll as being commercial. I will admit before being accused that there was not much British content there but that isn't what we were about.

Jack, sorry about adding to the thread drift but it was obvious when seeing the original post that Jim Carroll would take the bait and things would develop the way they have and always do.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 07:02 AM

"Hootenanny" has taken to denouncing others for 'not answering a simple question'. Another bit of blatant tu-quoquedom: SFAICS he has not answered the simple question as to who he is, altho Bryan has come clean as to being L'Escargot.

Who are you, Hoot? You seem to have been involved with B&B which I attended regularly in its early, Princess Louise, avatar. Were/are you anybody I know or knew? Were you connected with other clubs there [Hylda Sims & Russ Quaye; Henry[Hyam] Morris; Nancy Whiskey, et al]?

Answer! Answer!

≈M≈

aka Michael Grosvenor Myer, MA FRSA Official·Legendary·Pedant &c &c

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 16 - 07:43 AM

Jim, I can only speak for myself,Icannot speak for others but I have always performed and championed tradtional songs.