BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:13 AM

"That seems to be your answer to everything. Violence"
Only if the scales are loaded in his facvour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:10 AM

Quote from you Terribums "just let them get on with it and solve it by force of arms"

That seems to be your answer to everything. Violence.

Many of us who use the brains we were endowed with know that violence is not the answer. Killing people is not a solution,never has been and never will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 07:46 AM

"And where did I say anything like that Raggy?"
Your response has always been just that - "might is right" - on this and every similar subject
It's why I put up my last posting - let the poorly armed and equippen Arabs slog it out with a nuclear power - the "dad's" don't get any bigger than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 07:24 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - 25 Jan 16 - 05:34 AM

And where did I say anything like that Raggy? Oh, of course Raggy, this is just another case of putting your words in my mouth, no doubt this will be followed by some other baseless and unfounded allegation - your usual tactic.

It would appear Raggy that you actually KNOW S.F.A. about anything, going by your input to any discussion your only interest in this forum is to feed your compulsion to act as a TROLL.

Pointless waste of space that is what you are Raggy and a proven hypocrite to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 06:26 AM

Forgot to thank you for this
"Your "Palestinians" have had over 67 years to sort things out and have failed miserably so next time "it kicks off" down there in the Gaza Strip I would strongly recommend that nobody steps in, that no-one intercedes - just let them get on with it and solve it by force of arms - The Arabs default position and their preferred way of doing things according to their own clearly documented track record."
Poorly armed Arabs against a nuclear power equipped with drones, planes, tanks, heavy artillery... and all the armament their god can provide
Might is still right from our resident wannabe soldier - certainly politically - very right
Jim Carroll
See Kieth's still not waving but drowning

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:50 AM

Do you want to challenge any of the facts I've put up

Not facts Jim.
The state of Israel has a right to exist.
They have a right to defend themselves from attack.
That is all they are guilty of.

At least in your last post you acknowledge wrong on both sides.
I accept that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:42 AM

"Would that be the same Israel that the pan-Arabic nations swore to wipe out, to exterminate, to drive all the Jews into the sea"
You've said this before Terrytoon and I asked when did two wrongs make a right - didn't get a reply then, don't expect one now
The history of Israel has been one of driving out the Arabs to create a monotheistic state, one of expansionism, ongoing settlement on disputed territory, blockades, ghettoisation, refugee camps and ongoing persecution, terror, massacres.... using heavy artillery, chemicals,anti-personnel missiles, helicopters - the latest equipment.... and finally, a concerted effort to create an apartheid state.... first named as such by people living in Israel.
A bit unrealistic to expect people who have occupied the area for well over a thousand years to sit on their bums and do nothing.
Do you want to challenge any of the facts I've put up or will you stick with "they've only got themselves to blame?
Yep - thought so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:34 AM

Is that your answer to all problems Terrichocolate. My Dad's bigger than your Dad. My Dad will kick your Dad's head in.

Juvenile to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:26 AM

Jim, you put the Palestinian case but object to anyone giving Israel's side of the story.

Gaza 2014.
Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes.
It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's.

Beirut 1982.
An Arab militia carried out a reprisal massacre in the Sabra/Shatilla camp.
Other massacres also occurred in those camps.
All were committed by Arabs not Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:22 AM

Fact - according to "Jom the infallible":
"Israel has a history of massacres dating to the beginning - Benny Morris, leading Israeli historian lists 24 of them, others give more.
Yo claim he is disputed, but you refuse to tell us by whom, so we can only assume by you.
Massacres took place in the fifites, sixties seventies, 80s,,, in fact, up to the present day"

Ah yes Israel - fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties

Would that be the same Israel that the pan-Arabic nations swore to wipe out, to exterminate, to drive all the Jews into the sea (All those promises enshrined and carved in stone in the Hamas Charter)

How many times during the forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties ...... in fact, up to the present day have the Arabs chosen war over peace? How many times have they attacked Israel and deliberately targeted her civilian population as their first line of attack. Ever since it declared itself a sovereign and independent state Israel has been threatened - every nation has the right to defend itself from naked aggression and as far as Yasser Arafat's "Palestinians" are concerned that is all that Israel, Jordan and the Lebanon have done (Arafat's "Palestinians" have threatened the peace and stability of all three countries)

