The singers club and proscription

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 08:38 AM

Jim Carroll
And above all, the refusal to respond to what I have actually said (an occasional promise that they will "when they have time", but so far, nothing but somewhat defensive nastiness).
The dishonesty of these arguments always astounds me and leaves me with a desire to open all the windows and let some fresh air in.
What have these people got against folk music if they have to go to such lengths to avoid straightforward discussion?

You are a piece of work aren't you Jim. Enough.

At least you've got Akenaton on your side. That must make you happy.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 09:19 AM

"Enough." I understand; having distorted what I say, you are now doing a runner.
A "piece of work" is the one who claims "You have a certain amount of status and can do (and are doing) far more damage than they ever could." - then does a disappearing act
Substantiate your claim or stand with your friend, Good Soldier Schweik as a Porky vendor.
Who the hell do you think you are with you bloody aggression?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 03:53 PM

"Who the hell do you think you are wth your bloody aggression2",
There speaks a pacific, calm voice, Mr Tranquillity himself, a man rarely roused to name calling.
I know you used to be an electrician but it sounds like you are all sparked up with crossed wires.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 03:59 PM

Jim, in any electrical circuit appliances and wiring will burn out to protect fuses.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST, 34
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 04:11 PM

OK, I'm bored now with people sniping at each other.

I do have a question about the idea of proscription, however. I have heard it described as wanting people to play music from their tradition, and also as wanting people to play music from their locale. Was the idea that an Englishman should sing songs from England, or that songs from Sussex should only be sung by people from Sussex? There's quite a difference, especially given the huge numbers of people from various parts of the country who moved to cities to find work.

And what about me, an American? Would this proscription say that I shouldn't do songs from my tradition, which is very definitely British? Most of the laws, customs, and social traditions in America are directly from Britain. That is our dominant culture, or at least it has been through most of our history. It is, in a very real way, our tradition. I feel much more socially connected to English music than I do to Cajun or Country/Western or most of the other indigenous American folk music. I started out playing the blues, and have continued to do so privately, but have never felt the desire to perform it. Appalachian music is pretty good for me, but it is a direct descendant of British music, and I really feel more at home playing music from England, and somewhat from Scotland.

Comments? Ideas?

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 05:56 PM

As i understand it if you were american it was ok to sing american songs at the singers club, for example it was ok for peggy seeger and tom paley to sing songs from the appalachian mountains even though they were from the east coast, of course they were and are very good performers. Ewan sang songs from Scotland he was born in salford but his mother was scottish and he had heard her singing the scottish songs at home, I do not think he sang many lancashire or manchester traditional songs, I dont think he sang lancashire dialect songs either. Harry Boardman used to sing lancashire songs and used to sing an intersting song called cob coaling

