BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:07 PM

Your obsessiveness is making me concerned for your mental health.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:46 PM

Well I will certainly keep on at you, old chap, because I've seen right through your nonsense and your dishonest bleating about anonymity, and I know I'm not the only one. Yours sincerely, Steve Shaw, posting under my real name, uniquely, utterly traceable, registered and logged in, for now and forever. Just as controversial as you, if not more so, and totally fearless as to revealing my identity to the whole world. So who are you? Shall I guess? You're a .....NOBODY! Weeeee!

Oh, by the way, mods, have I ever men...oh, never mind!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:16 PM

χριστός, there's no end to it, is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 06:57 PM

Not whining. Commenting. This is not my gig nor is it real life. How many times do I have to tell you? And I wish I could match YOUR constant false whining about how you have to stay anonymous, you poor wee thing, so that "we can focus on the post, not the poster." As if your posts contain anything worth reading, troll. You're sussed, mate. You're a fraud, and everyone except a few of your right-wing mates here knows it. As a matter of fact, even they hardly leap to your defence ever, do they? Ever heard Keith, Teribus or akenaton jumping to your defence? Do you know why not? You're a bloody embarrassment to their cause, that's why! They would NEVER do it your way, in spite of their own multifarious deficiencies! Get a life, old bean! :-)

Unique monikers for all! No posting unless registered and logged in!

(Oops, sorry, mods. I think I may have mentioned that before...)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 06:24 PM

Trolling????

The only trolling I see is the constant whining about the rules. Give it a rest for χριστός sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:05 PM

Serious trolling going on here, Greg and Jim. He's annoyed because we've sussed him as a brainless coward, bigot and charlatan. So, we're going to get this shite for a while. Unless the mods adopt this really original idea I've just thought up. Unique monikers for all! No posting unless registered and logged in!

Oops, have I mentioned this before...?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 04:55 PM

Surely you mean those who were put in harm's way by the Hamas terrorists

No, I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 04:35 PM

Are those the Palestinian children who were injured and maimed in the last Israeli bombardment?

Surely you mean those who were put in harm's way by the Hamas terrorists who attacked their neighbours with rockets then hid behind the women and children knowing full well that some would be killed or injured for use as propaganda tools.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 03:29 PM

"When will you produce some?"
You've gad many - Sabra Shatila, Six Days War, 2015 Gaza - you've denied them all, as you are about to now.

The question was when will you produce some EVIDENCE!!
All you have put up is unsubstantiated claims and accusations.

I do not deny those accusations. Israel does.
I just put their side of the story and you have been unable to challenge a word of it.

"You accuse Israel of massacres and atrocities but can produce no evidence for it."
There you go again 'no massacres'

NO! NOT "NO MASSACRES!" JUST NO EVIDENCE OF ANY SINCE 1948!!!!

Not one of all those links is about massacres by Israel.
Are you admitting defeat on finding any evidence for any massacre since 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 03:04 PM

"Not in 1948, just in the last half century or so."
Benny Morris???
This is reminiscent of your "only three points" claim.
In respect of twenty seven massacres - by whom exactly?
"I have not."
Show one occasion where you ever admitted to a massacre other than say "what massacres?" or "no massacres"
"When will you produce some?"
You've gad many - Sabra Shatila, Six Days War, 2015 Gaza - you've denied them all, as you are about to now.
"You accuse Israel of massacres and atrocities but can produce no evidence for it."
There you go again 'no massacres'
Right - that's me done
You are free to continue to make a fool of yourself by continual lying - you really don't need my help - it seems the one thing you are good at.
"This is Israel:"
THIS IS ISRAEL
AND THIS
PARTICULARLY NASTY
AND THIS
WHAT ABOUT THIS?
Plenty more where they came from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 02:59 PM

Palestinian officer attacks Israeli soldiers with weapon

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 02:47 PM

and 30% of the patients who are children are Palestinians.?

