The singers club and proscription

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:55 AM

"Musicians will not be constrained from playing what they want to play -"
Course they won't - but clubs that advertise themselves as 'folkclubs' commit themselves to providing a certain type of music
I repeat - I'd love to be a fly on the wall at a local pop venue if a singer turned up with 'selections from the Joe Heaney Songbook'
It's misleading to talk about constraining anybody - it's about giving what you say you give and respecting the music for its importance
"Now I joke that I have friends in the room if anyone else turns up and sings a traditional song" - how sad, but my point is well made.
"what the living tradition of folk has turned our music into"
What has our tradition of folk turned into exactly and where does the Bonmnzo Dog Doodah Band fit in?
We don't have a 'living tradition' anymore - would that we did.
What goes on in folk clubs is as divorced from the real world as The Atheneum and in no way speaks for people's culture any more, let alone change it - specially when it is possible to take the piss when a folk song is sung.
Folk song has not touched the world outside the clubs and until it does enough to give the wider population a choice of changing long - establishd terms, the old definitions remain
"widest terminology. "
Define that "widest terminology".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:51 AM

I note that the person who was the subject of my comments in my post of 13 Jan 16 - 04:25 PM has returned to this thread with posts on 13 Jan 16 - 08:04 PM and 14 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM. Both of posts are of the combative nature that we have come to expect from him rather than the discursive nature that would help to further the development of the thread. In neither of these subsequent posts does he address the points that I made about the unkind and unworthy comments that he made about one of London's deservedly most popular folk clubs. I would have thought that he should return with at least an explanation, at best an apology, but no, he chooses to ignore my comments and carry on in his usual antagonistic and bellicose manner.
Which figure in public life does this remind me of? I am thinking of our present prime minister who when challenged about some misdeed in parliament on in interview always avoids a direct answer and raises his voice whilst changing the subject to one that reinforces his entrenched positions.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:24 AM

One would not expect to be allowed to play traditional music in a jazz club

Actually, Lonnie Donegan started singing American folk songs by Leadbelly, and similar material, in the interval of jazz sessions with the likes of the Ken Colyer Jazzmen.

If, for a comparison, you look at jazz and its following in the 1950s and, to a certain extent, the 1960s - as I'm sure Hoot, among others here, will remember - there were similar schisms to those described in the folky world. Those believing in the purity of the early New Orleans sounds were dubbed "mouldy figs" by those know by the other, modernist side as "dirty boppers"! All pretty hilarious in retrospect - and those were the days when jazz clubs were far more numerous than they are today. A bit like the folk scene in some ways. Where are the jazz clubs now - mostly long gone, with what music there is being played in pubs and bars.

I played jazz in pubs and the odd club in the late '60s up to the mid '80s - in London and then in Brighton - and remember clearly that the repertoires in those days were actually quite eclectic. Our own band played stuff as diverse as Herbie Hancock's "Watermelon Man" (in Mongo Santamaria style) and "Canal Street Blues" - a real mixture of old and new, with all sorts of things thrown in - even the odd Beatles number. All that mattered was that the tunes were worthy of playing and getting into melodically and harmonically.

Musicians will not be constrained from playing what they want to play - because music is a complex and constantly evolving art. And the club scene is not the be-all and end-all as far as venues are concerned. As far as my own personal tastes are concerned, my preferences are to make music communally in a session or to play for dancing - both exhilarating and tremendous fun.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:21 AM

No idea how those who wish to "proscribe" could execute their directive because most places use the term "folk" in its widest terminology.

I help run a folk club and thirty years ago I bet it was mostly what some in here reckon to be their previous interpretation of folk.

Now I joke that I have friends in the room if anyone else turns up and sings a traditional song. But we like many others up and down the land enjoy what the living tradition of folk has turned our music into.

The healthy number of bums on seats infers lots of people know what their folk is. I doubt though that they'd try to proscribe it to others. I'm sure we leave that to those who think proscribing in an evenings entertainment is a good thing. Nowt as queer as folk.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:33 AM

Thanks, Bryan. Moules indeed delicious -- so are escargots, {but v expensive alas), so long as one likes garlic, which is their predominant flavour when cooked à la Bourguignonne. I was fortunate in that during my late teens & 20s my mother ran a S Ken hotel which belonged to her brother,where I lived & which had in its basement a v fashionable* French restaurant so I had access to moules & snails & such -- so long as I didn't overindulge or Uncle Alec might have had something to say!