Your "Palestinians" have had over 67 years to sort things out and have failed miserably so next time "it kicks off" down there in the Gaza Strip I would strongly recommend that nobody steps in, that no-one intercedes - just let them get on with it and solve it by force of arms - The Arabs default position and their preferred way of doing things according to their own clearly documented track record.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:02 AM

"Jim, put your "facts" up one at a time unless you are afraid of seeing them knocked down one at a time."
You've had the facts - treat them as you like or don't - your choice - I've had what I want from you - anything further would be an icing on the cake, but I'm really not into sweet things too much.
Fact:
Israel has a history of massacres dating to the beginning - Benny Morris, leading Israeli historian lists 24 of them, others give more.
Yo claim he is disputed, but you refuse to tell us by whom, so we can only assume by you.
Massacres took place in the fifites, sixties seventies, 80s,,, in fact, up to the present day
Example)
"The Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, also known as the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre or Hebron massacre,[1] was a shooting massacre carried out by American-Israeli Baruch Goldstein, also a member of the far-right Israeli Kach movement. On February 25, 1994, Goldstein opened fire on a large number of Palestinian Muslims who had gathered to pray inside the Ibrahimi Mosque (also Mosque of Abraham), at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank. It took place on February 25, 1994, during the overlapping religious holidays of both Jewish Purim and Muslim Ramadan.[2][3] The attack left 29 people dead and 125 wounded.[4] Goldstein was only stopped after he was overpowered and beaten to death by survivors."
Wiki

Prisoners of war were shot py order of the officers during the Six Day War - you alone dispute thei, but refuse to point out why - though you claim to have seen the film

Sabra/Shatila facilitated by Israel - done and dusted
You refuse to defend your argument - the ones that have beren put up stand.

You claim Israel was not responsible for what happened in 2014 though no enquiry (other than the rigged one by Friends of Israel) has taken place and Israel is fighting to ascertain none takes place - you refuse to justify this.
We know how many people, including women and children - Isarel killed - we know how mnay hospitals, schools and public clinics and care homes were destroyed, we don;t know how many homes were destroyed because there were too many to count, certainly many thousands, we know that many of the homes, hospitals and other buildings were occupied (in one case, by order of the Israelis).... all this is common knowledge, yet Isreal refuses to stand trial and you continue to deny it.
Your overall claim is Israel did none of tehse things because they said so
You say the eye witnesses, human rights workers, medical workers, press, and other neutral observers' words are not to be trusted and instead, we should trust the fact that countries continue to do business with them (that lets Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, China, Russia, Syria...... and all the other human rights abusers and mass murderers off the hook).
As I said, I've got what I came for - you have shamelessly humiliated yourself again.
If you feel like answering any of these feel free - I realy do look forward to it.
Everything I claim has been backed by masses of evidence - all you have to offer is 'Israel says they didn't do it' and 'trust the politicians' - yheah, right!!
"Of course he fails to mention that these terrorists were killed while in the act of killing or trying to kill Jews"
No they were't, or if they were, nobody has ever claimed that they were Brucie
Show us your evidence otherwise stand with your friend as an appeasers of massacres and human rights abusers
Even Terrytoon has stayed away from this garbage - wisely
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM

Raggytash - 23 Jan 16 - 05:53 PM

Anything else to contribute "

Damn sight more than you Raggy.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:15 AM

Jim, your "more Israeli terrorism" link is about the "knife intifada."

Those killed had been trying and mostly succeeding to knife Jews.
Are Jews not allowed to defend themselves from random murder attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:08 AM

Jim, put your "facts" up one at a time unless you are afraid of seeing them knocked down one at a time.

You want to address the Six Day War, Sabra/Shatilla and Gaza conflicts in one post!
Each is worthy of a dedicated thread and each has had several already!!

"No, but no decent democratic government would ignore massacres and atrocities."
That#s what I said - politicians - what else are govvrnments made up of - rabbits???

They criticise settlements because that is a real issue.
They acknowledge no atrocities or massacres because there have been none.

Have the confidence in your claims to make one at a time.
What are you afraid of Jim?
Looking silly when each one is demolished?
Pathetic.

What is your biggest, strongest "fact"?
Put it up and let me respond if you you think it will stand.
Show some confidence in your case man.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:20 PM

It ain't me babe!

Very possibly - but if you ain't him, you're his clone!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:10 PM

Guest isn't The one with the delusional obsession.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 07:55 PM

Greg F, you seem to have a delusional obsession with this person named Brucie lol.