Are those the Palestinian children who were injured and maimed in the last Israeli bombardment?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM

Damascus, January 31 – At least 45 people were killed and dozens more injured in a suburb of the Syrian capital today, in a triple bombing that was not perpetrated by Israel, and will therefore soon disappear from the international consciousness.

A car bomb exploded in Sayeda Zeinab, and then two suicide bombers detonated themselves as rescue work was occurring, according to witnesses cited by Reuters. The location, which boasts the oldest Shiite shrine in Syria, and the carnage, which so far includes 110 wounded, will soon drop out of the news cycle because no international bodies will call for an investigative commission into allegations of war crimes, as the bombing was not conducted by Israel.

Human rights groups such as Amnesty International quickly condemned the bombing, apparently by the Islamic State, as a violation of the Laws of Armed Conflict and of international humanitarian law, then lost interest as other events such as the existence of Israel grabbed their attention. After a flurry of head-shaking and stern words, the organizations determined that no more could be said or done on the matter, since it was not the Jewish State that had committed the atrocity, and that no further formal steps were necessary.


PreOccupied Territory: The Farce Awakens

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 02:21 PM

This is Israel:

"According to Palestinian Media Watch, the Palestinian daily Al Hayat Al Jadida reported, "PA Minister of Health, Hani Abdeen visited the Israeli Hadassah Hospital. This is the first visit by a Palestinian minister to one of the most important Israeli hospitals, according to the hospital's announcement. Minister Abdeen who was accompanied by a delegation that included senior officials of the ministry and of the PA, met with the Director of Ein Karem Hadassah Hospital, Yuval Weiss. He [the minister] visited Palestinian patients being treated in the hospital, and he distributed gifts."

Al Hayat Al Jadida continued, "Hospital director Weiss said: 'We relate to patients without regard to nationality and religion. We treat Muslims, Christians, Jews, and other nationalities without bias, and 30% of the patients who are children are Palestinians.' He went on to say: 'We've begun cooperating with the Palestinians. We now train teams of physicians from the hospital in Beit Jala in the southern West Bank, to treat cancer among children. We have about 60 Palestinian medical interns and specialist physicians who will be returning to the Palestinian Authority areas to carry out their work."

Note 35% of all doctors in Israel are Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:33 PM

No Michael, it doesn't, but I'm not claiming to be certain. The evidence is good though, innit?


Cue demurral from Teribus... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:24 PM

And you have always denied the Israelis carried them out

I have not.
Not in 1948, just in the last half century or so.

you even went as far as to claim that Benny Morris's claims of 27 Israeli massacres were "disputed",

Everything he has ever said is disputed Jim.

I have never at any time pretended that massacres did not take place on both sides - you, on the other hand, have always done so,

I have not.

Proper little massacre denier, aren't you?

No. I just expect evidence.
When will you produce some?

Put up or go away

I will willingly "put up" but what Jim?
You accuse Israel of massacres and atrocities but can produce no evidence for it.
I "put up" Israel's side of the story, and you have not been able to challenge anything.

You should "put up" or stop making accusations you can not substantiate.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:14 PM

"And you can't prove me wrong, can you! "

.,,.

Nope. And that doesn't prove that you're right, does it?

☺

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:59 PM

"Jim, we have discussed the massacres by both sides in 1948 many times."
And you have always denied the Israelis carried them out
This current argument was instated by your continuing those claims - you even went as far as to claim that Benny Morris's claims of 27 Israeli massacres were "disputed", and you have since tried to set up a smokescreen around this by quoting Moris wildly, even though you have claimed him to having been "disputed.
Admit you were telling porkies or leave this alone - your reputation for honesty is already in shreds.
"Jim, you never make any reference to Jews being massacred at that time"
I have never at any time pretended that massacres did not take place on both sides - you, on the other hand, have always done so, and you have denied every single one since the very beginning.
I'm not going to enter into a my massacre was bigger than your massacre argument - a massacre is a massacre.
You have to put right your claims about the Six Day War atrocities, or The Sabra Shatila Massacre, and you have now fallen back on the slaughter of "hostages" in defence of the current massacres   
Proper little massacre denier, aren't you?
You now seem to have moved on from ethnic cleansig denial to a face-saving exercie - you really wouldn't have to if you took lessons in truth telling.
Your nose must be longer than those of Pinnochio and Tony Blair combined
Put up or go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:57 PM