≈M≈

*Diana Dors, Theo Bikel, Gilbert Harding, Marquis of Milford Haven among the regulars.

Apols for drift. Not much to do with Singers -- tho I used to sing there!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:08 AM

Surely the question is about WHAT is to be proscribed?

One would not expect to be allowed to play traditional music in a jazz club, or bubble gum pop in a Country and Western club.

The reason for forming a specific type of club is to promote that particular genre and bring it to a larger number of people.

In the beginning of our club the large turnouts was the "new" experience of sharing the old songs the magic of the blend of voices, raising the roof in one song and shedding a little tear in the next.
Gradually the "performers" moved in and people began listening rather than participating....."evolution"/"devolution" took place, the crowds began to drift away as the singer song-writers took over.

Few wanted to listen to their refrains of self pity.

I began to be about getting big names to fill the venue.....the revival had been hijacked and strangled.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:46 AM

Half a century ago, in a specific club which had specific objectives and was operating under specific historical conditions, "proscription" was probably completely reasonable (although, apparently, was considered to be too draconian for some - who have never stopped moaning about it).

The chief "proscriber" is long dead and can't 'get' anyone now. So it is up to the present generation of performers - like the initiator of this thread - to decide whether "proscription" is good or bad. So what do you think, GSS, is "proscription" good or bad?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM

"Jim's description is so bizarrely out of line with everybody else's that I wonder if he's getting his pubs mixed up."
Nope - unless they moved from the one near Euston Square.
Sorry - I find this tiresome - maybe fols are happy with half empty clubs with singes reading from crib sheets and a juke box thumping from downstairs - not the folk scene I enjoyed for so long.
I'll look in later to see if anybody's interested in discssing the topic in hand.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 08:36 PM

Count me in as somebody else who's only had good experiences at the Cellar Upstairs. It's one of the two regular folk events in London I make a point of going to on my rare visits there (the other being the Lord Hood session in Greenwich).

Jim's description is so bizarrely out of line with everybody else's that I wonder if he's getting his pubs mixed up.

I never remember that "certain gentleman" shouting down a Irish speaking woman singer because she took the trouble to explain her songs, or tried to wreck one of anybody's radio programmes by sending fake recordings of field singers, or humiliating someone on stage by pinning "I am a twat on the back of their chair" or persuading a well-meaning elderly lady to post snails to anybody's house by pretending they were needed to feed a pet hedgehog, or lying on television by claiming that album notes claiming certain approach to folk song, were written by them or shouting down audience members at a public discussion on folk song.

All I can work out from that is that you're annoyed and like being annoyed. I haven't the faintest idea what all that bile is about and I have not the least flicker of interest in having it explained. Go away, calm down and shut up about it.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 08:04 PM

"There was no bar in the folk club in the" cellar upstairs"
Didn't say there was Dick, but the night we were there there was an exceptionally loud juke-box thumpng through the floor.Nobody suggested yo sang from a song sheet - why is it, d'you reckon, that whenever I come in contact with you I get visions of flamingos being used as croquet mallets?
"You responded with personal attacks on me calling me belligerent and arrogant."
And you approached what I had put down with contemptuous aggression without having the courtesy to say why
Sorry Hoot, don't recognise the 'certain gentleman' you describe - it wasn;'t the 'certain gentleman' I knew from the late sixties onward - as I said, I hope nobody ever takes me to task for my behaviour a lifetime ago.
I never remember that "certain gentleman" shouting down a Irish speaking woman singer because she took the trouble to explain her songs, or tried to wreck one of anybody's radio programmes by sending fake recordings of field singers, or humiliating someone on stage by pinning "I am a twat on the back of their chair" or persuading a well-meaning elderly lady to post snails to anybody's house by pretending they were needed to feed a pet hedgehog, or lying on television by claiming that album notes claiming certain approach to folk song, were written by them or shouting down audience members at a public discussion on folk song.
The revival in those days was a bit of a snake pit in those days and a hell of a lot of people tried their hands at snake charming - it seems complaints of bad behaviour are still as selective now as they were then.   
The C.U. was as I described it - half empty - a thumping juke box (from the bar) and poor performances.
A cellar downstairs wasn't much better on a previous visit (though with more punters and better beer on that occasion.
Well - there we go - Bryan's name (I used to think it had something to do with 'The Magic Roundabout' before he kindly put me right) - The Cellar upstairs, half-a-century old urban legends, and the usual bout of corpse kicking - anything rather than a discussion of the work and ideas MacColl left behind, "If winter comes, can name-changes and army records be far behind -
What is it with you people - is a rational discussion on folksong really that difficult?"?
G'night all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 05:57 PM