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 16 - 07:15 PM

" I have heard it described as wanting people to play music from their tradition,"
Basically it was Britons performing British material at first, though the suggestion that they used their own accents rather than say 'oirish' or 'Mummerset'
The policy was to concentrate on the British repertoire that had been made available through The BBC 1950-54 collecting project.
On one of my first visits to Ewan and Peggy's home to copy their tapes they gave me access to half a dozen tapes from the Beeb collection and suggested that if I wanted to expand my small repertoire there was plenty there to choose from.
Peggy also had about ten folders in the filing cabinet, of songs in alphabetical order she had typed out for their own research - they were for the benefit of anybody who came to the house to work.
she had made multiple copies of each and the last of each was marked 'final copy' so she could replace it as they ran out.   
We still have typed Xeroxed copies of about a dozen songs I took away around 1968.
As I've said, when Lomax first came to Britain Ewan and Bert and virtually everybody else on the scene was singing American songs, largely recorded by The Library of Congress - Lomax tore a strip off them for "neglecting their own tradition".
Both Ewan and Bert took his point and ,as far as I'm concerned, the policy worked and loads of people started singing British material - a great help in this was the ten-series Caedmon series of albums, 'Folk Songs of Britain' (Lomax was instrumental in getting this produced); it was later released on the British label, Topic.
On Ewan's 70th birthday he was given a symposium in London - Pat and I were there when Alan and Ewan sat in front of an audience and discussed the beginning of the revival - this was one of the points covered.
There was no objection to taking say Irish, Scots or American song of British origin and singing them in your own accent - I have a couple of dozen Scots songs in my repertoire, lots of Irish and a couple of American ones - I've had to work on them to fit my Scouse-ish accent - just added 4 Scots onesa and one America one (Hedy West's 'Fair Rosamund', which I almost osmosised from hearing Peggy sing it so often).
Eventually it was not so much about national origin as accent - once we started work in the Critics Group analysing and relating to the songs we found that they just didn't work in an accent that wasn't your own.
Ewan and Peggy actually did a Folkways album entitled 'Two-Way-Trip', swapping British and America versions of songs - in my opinion, it was their least successful album - neither managed to pull the accents of for the choruses - they never did it again, to my knowledge.
Said this before but, much of the animosity Ewan felt towards Dylan was based on a fear that, having pushed British songs to the fore, Ewan worried that the situation would revert back to as it was pre-Lomax.
When I first got involved at the beginning of the sixties, the scene was swimming with Joanie clones and Dylan doublers - I found clubs like The Wayfarers in Manchester and the occasional trips to the Singers a bit of an oasis.
Sorry about the arguments - it won't happen again if I can help it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Jan 16 - 03:54 AM

I get it. you have to be over a certain age to even care.

Meanwhile as some have pointed out, folk clubs are stuffed with younger people now for whom MacColl is a historical figure. Last night at a local club four of the singers weren't even born when he died. When a sixteen year old sings a MacColl song and calls it a Stereophonics song because she got it from her Dad's album, who am I to say otherwise? It is a Stereophonics song, (ditto Roberta Flack, Elvis, Sinatra, Rod Stewart..)

It's that oral tradition that some on here rattle on about but rally against when they experience it.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 16 - 04:23 AM

"I get it. you have to be over a certain age to even care. "
More dishonesty - but there again, you're not into apology or withdrawal either
Same offer of £1000 toyour favourite charity of you come up with an occasion that I ever said tat Muskie - desperation seems to have set in.
It is you who have dismissed us "tit-trouser" as irrelevant
Give us a break (or post when you've woken up properly)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Jan 16 - 09:27 AM

"I have heard it described as wanting people to play music from their tradition, ..."

Phew! For a moment there I thought we were going to get into (yet another) endless, sterile, nit-picking debate about what constitutes one's own tradition. Luckily Jim came to the rescue with his statement that:

"Basically it was Britons performing British material at first, though the suggestion that they used their own accents rather than say 'oirish' or 'Mummerset'"

That's probably all you need to know.

Although to keep this in perspective, it's also worth recalling that the 'proscription policy' applied to a particular club, at a particular time (50 years ago!) - a club which had specific objectives and formulated a policy which helped it to meet those objectives.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jan 16 - 10:26 AM

Although to keep this in perspective, it's also worth recalling that the 'proscription policy' applied to a particular club, at a particular time (50 years ago!) - a club which had specific objectives and formulated a policy which helped it to meet those objectives.
True, but many other singers went and found an indigenous repertoire, without ever going near the singers club. They spent time visiting Cecil Sharp House where they looked and found songs from their own back ground, and went out to folk clubs and sang those songs.
Cyril Tawney was one of the older singers who encouraged younger singers to seek and look for certain material.

Subject: RE: The singers club and proscription
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jan 16 - 02:10 PM

Roy Harris, who went professional in 1965, after having a very successful Sidmouth Festival, also encouraged singers to research songs, and organised NTMC In Nottingham.
Roy was a skilled performer who had a real ability to get audiences joining in chorus songs.
NTMC had a more rigid policy [as I understand]than the Singers club and like the singers club was successful for a considerable number of years.