Greg is among the first to start screaming Islamophobia

Examples, Bearded Fred?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:50 PM

Jews were expelled from Arab Lands, too

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:42 PM

Hmm. I'd have thought that latent mutual loathing would be regarded as a damn good reason for HAVING an EU. All that common economic and political interest is a sure-fire way of ensuring that hostilities would never again break out, no? It appears to have worked for the last seventy years, not a bad stretch looking at the history. It means that neither my son nor I have ever had to take up arms and for that alone I'm grateful for the EU. And you can't prove me wrong, can you!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:38 PM

I would never deny that both sides committed atrocities in 1948, when 1 in every hundred Jews were killed, an extraordinary catastrophe for them.
(British losses in WW1 were proportionate, but spread over four years of war not just weeks.)

I do not accept that there is unequivocal evidence for any massacres by Israel in recent decades.

You certainly have not produced any Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:24 PM

Jim, we have discussed the massacres by both sides in 1948 many times.
Here I list some massacres of Jews in 1948 in reply to you relating massacres by Jews.
Both sides were guilty of massacres and atrocities. Morris says that the Jews were surprisingly restrained.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:19 AM

"Sixty-two Jews were murdered by Arabs in the first week after the UN partition plan was passed, and by May 15, 1948, a total of 1,256 Jews had been killed, most of them civilians. These deaths were caused by Arab militias, gangs, terrorists and army units which attacked every place of Jewish inhabitation in Palestine.
       The attacks succeeded in placing Jerusalem under siege and eventually cutting off its water supply. All Jewish villages in the Negev were attacked, and Jews had to go about the country in convoys. In every major city where Jews and Arabs lived in mixed neighborhoods the Jewish areas came under attack. This was true in Haifa's Hadar Hacarmel as well as Jerusalem's Old City.
       Massacres were not uncommon. THIRTY-NINE Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa's oil refinery on December 30, 1947. On January 16, 1948, 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion. On February 22, 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem's Rehov Ben-Yehuda. And on February 29, 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry. Thirty-five Jews were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre on April 13. And 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion on May 15, 1948, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc."Frantzman, Seth. Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine?. Jerusalem Post. Aug 16, 2007.

Jim, you never make any reference to Jews being massacred at that time.
You must see how that looks.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:16 PM

Yup. And Bearded Fred, et. al., claim that they are thus antisemitic.

Yup. And just let anyone make mention of real abuses taking place in countries like Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Gaza, the West Bank, Turkey etc. or, heaven forbid start a thread about it, and Greg is among the first to start screaming Islamophobia, let alone have the thread turn into another Israel bash, often by the second post. He does wear his hypocrisy well, doesn't he.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:26 AM

Yes Greg, and there are those who refer to pro Israel supporters as antisemetic .

For example?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:20 AM

"
Yes Greg, and there are those who refer to pro Israel supporters as antisemetic "
And many, many more who refer to opponents of the Israel regime in the same way - sauce for the Goose, and all that.
Nice to have hit where it hurts.
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:17 AM

"the mutual loathing of the French & Germans is their even greater shared hatred of us"
Without cause, of course!
Who can forget the hatred, distrust and patronising of all foreigners that our generation had drummed into us from childhood upwards - we even sang hymns about being foreign is "being in "error's chain".
Who needs reminding of the Bulldog Drummond and Sax Rohmer depiction of 'Johnny Foreigner', or Punch's ape-like depictions of the Irish - as for Biggles and the wonderful Blackhawks in their SS like uniforms, fighting the great fight and zapping the black savages.
Hate us - they were amateurs!!
Superstars like Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson and Chubby Brown have kept the flag flying ever since
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM

Yes Greg, and there are those who refer to pro Israel supporters as antisemetic .