The person who calls himself The Snail on Mudcat does not use this name because takes a gastronomic interest in Gastropoda, but it refers to the statue in Lewes of an ammonite sculpted by Peter Randall-Page commonly called 'The Snail' in the town. I'm sure that Bryan won't mind me mentioning that. AAARGH! Now I've gone and mentioned his name!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 05:49 PM

I thought it was a fairly open secret. My name is Bryan Creer. I am on the committee of Lewes Saturday Folk Club. I play English concertina and fiddle and rarely sing. What else do you need to know?
(I have never eaten snails but their cousins, moule mariniere, are very nice.)

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 05:35 PM

I know who The Snail is but it would be unethical to reveal his true identity, one thing I can say is that I have yet to see him eating snails

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 05:30 PM

I have been wondering the same. 'Hootenanny' writes as if we are all going to know who he is, with his first person recollections of clubs he has visited &c [see 3 posts back]; but I know, no more than TheSnail, his actual identity. [But -- a bit of
tu quoque — don't know who TheSnail is either.]

≈M≈
[Michael Grosvenor Myer]

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 05:28 PM

There was no bar in the folk club in the" cellar upstairs" when i went there, the material was all folk music, ken hall and peta webb sang american folk music ,they were of a high standard, tom paley was a high standard, there were no crib sheets, I did not sing with a crib sheet either, obviously i cannot comment on my own performance other than to say i played traditional songs, in my usual way.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 04:25 PM

Does everybody else know or is it a deep, dark secret? Who is Hootenanny?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 04:25 PM

I have been to the Cellar Upstairs club on quite a number of occasions. I found that it was well run, had a high standard of guests and floor singers in an amazingly quiet environment for its location in a busy part of London and was always well attended to full when I have been there. I found their audiences to be attentive and appreciative.
I know the organiser, Sheila Miller, well and know her to be a hard-working, efficient and knowledgeable folk club organiser. I worked with her for decades in organising tours where guests came to both our clubs as well as others of like minded, traditionally oriented clubs. I have nothing but praise and admiration for the way she single-handedly combines all the responsibilities and combines this with a demanding professional career.
I am very unhappy to see her club dismissed in such a disparaging way by someone who apparently only has a passing knowledge of it. If I were to stumble on a night where things were not perfect at a club on an irregular visit, I would not make assumptions that this was always the case.
As a long-term organiser and knowing that things can sometimes go wrong through no fault of the club management, I certainly would not be posting negative comments about it on a public forum.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 03:37 PM

Jim,
Can you explain in what way the Singers Club was not commercial as opposed the the Ballads and Blues Club? I visited the Singers Club on three occasions and had to pay to enter.

Your comment about noise from a bar at the Cellar upstairs (which as far as I know usually operates in a function room and not in the bar) reminds me of one occasion when I visited the Singer's Club. A certain gentleman who was a regular supporter there was somewhat "tired and emotional" and in the middle of a song by Derrol Adams very loudly commented "he's still singing the same _ _ _ ing songs". The same man that I had had to eject from the B&B a number of years earlier for similar disruption. I won't mention his name as I know that you don't like folks dancing on graves.
I don't recall a bar in the basement at St John Street so I guess he oiled up before entering the club as he used to at the Nellie Dean Street.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 03:22 PM

Jim, I called a statement you made nonsense on the straightforward grounds that it was. You responded with personal attacks on me calling me belligerent and arrogant. I was going to bite my tongue and try to continue a reasonable debate until I read your latest reply to GSS. For belligerence and arrogance, it takes some beating.
Do as you would be done by and something might be achieved but if you insist on alienating everyone you come in contact with, we are going nowhere.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 02:56 PM

"the last club I visited in London was the cellar upstairs not long ago, IT WAS EXCELLENT"
One of the last clubs we visited in London wa The Callar Upstairs - it wasn't, what with its crib sheets and noise from the bar - and it was half empty (or half full, if you prefer)
Then again À chacun son goût
"Easy"
You mean simple - minder, that is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 02:25 PM

the last club I visited in London was the cellar upstairs not long ago, IT WAS EXCELLENT, floor singers included tom paley[ who was a regular at the singers club], guests were ken hall and peta webb.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 02:14 PM

"Who call themselves folk"

Therefore folk.