It ain't me babe!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:53 PM

sraeli forces have killed 65 Palestinians this month, including 14 children

Of course he fails to mention that these terrorists were killed while in the act of killing or trying to kill Jews, a minor detail to him and others biased against Jews as the media has been doing in scores of misleading reports. This is one example, there are many, many more:

Two Israeli men were fatally stabbed in Jerusalem's Old City on Saturday evening. The Palestinian attacker was shot dead by security forces after he opened fire on them. The wife of one of the victims and their two-year-old baby were lightly wounded.

How did the BBC initially report on the attack?

Palestinian shot dead after Jerusalem attack kills two

Notice how the main focus of the headline is the death of the Palestinian perpetrator who is "shot dead," effectively turning the terrorist into the victim.

And what is a "Jerusalem attack?" Cities don't attack people. In this case, the BBC cannot bring itself to apportion responsibility to a Palestinian. Nor does it state that the actual victims of the attack were Israeli Jews.

Disturbing, yes. Surprising, no. The BBC has a history of publishing headlines where Palestinian terrorists are sanitized to the point that inanimate objects such as bulldozers are held responsible for killing Israelis.

While the headline was eventually changed, presumably as a result of outrage on social media, it is appalling that such an initial response could have been published at all.

Honest Reporting

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:31 PM

Are these "unbiased" sources Jim .

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:05 PM

October 20115 - three months ago
sraeli forces have killed 65 Palestinians this month, including 14 children - Se
More Israeli terrorism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:52 PM

"Terrorism, Again"
TREATMENT OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN BY ISRAEL
I would say so - yes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 03:09 PM

BREAKING: In the last hour, a Palestinian shot at an Israeli vehicle near Dolev in the West Bank. The bullet missed the driver by inches.

Additionally, rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel. One landed in southern Israel. No injuries reported.

Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 02:55 PM

"What quotes do you want?"
Oh come ooooon Keith
Sorry Keith - you know ****** well what I am talking about -all the claims you have made about these subjects

" Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted .
Thanks for that - goes to the top[ of the list.
"No, but no decent democratic government would ignore massacres and atrocities."
That#s what I said - politicians - what else are govvrnments made up of - rabbits???
"The discussion becomes unmanageable trying to deal with several issues at once."
Only to a moron Keith - you may have a point there
Pisss off Keith - you have the facts - choose them at your leisure.
"From Haaretz:"
You want to join in with this Bruce or just put up meaningless quotes and sprint away again - Keith could do with a bit of help here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:59 PM

1   Quotes from the Six Days war programme?
What quotes do you want?
2   Who disputes Benny Morris?
About what?
3   Response to Sabra/Shatila facts
Which facts?
4   How do you know the 2014 massacres weren't massacres if nobody else does?
No decent democratic government has made such an accusation.
Can anyone show that Israel broke international law?

5   Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted .

Yes.

5(cont.)and the only ones to believe are politicians.
No, but no decent democratic government would ignore massacres and atrocities.

Are you ****** serious??? - a man who reads tomes of 1000 pages can only handle facts one at a time!!

The discussion becomes unmanageable trying to deal with several issues at once.

The facts were not put up for you - you are not interested in facts.

Yes I am, and will respond, but only one at a time please.
Or are you afraid of having them all knocked down one at a time?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:48 PM

From Haaretz:

"A Palestinian teen suspected of stabbing Dafna Meir to death in the settlement of Otniel last week was moved to carry out the attack by incitement on Palestinian television, the Shin Bet said Sunday.

According to the Shin Bet, the 15-year-old, a resident of the village of Beit Amra in the south Hebron Hills, was exposed to televised content which presented Israel as "the killer of Palestinian youngsters."

On the day of the attack, influenced by these messages, the teen decided to kill an Israeli Jew, said the Shin Bet. "The severe consequences of the attack show once more the seriousness of the threat posed by the Palestinian media's wild incitement against the State of Israel and Jews., which influences lone-wolf attackers to commit murder and carry out serious terror attacks," said the Shin Bet."

Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:47 AM

"I just responded to the accurate quote, ignoring the report name."
Twice actually - just checked
If you care to look, I pointedly asked you had you read "the Redmond Report" immediately prior to 'Guest' asking me for the link.
As I said - it doesn't matter - point made - "Wriggle, wriggle " as the man said.
You are now using this inconsequential point to avoid the real questions I put to you
1   Quotes from the Six Days war programme?
2   Who disputes Benny Morris?
3   Response to Sabra/Shatila facts
4   How do you know the 2014 massacres weren't massacres if nobody else does?
But first:
5   Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians
"Put up any fact for response you like, but one at a time please."
Are you ****** serious??? - a man who reads tomes of 1000 pages can only handle facts one at a time!!
You have been given the exact facts - all carefully linked and verified - respond to them in any way you wish.
You really do have to be joking!!
The facts were not put up for you - you are not interested in facts.
They were put up for the record here - the only way you come into any of this is to expose you for the dishonest massacre denier that you are.
You don't bother to respond , fine by me - double whammy - they stand as what they are - facts, and you are exposed for what you are - must be my birthday again!!
When will you get it into your head that your ongoing behaviour has excluded you from ever being taken seriously again?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:29 AM

Israel avoided prosecution through political and economic clout and influence.

Ah yes, the old antisemitic canard rears it's ugly head.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:17 AM

Wriggle, wriggle Keith. (par for the course) South Africa 22 for 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:07 AM

Jim, the last time you correctly named the report was 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM.
After that you always called it Redmond until someone asked you for a link to it here.

I just responded to the accurate quote, ignoring the report name.

And was facilitated by the Israeli army - you heaven't even bothered to respond too the facts of the massacre

Not on this thread, but many, many times before.
Put up any fact for response you like, but one at a time please.

Re 2014, I have explained how the law applies to the conflict.
I agree there are differing views, but you are equally adamant that they will be found guilty.
I am just putting Israel's version. Why do you object to both sides being heard?

A matter of recorded history Keith - even by Jewish historians
Disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:50 AM

Keith - I have indeed made the mistake in the past, on several occasions - which I why I deliberately chose the this time.
Throughout this thread I have carefully check every single statement I made to give you people no reason to trip me upon errors - the MacBride report was no different - I checked and rechecked what the report said and was fully aware who produced it - I've actually compiled a list of all the statements I've used in the Sabra/Shatila arguments for future use.
I deliberately overused it on this thread (14 times) before I corrected it - (worked like a charm - couldn't have hoped for a better result) - you responded to it "authoritatively" on 5 occasions.
Had it been a mistake it wouldn't have been a problem saying so - I've never seen the point in denying mistakes in a discussion, certainly none as trivial as this - unlike you, who yet to admit to one.
I asked a question - Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians
"Because I saw the same programme you did and have kept it for reference."
Can you give us the exact statement - the programme is still on line?
"Others dispute them"
Disputes Benny Morris - now that is interesting - can you link us to them please?
"Of course it was. It was committed by a local Arab militia."
And was facilitated by the Israeli army - you heaven't even bothered to respond too the facts of the massacre - perhaps you might care to do so now
"Of course it happened, but the war crimes were committed by Hamas.Israel complied with international law."
Do you have a hot-line to the U.N. - their enquiry is still underway, no announcement has ever been made and Israel is still struggling to keep it out of the Court - how on earth do you know when the rest of the world has no idea?
"Massacres and atrocities are just propaganda"
A matter of recorded history Keith - even by Jewish historians
(Perhaps you are only talking about living historians or those writing over the last 20 minutes?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:43 AM

Still on the line Keith, keep it up there's a good lad. South Africa are just starting their second innings.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:39 AM

More confusions by Jim.

Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM

" The UN MacBride Commission formed after the Sabra and Shatila massacre concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes."

Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM

"Israel's own report on Sabra/Shatila found itself indirectly responsible, as similar Israeli enquiries will find the present atrocities well withing international law, no doubt!
The independent Redmond enquiry found otherwise, but Israel avoided prosecution through political and economic clout and influence."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM

Yes of course you did Keith, you let pass an opportunity to put one over on Jim, yes of course you let it go. Ha Ha brilliant, please keep it up. Between you and the cricket it's turning into quite an interesting day.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM

If that is the case Keith why didn't you put him right back in March 2014. Keep floundering, like I said I'm a bit bored today.

"If it was the case.."

It was the case. Look it up. You have the date.
I let him call it what he wanted and just referred to the content.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:17 AM

Jim,
"He just got the name wrong."
How do yoy know this Keith?

Because you attributed the same quote to two different names in old threads.

You claim that the massacres during the Six Day Waar were individual actions - how do you know?

Because I saw the same programme you did and have kept it for reference.

You've just been given a list off them from the writings of one of the foremost Israeli historians - was he making them up?