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:50 AM

Predicated, Steve, on the inevitable result of the dishonesty of assuring us all at the time of the 1974 Referendum that an economic agreement, with no political overtones, was all that was being addressed: which Heath and his fellow shitheaps knew right well was never going to be the case. Since when Europe has imposed on us a series of requirements to our national and demographic disadvantage and bane. I expect you will try to invoke the dreaded R word; till recalling that the threats to our wellbeing come exclusively from fellow-Caucasian would-be self-betterers whose motivations are purely economic and not political. There is no threat to their liberties, only to their living standards which is buggerall biznis of yours & mine. Suppose I had better say my piece yet again about how the only thing which really moderates the mutual loathing of the French & Germans is their even greater shared hatred of us, for having beaten one of them in 1945, while the other had so lamentably failed us, and then gome a-cockcrowing on stinking ungrateful cochon de Gaulle's fetid dunghill, as if they had done it all by their bloody stinking selves, oh ainsi brillant qu'ils étaient.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:38 AM

There are many people in Israel who are critical of the government, there are many Jews outside Israel who are also very disturbed by the state of affairs in Israel .

Yup. And Bearded Fred, et. al., claim that they are thus antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:34 AM

I disagree with you on one point Steve, The losing Israel mindset comes from a much deeper place than politics. Although I do agree that politicians often cater to this fear. But the fear is real and defies political manipulation in a way because it is often at the root of Israels reactions to things going on around them. Again, not an excuse, just an observation. I do not know if many people outside Israel understand this but perhaps it might be useful to look at why this fear exists by looking at recent Jewish history.. the 20th century for example. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM

Evocation might have been a better word. Or even something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:20 AM

Fear of losing Israel is part of the "tiny country surrounded by huge hostile enemies" mindset that successive Israeli regimes nurture in order to keep their people onside. It's not just an Israel thing by a long chalk. The enemy without was very well delineated in Orwell's 1984. More recently we've had invocations of evil empires, the axis of evil and so on. The Cold War fed on it for decades, even though "Russia" was never really a threat to the US or Western Europe at all. All illusory but very convenient. Yes there's a lot of rhetoric from the more idiotic Islamic factions about wiping Israel off the map, etc., but rhetoric is all it's ever been. No-one has ever come close, nor should they even think about it (hope I'm not losing friends...)

And thank you mods for shutting down a thread just before I'd spent 20 minutes on a post to it. Grr! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM

One of the big fears that many Jews have , both inside and outside of Israel, is the fear of losing Israel itself. I have heard that fear expressed but when trying to work out how to " save Israel" there is so much deep emotion that it is hard to get round to solutions. This is not an excuse by the way, simply an observation of one of the many factors involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:42 AM

A bit of light reading

Andrew Thorpe Apps

Andrew Thorpe Apps

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM

"My personal belief is that Palestinians have been shafted both by Israel and by their own leadership."

I also think that the ordinary citizens of Israel are bring shafted by their own leaders (not to speak of their regime's puppets in America), whose policies are condemning them to a life of fear, insecurity and a constant state of war or near-war.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:03 AM

"Sorry Jim, can't accept that report. It's by that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International."
Shit - must ask the Israelis did they did it - that'll confirm it one way or the other
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:02 AM

that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International.