Easy

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 01:50 PM

I hope he wasn't a passable singer BECAUSE he bought you all drinks! I've got a very loud voice and can sing in tune but there's something wrong that I can't put my finger on, and my wife says I pull a funny face when I'm singing - sort of pained, she reckons. I'll have another bash at it when she goes out. I suppose Danny Boy would be out of the question...

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 01:01 PM

"At least you can sing, unlike me!"
MacColl always argued that, unless there was something physically wrong (quite rare), anybody could sing if they were prepared to put the work in.
Whose being a defeatist now?
There were two brothers came regularly to the Singers, one could sing, the other, both claimed, was "tone deaf"
The latter joined the Singers Workshop - for the crack.
We worked on him for about three months and he reciprocated by listening to advice.
He became a passable singer - bought us all drinks and his brother presented us with a song book for our archive - still have it somewhere.
A definite high point in an otherwise unremarkable career
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 12:52 PM

Ach, too defeatist, Jim. At least you can sing, unlike me!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 12:38 PM

I don't recall the "randomly" before.
Not my problem Bryan - that's the way it was - my main club was the Singers and I spent two or three nights per week visiting other clubs.
"Anyway, it's nonsense."
And we were doing so well - no it wasn't any such thing - try not to be so belligerent and we might have a discussion.
MacColl flt that the B and B was moving to commercialism and he did what he said he was going to do - set up a new non-commercial tradition based club -what part of that do you have trouble with?
I came to live music while I was an apprentice - Country and Western - listening to the likes of Jimmy Rodgers (the singing brakeman - not the other one), Hank Williams et al, and attending a C&W club in Liverpool town centre
Along came the Music industry, milked the C & W scene, orchestrated all the songs, used it for a while and spat it out.
I started to go to The Cavern to hear what was then the best of jazz - Colyer, Lyttleton, Barber, Lightfoot... with occasional visits from Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee and Donegan
Along comes the Industry again, markets jazz and boom all gone, no more tomorrow.   
Ewan (certainly not alone) and others saw the same thing happening with folk (and was proved very right, given the Folk Boom) and decided to make a stand.
The Singers was presenting good well performed folk songs without compromise until nearly a year after Ewan died - I became one of the long-term beneficiaries of that policy.   
As far as I'm concerned it says "folk" on the tin - I think I know what the word means, no-one has yet given me any reason to doubt what I believe
"There are plenty of clubs where you will here just the sort of music you want,"
There may well but in my experience there are far more who call themselves "folk" who don't.
"Do your research"
Bang - there goes that arrogance again - do you think I haven't - one of the advantages of the net is you don't have to to leave home to check the quality of what's out there - fairly depressing.
On our last three visits to London we have been fairly appalled at what we found - little folk badly performed read from crib-sheets (never saw a mobile phone prompt used before) - as for the new slimline folk scene that used to boast up to fifty clubs a week.
"I'd like to respond to like your latest quote from MacColl but I really haven't got time."
That's a shame!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 11:38 AM

Jim Carroll
I said I said I stopped randomly visiting clubs when my choice of what would find there was removed from me.

I don't recall the "randomly" before. That's a bit like expecting to randomly visit a restaurant and always get steak and chips. Anyway, it's nonsense. As MacColl's quote shows, this was true before 1961, is true now and has certainly been true all the time in between. One of your favourite lines is "Does what it says on the tin." You have to read beyond "Soup" and check the list of ingredients, check the e-numbers and consider the reputation of the manufacturer. This has always been true.

"Give it a try, you might even enjoy"
I might well - but isn't it a sad state of affairs that I woulfd have to?

You don't have to. There are plenty of clubs where you will here just the sort of music you want, some of which have been going since the sixties and before. Do your research but not just for examples that fit what you want to believe.