Others dispute them.

You seemed to backed away from Sabra/Shatila - doesn't that count as a massacre

Of course it was. It was committed by a local Arab militia.

WE saw what happened in 2014 - all imagined?

Of course it happened, but the war crimes were committed by Hamas.
Israel complied with international law.

You have never responded to the fact that Israel is prepared to destroy the International Criminal Court in order not to appear before it.

Is that a fact?

You seem to adopt the attitude that the only unbiased people on the planet are those politicians who support Israel

They do not support Israel on everything. Settlements for instance.
Massacres and atrocities are just propaganda. You only ever look at one side and object when anyone puts Israel's case.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:14 AM

If that is the case Keith why didn't you put him right back in March 2014. Keep floundering, like I said I'm a bit bored today.

BTW Guest, yes you are quite correct but it is funny to watch Keith acting like a fish on a line.

As for the actual debate both the links provided by Keith and by Jim should tell you enough about this particular incident to allow you to make up your own mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:06 AM

Jim's act was quite deliberate to show how little you had read or knew about the subject.

Ridiculous.
He got the name of the report wrong two years ago.
The quote was genuine, but by Macbride not Redmond.

The chump decided to lie to try and save face.
He made up nothing.
He just got a name wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:04 AM

"He just got the name wrong."
How do yoy know this Keith?
The truth is, I have become very tired of your claims of having read something you obviously haven't - you complain about postings being "too long" yet you claim you can work your way through some of the most complicated books I have ever read on subjects that interest me.
Time after time you have been given links you don't obviously read, yet claim you have.
I thought I'd put it to the test.
I invented a name for a report we'd discussed which you claim to be aware of - you used the name I gave you to claim that what the author had written didn't condemn the Israelis role in the massacre.
Point made, I think - you had not even read the links you were given to what Redmond(sic)MacBride said about the massacre, yet you continued to present a distorted account of it to make your case.
You claim that the massacres during the Six Day Waar were individual actions - how do you know?
THat was never stated on the programme - on the contrary - it was described as being carried out on the orders of officers who first instructed that the prisoners be shot, then that graves should be dug by remaining prisoners, than that those who dug the graves should be shot - nothing "individual" about soldiers being ordered to shoot prisoners.
You'd really would find life much easier if you didn't keep making things up.
"but none do against massacres and atrocities because there are none."
You've just been given a list off them from the writings of one of the foremost Israeli historians - was he making them up?
You seemed to backed away from Sabra/Shatila - doesn't that count as a massacre
WE saw what happened in 2014 - all imagined?
You have never responded to the fact that Israel is prepared to destroy the International Criminal Court in order not to appear before it.
You seem to adopt the attitude that the only unbiased people on the planet are those politicians who support Israel - a bit of a contradiction in terms, doncha think?
Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians - it would be superb to be able to add this to your list of profound statements
You really have painted yourself into a corner here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:04 AM

Do you have anything useful to add to the discussion Raggytash or are you here just to make personal attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:11 AM

Jim's act was quite deliberate to show how little you had read or knew about the subject. As I said earlier he got you "bang to rights"

I'm sure I am not the only person much amused by that or your floundering now. Keep digging Keith, I've got a quiet day today and could do with a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:03 AM

Rag,
The Redmond report which YOU cited does in YOUR post does not exist. Jim Carroll invented it.

No. He lied about inventing it. He just got the name wrong.
I quoted him from an earlier thread (Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM) where he had used both right and wrong names for the report.
The quote was from the MacBride Report. He just sometimes called it Redmond.

Jim, as you say, some decent democratic countries speak out against the settlement policy, but none do against massacres and atrocities because there are none.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:37 AM

"you lot should have fallen silent years ago."
Give it a rest Terrytoon - say something on the subject or leave those who wish to to do so - we're all aware of your ability to change people's minds.
" I hate to appear to nag, but you still haven't 'got back' to me "
Sorry Mike - just got up
Wonder if it' better to take what I have to say off line - up to you.
"as happened in 20114 constitute massacres
Disputed."
Unfortune#ately not - the Israelis would rather close down the international court than allow their actions to be examined.
"Six Day War. In all wars war crimes are committed at individual level."
And were buried by the authorities who actually suppressed the interviews - the perpetrators were treated as heroes
All atrocities are committed by individuals - these were sanctioned by the State.
"The facts are disputed. Governments have access to the facts behind the propaganda"
The facts are that the "facts" take second place to economic and political interests every time - judging these matters on the, non-action and silence of the State and politicians (not one of them has come out and openly defended Israel - they have simply said nothing on the individual examples of atrocities) is insane - we saw the result of the murder and destruction daily - if it
was justified we have a right to know on what grounds.
Sometime this year, the leading "democracy" 'The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave' may well be governed by the dream team of Donald Trump and Sara Palin - look forward to that one!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:23 AM