In April 2015, Amnesty International voted down a motion to oppose anti-Semitism in Great Britain. http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/134529/amnesty-rejects-call-campaign-against-antisemitism

Representatives of the group claimed that Amnesty International had simply declined to pass a motion with a single focus; however, it was quickly discovered that the group had devoted an extensive report to anti-Muslim prejudice in Britain.https://www.aivl.be/sites/default/files/bijlagen/Rapportchoiceandprejudice.pdf

MORE

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:42 AM

Quite right Steve, I did not live there. As a Palestinian . I also never claimed that Israel is blameless in that sorry mess that is the Middle East. When living there one IS aware of the split personality of the place...the deeply held belief that The Jewish people feel the need for a " homeland" and the equally obvious fact that Palestinians need a "homeland" as well. most of the people I knew whilst living there recognized both those needs but obviously could not agree as to how that should happen.
My personal belief is that Palestinians have been shafted both by Israel and by their own leadership.
On a slightly lighter.note, I have lived in four countries over my working life. I hope, if the conversation arises, that I may be anble to comment on them as well. But, to return to your point, I do know that .living in a place does not always give one expertise but Do feel that experience of a place is, in many ways, a great teacher if one is interested and observant.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:40 AM

Sorry Jim, can't accept that report. It's by that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:32 AM

"
Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!"
Occupied territories
Indeed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

Car-ramming Attack Reported Near Jerusalem; Assailant Shot Dead

None said hurt in car-ramming, hours after two Israelis were seriously wounded after a Palestinian police officer opened fire in IDF checkpoint.

Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM

"Because I was referring to recent history not 1948 before the IDF even existed in its present form"
You specifically targeted Benny Morris's "27 massacres" statement, claiming they dad been disputed - if they have where?
You have always claimed there have never been any massacres - don't say you are going to lie about this after the number of times you have said it?
"I never said that. It is a Morris quote not mine."
You have put it up twice in support of your arguments - it is your defence which makes it antisemitic - for crying out loud, stand by it.
Morris's reason for putting forward, considering the times he was writing about, is perfectly acceptable, yours is not.
Stop putting up irrelevant Morris quotes that are not being disputed, especially as you are still lying about his arguments being challenged, and have yet to give us examples.
""they didn't do it" is another of your fake quotes Jim."
It is an accurate paraphrase of your entire argument - I will continue to use it - nothing fake about it.
Stop digging
Jim Carroll
Israel's opposition to being tried and the International Criminal Court - are we taking this as read?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:34 AM

"much as the demonisation of the Jews "

I never said that. It is a Morris quote not mine.

the killers they helped to carry out the massacre and helped to escape, have ever faced trial - they even buried the bodies so the enormity of the massacre will never be known.

"they helped to carry out the massacre " is an unsubstantiated accusation that they deny. I put their side of the story.

"they even buried the bodies" is an unsubstantiated accusation that they deny. I put their side of the story.

Israel has never been tried for its war crimes and massacres

Perhaps it has not committed any. That is certainly what other decent democratic governments think. There is certainly no unequivocal evidence for it.

if you wish to defend Israel, come up with something better than "they didn't do it" -

"they didn't do it" is another of your fake quotes Jim.
I have never said such a thing. I just put their side of the argument.
What is your objection to both sides being heard?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:31 AM

I would never slander you, Keith. You're pretty good at digging your own holes. As for having anything to say on the conflict in question, well blow me down, I've never mentioned it before in any of my posts, have I?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:29 AM

Michael, if your love of UKIP is predicated simply on their wanting us out of Europe, I'm afraid you don't get UKIP at all and I suggest that you do a little digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:25 AM

Well, HiLo, I listened to some interviews on Radio 3 a couple of weeks ago with the actor Antony Sher who had lived in apartheid South Africa. You can probably get a podcast of the interviews. He expressed his extreme shame when he admitted that he didn't see the horrors of apartheid until he left the country. You were not in Israel as a Palestinian unless I'm seriously mistaken. The privileged in divided countries are insulated from the troubles. It's up to you to open your eyes now to what goes on. My uncles, returning from Rhodesia, refused to see it. Antony Sher opened his eyes. I don't know where you are with it. And please don't tell me that I had to live there. Most people who live there are fed a distorted view of what goes on, if they have to think about it at all. It's what governments do, even ours.