There is so much more I'd like to respond to like your latest quote from MacColl but I really haven't got time.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 10:50 AM

"Try the harmonica, Jim. It's never too late! ;-)"
Been there - done that - didn't even make a fist of that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 10:15 AM

I didn't mean repetitious in that sense, Jim. Phrases within tunes are repeated, A and B music are repeated and whole tunes are repeated, but for good players they're just the hooks to hang the music on. The use of ornamentation and variation to good effect are part of that "different path" to playing well that I referred to. You won't hear Kevin Burke just repeating tunes verbatim but you might hear beginners doing that, different ends of that path. And I wasn't disagreeing with the quote, just musing.

Try the harmonica, Jim. It's never too late! ;-)

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 10:06 AM

Simple, in the song sense, means instinctive and without thought, "free and birdsong" as the early collectors put it.
He elaborated on it in other arguments later.
Don't know what "simple" Irish music you mean - I gave up on the flute and the concertina after years of trying - far from simple.
A good musician if far from repetitious, we spent time recording musicians like Kevin Burke (fiddle), P.J. Crotty (flute), Fergus McTeggart (fiddle), Tom McCarthy (pipes, concertina, whistle and sometimes fiddle) and others talking about how not to make the music repetitious (ie boring).
Quite an education   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 10:04 AM

"The best of folk music in the world, wherever it comes from, whether it's a Joe Heaney or whether it's that young man singing those Azerbaijani songs, is full of the most extraordinary expertise, full of the most extraordinary physical ideas, vocal ideas I mean, I mean physical in the vocal sense"
I agree with all that, I believe practice is important. Ewan and Peggys idea of vocal warm ups are in my opinion good, good conrol of the voice cannot be achieved without practice,the voice in effect is a musical instrument.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 09:10 AM

Well, I can't speak for singing, but there's no doubt that traditional Irish music of the instrumental variety is "simple" in a number of respects. Overwhelmingly, it consists of short, regular phrases and is mostly diatonic. Playing it involves much repetition. As much of it was made up on instruments, it mostly sits very easily on those instruments, so that virtuosity is never required. Untutored payers can play the music very well (as can tutored players, of course). I understand from fiddle players that they rarely, if ever, have to go beyond first position. "Simple" may mean easy to play, therefore an inclusive kind of music. I'd take that as a positive, not an insult. But "simple" doesn't mean the same thing as easy to play well. Getting to play well may mean following a different developmental path for traditional musicians than for classically-trained musicians, but that should not imply a less musicianly path. So, while I agree with the sentiment of what MacColl says, I think I detect just a hint of defensiveness. But then I'm no singer. ;-)

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 08:51 AM

Between August, 1978 and March 1979, Pat and I carried out a series of interviews with Ewan, getting him to talk about his approach to singing rather than his life, which was already well covered.
In an effort to get away from subjects here that have already been answered ad nauseum, perhaps it's worth putting some of the discussion that took place here - one can but try!!
The transcripts were used in a talk Pat and I gave at the first 'Ewan MacColl weekend' in Salford.
Jim Carroll

Ewan was very much opposed to the popular idea that the act of traditional singing was a "natural" one and that the singer really did not have to think about what he or she was doing.

1.   I believe that this notion comes from, it really begins in the Romantic Movement.   It begins with that notion of the rude, unlettered hind with a heart of gold and all the rest of it, you know. Basically today I see it as a very reactionary and very bourgeois point of view. I think it stems from a belief that the working class are incapable of doing anything which demands a high level of expertise and a high level of skill, particularly in the creative field.   
And how is it possible then that this body of music that we call folk song and folk music, traditional song, traditional music, whatever you like to call it, how is it possible that this, which has been made by labourers, seamen and all the rest of it, should have, should demand this level of expertise, should demand this high level of craftsmanship on the part of its performers.   "No", they say, "the songs are simple", and all the rest of it.   And that is nonsense, that is utter nonsense.   
To some extent it's the same idea that the nineteenth century English folk song collectors had about the music itself.   "It's embryonic music", they said, and when they didn't actually describe it as embryonic, that is what they meant when they talked about it being simple, "the simple music of unlettered people".   But unlettered there is used as a pejorative term, as though the ability to read and write is all important. The implication being that if you can read and write, then you are going to be a better singer than if you can't read or write, and we know that's nonsense.
It's this snob thing and it's the snob thing which makes them say "you don't need to work at it, you don't need a high level of craftsmanship to perform this.   
The best of folk music in the world, wherever it comes from, whether it's a Joe Heaney or whether it's that young man singing those Azerbaijani songs, is full of the most extraordinary expertise, full of the most extraordinary physical ideas, vocal ideas I mean, I mean physical in the vocal sense.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 03:34 AM