Ha Ha Ha, unbelievable. The Redmond report which YOU cited does in YOUR post does not exist. Jim Carroll invented it. If you had known it was called something else why did you not pull him up. You have been caught out and shown to have little knowledge of this subject.

Before you shout I didn't quote it can I remind you (and others) of your post of 22 Jan: "It leaves it open as directly or indirectly responsible. It does not state that they were directly responsible, and Israel accepts indirect responsibility"

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 04:58 AM

Keith, You have been shown to have little knowledge of this subject thus your knee jerk response to the "Redmond" report which does not and never has existed.

It does exist. Jim just used the wrong name. I referred to the accurate quote he made from the actual report.

What "stands" Keith is that you have been presented with the running order of the Sabra Shatila massacre and Israel's facilitating it - you have no answer other than to scurry behind you "real democratic countries" gambit.

Yes I have.
I put Israel's version of events as you put the versions of its enemies.

Six Day War. In all wars war crimes are committed at individual level.
I defend no war crime.

don't need your "real democratic countries" - the facts (and your silence) speak for themselves.

The facts are disputed. Governments have access to the facts behind the propaganda.

as happened in 20114 constitute massacres
Disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:21 AM

This thread is descending to personal abuse rather than rational dispute. Not that that's anything new...!

In which connection, as it concerns me personally: it's next morning; so good morning, Jim. I hate to appear to nag, but you still haven't 'got back' to me (0147pm) with answers to any of the IMO pertinent questions I put to you re your denunciations in response to my post of yesterday 1009 am. If you don't reply soon, we shall have forgotten the exchange altogether & the moment will have passed.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 05:53 PM

Anything else to contribute terrichocolate .......................... no thought not. At least you haven't mentioned compass points or malt whiskey.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 05:20 PM

"Jim Carroll caught you out, hook, line and sinker. Although Jim and I have crossed swords on other subjects on this one he has got you "banged to rights"

Could I politely suggest that you refrain from further comment."

Raggy if being caught out hook-line-and-sinker constitutes grounds for refraining from further comment - you lot should have fallen silent years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 03:38 PM

"I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre."
That stands"
What "stands" Keith is that you have been presented with the running order of the Sabra Shatila massacre and Israel's facilitating it - you have no answer other than to scurry behind you "real democratic countries" gambit.
Israel has been several massacres throughout its existence.
Respected Jewish Historian, Benny Morris (look him up, if you don't know him ('m sure Mike does) wrote that "Jewish forces were responsible for 24 massacres during the war.[1] Aryeh Yizthaki attests to 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each.[6] Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period.[6] Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians took place, where no threat was posed to Yishuv or Israeli soldiers.[7]"
Apart from these, there were the massacres carried out by Israeli Freedom fighters hurling grenades into occupied homes - massacres one and all.
The Israeli soldiers who were interviewed during the Six day war described the massacres of Arab prisoners of war, followed by the massacres of those selected to bury them - you claimed to have seen the programme, so you are fully aware of this.
Sabra/Shatila is down to Israel - don't need your "real democratic countries" - the facts (and your silence) speak for themselves.
Bombing occupied schools, hospitals, old peoples centres and occupied homes, as happened in 20114 constitute massacres - the fact that Israel is moving heaven and earth to not be tried for these massacres doesn't make them any less massacres.
I'm sure you'll put all these down to "Anti-Israeli lies - not a problem for the rest of us - we're well used to it.
Must go - Casualty starts soon - hope that doesn't turn out to be yet another massacre!!
G'night all!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 02:51 PM

Keith, You have been shown to have little knowledge of this subject thus your knee jerk response to the "Redmond" report which does not and never has existed.

It has been clearly demonstrated to all that observe this thread that you have little, if anything, pertinent to contribute.

Jim Carroll caught you out, hook, line and sinker. Although Jim and I have crossed swords on other subjects on this one he has got you "banged to rights"

Could I politely suggest that you refrain from further comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 02:00 PM

I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre."
That stands.