When I came to England in 1968, at 19, I looked around me and I didn't see any Jewish leading men in the classical theatre, so I thought it best to conceal my Jewishness. Also, I quickly became conscious of apartheid when I arrived here, and I didn't want to be known as a white South African. I was brought up in a very apolitical family. We were happy to enjoy the benefits of apartheid without questioning the system behind it. Reading about apartheid when I came to England was a terrible shock. So I lost the accent almost immediately, and if anyone asked me where I was from I would lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:25 AM

Then why have you persistently denied that Israel has never carried out massacres, and why did you claim that Benny Morris's statements had been disputed?

Because I was referring to recent history not 1948 before the IDF even existed in its present form.
Benny Morris has numerous critics and historians who disagree with him.

He says, ""True, I always voted Labor or Meretz or Sheli and in 1988 I refused to serve in the territories and was jailed for it, but I always doubted the intentions of the Palestinians. The events of Camp David and what followed in their wake turned the doubt into certainty. When the Palestinians rejected the proposal of [prime minister Ehud] Barak in July 2000 and the Clinton proposal in December 2000, I understood that they are unwilling to accept the two-state solution. They want it all: Lod and Acre and Jaffa."

Is that universally accepted Jim? Do you accept it?
What about,

"The bombing of the buses and restaurants really shook me. They made me understand the depth of the hatred for us. They made me understand that the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim hostility toward Jewish existence here is taking us to the brink of destruction.... Palestinian society is a very sick society. It should be treated the way we treat individuals who are serial killers. Maybe over the years the establishment of a Palestinian state will help in the healing process. But in the meantime, until the medicine is found, they have to be contained so that they will not succeed in murdering us.... Something like a cage has to be built for them. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:09 AM

"Jim, massacres were committed by both sides in 1948."
Then why have you persistently denied that Israel has never carried out massacres, and why did you claim that Benny Morris's statements had been disputed?
As I said, you lied on both counts - why did you attempt to undermine one of Israel's leading historians with untruths?
I am noth the slightest bit interested in what else Morris has to say - he said that Israel was guilty of 27 massacres - you dismissed this as having been disputed - a porky.
"much as the demonisation of the Jews "
You are now claiming critisism of Israel is demonising Jews - that is Antisemitic - the Jewish people are in no way responsible for the crimes of Israel, as you appear to be claiming, otherwise, why bring it up?
"I acknowledge now and have never denied that some Jews committed vile crimes at that time."
Bit convoluted - are you still saying that you have never claimed Jews committed foul crimes - please explain this unintelligible statement.
They have been protected from standing trial by a mass of US vetoes time after time
They refused to co-operate with the 2009 U.N. enquiry into the Gaza incursion, they have encouraged and participated in the setting up of a rigged "enquiry" into 2015 massacres which found them "not guilty".
They have opposed the International Criminal Court to the extent of demanding that it be closed.
After Sabra/Shatila, they set up an equally rigged enquiry and found themselves "not guily" for their part in the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - they, nor the killers they helped to carry out the massacre and helped to escape, have ever faced trial - they even buried the bodies so the enormity of the massacre will never be known.
Israel has never been tried for its war crimes and massacres and, if it has its way, (and if Donald Trump is elected) it never shall.
Nowe stop ducking and diving; if you wish to defend Israel, come up with something better than "they didn't do it" - what kind of a defence attorney are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:54 AM

but their rrefusal to stand trial and to bring the International crimes court crashing in flames is fairly incriminating - you have yet to address the consequences of that.

They have not refused to stand trial. They have never been asked to.
They have certainly not brought the ICC crashing in flames!!!

Statements like these show that you are incapable of being rational about anything to do with Israel.
You do have an irrational phobia that clouds your mind.

Israel has been co-operating with ICC over Gaza 2014, and the initial ICC report does not condemn them.