Thanks,Mike.
I am trying to find out what the true facts are,as you know I was not there.
I think accuracy is important we all know there is a lot of mythology on this subject.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jan 16 - 12:40 AM

Re Dick 0338pm (et al) -- For sake of accurate fact, so far as I can recall the details of the incident:-

Ewan's affected denunciation of Isla [who was occasionally among the main host-group at the front] for singing an American song (it was 'Red Apple Juice', iirc) took place at Malcolm Nixon's Ballads·&·Blues club when it was at the Princess Louise, c 1957; predecessor of the Singers Club, which I never attended, having by then married & dropped out of the club scene prior to leaving London in 1963. Hope that brings the incident into time-context.

It seemed nevertheless relevant to me to cite as an example of 'proscription' in a club run by some of same personnel as would later constitute the Singers.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 08:26 PM

Oh God, you're right. Gotta start ignoring those booze guidelines again...

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 07:48 PM

Don't.

He might.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 07:35 PM

"I have always thought Mr Bowie nothing more than a second rate popsinger"

What a mindlessly stupid thing to say. If you didn't care for him, that's great. That would be the way to say it. Otherwise, find something else to talk about.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 07:20 PM

As ever, your view of musical talent is about as worthy as your view on whole sections of society.

Sick puppy.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 06:07 PM

"Shimrod, if you do not like it you do not have to particpate, the thread is about the singers club and proscription IT is not about MacColl."

Of course it is - and you know it!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 05:19 PM

EEsee.....Bit he nivir shawed neeps in 'e freezin' cauld...
       mibee he wis " 'e quine 'it did 'e strip it Inverooorie" :0o

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 03:59 PM

I have always thought Mr Bowie nothing more than a second rate popsinger a member of the celebrity culture, there are bucketful's of them.....perhaps he would have been more at home in a theatrical setting.
Mr Wainwright is nowhere near his father in talent or song writing ability....his sexual preferences are not of any interest to me.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 03:38 PM

Shimrod, if you do not like it you do not have to particpate, the thread is about the singers club and proscription IT is not about MacColl.
MGM Lion, mentioned Isla Cameron, I quote
Up to a point: I don't think that either the pro- or the pre-scription was rigorously or unreasonably enforced. Tho, as I have related before, I recall Ewan threatening Isla Cameron with 50 lashes next time she sang an American song.)
was that at the singers club or elsewhere?was Isla a resident at Singers club or doing a floor spot there?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 02:32 PM

Even when trying to be obnoxious, he wouldn't know a fact from a fart.

Ignore him. He tried to denigrate Bowie. Why? Probably his neutral sexuality persona. The worm used to tell everybody how much he liked Rufus Wainwright till he found out he was gay.

What the flying it has to do with the thread is beyond me. Luckily.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 02:06 PM

"Ziggy Stardust nivir visited Eberdeenshire"... Aye he did Ake! See:-

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/local/memories-of-late-legend-before-he-was-starman/

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 01:14 PM

Little Sir Echo how do you do?

Sorry about that...

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 12:58 PM

"There was an expectation that the residents stuck to singing songs from their own countries in their own accents because we were opening up and exploring our own national repertoires"
OK, Are you stating that it only applied to residents, not to floor singers, all you have to do is say yes or no.
I did not go there so I am trying to find out exactly what happened.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 12:47 PM

I can't help wondering why we're raking this old topic up AGAIN! Talk about 'flogging-a-dead-horse'. Ewan's been dead for over 26 years. In my opinion he did a bloody good job. Let him rest in peace!

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 12:27 PM

Just been studying some nineteenth century bothy ballads from Aberdeenshire, most of the farm buildings are still there....huge culture summed up in these "comical" songs ...all life is there if you have the inclination to look.
These men had pride...in their work, their "place", even the tightness of the auld fermer boss.

When you look even closer you see that faqrmer an' worker were not really battling each other, but were involved with a titanic struggle to tame the land and raise their families.....all contained in a "spleighter o' comical blethers."

Folk music has always been about real people and real life (Ziggy Stardust nivir visited Eberdeenshire) :0)

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 16 - 12:12 PM

"evolving" into third rate pop music.....I'll just say it once!